Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20453 » 22 Jan 2013 15:58

All this Ameerki bashing in not needed, we are afterall increasingly buying from them. CBU-105SFW, Harpoons, P-8Is, C-130Js, C-17s, AH-64 and counting...They remain the only country that would side with us openly if China decides to play mahjong and good luck trying to take on the panda without Unkil's help. Agreed the teens didn't farewell in aerial performance and I would to emphasize clearly on the aerial peformance. Ex Chief clearly mentioned the Ameerkis are way ahead in terms of avionics and weapons.

Rafale is no doubt a superb aircraft but only makes any sense with a proper Amreeki weapons package which will elevate it to a higher status of destructive performance. Moreover, my only complaint remains the undecided TOT package, why pay such a higher per unit and nearly double life cycle costs for the same level of tech you would get had we signed up for the SH International.

All this wasteful chatter about the SH being out dated is beyond silly since no other 4.5 gen aircraft is so quickly upgraded constantly, the APG-79 is already at V-3, the engines have been uprated over the years and EPE will happen eventually. With GE testing new weight reduction on the F414, a next gen version will be atleast 200kg lighter per engine, the aircraft already has great high aoa performance, can carry an incredible array of unkil's finest ground pounders. It will in the near future feature large panel displays, new jammers, increased sit awareness, stealth pods etc. It remains the most reliable fighter ever made, still have to encounter a single crash that was caused due to a technical failure. Not to mention the billions we would save just due to engine commonality with LCA mk-2.

All this BS attitude about we don't need the Amreekis is absolute hogwash when we need their clear green light for even a proper Puki bashing.

Indo-US relations do have pain points but like any relation we need to work at it for any clear path forward.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 22 Jan 2013 16:17

The SH international is a nice concept but don’t forget it is just a concept Septimus…Nothing remotely operational and not even ordered by the US navy!

Anyone can come with an aircraft and tout super upgrades like Boeing did…That’s pleasing for the teenager internet fanboy but not much so for a professional air-force who cannot be as easily bluffed as you are.

The thing is if the SH international was chosen the IAF would have to pay for the development of the SH international, it would have been the only customer for this version as the US navy is not interested and last but not least ToT would have been very problematic between US and India as you would always need the approval of the US congress. Nothing like that with the rafale: the French president says “yes” for ToT and then no risk of a parliamentary control.

Last but not least: the F18 SH international did not pass IAF technical evaluation...Even with the block 2 AESA variant and all the US weaponry…So you should rather try to rethink your position as it collides with the obvious reality.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby merlin » 22 Jan 2013 16:21

All the delusions of the assorted fanboys will be seriously tested and fail the test if/when the balloon goes up and India fights China and finds out that oops just like always we are alone and have no one to depend on than ourselves.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 22 Jan 2013 18:49

mahadevbhu wrote:Thats a RACIST remark Manish Sharma. Not kosher at all.


Wow, stop passing judgement's if you don't even understand the nature of the crime you are accusing someone of having committed which clearly isn't the case here. Had a prejudiced/abusive comment was made against caucasians then that would have been racism but there is nothing prejudiced/abusive in Manish's post. It's a bit harsh but definitely not racism.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sagar G » 22 Jan 2013 18:54

merlin wrote:All the delusions of the assorted fanboys will be seriously tested and fail the test if/when the balloon goes up and India fights China and finds out that oops just like always we are alone and have no one to depend on than ourselves.


Exactly, only a small nitpick Indian politicians would find that out our defence forces have a very clear head in this respect that's why they have had plans since ages to counter China but as usual out fattu political class thinks that our defence forces are an image of there's so since they cower when China is talked about hence our defence forces must also do the same. Fati ka juloos Nehru proves my point.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20453 » 22 Jan 2013 19:05

It is silly to assume SH International upgrades wont be used by USN, the oldest SH in USN inventory has clocked around 4.5k hours and still has quite a bit of life before MLU, a decision will soon come out in favor of the upgrades, the current and future evolution of threats will lean twards them. USN still operates a massive fleet of the SH and they will all be upgraded at one point or the other.

