Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 27 Jan 2013 20:40

AmitG wrote:I thought the JF-17 bandar was a Mig-21, with Chinese makeup.


Its an upgraded MiG-21 in many respects. The PAF Program Manager recently admitted to Janes that it can be classified as between 3Gen and 4Gen.

However, I always wonder. We have had ToT for decades. Whether we bought MiG-21, 25, 27 or Mirage or Su-30MKI, we must have had ToT as part of the scope. Then why did it take so many years for us to develop an LCA that is still IOC and awaits FOC.


We never got TOT for MiG-25 or the Mirage 2000. We got TOT for the MiG-21 and Jaguar, and these were far far simpler aircraft than the LCA, which is streets ahead in terms of complexity. Its avionics, airframe et al are quite comparable to what we are getting in the MMRCA in several respects. Key difference, the MMRCA aircraft vendors have been making aircraft of their own design & with internal collaboration for many decades now. India started from a relatively limited industrial base and had to suffer sanctions as well. So the time taken is a given. In short, you will find these answers if you ask them in the "new members thread" as it has been addressed many times over.

I was reading somewhere that we had the designs of the Celsius Bofors guns...all the blue prints. But they were gathering dust for all this long. And we waited for 155mm howitzers for so long!


Now that boondoggle has a lot to do with politics (associated with the Bofors name), Army intransigence (why bother with old designs when imports were "around the corner" etc).

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sharma.abhinav » 27 Jan 2013 22:04

AmitG wrote:I thought the JF-17 bandar was a Mig-21, with Chinese makeup.

However, I always wonder. We have had ToT for decades. Whether we bought MiG-21, 25, 27 or Mirage or Su-30MKI, we must have had ToT as part of the scope. Then why did it take so many years for us to develop an LCA that is still IOC and awaits FOC.

I was reading somewhere that we had the designs of the Celsius Bofors guns...all the blue prints. But they were gathering dust for all this long. And we waited for 155mm howitzers for so long!


As far as JF-17 bandarr is concerned this isn't the thread to discuss about it or Tejas, yet this is what wikki says with respect to Mig-33 (Project 33):
"The designation MiG-33 has been associated with two different Mikoyan fighter designs. It was first employed for a single-engined, lightweight strike fighter similar in capabilities to the then-General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon. More formally known as "Project 33", development work began on this design about 1980, but it was canceled in 1986 as the result of changing Soviet Air Force requirements. However, in 1998 China purchased the design and test data from Russia to aid in expediting the development of the Chengdu JF-17/FC-1."

For Tejas and its development issues you must read more and lurk more on BRF and most of your queries will be answered. For Bofors guns go and ask government and OFB people they will answer it better. And yet none of this has any relation to MMRCA and or Rafale.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sancho » 28 Jan 2013 01:02

NRao wrote:[u]Boeing reportedly has a license to export the longer-range AGM-84K SLAM-ER


Thank you, but the article only says that Boeing has the licence to export it, not that it was offered to India, let alone that the US government would approve the sale. During MMRCA for example, Boeing officials stated, that a Growler light version of the F18SH could be sold to India and other potential export countries, but that was never approved by official sources either. While such a statement for SLAM-ER, or even a range limited JASSM was afaik never even made.
That's where the Europeans, Israelis and of course the Russians offer more and with less restrictions, especially when you want special capabilities or licence productions.

AmitG wrote:Over the long period, MMRCA had changed a lot and that is why single engine aircrafts competed with heavier twin engine ones!


Actually it was never a requirement to have single engine fighters only, even in the first MRCA competition we had light Gripen C/Ds against Mig 29SMTs. The twist came when Dassault had to remove the Mirage 2000 and add the Rafale, which was technically a whole different level and that's why EF, the Super Hornet and upgraded versions of the Gripen, F16 and the Mig came in.

Also, when you look at statements of IAF officials during the first competition and the second, it gets clear, that the operational requirements didn't changed much. They wanted a multi role fighter, that provides credible capabilities in A2A, A2G, or even recon and maritime attack roles.
The big changes however were made by MoD/GoI and mainly in regard to industrial advantages, like increase offsets and ToT, to get more in return for the Indian industry, for the money we spend and that totally was worth it. During the competition ALL vendors made JVs with Indian counterparts, or even opend subsidiaries in India, so we don't only benefit from the winning vendor/country, but from all participants.
The downside of course are the delays and shortfalls in IAFs squadron numbers, but that still can be balanced, if we order more than a single squadron from Dassault. I really hope we go for the optional fighters, but take them directly and not as a follow on order to HALs licence production.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Sancho » 28 Jan 2013 01:04

Dassault, Elbit to ring the BEL at Aero India | CMD Anil Kumar says focus on mature homegrown systems

Military technology major Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) is likely to ink a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Dassault, which recently won the contract for the delivery of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale fighter jets for India. Sources tell Express that the proposed MoU, likely to be signed during Aero India 2013, will be different from BEL’s already-existing JV with Thales. The MoU will get propelled when India’s Ministry of Defence signs the Rafale deal officially with Dassault. The MoU will enable BEL get onboard Rafale for the integration of the synthetic aperture radars (SAR) and electronic warfare (EW) suits, among others...


