Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
arthuro
BRFite
Posts: 627
Joined: 06 Sep 2008 13:35

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 13 Feb 2012 00:30

This say it all...

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby harbans » 13 Feb 2012 00:41

I wish the GOI had made a statement that the Rafale wins on both a combination of Technical and Pricing aspects. Sounds a bit lame and lazy GOI doling a statement that the Rafale was cheaper. I think the MRCA deal was conducted pretty well and had a large technical element in favor of the Rafale..

Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Gurneesh » 13 Feb 2012 00:53

@ harbansji
The only factor for selection can be cost as both EF and Rafale passed the technical trials. So saying that Rafale was finally selected over EF because of technical reasons also would IMHO be a slap in the face of the process of bringing two contenders to the next level.

RoyD
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 14
Joined: 07 Dec 2009 20:33
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby RoyD » 13 Feb 2012 01:55

Apologies if this pic has been posted earlier - just got curious about the 'missing' refulleing probe in Katrina in this pic. Any clues?

http://www.aereo.jor.br/2011/01/27/caca ... franceses/

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13099
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby negi » 13 Feb 2012 02:03

Ha ha those grainy B&W pages remind me of school days ; our exam question papers used to look like that. :mrgreen:

A potential 5 Mark question for nanhas "With help of a neat NWA diagram explain how Rafale performed in areas of 'air policing', 'counter air ops', 'ground attack' and 'Recce' ops ? " :twisted:

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16404
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 13 Feb 2012 02:59

Ha ha those grainy B&W pages remind me of school days ; our exam question papers used to look like that.


Pre-zerox, cyclostyled(sp?). Recall we had to get the typist next to a court type the resume, then to make copies use this ancient technique.

I wish the GOI had made a statement that the Rafale wins on both a combination of Technical and Pricing aspects. Sounds a bit lame and lazy GOI doling a statement that the Rafale was cheaper


The GoI/MoD went by the rules. Once the top two were selected on technical grounds, the field was leveled for the cost aspects. Even if the EF had won on technical points, they would have lost the entire deal on 'L1' basis.

_________________________________________________________

Also, the Swiss selection, was it not in comparison to the F-18s they FLY today? IF true, then a Rafale getting 6.8 vs. EF getting 6.2 is ONLY in relation to the F-18. It cannot mean that the 6.8 vs. 6.2 (as an example only) will have the same meaning for the Indian MMRCA. It provides some direction, BUT only in relation to a machine India does not posses.

abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby abhishek_sharma » 13 Feb 2012 03:13


sunnydee

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sunnydee » 13 Feb 2012 04:25

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-la ... e-17004875

Any reason why BAE has not been "officially notified" that Dassault has been selected as L1 Bidder ?

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rahul M » 13 Feb 2012 04:27

negi, you forgot 'in your own words'.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 13 Feb 2012 05:29

Will Brazil follow India's Rafale bet?
The Hindu - Oliver Stuenkel is Professor of International Relations at the Getulio Vargas Foundation, in São Paulo, Brazil

In a country where defence policy has traditionally not been a key aspect of overall foreign policy, seeing a former powerful Foreign Minister assume the Ministry of Defence is certain to raise some eyebrows. And so it happened when, in August 2011, President Dilma Rousseff chose Celso Amorim, the architect of Brazil's foreign policy under the Lula administration, to replace Nelson Jobim after the latter had openly questioned the capacity of several of his fellow cabinet members. While Jobim was generally respected by the generals, several leading members of the armed forces voiced their concern about Amorim, who conservatives often accuse of being an anti-American ideologue. Yet no matter how one thinks about Amorim, there is a good possibility that the appointment of such a visible personality (and today's Foreign Minister's former boss) will boost the role of defence in Brazil's foreign policy.

Open tender experience

This may partly explain why Amorim's recent trip to India six weeks prior to the BRICS Summit in New Delhi has gained more media attention in both Brazil and India than Jobim's India trip a year earlier. Military ties between India and Brazil are growing, and India uses Brazilian Embraer aircraft for indigenous airborne early warning and control systems. Yet, for several other reasons, the timing made the trip special: only days before, India had announced that it would buy 126 French-made Rafale combat aircraft in a $11-billion deal. In a somewhat unusual move, India agreed during Amorim's trip to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out the open tender evaluation to select the best aircraft. This matters greatly to Brazil, as it is currently involved in a similar selection process. Brazil would like to buy 36 fighter jets, and the Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG are still in the race. Just as in India, the process was mired in controversy given its large size and the significant political implications. After President Lula seemed to favour the Rafale in 2009, the Dilma administration put the deal on hold in an effort to reduce public spending.