All future upgrades proposed to aircraft are concepts till the buyers show interest, apart from the budget considerations, most of the upgrades are certainly desirable for the USN. Boeing will field most of the upgrades starting 2016-17 whether we fund them or not. Your claim of no interest from USN is pure BS as always. your French PM claims TOT without full understanding of the word and Dassault claims full TOT without full understanding of the word and now here they are trying to explain what it really means to give full TOT, absurd.

http://www.janes.com/events/exhibitions ... ornet.aspx

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... et-376973/

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... es-372392/

Paying for the the develoment of the SH International would be a lot more fruitful since USN SHs will need MLU with in a few years and funding these upgrades will pay back. Wasn't it Dassault a few years ago begging for funding on certain of its upgrades?

I wouldn't be surpriced a few years from now when a massive scam is unveiled in regards to Rafale winning the deal. The whole deal stinks, always has. Sadly, IAF has focused purely on aerial performance, basically two factors, acceleration and turn rates. Unkil's avionics and weapons far surpassed their EU/Ruski counterparts. They picked two of the bird that could turn and accelerate faster and called it a day. Though a professional force, IAF is no stranger to blunders.

India has never been independent in its wars, we have always had support. Sure, it was our men fighting but the bullets came from else where. Whether its the millions of rounds of 5.56 ammo coming from Israel or Paveway kits during Kargil, we have always needed external help. Sure, if a war begins with China, we may be alone facing the brunt but we will have amreeki/ruski/Issy ammo, spares etc helping us in the fight. After being the largest importer of arms, ammo and spares it is very silly to read some of statements here.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Surya » 22 Jan 2013 19:18

I wouldn't be surpriced a few years from now when a massive scam is unveiled in regards to Rafale winning the deal. The whole deal stinks, always has. Sadly, IAF has focused purely on aerial performance, basically two factors, acceleration and turn rates. Unkil's avionics and weapons far surpassed their EU/Ruski counterparts. They picked two of the bird that could turn and accelerate faster and called it a day. :roll: Though a professional force, IAF is no stranger to blunders.



says the guy who wants to buy 100 C17s, 200 C 130s etc etc

yawnnnn

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby koti » 22 Jan 2013 21:06

Some time back Mod's warned of action if anyone discusses things relating to the losing aircraft. I'm creating a new thread for alternate discussions.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 22 Jan 2013 22:13

It is silly to assume SH International upgrades wont be used by USN, the oldest SH in USN inventory has clocked around 4.5k hours and still has quite a bit of life before MLU, a decision will soon come out in favor of the upgrades, the current and future evolution of threats will lean twards them. USN still operates a massive fleet of the SH and they will all be upgraded at one point or the other.


Why is it silly? Do you seriously think that the IAF was going to make a 20 billion$ gamble over a hypothetic US navy order? How naive.

And it is not as if the US navy was stuck with the F18SH….There is the stealthy F35C in the pipe and combined with increasing budget constraint the SH international upgrade possibility is very slim.

Conversely the rafale will be the only fighter jet remaining in French inventory whose production will run well into the 2020’s on French order alone… More than a decade after that F18SH production line would have closed. So in terms of “upgrade likelihood” the rafale has clearly an edge.

And again IAF technical evaluation has clearly eliminated the SH option despite its AESA radar and American weapon package. You should get real and stop dreaming.

As far as ToT is concerned issues have been worked out so that a contract signature still remains likely. You can’t blame both parties trying to get the best deal possible at the negotiation stage…That’s just normal business. What counts is what is in the final deal and if it is signed. At least you don’t have the threat of a parliamentary decision against ToT with France. It is the choice of the president only which makes much less possibility to backpedal on the agreement.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 22 Jan 2013 22:14

Actually, I have held on to my thoughts for some while now but can't hold them back anymore.