http://tarmak007.blogspot.de/2013/01/da ... india.html

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20453 » 28 Jan 2013 15:10

Karan M does make some good points in regards to the Raffy being selected. Though the SH International had some parts like the GE EPE and new large panel cockpit (Boeing's own initiative) already funded while some others like the MAWS, Internal IRST, Enclosed pods etc are not clear.

http://defense-update.com/20120305_elbi ... ology.html

However, looking at the workload, it shouldn't be much of a hefty funding requirement for the remaining few enhancements. Most if not all these upgrades will be ready by 2015-16 for fielding and testing. Fielding and testing these enhancements for unkil is childs play, SH is still one of the first contenders for almost all of unkil's latest weapons. The numbers of enhancements they have added over the years is truly magnificent.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2708307/posts

http://www.geaviation.com/press/militar ... 00505.html

The only thing that is suspicious to me is the TOT package that will finally come with Raffy. If it is 100% as initially claimed and there are no hiccups in such an agreement then all is well but if key tech like AESA and other avionics are not transferred, there are little added advantages of buying it at a much higher expense per unit in both acquisition and life cycle costs. With EU going deeper into economic crisis its the Raffy's french future MLUs and evolution that is worrisome. Hence we need full-tot will a possibility for independent MLU eventually which will allow us to upgrade it ourselves.

Raffy should however be fitted out with loads of SDBs, CLAW, CBU-105SFW. With Sudarsdhan and the new GPS glide bomb (needs a nice name 'Shubh-Karya' perhaps) coming into play, there is no such need to buy them elsewhere. Mini Brahmos, new anti radiation missile and perhaps the rumored Mini Nirbhay too would be more than enough to give panic attacks to our neighbors.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 28 Jan 2013 18:42

I don't think anyone of us know the relevant meaning of ToT in the case of the MMRCA.

What has to be supplied is what has been given in the RFP response. This response would have been evaluated separately and been a part of the top two evaluation.

I would be surprised if Dassault are going to hold classes on "How to design an AESA radar?". "How we designed the Rafale?" "metallurgical considerations in design" etc. The answer lies in their RFP response, based on our tender requirements, which I suspect, would have been vague.

I know about the early MiG21/23/27.

a) ToT had no design information
b) Schematics were available to even craft parts, from special alloys, on CnC machines installed in Nashik/Engine plant

This gave the likes of KH, the ability, to swap things out from the OEM, substitute, add RWR etc on our own.

Coming to the cost. Simple mathematics doesn't translate to a price per unit. Yopu have to consider:

a)Fly away cost
b)SKD
c)CKD
d)Spares
e)Training including simulators
f) Consultancy for integrating future advancements developed by us
g) Capital cost amortised over the # of aircraft built
h) budgetory contingency to take care of Forex loss, special requirements, cost of money etc.

And having heard from my barber whose sister-in-law's hubby's cousin ten times removed had said that all vendors, besides their products being evaluated in India, were visited at their home bases to evaluate their seriousness, progress (if any on paper commits), confidence level of their ability to deliver what was on the drawing board, its relevance to IAF, track record yada yada.

So, what we hear about the contract delays is not surprising. Either they are true, completely or partially, and maybe leaked and magnified by certain interested quarters.

Fingers crossed.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Jaybhatt » 31 Jan 2013 14:13

EVEN THE CANADIANS ARE LOOKING AT THE RAFALE - THEY WANT TO DITCH THE F-35

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... tres-.html

I wonder what the soprano-voiced ex-Armoured Corps fellow will now say. He was most keen and vociferous on peddling the F-35 on this Forum.

However, facts never deterred this fellow. He dexterously combines the twin roles of a PR honcho and a self-proclaimed defence analyst.

Here is my summary of the news report (not a Google exercise) :

"Because of the soaring costs of the F-35 which Canada ordered in 2010, Ottawa announced on Friday (the 25th January) that it would be contacting all other fighter manufacturers in order to obtain the requisite information on the capabilities of the fighters that are available.

Canada has taken yet another step towards putting its F-35 order on hold.... The Govt. is knocking on the doors of the other manufacturers of fighters, including those planes still on the drawing board.

On Friday, the Canadian government announced that it had contacted Boeing, Dassault, EADS, Lockhhed Martin and SAAB to collect detailed data on available fighter planes. Canada wants to replace its ageing fleet of CF-18 (Boeing) fighters. .....

At the beginning of the year, the newly-appointed Chief Executive of Dassault, Eric Trappier, said he was confident of the chances of the Rafale against its American rivals. "There is a lot at stake here. Canada is potentially the first country which could pose a question mark about the F-35. We cannot afford to be inactive in such a case".

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Jan 2013 16:35

Hee hee "Sarita jee surf ki kharidaari mein hi samajhdari hai"


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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Christopher Sidor » 02 Feb 2013 00:47

Jaybhatt wrote:EVEN THE CANADIANS ARE LOOKING AT THE RAFALE - THEY WANT TO DITCH THE F-35

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... tres-.html

I wonder what the soprano-voiced ex-Armoured Corps fellow will now say. He was most keen and vociferous on peddling the F-35 on this Forum.

However, facts never deterred this fellow. He dexterously combines the twin roles of a PR honcho and a self-proclaimed defence analyst.

Here is my summary of the news report (not a Google exercise) :

"Because of the soaring costs of the F-35 which Canada ordered in 2010, Ottawa announced on Friday (the 25th January) that it would be contacting all other fighter manufacturers in order to obtain the requisite information on the capabilities of the fighters that are available.

