Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23061 » 22 Mar 2012 23:55

devesh wrote:50,000 LGB kits? now, that would truly give some muscle to the firepower department. and precisely the reason it's unlikely to happen. remember the recent decision not to allow private cos in military ship building....the powers that be have some very strong handles in MoD establishment. such thoughts of even order 50,000 LGB's will be crushed if anyone comes up with it.


I wonder what our Babu's think wars are fought with :mrgreen: There should be a political think tank for military affairs to educate them.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby hnair » 23 Mar 2012 00:40

50,000 LGB kits looks a good number, if we still think in terms of a Soviet style power, but the upkeep (storage, diagnostics, batch defect rectification etc) and management of Blocks during the lifecycle can be taxing to our logistics. Have a few thousand local ones, but have openings to worldwide *reliable* suppliers, who can ramp up production, when needed. Even if a few of our centers get taken out, we can still get them shipped over.

keeping a few 1000 cruise missiles at operational readiness needs khan budget (and supply chain), not panda's, not our's.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kanson » 23 Mar 2012 10:01

^ In 2011


In 2006, Brahmos target was 500 units for exports and the same number for Indian forces. In Five years, numbers doubled.

What would be the situation in 2017? Particularly when different type of Cruise missiles, subsonic, supersonic, hypersonic variety from DRDO and Brahmos stable are ready for induction? Any number to think of? :mrgreen:

Parameters of War are changing day by day. So are the means of waging war.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby chackojoseph » 23 Mar 2012 10:40

Exports target doubled without exporting a single missile.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20453 » 23 Mar 2012 15:21

100K Sudharshan Kits should do the trick, would be nice to have a good number of these kits for 250, 500 and 1000 kg bombs, we also need,

would be nice to have 10k or so SDB for taking out all kinds of targets, i think with such a large order we can easily have it locally made, we would also need another 1500 CBU-97/105 SFW, this one would really help take out the mencaing threat of large volume of ground vehicles in chinese inventory and the WCMD-ER kit we should be able to deploy it from 40 miles enough to keep away from most point defence SAMs, Raffy flying very high, long range release, we should be able to really demotivate the chinese to fight, JDAM-ER could be usefull as well due to long range, i think a large enough order would allow us to have local manufacture.

We certainly need a large Nirbhay order 3K+ should do the trick. Large Shaurya order is also needed, we can take out long range over the horizon radars with this long range menacing missle. Along with Brahmos, the shaurya is the ideal first day missile, take out long range air defence radars, sea search radars.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby JohnTitor » 23 Mar 2012 16:37

Has anyone noticed this??

Def panel MP raises red flag on $20-bn Rafale deal

Defence minister AK Antony has asked his ministry to ascertain facts on the evaluation process that led to the emergence of the French Rafale as the lowest bidder for the $20-billion combat fighter deal, after a member of the standing committee of Parliament on defence raised a few red flags in a letter in February.

The member, MV Mysura Reddy, is a Telugu Desam Party MP in Rajya Sabha.

In his letter, Reddy has alleged irregularities in the evaluation process and demanded that Antony get the entire matter probed. The letter asks why the Rafale, which has not been bought by any other country, has been chosen for the Indian Air Force.

It also points to the fighter jet’s performance in the recent air campaign in Libya, saying “the Rafale failed in precision bombing”. Furthermore, it quotes from unspecified news reports about alleged irregularities.
“The ministry… must ensure… there has been no manipulation in the evaluation process,” the letter, dated February 27, goes on to say.
In his reply on February 29, Antony said: “I have asked the ministry to examine all the points raised by you.” He also marked Reddy’s letter to defence secretary Shashi Kant Sharma for getting the matter examined.

The ministry then sent the letter to Ranjan Kumar Ghosh, joint secretary (air), acquisitions manager, and the chairman of the contract negotiating committee (CNC). “As a member of the standing committee, I brought it to the knowledge of the defence minister as it was my patriotic responsibility”, Reddy told HT.

Antony has publicly said to ministry and defence officials that he would not hesitate in cancelling a deal if any irregularities were brought to his notice.

“We will examine all the points raised in the letter… but the work on CNC is not complete,” a senior defence ministry official told HT.

“All the same, the CNC is accountable if any lapses are found in the oversight stage.”

As of now, the CNC has not shared its findings on questions relating to the evaluation process with either the defence secretary or Antony.
The Rafale emerged as the lowest bidder in the deal for the supply of 126 fighters to the IAF on the basis of extensive trials and complex calculations, including unit cost, lifecycle cost and transfer of technology.