THE DECISION IS MADE! STOP FRETTING ABOUT IT!

1. IAF conducted a professional, transparent and objective evaluation. Till the US birds where in the fray, everybody agreed. Something changed after they were knocked out.
2. What IAF evaluated is not any different from what other AFs found. Consistently, all AFs have found that the Rafale and EF were the best performers. Have the humility to accept the results of these reputed airforces.
3. IAF knows how much delays it can handle and how to get the funds.

SO STOP YOUR ARMCHAIR ADVICE.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SagarAg » 22 Jan 2013 22:23

3. IAF knows how much delays it can handle and how to get the funds.

Really? Do IAF have some magic ball or a formula which tells them so. :lol:
Last edited by SagarAg on 22 Jan 2013 22:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 22 Jan 2013 22:24

AYE SIR!

but, a humble question onlee sir: why should not a common man question the time ti takes to gear up our forces?

just keeping the forces and requirements aside.

btw, it is the very same aam admi once gets into forces, becomes the force!
let the force be with him too.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 22 Jan 2013 22:34

THE DECISION IS MADE! STOP FRETTING ABOUT IT!


That is like asking mother nature to stop the seasons!

These topics are cyclical. They will go on even when the AMCA comes.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 22 Jan 2013 22:34

SaiK wrote:AYE SIR!

but, a humble question onlee sir: why should not a common man question the time ti takes to gear up our forces?

just keeping the forces and requirements aside.

btw, it is the very same aam admi once gets into forces, becomes the force!
let the force be with him too.

And what exactly is your question?
SagarAg wrote:
3. IAF knows how much delays it can handle and how to get the funds.

Really? Do IAF have some magic ball or a formula which tells them so. :lol:

They have 60 years of experience of handling MoF and MoD. Do you?

NRao wrote:
THE DECISION IS MADE! STOP FRETTING ABOUT IT!


That is like asking mother nature to stop the seasons!

These topics are cyclical. They will go on even when the AMCA comes.

:D

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SagarAg » 22 Jan 2013 22:52

indranilroy wrote:They have 60 years of experience of handling MoF and MoD. Do you?

Well if that is the case then....
MoF and MoD also have 60 years of handling IAF. Don't they?
The limited point I am trying to make here is that you can't predict how much delay one can handle.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 22 Jan 2013 23:19

SagarAg wrote:
indranilroy wrote:They have 60 years of experience of handling MoF and MoD. Do you?

Well if that is the case then....
MoF and MoD also have 60 years of handling IAF. Don't they?
The limited point I am trying to make here is that you can't predict how much delay one can handle.

As far as I know the MMRCA is now caught up with price negotiations with Dassault. Neither MoF, nor MoD is holding IAF back. And you think Dassault has more confidence in Reliance building a cutting edge war plane with ZERO experience? Reliance is just offering a sweeter cake for them. So, please let the people in charge do the right thing.

India is doing quite fine without the 200 MMRCA even today. There is a reason why they are upgrading the Mig-29, Mig-27, Mirages. If they wanted just any MMRCA, they could have got the Mirage-2000-5 line in 2002. They waited over a decade to get the latest plane. Reason being they can crush PAF today and they don't see a threat of a war with PLAAF for some time. But whenever they do, they want to have qualitative advantage. Hence they evaluated the best option that they could have.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SagarAg » 22 Jan 2013 23:48

indranilroy wrote:As far as I know the MMRCA is now caught up with price negotiations with Dassault. Neither MoF, nor MoD is holding IAF back. And you think Dassault has more confidence in Reliance building a cutting edge war plane with ZERO experience? Reliance is just offering a sweeter cake for them. So, please let the people in charge do the right thing.

India is doing quite fine without the 200 MMRCA even today. There is a reason why they are upgrading the Mig-29, Mig-27, Mirages. If they wanted just any MMRCA, they could have got the Mirage-2000-5 line in 2002. They waited over a decade to get the latest plane. Reason being they can crush PAF today and they don't see a threat of a war with PLAAF for some time. But whenever they do, they want to have qualitative advantage. Hence they evaluated the best option that they could have.