The big question now is how the decision to have Brazil study documents about India's selection process will affect the tender process in Brazil. India's purchase certainly makes the Rafale seem less risky. A decision to follow India's would not only boost ties between Brazil and France, but it would make India and Brazil the only two countries other than France to boast the Rafale jet, thus creating further potential for stronger ties in the area of military technology.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 13 Feb 2012 05:31


Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3837
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Feb 2012 06:49

Rahul M wrote:negi, you forgot 'in your own words'.


Rahul da, you have insane memory wonlee - "in you own words" - classic! Boy that brought back some memories/smile and even some stomach churning :D :D

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 13 Feb 2012 09:57

Brazil "very likely" to choose French fighter jet: sources
Reuters

President Dilma Rousseff and her top advisers believe that Dassault Aviation's (AVMD.PA) bid to sell at least 36 Rafales offers the best terms among the three finalists, the sources told Reuters on condition of anonymity. The other two bidders are Boeing's (BA.N) F-18 and Saab's (SAABb.ST) Gripen. Rousseff has cast the deal as a watershed decision that will help mold Brazil's military and strategic alliances for the next few decades as it continues to establish itself as a leading economic power. The contract will have an initial value of about $4 billion but will likely be worth considerably more over time once maintenance and follow-on orders are included.

Rousseff previously had concerns about the Rafale because the jet had not found any buyers outside France. That raised doubts about whether Dassault would have the scale necessary to build the jets at a reasonable cost and maintain them over time. The sources said those concerns were assuaged when India announced on January 31 that it had entered exclusive talks to buy 126 Rafales. Brazilian Defense Minister Celso Amorim traveled to New Delhi last week to discuss the deal with Indian officials and examine documents related to Dassault's bid. "The India deal changed everything," one of the Brazilian sources said. "With India's decision, it's now very likely the Rafale will be the winner here."

Boeing's offer of technology has yet to be finalized but the sources said they believe it cannot compete with Dassault's bid because the United States has historically placed tight restrictions on the sale of military technology abroad. If confirmed, the deals would enhance France's partnerships with two of the world's biggest up-and-coming economic powers - Brazil and India. They could also provide a boost to President Nicolas Sarkozy, who has cast himself as a champion of French industry and an energetic salesman of the Rafale in particular as he faces a tough re-election fight this year.The sources said that unexpected developments, especially a breakdown in India's talks with Dassault, could still cause Rousseff to change her mind.

The F-18 is widely believed to be cheaper than the Rafale. Boeing recently confirmed that it will offer the F-18 to Brazil at the same per-unit price as during the last round of bidding in 2009, Reuters reported on Friday. Ultimately, though, Rousseff grew frustrated by what she perceived as Boeing's inability to improve the guarantees on the transfers, the officials said. Rousseff is a moderate leftist who has built her presidency around policies she believes will help Brazilian industries in areas from oil exploration to auto production. The officials said that Rousseff was also wary of a 2006 incident in which the United States blocked the sale of Embraer's Super Tucano military aircraft to Venezuela's leftist government. Washington had the power to veto the deal because Embraer's planes contained U.S. technology. In a separate incident in 2009, Embraer said it was temporarily blocked from selling commercial jets to Venezuela because they contained U.S. communications systems. The episodes raised doubts about whether Brazil would face similar restrictions in the future with the technology it received from Boeing as part of the F-18 bid. "Nobody's ever forgotten what happened with Venezuela," one official said.

Brazil's point man in the confrontation with the United States in both Embraer incidents was Amorim - he was Lula's foreign minister at the time and Rousseff appointed him as her defense minister in August. Despite her misgivings regarding Boeing, Rousseff also did not want to choose a jet that might not even be in production a decade into the future. In December, French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet warned that Dassault would stop production of the Rafale in 2021 if it did not win any export orders. Within days of India's announcement regarding talks for the Rafale, Amorim traveled to New Delhi to gauge the bid's terms and its likelihood of proceeding as planned. Amorim told the Times of India on Wednesday that Indian officials "promised to give us some documents ... such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours."