Eighteen fighters will be supplied from mid-2015 onwards and the rest will be manufactured in India over the next six years.


Dirty politics at the cost of national security. Surely this happens only in India. The army was screwed out of bofors guns and has not recovered since, I hope nothing like that happens here.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby shyamd » 23 Mar 2012 18:39

Some are saying AKA shuld have ignored this - but if you notice if there is ANY allgegation it is immediately investigated under orders of AKA. He told IAF chief MMRCA will be cancelled if ANY foul play is found by IAF.

He is too concerned about his image if you ask some. Some will say that it is good that he is readyto investigate any allegation of corruption but then delays eat into national security preparedness thanks to the conspiracy theorists.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sid » 23 Mar 2012 18:51

http://idrw.org/?p=9800

Minister A K Antony also implicitly opposed Saraswat’s proposal, suggesting DRDO discretion might contravene the requirement for transparency. “You must develop this collaboration in a transparent manner. Otherwise, midway, you will land in trouble. We will not tolerate any malpractices… otherwise, ultimately, we will have to cancel the collaboration. At every stage, you must see that we are proceeding as per correct procedure.”


above quote from article actually says a lot on whats going on in MOD. Some where he lost focus on his main job, i.e. defece of India.

I think his intentions are good, but national objectives should not be held hostage due to failure in some process!!

Right now to scuttle a deal, all it takes is to pay some minister to raise allegations in parliament or float news in Media.

Army's dwindling capabilities in arty is one prime example.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Nihat » 23 Mar 2012 19:54

All these two bit ministers and MP's seek is their few minutes of fame by bringing up stupid points like why are we the only buyer of rafale (knowing that it has preformed well in all foreign evaluations) or that libya bombing was a failure, without bothering to check real facts. I'm sure AKA realizes the importance of this deal and won't just go about canceling it on frivolous allegations by unaware MP's

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Mar 2012 20:41

he has taken a lifafa...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby abrahavt » 23 Mar 2012 21:51

I dont negotiations with Dassault have been put on hold or anything so relax.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 24 Mar 2012 00:51

What worries mean is AKA and his gov buddies have not emphatically thrashed the opposing corrupted politicians. Now, that is where this will muddy up.

If it is all clear, then there should be emphatic repliese from AKA, and rubbish the questions. It should not take real long time to settle the score. Else, the benefit of doubt in mango minds always goes to the corrupted person hiding behind one of his own corruption, and blowing whistles to avoid detection.

First of all, the news reports must be analyzed, and rubbished.. that would have indirectly rubbished allegation.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 24 Mar 2012 02:01

New video of dassault rafale manufacturing :



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db3w8j0woj0

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kartik » 24 Mar 2012 02:27

Lalmohan wrote:he has taken a lifafa...


Without even a speck of doubt.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 24 Mar 2012 03:54

arthuro wrote:New video of dassault rafale manufacturing :


Hooked.

It has that magical word "life-cycle". This is perhaps a made-for-India-PR video?

Downloaded the video so I can memorize the right pronunciations. Have to compensate for spelling.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 24 Mar 2012 08:13

"The Empire strikes back". The fist of the dirty tricks being allegedly used by BAe in order to derail the Rafale deal.Hints of a fresh onslaught from BAe have been seen in some aviation journals,where BAe execs have "not given up hope" in the event of the deal running into trouble.

"Mysura Redddy",a "prominent" Indian MP?! Which party does he lead?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... -deal.html

Manipulation claim over Indian Rafale jet deal
A leading Indian MP has accused government officials of "manipulation" in awarding a $20bn (£12.6bn) contract to buy France's Rafale jets instead of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

By Dean Nelson, New Delhi
23 Mar 2012


The selection of Dassault's Rafale over the Typhoon, in which BAe Systems has a large stake, caused anger in the government and among British MPs.

The Typhoon bid had been backed by intensive lobbying by the UK. Winning the contract was expected to bring $5bn and 2,000 new jobs to the UK.

British hopes were raised when the Typhoon performed best in trials but in January the Indian government announced the Rafale was its preferred bid.

Indian MP Mysura Reddy claimed in a letter to the defence minister the bids were manipulated to help the Rafale proposal win. He was also concerned by reports Rafales were outperformed by Typhoons in operations over Libya.