IAF is stretching MiG-21 just because LCA Tejas is still looong behind schedule. You see they had not planned this but circumstances led to. You are somewhat right in saying that IAF is becoming expert in handling things due to delays. But they also has a limit. They are upgrading Mirages for a whopping over the sky amount because of delays. I think they are already planning to upgrade Sukhois to Super Sukhois or have already started I dunno?

I was very happy when IAF chose Rafale as the winner of MMRCA competition. It was my favourite. But this delay in signing and sealing the deal is getting on my nerves. Now they have increased the number of aircraft. I am very sure the deal will not get signed at the end of this fiscal year which means another delay. According to your theory IAF must be having a plan to handle this. Right?
Maybe PAK-FA is the backup for this if it gets scrapped. I hope not.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby putnanja » 23 Jan 2013 00:09

Whether it is Rafale or anyone else, the delay is expected. the agreement to finally purchase 100 engines from GE for LCA has recently been finalized, after almost 1.5 years since the winner was announced. The MRCA bid with even greater cost implications, and higher offset requirements will take 2-3 years to fructify irrespective of which country it is from.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2013 01:09

SagarAg wrote:I was very happy when IAF chose Rafale as the winner of MMRCA competition. It was my favourite. But this delay in signing and sealing the deal is getting on my nerves. Now they have increased the number of aircraft. I am very sure the deal will not get signed at the end of this fiscal year which means another delay. According to your theory IAF must be having a plan to handle this. Right?
Maybe PAK-FA is the backup for this if it gets scrapped. I hope not.

Your expectation is misplaced. That is why you are getting frustrated. How did you expect a 20 billion dollar deal with complex Transfer of Technology to be signed anything within a year?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby GeorgeWelch » 23 Jan 2013 01:27

SagarAg wrote:Now they have increased the number of aircraft.


There has been no increase in the number of aircraft. There has always been an option for an additional 6x, it's just that now the French are pushing for that option to be exercised immediately.

SagarAg wrote:Consistently, all AFs have found that the Rafale and EF were the best performers. Have the humility to accept the results of these reputed airforces.


There are many fine arguments for the Rafale. That is not one of them. The Rafale lost EVERY SINGLE competition it was in until India.

Of course people can make excuses for them all, but while you can say it's not an argument against, it's certainly not an argument FOR Rafale.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2013 02:12

Losing could be because of price over performance.. perhaps India prefers performance over price, plus performance under tight conditions like say legal restrictions that denies certain ops, which may not be entirely on the product, but external attributes federated by GOTUS.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2013 02:16

GeorgeWelch wrote:
SagarAg wrote:Consistently, all AFs have found that the Rafale and EF were the best performers. Have the humility to accept the results of these reputed airforces.

There are many fine arguments for the Rafale. That is not one of them. The Rafale lost EVERY SINGLE competition it was in until India.
Of course people can make excuses for them all, but while you can say it's not an argument against, it's certainly not an argument FOR Rafale.

For the record, I regard the the F-16 and F-18 highly.

However, none of the other places where the Rafale 'lost', did it do so to F-16 or F-18. And all the places it lost, the only reason cited was price. Guess what Canada said about the F-35s? Does that make F-35 a bad airplane? It just means that Canada cannot afford the F-35.

Indians, Brazilians, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar determined that they can afford the Rafale.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2013 02:26

(predict:) After India sale, even pakis will find it affordable!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Gurinder P » 23 Jan 2013 02:55

indranilroy wrote:For the record, I regard the the F-16 and F-18 highly.

However, none of the other places where the Rafale 'lost', did it do so to F-16 or F-18. And all the places it lost, the only reason cited was price. Guess what Canada said about the F-35s? Does that make F-35 a bad airplane? It just means that Canada cannot afford the F-35.