Brazil is not the only country that appears to be suddenly following India's lead. French newspaper La Tribune reported on February 2 that Dassault could soon seal a sale of at least 60 Rafale fighter jets to the United Arab Emirates, turning around a deal that also appeared to be a lost cause.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3837
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Feb 2012 10:36

Dassault should definitely give India a MASSIVE discount for turning its fortunes a total 360! Royalties for every sale made in Bra and UAE :twisted:

kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby kmkraoind » 13 Feb 2012 10:58

^^ If above report is true, i.e., Brazil and UAE also going for Rafale, will Dassult fund high thrust engine from its own pocket, because it has economics of scale to do so? and if it decides to go for uprated engine, will it be available in the 4-5 years.

George J
BRFite
Posts: 312
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby George J » 13 Feb 2012 10:58

sarabpal.s wrote:This video clear the doubt about two way datalink IMHO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8KOPzL ... ata_player


Please tell me this is "fan fiction" from MBDA. Su-27/30/30MK* users don't have radars/RWR/MAWS, they don't have CMDS?
And don't even get me started on the stealth drones............

Rakesh wrote:The AdA Rafale training center in Saint Dizier: CFER (Centre de Formation des Equipages Rafale)

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9089 ... ...........


These simulators are cute but they might be primitive if they don't play with each other. Massively multiplayer gaming is what the girls* in Bangaluru are developing. :twisted:
__________________________________
* like I have said before real developments in Indian defense research are being done by capable womenfolks while manly BR jingos are splitting hairs over AoA of 22 vs 24.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 13 Feb 2012 18:31

HAL prepares to manufacture Rafale combat jet in India
Deccan Chronicle

HAL has been preparing for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project in terms of allocation of funds and organisational changes needed to launch and deliver the targets on time. Three phases have been earmarked for HAL's goalposts in manufacturing this highly-sophisticated aircraft.

Deshmukh, who was earlier managing director of HAL's MiG complex at Nasik, said that over the next 10 years, the Rafale project should generate business approximating $4-5 billion. "It is a huge project for us," he observed.

He disclosed that HAL already had Memorandums of Understanding (MoUs) with Dassault and engine-maker Snecma to produce some of the designated parts. "HAL has been preparing for the MMRCA project in terms of allocation of funds and organizational changes needed to launch and deliver the MMRCA project targets on time."

Separate divisions have been planned for the aircraft and engine of the MMRCA at Bangalore, and two locations have been shortlisted within the HAL estate there for setting up the airframe and engine divisions.

Pre-planning activities with respect to conceptual design of plant layout for the aircraft and engine production units are under progress. Accessory production has been planned at HAL divisions at Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa (Uttar Pradesh).

Deshmukh described the Rafale as a state-of-the-art multi-role combat aircraft capable of a wide range of missions such as air defence, air superiority, close air support, air-to-ground precision strikes, interdiction, maritime roles and nuclear strikes. It has an integrated suite of avionics, electronic sensors, AESA Radar and active/passive counter measures.

"HAL is the designated lead production agency for the airframe, aero-engine and systems integration of the aircraft. Out of the 126 aircraft,, 18 aircraft will be directly supplied by Dassault Aviation and 108 aircraft will be built at HAL in three phases. In the next four years, the Rafale aircraft deliveries would commence from HAL to the Indian Air Force as per the agreed schedule. HAL envisages a business volume of about Rs.20,000 to Rs.25,000 crores ($4-5 billion) in the MMRCA project over the next 10 years."

Deshmukh said that the offset requirement of the MMRCA programme being 50 percent of the foreign exchange content, HAL is also looking forward to active participation in this industrial effort up to around 30 per cent of the offset value.

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 13 Feb 2012 19:08

Heartening to see some maturity in British response...finally..

Britain again raises the pitch for Typhoon for fighter deal
IBNLive

My understanding is that the preferred bidder decision has been made but final outcome has not been completely determined and we continue to believe that we have an attractive offer available", Browne said. Asked if Typhoon would lower the bid to win back the contract, he said: "That's a commercial decision which the people making the offer need to make". On some British MPs demanding an end to British aid to India after Typhoon failed to win the contract, Browne said he certainly does not believe that one should link development spending to contracts. "No, I don't", he responded when asked if he subscribed to the view of some British MPs who saw India's decision as a "snub" and failure of British diplomacy.