Canada has taken yet another step towards putting its F-35 order on hold.... The Govt. is knocking on the doors of the other manufacturers of fighters, including those planes still on the drawing board.

On Friday, the Canadian government announced that it had contacted Boeing, Dassault, EADS, Lockhhed Martin and SAAB to collect detailed data on available fighter planes. Canada wants to replace its ageing fleet of CF-18 (Boeing) fighters. .....

At the beginning of the year, the newly-appointed Chief Executive of Dassault, Eric Trappier, said he was confident of the chances of the Rafale against its American rivals. "There is a lot at stake here. Canada is potentially the first country which could pose a question mark about the F-35. We cannot afford to be inactive in such a case".

Let us assume that Canada decides to ditch a 5th gen fighter(F-35) for a 4th gen fighter (Rafael). In the next decade a fight breaks out in the western pacific involving PRC and its allies on one hand and America plus others on the other hand. Within a decade PRC will either have J-20/31 or PAK-FA flying in its air force and would have fielded an air-defense capable of blowing all the 4th generation fighters out of the sky.

With all due respect to hi-lo mix, what will be the point of saving money, if what one buys cannot penetrate the air defense of ones potential enemy?

Finally how come Canadian defense requirement have a bearing on what India needs? This is a red herring.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Jaybhatt » 02 Feb 2013 09:25

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Jaybhatt wrote:EVEN THE CANADIANS ARE LOOKING AT THE RAFALE - THEY WANT TO DITCH THE F-35

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... tres-.html

I wonder what the soprano-voiced ex-Armoured Corps fellow will now say. He was most keen and vociferous on peddling the F-35 on this Forum.

However, facts never deterred this fellow. He dexterously combines the twin roles of a PR honcho and a self-proclaimed defence analyst.

Here is my summary of the news report (not a Google exercise) :

"Because of the soaring costs of the F-35 which Canada ordered in 2010, Ottawa announced on Friday (the 25th January) that it would be contacting all other fighter manufacturers in order to obtain the requisite information on the capabilities of the fighters that are available.

Canada has taken yet another step towards putting its F-35 order on hold.... The Govt. is knocking on the doors of the other manufacturers of fighters, including those planes still on the drawing board.

On Friday, the Canadian government announced that it had contacted Boeing, Dassault, EADS, Lockhhed Martin and SAAB to collect detailed data on available fighter planes. Canada wants to replace its ageing fleet of CF-18 (Boeing) fighters. .....

At the beginning of the year, the newly-appointed Chief Executive of Dassault, Eric Trappier, said he was confident of the chances of the Rafale against its American rivals. "There is a lot at stake here. Canada is potentially the first country which could pose a question mark about the F-35. We cannot afford to be inactive in such a case".

Let us assume that Canada decides to ditch a 5th gen fighter(F-35) for a 4th gen fighter (Rafael). In the next decade a fight breaks out in the western pacific involving PRC and its allies on one hand and America plus others on the other hand. Within a decade PRC will either have J-20/31 or PAK-FA flying in its air force and would have fielded an air-defense capable of blowing all the 4th generation fighters out of the sky.

With all due respect to hi-lo mix, what will be the point of saving money, if what one buys cannot penetrate the air defense of ones potential enemy?

Finally how come Canadian defense requirement have a bearing on what India needs? This is a red herring.


This classification of the F-35 and the Rafale into "5th generation" and "4th generation" is your own concoction. Not to be taken as given or accurate.

Secondly, you don't even know the exact name of the French aircraft. "Rafael" is a Judeo-Christian first name ; the Dassault fighter is called the Rafale (meaning a gust of wind).

You cannot be taken seriously.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Christopher Sidor » 02 Feb 2013 16:17

^^^^
I sincerely apologize for my so spelling mistake. Having said that, I see that you have not refuted any of the points that I have raised. Is it because you do not go via reason or is it because of being closed minded.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Jaybhatt » 02 Feb 2013 19:55

Christopher Sidor wrote:^^^^
I sincerely apologize for my so spelling mistake. Having said that, I see that you have not refuted any of the points that I have raised. Is it because you do not go via reason or is it because of being closed minded.


There is nothing to refute in what you have written. Except your classification of the two planes in different generations. A point of view which will find few takers.

Therefore, I didn't want to waste my time.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Don » 02 Feb 2013 21:45

Jaybhatt wrote:EVEN THE CANADIANS ARE LOOKING AT THE RAFALE - THEY WANT TO DITCH THE F-35

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... tres-.html



http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ct-381683/


Reduced F-35 performance specifications may have significant operational impact

By: Dave Majumdar Washington DC

11:25 30 Jan 2013

...The Pentagon's decision to reduce the performance specifications for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will have a significant operational impact, a number of highly experienced fighter pilots consulted by Flightglobal concur. But the careful development of tactics and disciplined employment of the jet may be able to mitigate some of those shortcomings..