Indians, Brazilians, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar determined that they can afford the Rafale.


F 35 is a bad plane, that's why the Parliament is up in arms about a single engine jet that needs to protect our nations Arctic Sovereignty from the big baaaad Russians. Plus, the government hasn't released the true figures regarding the cost of deploying this jet, but pundits predict that sixty something jets with maintenance and infrastructure will cost upwards of CAD$60 billion.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 23 Jan 2013 03:09

I think it is time to dump the F-35, opt for either the J-20 or J-31 and restart production of the F-22.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 23 Jan 2013 03:39

GeorgeWelch wrote:I really do want a strong India and it's why India's defense interests me so.


Don't push your luck with these ridiculous statements. Your government and your industry want our money, and that's it.

US Ambassador Richard Olson reaffirms the importance of a strong US-Pakistan security relationship

Ambassador Olson and the Air Chief Marshal reviewed the Pakistani F-16 program and visited the home of Pakistan’s F-16s at PAF Base Shahbaz.

“This visit, and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 program itself, represent concrete examples of US-Pakistan cooperation to support our shared security goals and to promote peace and stability in the region,” said Ambassador Olson.

In 2008, the PAF bought the advanced Block 52 model using their national funds, which provides all-weather day/night precision targeting capability.

The US Foreign Military Assistance program is helping the PAF upgrade its fleet of older F-16 aircraft to match these new capabilities. With their state-of-the-art ability to support Pakistan’s counter-terror efforts, these aircraft are the backbone of the PAF.


The only target of the PAF F-16s is the IAF. You know it and the whole world knows it. We should conclude that the security goal that the US shares with Pakistan is to threaten India's security.
Last edited by eklavya on 23 Jan 2013 04:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2013 03:51

I don't think so george welch was ridiculous. It was plain and simple marketing.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2013 05:51

Gurinder P wrote:
indranilroy wrote:For the record, I regard the the F-16 and F-18 highly.

However, none of the other places where the Rafale 'lost', did it do so to F-16 or F-18. And all the places it lost, the only reason cited was price. Guess what Canada said about the F-35s? Does that make F-35 a bad airplane? It just means that Canada cannot afford the F-35.

Indians, Brazilians, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar determined that they can afford the Rafale.


F 35 is a bad plane, that's why the Parliament is up in arms about a single engine jet that needs to protect our nations Arctic Sovereignty from the big baaaad Russians. Plus, the government hasn't released the true figures regarding the cost of deploying this jet, but pundits predict that sixty something jets with maintenance and infrastructure will cost upwards of CAD$60 billion.

You must be more knowledgeable than the fools at Lockheed Martin.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23364 » 23 Jan 2013 06:47

@Indranil Roy

I do not have enough military knowledge of the F-35 to proclaim its effectiveness vis-a-vis the Rafale.

But I am from the world of finance and i work for a Top 5 US Bank in the US and i can tell you for a fact that UAE, Kuwait and Qatar can pretty much afford anything they want, if they want it.

India & Brazil-Well, that is a different story. They can afford it, but they will break the bank buying it.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2013 07:08

Guru_Tat wrote:@Indranil Roy
I am from the world of finance and i work for a Top 5 US Bank in the US and i can tell you for a fact that UAE, Kuwait and Qatar can pretty much afford anything they want, if they want it.

India & Brazil-Well, that is a different story. They can afford it, but they will break the bank buying it.

I have a Ph.D. in high performance computing from a Top US university in US. So what can I say about computing at Indian labs?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2013 07:19

northern canada is not much diff from siberia. I figure buying the F-15E or PAKFA is best fit to canada's needs of sparse airbases, huge distances and bitter cold making supporting a lot of airframes tough. plus refuelers and some wedgetail type AWACS.
plus they need submarines.

unfortunately decades of prosperity and remote lack of any local threat has made their society soft and pleasure loving....will they sacrifice social services and nearly free education to any extent for defence - I doubt it. not with big brother sitting in alaska to help.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby PratikDas » 23 Jan 2013 07:24

<OT> With due admiration for all involved, it is a special moment to see Indranil riled up.

