Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[Victor]

If Dassault doesn't want to part with certain techs and breaks the "full ToT" promise, what is HAL going to do that Reliance can't? It is probably the other way around--Dassault wants to make sure that any ToT they do is actually absorbed and put to use.

[GeorgeWelch]

Dassault just does not want to part with specific technologies.

HAL has a proven track record of being unable to capitalize on ToT.

If that was Dassault's concern, they would be delighted to work with HAL.

[Vipin_Upadhyay]

whatever, logic/reason/arguement, at some point we have to start looking towards encouraging private industry for defence manufacturing, there is simply no other option. Whether RIL, Tata, MM, L&T are trust worthy/patriotic enough or not can be debated till death. So far we have done zilch in privatization of major defence projects.

[member_20292]

^^ not true.

Dassault can control the pace and ToT of work far better in the case of Reliance, who has no past experience of making aircraft.

If you think that all the Russian aircraft that we have built with licence over the years...none of any useful data has gone into the thick heads of HAL engineers and scientists,....there is a Dassault built bridge near my house that I would like to offer to you for sale.

HAL is too smart to reveal that in fact, they CAN reverse engineer and they HAVE reverse engineered things in the past. ToT...has found its way into ToK and products that have been built in India, do show the learnings from foreign made licenced planes.

Undoubtedly, Dassault fears : 1. slow implementation leading to Dassault getting the blame. 2. ToT. In fact too much ToT. HAL people learning too much, and Dassaults competitive edge being lost.

Reliance , on the other hand, will find it difficult to simply hire 10,000 aero engineers and start making them work on the first line from day one.

HAL has being building aircraft since 1950s. If you think that those fellows do not have any institutional knowledge to suck up too much ToT, you are mistaken.

They sure don't have good EXECUTION skills...certainly not in the realm of Boeing, Airbus et al. But they SURE do have good CORE technical skills.

If you have been following the progress Indian defence electronics in general has been making...you will find your answer as to why Dassault fears HAL.

[Indranil]

In the immortal words of the late great Deng Xiaoping:

"It does not matter what colour a cat is, as long as it catches mice."

A Dassault-Reliance joint venture, even with corruption, will deliver faster and with higher quality than HAL.

As for cost escalation, HAL will also escalate costs through delays.

All-in-all, if Dassault can be made to sign a tight contract guaranteeing timely deliveries with quality, I don't care if they partner with HAL, Reliance, or with a car mechanic in a corner shop in Jhumritalaiya.

Exactly!!!

Plus if this allows us to break the monopoly of HAL, it will be a great program for India.

[Austin]

What Dassult is stating is they wont be liable for the products that are made at HAL , Dassult can put the process , QC , TOT in place to make the aircraft by HAL but they cannot be be held accountable if some of the end product ends up with defects and flaws , you cant blame OEM for mistakes or oversight on part of HAL.

As simplistic example Its like this you go to the computer shop and ask the vendor you need to build a customise computer based on your specs , he builds it for you and you pay for it including the assembling charges , should there be a issue found within the warranty period or if parts are flaw you can replace it or if you find the assembly is not done correctly you can go back to him and get it changed.

Now on the other hand you buy all the parts from the same vendor and assemble at your house and then you find that you havent does the assembly correctly and some components give suboptimum performance or may be some part blow up because you have followed the wrong procedure , then you can blame the shop owner for your own flaw.

Ofcourse building a Rafale is order of magnitude far more complex because it will involve many Indian built components from raw material procured abroad or later from India and many outrightly imported from Dassult ,then it involves testing certifying the entire aircraft till IAF accepts it. Its a huge complex process with thousands of components and subcomponents which would be procured from 100's of vendors in india that would be involved in making this for HAL , it can be a very mindboggling exercise.

Dassult can lay all the process in place for HAL to make the final product in India , transfer all the documents and machinery to make it from indian procured raw materials ,importing some components out right but the final product and QC/certification will be all HAL responsibility should some defect come up then it cant be held responsible for HAL's shoddy job.

If one recollects IAF was not happy with the earlier built Sukhoi from HAL leading to some acrimony between HAL and Sukhoi and subsequently a lot of MKI was procured in CKD/SKD format till it took some years to resolve it , probably Dassult does not want to be in the same situation.

[GeorgeWelch]

They sure don't have good EXECUTION skills.

Which is why Dassault is not and never will be afraid of HAL as a competitor.

But they SURE do have good CORE technical skills.

Which is meaningless in the business world unless they can execute. As I said, they can't capitalize on what they learn.

[manum]

we will see what is in store...but I just dont think its so simple as Dassault worried about quality of end product due to HAL...