Defence Minister A.K. Anthony has ordered a review of the evaluation process following Mr Reddy's claims.
Related Articles

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 24 Mar 2012 09:38

That Rafale factory process including so many automation means ton of investment for desh.. which I think, this deal would initially and perhaps in the future only will assemble rather build parts. Mostly, I suspect the parts will be imported from France for a long time to come once the contract signed, and the reason, France is all gungo on go ahead, make our day!, and sign the contract for ToT!!!

I doubt, we will put that money in process automation, while our babooze bicker. But, I would liked to be proved wrong.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby mallikarjun » 24 Mar 2012 16:16

Not sure if it is posted here before, an awesome video of Rafale releasing diffrent wepons.
A must see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3kV-qs3iN8

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Eric Leiderman » 25 Mar 2012 00:48

The aircraft is designed with high tolerances parameters , making it extremely difficult to manafacture without automation.If the same were attempted to be done by hand or with much reduced automation, the results would not be repeatable. Effectively panels would not fit perfectly, holes would notline up etc.(These are just simplistic examples) Therefore jagudd would be at play getting it together and each aircraft would not be exactly the same. Causing nightmares from a maintanence point of view. The relability would also suffer.
So (hopefully) we will have to go in for most of the automation.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 25 Mar 2012 04:18

That means initial setup cost will double up.. now to bring a nice point here, how much of this automation can be used for LCA and AMCA, and interestingly PAKFA!.. the build quality needs to match raptors and JSF. It is a good investment, but not when our petty politicians point at hands is better than machine, and how many free hands are available to produce the same kind of crap will happen. This is the next thing to go by our corrupt politicians.. btw, did I just gave a new thought for a news report to catch on, and some politician taking up another round of his corruption hiding salvo against IAF's plan?

I want process maturity not for business entities first, but for our gov... we need to first have all buddas sent home by 65 retiring age. who wants these old corrupt people at helm? we are the original thinkers in many areas of society, and let this bring a change.

Zero tolerance on corrupt process and practice is must.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Eric Leiderman » 25 Mar 2012 06:28

To attempt using the same machines for multiple projects might be a bit of a stretch.
Just bringing one parameter that is easy to visualise, eg size. LCA , Raffy, FGFA
The machine will have to have the span to work at these different projects.
There will be scores of such parameters which might physically restrict this fm happening

However playing the devils advocate the latest Milling and CNC controlled machines have a lot of versitility, Japan and Germany are world leaders in these machines, However Uncle might not give them the go ahead for us to procure same. Japan supplied milling machines to the ex-USSR which helped them in getting the N.Subs props perfected.(Read this on one of the forums last year) I will not go on as it is now OT

We need production engineers to work out these possibilities. (Again the above 2 mentioned countries are tops in this branch of engineering)

Dassult must have written the softwear to run these machines and thats where the money is going to be made.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 25 Mar 2012 09:56

Perhaps that is the area DRDO must have a special wing and budgeted along with other precision engineering like turbines and Kaveri. home grown CNCs, Robotics, production engineering setups, and massive gigs for various components and parts. Start supplying cheap parts to the world, and establish the base at desh.

which will give the required impetus for the future. may be we are not that keen.

--

size matters, but certain component patterns remains the same. so, certain modifications can be considered in the design such that it is adjustable for various size.. example expanding in x,y,z axis etc.

now, it is in our ingenuity that we can invent something (not size ;) ) that fits for at least few if not all.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Vipul » 25 Mar 2012 22:50

Hind Aeronautics calls bids for new MMRCA complex.

Defence aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has invited bids to build a new design and manufacturing complex in Bangalore for MMRCA fighter planes.

The facility is estimated to cost Rs 360 crore and is to be completed two years from the award date.

The IAF is acquiring at least 126 MMRCAs (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to modernise its ageing and depleting fleet.The MiG-21 fighters are to be phased out from 2014. The Navy is also expected to top up the order.

The tender for the new production unit comes even as the Government's Contract Negotiation Committee is negotiating the cost of procuring the fourth-generation fighters with the finalist vendor, France's Dassault Aviation.

HAL plans to locate it at Challaghatta where it has large tracts of land. The integrated ‘green' factory complex will include hangars, runways and residential units.

The area is close to the old international airport, which was closed to commercial flights in May 2008. The HAL defence airport continues to operate military, VVIP, charter and select non-scheduled flights into and out of Bangalore.

The Ministry of Defence said in February this year that a Contract Negotiation Committee had started negotiations with the L1 MMRCA bidder, France's Dassault.