...The US Department of Defense's decision to relax the sustained turn performance of all three variants of the F-35 was revealed earlier this month in the Pentagon's Director of Operational Test and Evaluation 2012 report. Turn performance for the US Air Force's F-35A was reduced from 5.3 sustained g's to 4.6 sustained g's. The F-35B had its sustained g's cut from five to 4.5 g's, while the US Navy variant had its turn performance truncated from 5.1 to five sustained g's. Acceleration times from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.2 were extended by eight seconds, 16 seconds and 43 seconds for the A, B and C-models respectively. The baseline standard used for the comparison was a clean Lockheed F-16 Block 50 with two wingtip Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAMs. "What an embarrassment, and there will be obvious tactical implications. Having a maximum sustained turn performance of less than 5g is the equivalent of an [McDonnell Douglas] F-4 or an [Northrop] F-5," another highly experienced fighter pilot says. "[It's] certainly not anywhere near the performance of most fourth and fifth-generation aircraft."

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 02 Feb 2013 22:24

ouch!!!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 02 Feb 2013 22:57

Who gives a damn what the Canadians do.

Even the IAF is buying Rafale (hope I got that spelling right) as fillers. That is all they are.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 02 Feb 2013 22:58

And the Chinese steal F-35 secrets to make their own J-XX series!!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 02 Feb 2013 23:25

Sidor, the Americans have demonstrated they can do effective stealth shaping, and avionics, plus propulsion. But in the JSF, they compromised on aerodynamics, so they can't meet KPI for acceleration, STR. So they intend to depend on tactics to compensate.

For the J-20, J-31, the Chinese have not demonstrated anything yet in terms of real cutting edge stuff. All they have is a flying demonstrator. Going by the J-10 experience, it will be functional but nothing earth shattering. The J-10 can currently be outfought by upgraded Vipers and Eagles, upgraded Flankers, Fulcrums and even Mirage 2000s. Judging by its overall shaping, it may have decent stealth with RAM, but will fall behind in terms of aero performance (China still lags in propulsion) and avionics. The Chinese are in talks with Russia for the Su-35. This upgraded Flanker has technology ahead of what they currently are developing, and says it all.

In contrast, the French design approach has been to make a low observable (not VLO like the JSF) with suitable electronic aids (the Spectra) to assist in its A2A and A2S roles, without compromising on two key attributes - aircraft aerodynamics (which means it has excellent turn rates, acceleration etc) and range. Plus, the French excellence in integrated avionics is long known.

You can read about what a superb platform the Rafale is here:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-334383/

Net, in WVR this plane is very likely to be superior to the J-20/J-31. Both sides will have difficulty in BVR with RF acquisition and RF guided missiles. The Indian side will have access to L Band Phalcons & S-Band AEW&C, plus long range aerostats, if these are used judiciously, the so called Chinese stealth/quasi-stealth aircraft can still be picked up and tracked. Once that is done, note that the Rafale has the IR guided BVR Mica, a unique missile of its class, which will allow the Rafale to even target RF VLO aircraft.

Also, in terms of strike - the Rafale is currently without peer as an integrated platform. Read the test report to understand why.

Its only weakness are the number of weapons integrated, which can be addressed and is not a deal breaker. To take out S-3XX type platforms, the Rafale + LRCMs is perfect.

In short, the IAF is likely to be pleased as punch when the Rafale enters service. It will be a huge force multiplier and allow IAF squadrons to dominate the battlefield.

A single Rafale squadron can do everything that in the past required Mirage 2000s with MiG-29 escort or MiG-25s with Mirage escort or Jaguars with MiG-21 escort etc could do.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 02 Feb 2013 23:42

^^^^^^^^^
Hi Karan, I appreciate the way you explain things. Very nice.
One can still have other opinion but it makes a good discussion. :D

Karan M wrote:Also, in terms of strike - the Rafale is currently without peer.

Agreed

Read somewhere and based on that would just wish that Rafale RCS and AESA is like the Typhoon. Any improvement expected on that front in the future or is it fine for the current and future needs.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 03 Feb 2013 00:00

NRao wrote:Who gives a damn what the Canadians do.

Even the IAF is buying Rafale (hope I got that spelling right) as fillers. That is all they are.


Given how closely allied the Canadians are to the US, the Canadian rejection of F-35 is a very significant development. I am sure every country that has ordered the F-35 and is considerng the aircraft would have taken careful note of the Canadian move.

Rafale will be the most capable combat a/c in the IAF for the next 20 years.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 03 Feb 2013 00:08

dhiraj wrote:Read somewhere and based on that would just wish that Rafale RCS and AESA is like the Typhoon. Any improvement expected on that front in the future or is it fine for the current and future needs.


Rafale has an AESA, Typhoon does not. I heard Rafale RCS is lower than Typhoon. Anyway, Rafale costs less than Typhoon, so it won!

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archiv ... 51379.html
It is very difficult to assess the Rafale's RCS due to the high level of classification, but sources have unofficially said that Rafale has a much lower RCS than the Typhoon, a fighter of roughly the same size.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 03 Feb 2013 00:23

eklavya wrote:Rafale has an AESA, Typhoon does not. I heard Rafale RCS is lower than Typhoon. Anyway, Rafale costs less than Typhoon, so it won!


Agreed ...and Rafale is a fantastic and superb fighter and my fav.
I was talking about the upcoming CAESAR radar for typhoon. anyway forget it for now until it is integrated else it will lead to another discussion.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 03 Feb 2013 00:26

eklavya wrote:
NRao wrote:Who gives a damn what the Canadians do.

Even the IAF is buying Rafale (hope I got that spelling right) as fillers. That is all they are.