This is just too simple...Hal knows about planes in & out, and you are telling we trust a rookie better ...

Rather DASSAULT can very well gain some control overy HAL performance in this project...so that HAL would deliver...

if this is part of negotiations...

I just dont think even if I was there I would give up HAL just like that...

Dassault will not win over this negotiators with this issue...I am quiet sure about it...

[Vipin_Upadhyay]

If you have been following the progress Indian defence electronics in general has been making...you will find your answer as to why Dassault fears HAL.

saar I agree with all your valid points about HAL being in much better position to absorb tech & divert it to other indigenous programs.

That said, after last 60 years with HAL we must self-critic ourselves & see where we stand today. We are world's one of the largest military power & expanding at rapid pace with practically little private participation. HAL's record is well documented, we are still refreshing LCA dhaga everyday to see when will HAL start producing Mk1. HAL is on record that they can't produce more than 8 LCA per year (&this is our fully home grown baby)

No one denies that companies like RIL are all about business, but at the end of the day they still are INDIAN companies owned & operated by Indians.

Dassaults fear is not HAL but this MRCA order, they have nothing else except this single Indian bulk order, it's too important for their future.

& who knows if RIL sees good potential in MRCA, they might in future buy majority stake in Dassault, thus effectively making it a semi-Indian company & might even put a competing proposal to IAF offering MCA rival developed & built by RIL owned Dassault?? Possibilities are many, but for that we have to take the first baby step of privatization.

HAL monopoly is detrimental to HAL itself & worst if not checked now it might turn HAL into another Avadi.

[Brando]

we will see what is in store...but I just dont think its so simple as Dassault worried about quality of end product due to HAL...

This is just too simple...Hal knows about planes in & out, and you are telling we trust a rookie better ...

I don't understand your statement. Are you implying that HAL is "better" than Dassault ?

And if you are talking about a new assembly line, how would that make them "rookies" ? Wouldn't Dassault lend its own experience and product management expertise to them?

HAL has once again become a "road block" in the acquisition process.

This is a good opportunity for the Government of India to weigh the pro's and con's of the role HAL plays in India and if it's time to cut HAL from the Government and divest government's stake in the company.

[manum]

waah...Its just so easy to call the lead integrator road block...

and why dont a scientist lend all its expertise to a school kid to make him scientist too just in matter of days...now that is possible...

Government spends billionst of dollars to just give key technologies to private sector...who will in turn charge government for it later...that is justice...

Now dont say I dont want pvt sector in it...I want them but not without strap around their neck...till they show symptoms of loyalty and our laws improve about technology of the state...

[member_20292]

waah...Its just so easy to call the lead integrator road block...

and why dont a scientist lend all its expertise to a school kid to make him scientist too just in matter of days...now that is possible...

Exactly.

I have full faith in HALs capability to factory and assembly produce licence built copies. The GoI can create a special purpose vehicle, or maybe even buy a part of Dassault, or make a JV with Dassault/Reliance to do the job.

But to leave it to Dassault/Reliance only ?

They'll charge us 1 million dollars a tyre, when we want to get fresh tyres for the IAFs Rafales, in 2025.

[mody]

If HAL can manage to build Su-30MKI, I don't see how the Rafael is an order of magnitude more complex for HAL to make.
To compare the experience of HAL and Reliance in the aerospace, space and to build Aircrafts, is not even laughable. Infact Reliance does not even have an aerospace division.

Daal mein Jharoor kuch kaala hai!!

[karan_mc]

what is Dassault thinking that some on paper company will be able to manufacture their fighters better than HAL ?? , seems like a plan to rip off IAF and MOd later by rising price midway or blackmailing them , Purre Daal hi kaali hai

[NRao]

In the immortal words of the late great Deng Xiaoping:

"It does not matter what colour a cat is, as long as it catches mice."

A Dassault-Reliance joint venture, even with corruption, will deliver faster and with higher quality than HAL.

As for cost escalation, HAL will also escalate costs through delays.

All-in-all, if Dassault can be made to sign a tight contract guaranteeing timely deliveries with quality, I don't care if they partner with HAL, Reliance, or with a car mechanic in a corner shop in Jhumritalaiya.

Exactly!!!

Plus if this allows us to break the monopoly of HAL, it will be a great program for India.

Just that:
1) wish the French had a JV with Tata (or the like), not Reliance, and
2) The French subscribe to being crooked. The concept of "they will sell their grandmother .........." seems to be part of their culture.

Understandably their quality is unquestioned.

Time to question the rest.