"The Indian government is completely free to decide who wins contract", Browne said, noting that "obviously, when there is a British bidder, we would like the British bidder to be successful". He termed Typhoon as the "strongest offer". Browne, however, stressed that the relationship between India and Britain is built on "much more solid foundations" and does not depend on a single contract, even a "big and important bid like this".

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 13 Feb 2012 19:20

MMRCA: Counter Point
IDSA COMMENT: Ramesh Phadke - Air Cmde (Retd) Ramesh Phadke was Advisor, Research at Institute for Defence Studies and Anaysis, New Delhi.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Surya » 13 Feb 2012 20:45

Dassault should definitely give India a MASSIVE discount for turning its fortunes a total 360! Royalties for every sale made in Bra and UAE


you mean 180?

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 14 Feb 2012 00:02

Nope.
He means 126 for India + Those for UAE + Brasil + Swiss

bhavin
BRFite
Posts: 101
Joined: 28 Sep 2005 23:04
Location: A point in three dimensional space

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby bhavin » 14 Feb 2012 00:12

koti wrote:Nope.
He means 126 for India + Those for UAE + Brasil + Swiss


I think Surya meant 180 degrees... A 360 degree turning in fortune would land Dassault right where it was before.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 14 Feb 2012 00:20

Yes.
Thanks

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 14 Feb 2012 05:20

Door Shut on Eurofighter As Dassault Prepares For Commercial Talks with Indian MoD
Defenseworld

Informed sources told Defenseworld.net that a high level team would arrive from France and interact with the Indian MoD's Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) on defining what the aircraft composition would be like and freezing the price.

Jaybhatt
BRFite
Posts: 172
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

The Limeys behave utterly odiously

Postby Jaybhatt » 14 Feb 2012 11:19

Badar : "I think we don't need to react that much. The notoriously purple British press is distinct from the Government/BAe/Cassidian. They can say what they want (as does ours). Holding relations hostage to them is pointless. I think we should give a little rope to the british premier as well, his posturing is for his own voters and not really directed at us.

We should look at them, enjoy a moment of schadenfreude and walk away. Their tamasha is not worth getting worked up over."

A confused and meandering statement. Not clear what you mean.

I agree the purple English press is the pits. However, their top political honchos, including their PM, David Cameron, have also been spouting nonsense. Specially Cameron, with his hyperbole about the EF being vastly superior to the Rafale. And many British politicians have also been insufferable, specially from the Tories. All this garbage about British aid to India and how "ungrateful" India is, came from the politicos as much as from the ratpacks in the press.

And don't forget the utterly crapulent statement from the English Air Chief after the Kalaikunda exercise (Indradhanush II) last year, saying that the RAF had "demolished" the IAF Su-30s in the exercise.

Many of my air warrior friends have told me that this singular gaffe cost the Limeys a lot of goodwill among our boys in blue.

Tamasha definitely, in old Blighty. But can't let them get away with their guttersnipe behaviour, can we ?

silod
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 14:20

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby silod » 14 Feb 2012 12:24

The Pioneer|February 14, 2012|New Delhi

Rafale may not be the best choice for IAF

http://www.dailypioneer.com/home/online ... r-iaf.html

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2012 12:30

if two people know each other through a long relationship and have decided to marry, all these 'well meaning elders' and 'friends n well-wishers' and 'buddhijibis' (each with their own agendas and prejudices) should back off and await the wedding invite :mrgreen:

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 14 Feb 2012 12:39

silod wrote:The Pioneer|February 14, 2012|New Delhi

Rafale may not be the best choice for IAF

http://www.dailypioneer.com/home/online ... r-iaf.html


Not worth a read.
Quote from the article.
The French firm beat its European, American and Russian rivals because it had bid the lowest price for supplying the fighter planes in its category.

:lol:

silod
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 41
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 14:20

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby silod » 14 Feb 2012 13:03

koti wrote:
silod wrote:The Pioneer|February 14, 2012|New Delhi

Rafale may not be the best choice for IAF

http://www.dailypioneer.com/home/online ... r-iaf.html


Not worth a read.
Quote from the article.
The French firm beat its European, American and Russian rivals because it had bid the lowest price for supplying the fighter planes in its category.