I didn't think it could happen. To be marked in the calendar onlee :mrgreen:</OT>

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2013 08:01

I have witnessed cross border fights between amrikkhans and khanadians, each naming calling from eskimos to be taken over by either khans as additional state. In essence, if khanada becomes 51st state, i would not be surprised. So, where is the real need?

Perhaps khanada may be a nice deployment market for LCA Mk3.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby GeorgeWelch » 23 Jan 2013 08:17

eklavya wrote:The only target of the PAF F-16s is the IAF. You know it and the whole world knows it.


While latest upgrades undeniably improve A2A ability, they also include critical A2G capability, namely it added adverse weather delivery for JDAM and the improved radar works better in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby andy B » 23 Jan 2013 08:57

GeorgeWelch wrote:
eklavya wrote:The only target of the PAF F-16s is the IAF. You know it and the whole world knows it.


While latest upgrades undeniably improve A2A ability, they also include critical A2G capability, namely it added adverse weather delivery for JDAM and the improved radar works better in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.


Boss not sure what your were exactly trying to say in this point but it merely adds to Eklavya's. Please do enlighten me on what the PAF is going to use "also include critical A2G capability, namely it added adverse weather delivery for JDAM and the improved radar works better in Ground Moving Target Indication mode" I mean the prime use of this will be against the Indian armed forces last time I checked the bunnies dont have dedicated armour etc that would need this capability.

Same goes for the P3C what exactly are you going to hunt with them the...bunnies riding in rubber dingies? :roll:
At the end of the day George, The USA decided to provide these systems to Porkis you cant just change that. By and far the most cutting edge systems that they can use against India are all Amercian systems only. Note: I am talking convential systems not green painted ding dongs.
Last edited by andy B on 23 Jan 2013 09:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20292 » 23 Jan 2013 09:19

Buyers of fighter planes today can be grouped by these categories;

1. Countries with a real threat perception and real danger from dangerous enemies and rivals.

India, Japan , the Arab states come under this group.

2. Countries with soft dangers around them

Brazil, Switzerland , Canada , many EU states are examples that come here.


Now.

The interesting facts are, that ;
a. In the only competition whos detailed results were OPEN to the rest of the world, the Swiss , they scored the Rafale > EF> Gripen. They also did a baseline comparison with the F 18, and found it to be , well, the baseline in terms of air defence, CAS, etc. etc. You can search and google for the report ,its online.

b. In the cases that the US has strong links with the country, and defence treaties, the states chose the US planes. eg. Japan, Canada.

c. The competitions where things were done solely technically, the Rafale came out as being THE BEST FIGHTER
examples are the Indian MMRCA (refer to Ashley Tellis decoding the MMRCA decision) , Swiss.

Now;

1. India does not have the stomach for a long war of attrition with China, over more than say 2 weeks. China has lost 5 million plus soldiers multiple times in the 20th century. India has not. China has had self inflicted famines and revolutions with millions of casualties. India has not.
So for sheer balls, India does not have the stomach to see the blood of a lot of its people spilled in a war.

2. The US has shown that ; if it has civilizational links with a country, it might come to aid them STRONGLY in war. Examples of the UK, Israel come to mind. Communism and the cold war is over, and there is no plan to contain the communist states of the world.

3. India does not have any plans to latch on to the Americans anytime soon. Indians on an individual basis have an affinity for both the UK and to a much larger extent, the US. On a governmental basis, India is highly self contained, and absorbed in its own small and big battles to be thinking strategically at the moment. Flaw? Folly? I don't know. This is how it is.