Given how closely allied the Canadians are to the US, the Canadian rejection of F-35 is a very significant development. I am sure every country that has ordered the F-35 and is considerng the aircraft would have taken careful note of the Canadian move.

Rafale will be the most capable combat a/c in the IAF for the next 20 years.


1) What does that (alignment - or the previous post of Canadian decision) have to do with India/IAF? (All this discussion of the Canadian decision should go in the International thread and not in this thread)

2) FGFA/AMCA should have a leg up on the Rafale. For sure the AMCA. I would not be surprised at all if the French do everything to pull the AMCA down as much as possible (not a knock on them - just good business)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 03 Feb 2013 00:29

dhiraj wrote:^^^^^^^^^
Hi Karan, I appreciate the way you explain things. Very nice.
One can still have other opinion but it makes a good discussion. :D


Thank you for your kind words.

Karan M wrote:Also, in terms of strike - the Rafale is currently without peer.

Agreed

Read somewhere and based on that would just wish that Rafale RCS and AESA is like the Typhoon. Any improvement expected on that front in the future or is it fine for the current and future needs.


Thing is that a neutral assessment often puts both Eurocanards on par. The claims that each aircraft's RCS is lower or better must be taken with a pinch of salt. Both France and the Eurofighter consortium nations had several classified programs underway for stealth.
Coming to AESA, the size of the Typhoon nose is undoubtedly greater, but it bears remarking that when the EF, Rafale were evaluated by the Swiss, the Rafale thoroughly beat the other two in terms of system performance, so it was a mature system rated well by evaluators.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/81390363/Swis ... the-Rafale

Note, Indian Rafales will come with a HMS, the only area the Swiss wanted a solution.

The radar was rated ahead of the Captor on the EF. Which just shows how the PR of the EF side, which consistently rubbished the RBE-2 on the Rafale needs to be taken with salt. Now, the Captor may have improved significantly, but the RBE-2AA will also arrive, so it will be a credible and powerful asset. Page 12-13 show details with Rafale scoring ahead of EF on detection, acquisition and identification. In engagement, EF scores ahead - presumably because RF Mica is lesser in range than RF AMRAAMs.

Bottomline, both EF and Rafale are excellent aircraft, and the IAF evaluation chose the best two.

The big point with the Rafale is that the IAF will get an effective weapons platform from day 1. The number of modifications or requests for actions to the OEM, should be relatively limited, making this a potent, multirole asset. By deploying to Afghanistan, making a common marine variant and also now to Libya, the Rafale team has had ample experience and opportunity to make this plane a reliable, consistent and sophisticated performer across many operational conditions. Which is what the IAF needs.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 03 Feb 2013 01:05

Given an agreed role say 'share tech' in the next generation AMCA or FGFA, how much of Rafale (toted tech) made available through this deal would apply?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 03 Feb 2013 01:12

Rafale strikes in Mali - successful.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/world ... ed=2&_r=1&

The French attacks on Gao, an insurgent stronghold in the north, were welcomed by Abdheramane Oumarou, a local counselor reached late Sunday after a day of French airstrikes.

“We are in the best of all possible worlds,” he said. “The planes have been circling Gao since 5 this morning. All of the sites they targeted, they hit. The airport. The warehouses, they destroyed them. These were all sites occupied by the Islamists, and they have been totally destroyed.”

“The Islamists are in hiding. There were many dead,” he added. For the first time since the insurgents overran the town last year, “the population of Gao will sleep soundly, and will even snore.”

In Douentza, a town south of Gao but still inside Islamist-held territory, French strikes have driven the Islamists “into the bush,” said the parliamentary deputy from the region, Fatoumata Dicko. “We are breathing much easier now,” she said.


And:
http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2013/01/m ... rikes.html

4 Rafale left the Saint Dizier Air Base saturday-Sunday night to conduct their first strikes over the cities of Gao and Kidal. They were carrying their full load of 6 AASM or 6 GBU-12 as well as 3 2000L fuel tanks and Damocles pod.

As per the video footage below, showing the Rafale landing at N'Jamena, Tchad, after their mission, 21 bombs/missiles were probably fired during the attacks : One of the Rafale didn't fire 3 of its 6 AASM. It is also worth noting that 3 of the Rafale were two seaters but with only one pilot onboard.

According to witnesses, several islamist key positions (training camps, amunition depots) were hit by the Rafale strike.


Also see: http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/p/rafale- ... d-out.html

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 03 Feb 2013 01:26

NRao wrote:What does that (alignment - or the previous post of Canadian decision) have to do with India/IAF? (All this discussion of the Canadian decision should go in the International thread and not in this thread)


I remember all the F-35 stories in the Indian press after the F-16IN and F-18E/F failed to get shortlisted. I think its very interesting that prospective F-35 customers are having second thoughts. I expect the Canadians to select another US aircraft for political purposes; if they choose the Rafale, they might get invaded by the US.

NRao wrote:2) FGFA/AMCA should have a leg up on the Rafale. For sure the AMCA.


For sure ... 2035 is just round the corner :)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SaiK » 03 Feb 2013 01:50

USA inavades Canada. Make it so! Go for Rafale just for this to happen. :twisted: .

jokes aside, I think even in the imaginary world this would considered insane.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 03 Feb 2013 02:26

eklavya wrote:I remember all the F-35 stories in the Indian press after the F-16IN and F-18E/F failed to get shortlisted. I think its very interesting that prospective F-35 customers are having second thoughts. I expect the Canadians to select another US aircraft for political purposes; if they choose the Rafale, they might get invaded by the US.