This was for its lower price over the European Eurofighter consortium for its Typhoon. Dassault — if and when an agreeable price is reached in the coming months and the contract is sealed — will directly supply 18 Rafale MMRCAs to the IAF.

HAL will build the remaining 108 aircraft. It will be its first export of Rafale, which has also been used in Afghanistan and Libya.

The MMRCA acquisition is said to be this century's largest and most keenly watched defence purchase contest. The order is estimated at a minimum of around Rs 50,000 crore ($10 billion)

Also in the race were Boeing IDS (F/A-18 Super Hornet); Lockheed Martin (F-16IN Super Viper); Sweden's Saab (JAS 39 Gripen) and Russia's RAC MiG (MiG-35).

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srai » 26 Mar 2012 06:39

arthuro wrote:New video of dassault rafale manufacturing :



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db3w8j0woj0


From this video, some key know-hows the Indian Aerospace industries will acquire from this deal:
  • Precision Manufacturing w/ automated techniques
  • Creation of public/private aerospace industrial partners (100+) in India
  • Life cycle cost design (ease of maintenance)
  • Advance Materials - high durable/quality parts

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SagarAg » 26 Mar 2012 10:53

The Complaint Against Rafale & The Govt's Response:
Image
Image
Source: LiveFist
Kya Chu****a hai ye..especially the ending paragraph in the complaint :evil:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kailash » 26 Mar 2012 12:57

An article in The Statesman and some story on an unnamed new channel. Is that all it takes to force an investigation?

Has this complaint been substantiated with credible evidence at all? How can AKA afford to go on a goose chase with every major deal - just because some foreign lobby injects suspicious news into media?

Waste of time/money and eventually lives.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Lalmohan » 26 Mar 2012 13:02

this guy has either been paid, or is expecting to get paid and floated a feeler...
what an idiot

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Skanhai » 26 Mar 2012 13:05

Pffffffffffffff here we go again... some one else could also suggest that mr Reddy took some change from Eurofighter to put a bomb under the Rafale deal so they have another chance...
This is the best choice accept it and move on!! It's a matter of national security...
:roll:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby suryag » 26 Mar 2012 13:44

About the Rafale or its capabilities Mysura Reddy and the one eyed molusc on ocean floor have the same awareness

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kailash » 26 Mar 2012 14:13

If these allegations turn out to be false, Mr Mysura Reddy should be charged with compromising the safety of this nation and hanged with a trial within 30 days. Anyone can throw a spanner into the gears - without worrying of consequences/responsibilities !

Just dreaming - even the likes of Kasab get to live and grow old in peace, till someone hijacks a flight and negotiates his release.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 26 Mar 2012 18:20

Shouldn't there be a law, that any complaints that cannot be proved by evidence will be not effect important decision for national security? of course irregularities should not be ignored, and kept parallel process to arms induction process.

Unless, the induction itself is a wrong, and Rafale is totally bad aircraft and in a big question?

Legally, all complaints must accompany some reasonable pointers to evidence, or basis of writing. If they can't, then it must be considered as a "pipe lined request to be" and may become a complaint in the future, and no such reply is required by MoD.

This nonsense must stop with this letter.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Lalmohan » 26 Mar 2012 18:27

mp's can (and should) raise questions to ministers. it is up to the minister to take things seriously or dismiss the request - with suitable accountability on the floor of the house...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kanson » 26 Mar 2012 18:29

When you guys are going to realize that this act of probe even for a sneeze is a cover to show this department is maintaining utmost honesty in deal making while the reality is while your guys attention are turned on/glued to such deals, money making happens in another way. At the same time, I can't say nothing 'happened' in this deal. Of course, like bofors gun, Raffy is a beautiful war machine - no debate there.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kanson » 26 Mar 2012 19:03

nash wrote:Ok what about Katya Zharkova plus size and russian also... :twisted:


Sorry, I missed your reply. Thanks for indulging. 8)


You know su-30 is a beautiful machine both in air as well as on ground. While other birds can dance, unlike others, its dance effuses elegance adding beauty to its attractiveness. After the release of JP movie, I often said the name Raptor is only apt for Su-30 & F-15. From long distance, as F-15 strolls down on tarmac, it looks perfectly like the Raptor shown in the movie. Su-30 is designed to beat F-15. But Su-30 can be equated to any beautiful bird. I still got the first picture of Su-30(not Su-30MKI) that landed on the Indian tarmac painted a golden hue by the Sun rays makes you believe in mythology. So I thought when the person with taste for figures and shapes named the bird after Rambha - a mythological queen of apsaras, which I initially thought that as the reason for the naming - it is an apt one. When I learned it is in fact after actress Rambha, i can't stop appreciating the finer taste of that person. :wink: :D

PAKFA is after product of Su-30 sent through hydraulic press. But it still retains rear part of Su-30. If you want to do justice to the finer taste of naming Su-30 as Rambha and carry that legacy to PAKFA then you have to find a match which retains Rambha's lower half profile with upper half profile similar to the 'flatter' profile of PAKFA, both synched together in perfect harmony to look as beautiful as PAKFA. Upper half profile could be that of, to quote a russian sounding name, Milla Jovovich. :D

At present, my entry for the contest is Ileana.