4. The US is not a TRUSTED friend. I have lived and many of the people here live in the US. In a land of individuals, its every man (and his gun) for himself. If the individuals can be so inconsiderate of past ties, and performance-in-the-moment being almost the only meter of relationship measurement, then how can the democratically elected government be a highly TRUSTED ally? [without civilizational links like the UK and Israel possess] Relationships are undeniably brittle in the US, people are undeniably self centered and in the whats-in-it-for-me mode, far more than the French are.

5. Indian-French ties have been historically tested and the French not come out wanting on this parameter. No such strength of Indo-US ties.

6. Based on my own interactions with Europeans and American people, I daresay that Indians will find more similiarity in their own relationship patterns with European states than the American state. It should follow that Indians and Americans will maintain a far more transactional relationship than strategic, which Indians find to be more comfortable doing with Russia and France.
Transactional nature of relationships means that the reliability and durability

based on 1-6 and on the points about the result of the fighter competitions a,b, c , I believe, as an Indian, that we have made the correct choice of plane in the Rafale, and in a correct choice of partner in the French.

srin
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Posts: 2033
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srin » 23 Jan 2013 11:31

mahadevbhu wrote:
1. India does not have the stomach for a long war of attrition with China, over more than say 2 weeks. China has lost 5 million plus soldiers multiple times in the 20th century. India has not. China has had self inflicted famines and revolutions with millions of casualties. India has not.
So for sheer balls, India does not have the stomach to see the blood of a lot of its people spilled in a war.


With due respect Sir, I think you are wrong on two counts:a) China of Mao isn't the China of today. You are overestimating the chinese willingness to die; b) India has bled, and is still bleeding - and country will support it. During/after kargil war, the army recruitment actually increased.

Offtopic on this thread, and we should continue to discuss this elsewhere ...

Indranil
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Indranil » 23 Jan 2013 11:50

PratikDas wrote:<OT> With due admiration for all involved, it is a special moment to see Indranil riled up.

I didn't think it could happen. To be marked in the calendar onlee :mrgreen:</OT>

:-o

Singha
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2013 12:14

only creatures with a low metabolic rate survive for long in BR.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 Jan 2013 13:48

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1398061#p1397975

Brando wrote:
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/226 ... ge-99.html

The PNC though stuck to its stand that it would not be a viable move for India and has finally convinced the US against such a payment. Two other important issues that were dealt with by the committee were, GE wanted India to sign the deal with one of its subsidiaries and not with it, citing various reasons and GE wanted India to agree to pay liabilities in case the IAF used aircraft powered by these engines to carry nuclear weapons and in case that crashed in Pakistan.


This really takes the cake!
Pakistan across the border is practicing nuclear bombing runs with their American made F16s and GE has the audacity to ask India to sign a "liability" clause to protect it in case Indian fighters crash in Pakistan with nuclear weapons ? What is Pakistan going to do exactly, sue GE after a nuclear war with India ?? I'm sure the PNC convinced them that in the event of a nuclear war they need not fear any liabilities from Pakistan as it would no longer exist to press any claims!

The Indian government's continued acceptance and tolerance of overt American military aid to Pakistan is something that is quite remarkable. India should make it clear that the continued sale of BVR missiles, F16s and other military equipment that emboldens Pakistan militarily against India is absolutely unacceptable to the Indian people as it should be to the American people who have been betrayed by Pakistan for decades!


georgewelch's ridiculous accusation against IAF that they sabotaged chances of SH & f16 by not giving them 3rd chance to improve their pathetic performance in Leh take off parameter.

Until the inferiority of teens wasn't announced, georgewelch and other american sales people didn't say anything against MMRCA, they were just arguing on the technical superiority of SH and 16 perhaps confident that like IAF is chosing 414 over ej200 and other deals , US birds will be given preference. Like Tellis' comment 'Bharat has chose a fighter over relationship.....'

Now sudden they see even if Rafale isn't inducted than ef2k is their with teens nowhere in sight, so dump the whole MMRCA with that americans can argue their jets are not inferior just MMRCA was faulty competition.


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