Ah, I see - newspapers reports.

I too recall Israeli (IsAF) wanted InAF to select the F-16IN.

You see every AF makes their own decision based on their own needs. JSF and/or Canada, therefore, has no bearing on InAF.


For sure ... 2035 is just round the corner :)


Good.We need to let the Canadians know that Indian made Rafale would be the cheapest. And even more cheaper if Canada allows Chinese parts (yikes!!).

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Vipul » 03 Feb 2013 05:38

$10-bn defence deal to be signed during Hollande's 2-day visit.

With an eye on large business deals, French President Hollande is expected to arrive on a two-day visit to India on February 14. This would be his first visit to India since he took charge as president last year.

During his visit, Hollande would visit New Delhi and Mumbai. He plans to call on President Pranab Mukherjee, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Congress President Sonia Gandhi. To boost economic ties between both countries, he would also meet industry leaders.

Hollande would lead a high-powered delegation comprising senior French Cabinet ministers and business leaders from leading French companies. Among the highlights of his visit would be the signing of the $10-billion deal relating to the purchase of 126 French Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft ( MMRCA) manufactured by Dassault Aviation.

During the visit, a much-awaited deal between France’s nuclear conglomerate Areva and Nuclear Power Corporation of India to build European pressurised reactors might also be signed. The protests against the nuclear power plant in Jaitapur, Maharashtra, notwithstanding, both sides had already finalised the deal and were expected to sign it soon, officials said.

Since the deal to build the European reactors was announced as part of an agreement between former French president Nicolas Sarkozy and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on December 2010, it has faced stiff opposition. The deal also involves the supply of nuclear fuel for 25 years.

“This will be Hollande’s first visit to any Asian country since his election…There had been good discussions on the MMRCA deal and negotiations concerning the Jaitapur nuclear plant are also going on smoothly,” a senior diplomat told Business Standard.

Hollande and Prime Minister Singh had first met on the sidelines of the G20 Summit in Los Cabos, Mexico, in June last year. As a precursor to Hollande’s visit, External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid had, last month, visited France, where he met his French counterpart Laurent Fabius.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 03 Feb 2013 08:21

^^^^^^^^
better that the deal is signed this time itself, if Dassault really wants to sell and IAF / MOD is satisfied with all the TOT discussion etc then no point in wasting time taking into account the upcoming elections etc.
Further with around $18-20 billion for MMRCA and if the Jaitapur deal also reaches conclusion with another $20billion , France seems to be having the last laugh

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Jaybhatt » 03 Feb 2013 09:47

NRao wrote:Who gives a damn what the Canadians do.

Even the IAF is buying Rafale (hope I got that spelling right) as fillers. That is all they are.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

You have got the spelling right. However, that's about all. The rest of your logic and facts are as topsy-turvy as ever.

Read the very well-informed posts of Karan M, Ekalavya and Dhiraj, in response to your ramblings. The Canadian decision is most relevant for India and the IAF and clearly belongs in this thread, as everyone else manifestly thinks.

That may stop your harrumphing.

It is risible when you refer to the Rafale as a "filler" in the IAF's inventory. The entire IAF technical evaluation team will be right in concluding that you live in cloud-cuckoo land.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 03 Feb 2013 22:32


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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 04 Feb 2013 23:01

what is the probability of a Rafale deal during the French President visit on Feb 14th.
Any guesses :roll:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby SagarAg » 04 Feb 2013 23:04

dhiraj wrote:what is the probability of a Rafale deal during the French President visit on Feb 14th.
Any guesses :roll:

I think its -ve. :((

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 04 Feb 2013 23:08

^^^^^
aap to sad kar diye....thought of some +ve response so posted the query :(

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Christopher Sidor » 05 Feb 2013 01:09

Karan M wrote:Sidor, the Americans have demonstrated they can do effective stealth shaping, and avionics, plus propulsion. But in the JSF, they compromised on aerodynamics, so they can't meet KPI for acceleration, STR. So they intend to depend on tactics to compensate.

For the J-20, J-31, the Chinese have not demonstrated anything yet in terms of real cutting edge stuff. All they have is a flying demonstrator. Going by the J-10 experience, it will be functional but nothing earth shattering. The J-10 can currently be outfought by upgraded Vipers and Eagles, upgraded Flankers, Fulcrums and even Mirage 2000s. Judging by its overall shaping, it may have decent stealth with RAM, but will fall behind in terms of aero performance (China still lags in propulsion) and avionics. The Chinese are in talks with Russia for the Su-35. This upgraded Flanker has technology ahead of what they currently are developing, and says it all.

Fair enough. The fact that they are going for J-20 and J-31 while they are in talks with Soviets for Su-35, i.e. Super Flanker tells us something. If Su-35 were so great and would be able to penetrate the air defenses of the Americans then PRC would not have been developing J-20 and J-31. Against Indian air defense systems, it is a different story.
PRC knows that they will need to have a very long range fighter-bomber able to take on US Marines and USN in Western Pacific along with Indian forces in the south. J-20 may or may not be used as a pure A2A fighter like F-22, but what it definitely will be used is to carry out deep interdiction over the enemy's territories or bases.