:lol:


I know and agree with you. But it is heartening to note that a lot of people other than BRFites are also taking a keen interest in MMRCA deal and voicing their opinions as per their own judgements.... One of the good things in living in a democratic country :rotfl:

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11308
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Feb 2012 13:31

koti wrote:
silod wrote:The Pioneer|February 14, 2012|New Delhi

Rafale may not be the best choice for IAF

http://www.dailypioneer.com/home/online ... r-iaf.html


Not worth a read.
Quote from the article.
The French firm beat its European, American and Russian rivals because it had bid the lowest price for supplying the fighter planes in its category.

:lol:


What d'ya know, per DDM Rafale is cheaper than Mig 35 and Gripen N/G. Damn I thought Jingos knew better :rotfl:

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36392
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 14 Feb 2012 18:21

be known that most jingoes are first made by such dork media... then they mature to become advanced jingoes... now more and more they read with applying their mind, then it is highly possible to turn jingoes to mangoes.

krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby krishnan » 14 Feb 2012 19:19

Boyz to Men

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 15 Feb 2012 05:54

Rafale going to sneak in on the Swiss order as well and spoil Gripens party??

Switzerland open to offers on Gripen jet deal
Reuters

Switzerland would consider alternatives to the 22 Gripen jets it has agreed to buy from Saab to replace older warplanes, its defence minister said on Tuesday. Flanked by his military chiefs of staff, Ueli Maurer told a news conference the government would be ready to look at any serious rival bids.

According to recent newspaper reports, Dassault put forward a counter offer to supply Switzerland with 18 Rafale jets for 2.7 billion Swiss francs instead of an original demand of 4 billion francs for 22 jets. Maurer said on Tuesday the government had not received any formal counter offers. "We've asked the French to give us a really concrete offer," he said. "If we really do get a lower offer, we'd be able to look at it."

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shukla » 15 Feb 2012 06:07

India Chose Rafale On Cost But Britain Demands Second Chance for Eurofighter
AIN

British officials involved in the Typhoon bid have distanced themselves from the ministerial comments, which some might interpret as sour grapes or even disrespectful to India’s right to make its own defense acquisition choices. They believe that Indian officials handling the MMRCA contest have been transparent throughout the process. They are hoping that the Indian defense ministry will debrief the Typhoon team on why the Rafale bid was preferred, although there is no legal obligation for it to do so. The Typhoon camp are fully aware that in a number of previous Indian defense acquisitions, the preferred bidder has failed to secure the final contract–raising the prospect of another twist in the MMRCA saga.

According to the rules established in the original MMRCA solicitation, no trade-off of performance against cost was allowed in the final stage of the evaluation, when the commercial bids were unsealed. No information has leaked on which of the two finalists scored more in the technical evaluation, which was extensive

In any case, neither finalist in the Indian contest was able to demonstrate the required active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. However, Team Rafale will have shown French commitment and tangible progress toward the introduction of an AESA, which is still not an unequivocal requirement of the four Eurofighter partners.

Before the contract is signed the following points need to be nailed down: the level of technology transfer for the 108 aircraft to be built in India; the coproduction plan; whether and how any government-furnished equipment is to be integrated; the guaranteed mean time between failure rates; and whether to choose an engineering support package or a performance-based logistics package. The life-cycle cost data supplied by the MMRCA contenders covered 6,000 hours of flying over 40 years. The 18 aircraft to be supplied in flyaway condition comprise 12 single- and six twin-seaters. They should be delivered within 48 months of the contract taking effect, with the complete weapons package. Of note, the MMRCA weapons and stores specification includes anti-radiation and anti-ship missiles, a reconnaissance pod and a buddy refueling pod. Neither the Rafale nor the Eurofighter has an anti-radiation missile, nor is one planned for either type. The Exocet anti-ship missile has already been integrated on the Rafale. The Typhoon bid included the Saab Rbs15 or the MBDA Marte ER anti-ship missile, neither of which are required by any of the Eurofighter partner nations. No reconnaissance or buddy refueling pod has yet been integrated on the Typhoon. The Thales Areos recce pod has already been fitted to the Rafale, which also already does buddy refueling.

The Indian production will comprise 74 single- and 34 twin-seaters. Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has been designated as the lead production agency for the airframe and engine, and as system integrator. The first deliveries are due four years after contract signing, in a three-phase transfer of production. HAL is expected to produce six aircraft in that first year, 10 in the second and the total of 108 by the seventh year of local production. The Indian government expects licensed production of engine accessories, avionics, radars, systems, role equipment and tooling. Some or all of this could be undertaken by privately owned Indian defense companies that have been chosen by the successful bidder. The MMRCA package also includes simulators and other training aids, and ground handling and support equipment.