Sorry guys if you feel the topic is too hot....we are only discussing shapes, figures part of Geometry ----metry... :mrgreen:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 26 Mar 2012 19:15

Eurofighter tries to spoil the Indian MMRCA Rafale deal
K2P, March 25


It is not unexpected or unusual in the award of large Indian contracts that the “losing” bidder cries “foul” and claims that the evaluation process was manipulated. From my own experience in the Power industry it is “standard practice” for a losing bidder to enlist the aid of the media, politicians and the courts in crying foul and in trying to get an award to a competitor overturned. Again, from my own experience, such tactics can often delay awards but rarely succeed. Such “spoiling” can cause much rancour with the client and – more often than not – is counter-productive. In marketing and sales for large projects in India, “spoiling” a competitor’s award is rather easy but only delays matters and is not really worthwhile. The real sales skill lies in getting to be the lowest bidder and then beating off the “spoilers”.

Dassault’s Rafale was announced as being the lowest bidder beating the Eurofighter for the $20billion Indian MMRCA contract at the end of January. Now comes the cry of “possible foul” from a Member of the Upper House of Parliament (Rajya Sabha) who is also a member of Parliament’s standing Defence Committee. (The MP, MV Mysura Reddy, is a former member of the Congress Party who left to join the regional Telegu Desam party. He has lost 3 elections for Parliament but has been appointed by his party to the Upper House).

I am just surprised that it has taken the Eurofighter lobby so long to mobilise and find a sympathetic politician. Since the contract signature is expected in the new fiscal year (after April 2012) it could be a matter of timing for maximum “spoiling” effect. Journalists are probably being inundated with allegations about the “unfairness” of the various evaluations. No doubt the lobby is also considering court actions to try and delay the award to Dassault for the Rafale. While taking the Government to court can sometimes work to delay matters, it is a course that is fraught with the danger of being blacklisted and is very rarely successful. The Rafale sales team must also be pondering their tactics for beating off the spoilers (and they would be incompetent if they were not doing so). In India the Sales Process is not over until the first down-payment is received and even that is no guarantee that the contract will not be cancelled later. And of course the never-ending negotiations for contract claims start the moment the contract is signed.


http://ktwop.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/e ... #more-7944

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Mar 2012 21:32

SagarAg wrote:The Complaint Against Rafale & The Govt's Response:
Kya Chu****a hai ye..especially the ending paragraph in the complaint :evil:


Loved the underlined part - "no other country has purchased it wonlee, so why should we?" :shock: France having purchased about 200 does not count as a country I take it. And what about the Su-30 or MiG-29K when they were first purchased? Even the mfg country did not have these.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nachiket » 26 Mar 2012 21:46

Well if it wasn't Shri A.K. "Mr. Clean" Antony who was the one replying, I wouldn't have taken his response seriously. It sounds like usual bureaucratic-speak standard response.

OT: Like how Bernard Woolley explains in Yes Minister - In a bureaucratic std. response "The matter is under consideration" means "We have lost the file" and "The matter is under active consideration" means "We are trying to find it." :mrgreen:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Mar 2012 22:10

Yes M and Yes PM were probly the most clever and funny shows ever made. Don't think anything comes close. "But Primministah, I categorically assure you, the not so inconsiderable might of the entire civil service is behind this effort" :)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby jaladipc » 26 Mar 2012 22:19

this M.V.Mysura Reddy used to be a clown in the kangrezz party before he jumped into TDP. His personal recardo aint that good either.
Its amusing how the brits nitpicked a clown all the way from andhra to spoil the IAF and National interest.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Rahul Shukla » 26 Mar 2012 22:31

"I have asked the ministry to examine all the points raised by you."

I wish MR. Reddy a very looooong life, since examinations by babus can take an inordinate amount of time. Nothing is going to happen in response to his letter.


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