Karan M wrote:In contrast, the French design approach has been to make a low observable (not VLO like the JSF) with suitable electronic aids (the Spectra) to assist in its A2A and A2S roles, without compromising on two key attributes - aircraft aerodynamics (which means it has excellent turn rates, acceleration etc) and range. Plus, the French excellence in integrated avionics is long known.

You can read about what a superb platform the Rafale is here:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-334383/

Net, in WVR this plane is very likely to be superior to the J-20/J-31. Both sides will have difficulty in BVR with RF acquisition and RF guided missiles. The Indian side will have access to L Band Phalcons & S-Band AEW&C, plus long range aerostats, if these are used judiciously, the so called Chinese stealth/quasi-stealth aircraft can still be picked up and tracked. Once that is done, note that the Rafale has the IR guided BVR Mica, a unique missile of its class, which will allow the Rafale to even target RF VLO aircraft.

In the Kargil war across the battle field various fighters of IAF and PAF had engaged in radar lock on each other. They were all operating over the BVR spectrum. The era of WVR is over and is coming to a close. And further you are assuming that PLAAFs J-20 and J-31 would be picked up and tracked. I am not so sanguine about that currently. Maybe by 2020 we might have the capability, but right now it is a big question mark.

Karan M wrote:Also, in terms of strike - the Rafale is currently without peer as an integrated platform. Read the test report to understand why.

Its only weakness are the number of weapons integrated, which can be addressed and is not a deal breaker. To take out S-3XX type platforms, the Rafale + LRCMs is perfect.

In short, the IAF is likely to be pleased as punch when the Rafale enters service. It will be a huge force multiplier and allow IAF squadrons to dominate the battlefield.

A single Rafale squadron can do everything that in the past required Mirage 2000s with MiG-29 escort or MiG-25s with Mirage escort or Jaguars with MiG-21 escort etc could do.

I do not deny it. Rafale is a very capable Omni-role aircraft, something which IAF wanted. This is unlike EFT. But it is still not stealthy enough. And if PRC starts to deploy S-400 or its cloned equivalent in East Turkestan, Tibet and central China the task of Rafael gets tough if not impossible. The problem is that we do not need a fighter which can do everything a Mirage 2K, Mig-29 or Jaguar can do. What we need tomorrow is a highly networked-cum-integrated fighter (which Rafale is) along with a stealthy aircraft (which Rafale is not). We are going to be spending more than 10 billion USD on this fighter. Does it make sense to spend more than 10 billion USD on a fighter which might not be able to penetrate PRC's defenses without a proper escort?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 05 Feb 2013 01:46

Christopher Sidor wrote:Fair enough. The fact that they are going for J-20 and J-31 while they are in talks with Soviets for Su-35, i.e. Super Flanker tells us something. If Su-35 were so great and would be able to penetrate the air defenses of the Americans then PRC would not have been developing J-20 and J-31. Against Indian air defense systems, it is a different story.


Or they are developing these knowing they wont get the core tech on the Su-35. Remember, the Russians didn't transfer avionics or engine tech and even held back overhaul & maintenance assistance on the Sukhois! The PRC hence tried to reverse engineer the Su-27SK, which has been a mediocre attempt so far. And given their tendency to copy the Joneses -their latest attempt is on similar lines.
Simple fact of the matter is that if the PRC had 300 Su-35s, the US would be far more worried than against their 300 odd J-20/J-31 combo or whatever, since the US knows how capable the former are. Pair the above Su-35s with potent Kh-31/Kh-35/Moskit style missiles...and you have a very strong anti access force.
But these same planes can be used against Russia itself. Which is why only 48 Su-35s are on offer and no TOT.

PRC knows that they will need to have a very long range fighter-bomber able to take on US Marines and USN in Western Pacific along with Indian forces in the south. J-20 may or may not be used as a pure A2A fighter like F-22, but what it definitely will be used is to carry out deep interdiction over the enemy's territories or bases.


Nobody knows this, at this point everyone is speculating as to its role. What the J-20 is as of now, is a TD. Till yesterday the PRC dabbed some paint onto the nozzles and everyone was ooh-aah over a new Chinese engine. Now the fans reluctantly concede that its a standard AL-31 with paint. That is how the PRC has controlled media around this plane to build hype. But substance is a different matter.
Now, think of how much MTOW this large airframe has, the challenges faced by every program till date in sticking to the budgeted weight (pretty much all overshot by a significant margin) and the relatively older engines. So who knows exactly how this will perform? What of the avionics package? What of its internal weapons package?
Calling it an interdictor or an interceptor is to jump the gun. It will take a decade + to mature, and by then, the technologies available to India would have jumped manifold, including a range of radars and sensors operating across multiple bands.

In the Kargil war across the battle field various fighters of IAF and PAF had engaged in radar lock on each other. They were all operating over the BVR spectrum.


That just shows you completely ignored the circumstances of the Kargil War and know relatively less about it at this point of time.

First, PAF radar locking on IAF aircraft at BVR ranges or successfully doing so to achieve any operational impact, is pure propaganda. They had no BVR capability operational till they acquired the AMRAAM equipped F-16s.

At Kargil, only the IAF had a decisive BVR edge in terms of AA-10 and Super530D.