In any event, the industrial benefits for Indian industry should multiply after the MMRCA enters service. Following the 24-month warranty period, the lifetime support and depot level maintenance must be provided by an Indian partner. “To ensure high aircraft availability, each operating base will have second-line facilities, including servicing of radar and avionics LRUs, electronic warfare equipment and hydraulics. An engine repair section and test bed will need to be set up,” said an Indian air force engineer. There will be three operating bases, each with two squadrons. Depot-level maintenance will benefit from technology transfer including metallic and composite structures, canopy, radome, castings and forgings, landing gear, engine including Fadec, turbine and compressor blades, wheels and brakes, hydraulics and fuel system, including in-flight fueling. Thales and its Indian partner, Samtel Display Systems (SDS), will be a major beneficiary of the Rafale’s selection. “The MMRCA has provided the opportunity for Thales to grow this into a bigger company. We can build a center of excellence for airborne technologies that can be sold for different platforms,” Puneet Kaura, executive director of SDS, told AIN.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16404
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2012 07:04

Very good amount of collective details.

Something tells me that the French can deliver, but EADS will not be able to. Seems to me that EADS is too fragmented. Enough to make a difference to not consider them. Imagine that reaction, in five years, if India wants something included and the rest do not. A British MP will riot

????

merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby merlin » 15 Feb 2012 13:24

18 flyaway within 48 months of contract signature with full weapons package (12 single seater, 6 twin seater)
108 produced by HAL in 7 years (74 single seater, 34 twin seater) - 6 in 1st year, 10 in 2nd year
3 operating bases with 2 squadrons each
24 month warranty period
6000 hours/40 years service life

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 15 Feb 2012 13:27

a very high proportion of 2 seaters - 33%

anyone know what the 2 seater rafale sacrifices to fit the 2nd pilot in? fuel?

ambala is already one designated base. I guess someplace in middle like rae bareilly could host the second and a third base like kalaikunda or bagdogra or hashimara in the east. bagdogra is probably best located for easy logistics via being a shared commerical airport to fly in and out for dassault reps.

member_22516
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 26
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_22516 » 15 Feb 2012 17:40

Rafale 2-seater sacrifices fuel, weight, and a bit of drag also. But operationnal performances are roughly the same as over Lybia we used to see formations of single and 2 seaters Raffys.
I think i would have gone for only 2-seaters for the first batch of 18 fly-away a/c, in order to train as max pilots as we can, the sooner as possible. (maybe 1 or 2 single for manufacturing follow-up for HAL as well as for IAF to see the differences in terms of maintenance and performances).
A 33% 2-seaters is the rate in France. It could be lower as situational awareness is very good and can be handled by a sole pilot.
French AF use to have mixed formations of 4 a/c, with 3 single and one 2-seater, the back-seater being the formation leader, mainly towards awacs, and global tactics.
So 25% for operational squadron, + 10 for permanent training (blue pilots) : you have the 33% ratio.
But 16 2-seaters would be helpful to start IAF intense training on this new beast.
(note that the back-seater has the same control panels and commands than the front, and that one can play a2a while the other can perform a2g targetting. The 2 are independant except for use of sensors: optronics, radar as long as there's no dual mode radar capable of a2a ranging while providing a2g map or scanning)

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kersi D » 15 Feb 2012 18:53

Singha wrote:if two people know each other through a long relationship and have decided to marry, all these 'well meaning elders' and 'friends n well-wishers' and 'buddhijibis' (each with their own agendas and prejudices) should back off and await the wedding invite :mrgreen:


They don't when they have vested interests. And here the vested interests are in US$ billions.

Kersi D
BRFite
Posts: 1383
Joined: 20 Sep 2000 11:31

Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kersi D » 15 Feb 2012 19:00

merlin wrote:3 operating bases with 2 squadrons each


Where ? Ambala ? Halwara ? Gwalior ? Kalaikunda ? Bhuj ?

Remember that a few years ago ACM Fali Major had said that all the air bases will be developed such that any aircraft can be based at any base.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], MSN [Bot] and 32 guests