Next, so what if they radar locked the PAF planes, it could still have gone WVR, because the PAF planes could have evaded a missile or two, the seekers on the missiles could have lost lock, they could have malfunctioned and so forth!

And today, its much the same thing.

If you actually follow BVR tactics, the weakest link in BVR today is the RF missile & RF guidance. If they get jammed or spoofed, then your primary weapon is useless and you have to go to WVR. Even here, China does not yet have Imaging Infra Red AAMs like India has purchased with the Mica and is tendering for with the Jaguar & are planned for other aircraft upgrades. They too can get spoofed by flares. And again, if missiles malfunction or get spoofed - forget WVR, you are down to guns.

Ironically, in an era of unforeseen electronics expansion, guns remain the certain sure shot killer

Which is why the IAF continues to place a lot of emphasis not just on BVR but WVR and even guns!

The era of WVR is over and is coming to a close.


Hardly! WVR remains the most deadly arena and as a result of which, more advanced WVR missiles are being developed. WVR has been written off by futurists many times, only to bite everyone when it resurfaced. The other day, even the F-22 finally received AIM-9X capability.

And further you are assuming that PLAAFs J-20 and J-31 would be picked up and tracked. I am not so sanguine about that currently. Maybe by 2020 we might have the capability, but right now it is a big question mark.


How do you know its a big question mark? All you have are a couple of flying TDs and you are ascribing capabilities to them. Do they have operational RAM? What are their actual signatures? And proper all aspect values? What is their signature management? No theoretical papers please by Kopp & co about possible results assuming best in class methods currently available to far more mature aerospace industries. Second, its pretty logical to note that the PLAAF's fighters would be picked up and tracked as India is well on its way to fielding one of the world's most complex farms of multiband radars, from S Band (LLTR, LLLWR, AEW&CS, MPR) to LBand (Phalcon, Strategic Radars) and not just X Band, then there are ESM and CSM systems, all of which will be networked.

And 2020 is pretty ok even if India did not have these capabilities now (to a significant extent it does) since only by then will the J-20 end up getting into some sort of operational shape as an actual weapons platform.

I dont deny it. Rafale is a very capable Omni-role aircraft, something which IAF wanted. This is unlike EFT. But it is still not stealthy enough.


How do you know that its not stealthy enough? How do we know what a Rafale with its Spectra jamming, flying nap of the earth, can or cannot do? Stealth(y) strike can be achieved by many ways, the Rafale takes one other approach, of LO+ EW+ long range strike via missiles like SCALP.

And if PRC starts to deploy S-400 or its cloned equivalent in East Turkestan, Tibet and central China the task of Rafael gets tough if not impossible.


The S-400 is not sold to China yet, and even if it were, it remains vulnerable to LRCM strikes delivered by a low flying fighter.

The problem is that we do not need a fighter which can do everything a Mirage 2K, Mig-29 or Jaguar can do. What we need tomorrow is a highly networked-cum-integrated fighter (which Rafale is) along with a stealthy aircraft (which Rafale is not).


Again, more assumptions here. Where is this stealthy fighter that can replace the Rafale?
Its clearly not the JSF, because its side RCS is nothing great, and its internal carriage is pathetic at 4 odd missiles. Furthermore, if external stores are kept, there goes the frontal RCS as well. Further, no internal jammer is fitted to aid the RCS reduction. And nor are JSFs available to India in plenty, soon and with TOT (the IAF insists on local sourcing of spares as much as possible).
So basically, this argument is a non starter. In 2022, the IAF will get its own stealthy platform, and that will complement the Rafales.

We are going to be spending more than 10 billion USD on this fighter. Does it make sense to spend more than 10 billion USD on a fighter which might not be able to penetrate PRC's defenses without a proper escort?


Rafales self escort, that is the entire point of having such a multirole fighter. You have come to the rather flawed conclusion that a) the PRCs defences are so formidable that only a stealth fighter would do b) that such a stealth fighter is available and c) the Rafale cannot get through the PRC defences.

Sorry, but none of these claims are tenable. As things stand, a Su-30 MKI with the Brahmos-A or Nirbhay as and when they come can & will be a potent counter to PRCs long range SAMs (S-300 PMU variants - just knock out the radar or command cabin), and so will the Rafale with any long range munition the IAF chooses for it.

Unfortunately, you are overstating the case for SAMs, they are useful, but only to some extent. They remain vulnerable to many threats. And munitions like the SCALP or KEPD or Taurus etc remain potent threats.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 05 Feb 2013 03:35

^^^^
Nice post

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby nachiket » 05 Feb 2013 03:49

In the Kargil war across the battle field various fighters of IAF and PAF had engaged in radar lock on each other. They were all operating over the BVR spectrum.

Just as a data point, the PAF did not have a single BVRAAM in their inventory in 1999. Locking onto an IAF aircraft at BVR ranges would have been useless for them at the time.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srai » 05 Feb 2013 07:34

Sounds like Christopher Sidor is completely sold on the "5th- Gen" hype ;)

Apart from inherent VLO design, modern 4++Gen fighters incorporate all the other tech previously attributed to the 5th Gen, such as AESA radar, TVC, networked data fusion, HMD, FBW, IRST, etc. In the near future, stealthy external weapon pods will also become available apart from more powerful EW and other stealthy materials that can be added retroactively.


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