[member_22605]

Dassault's problem with HAL is probably that the rafale tech can possibly be used for other HAL manufacturing programs. Reliance on the other hand wouldn't mind just assembling CKDs if they are able to make a profit and wouldn't care a damn about the tech and moreover reliance can at most setup an assembly line but not match the overall strength of HAL. Coming to HAL not being able to absorb technology, we must remember that the tejas is perhaps one of the most difficult combat aircrafts to build with respect to the materials and process. Perhaps next only to an F/A-22. Just the amount of composites used, makes it tough enough and though it is an indigenous project the production is almost like TOT from ADA. I admit the manufacturing process of ours isn't probably the best but claiming that we are not technically equipped is pure BS. Aircraft manufacturing is probably more complex than designing. If dassault feels that HAL with decades of experience can't manufacture what is essentially a 4th gen fighter(4.5 according to me is just a marketing pitch) then how can reliance or anyone else even dream of doing it with ZERO experience in the same country with even less experienced manpower. I feel all this is just hogwash to try and prevent HAL/India from progressing to catch hold of a company which only is intent on profit no matter what it takes.Further if sukhoi feels HAL is good enough for PAK-FA which is WAY more advanced than Rafale then i see no reason why Dassault wouldn't trust HAL's abilit to build a fighter which is at most just a miniscule step ahead of the su 30MKI(not the super 30 mind you). Just my opinion
Cheers!

[Indranil]

Dassault's problem with HAL is probably that the rafale tech can possibly be used for other HAL manufacturing programs. Reliance on the other hand wouldn't mind just assembling CKDs if they are able to make a profit and wouldn't care a damn about the tech and moreover reliance can at most setup an assembly line but not match the overall strength of HAL. Coming to HAL not being able to absorb technology, we must remember that the tejas is perhaps one of the most difficult combat aircrafts to build with respect to the materials and process. Perhaps next only to an F/A-22. Just the amount of composites used, makes it tough enough and though it is an indigenous project the production is almost like TOT from ADA. I admit the manufacturing process of ours isn't probably the best but claiming that we are not technically equipped is pure BS. Aircraft manufacturing is probably more complex than designing. If dassault feels that HAL with decades of experience can't manufacture what is essentially a 4th gen fighter(4.5 according to me is just a marketing pitch) then how can reliance or anyone else even dream of doing it with ZERO experience in the same country with even less experienced manpower. I feel all this is just hogwash to try and prevent HAL/India from progressing to catch hold of a company which only is intent on profit no matter what it takes.Further if sukhoi feels HAL is good enough for PAK-FA which is WAY more advanced than Rafale then i see no reason why Dassault wouldn't trust HAL's abilit to build a fighter which is at most just a miniscule step ahead of the su 30MKI(not the super 30 mind you). Just my opinion
Cheers!

Very good counter points.

[SaiK]

I thinking we all are at guess work, while the inside jobs men are making hay while sunshine. We don't even know the details of ToT.. and this nothing but screw driver ++. What is the difficulty with HAL to integrate and assemble to spec, I can't understand Dassault's concern. But, OTOH they are valid if they say, for screw driver++, why do we need HAL, Reliance would do is perfectly valid argument as they can play politics now... and aided by RIL business approach.

The crux is still that we are failing to achieve or even get a head start on our self reliance objectives. For that to realize, first we need to know the ToT levels, and does it match to the requirements where we want technology. This is what I think Dassault is playing politics so that with RIL, they can do a screw driver, whereas HAL would like to go screw driver++ or even +2 or +3., where they might reveal more, and trying to avoid and make big bucks under ToT regime... as is, they have a jacked up price for their "established quality factor".

It does not serve the purpose, if it does not attribute to mission objectives, that is, we need ToT, where we are lacking. Hence, I QED my earlier notion of cancelling this rafale business, if they are ignoring our core tot requirements.

[Multatuli]

raghuk wrote:

Dassault's problem with HAL is probably that the rafale tech can possibly be used for other HAL manufacturing programs.

....

Further if sukhoi feels HAL is good enough for PAK-FA which is WAY more advanced than Rafale then i see no reason why Dassault wouldn't trust HAL's abilit to build a fighter which is at most just a miniscule step ahead of the su 30MKI(not the super 30 mind you). Just my opinion.

You nailed it! If HAL can't absorb the manufacturing technology in a reasonable time frame, then Reliance Industries certainly won't be able to do so either.

And yes one of the 'benefits' India expects from this deal, is to take our manufacturing tech level a step further. And India will be paying Dassault for this. But even then, Dassault isn't willing to give HAL the know-how, for the reason you mentioned.

I agree with those who say that if Indian can not gain the desired manufacturing technologies, then it's better for India to cancel this deal and concentrate on the Tejas and MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft). The MCA Mk.1 doesn't have to be a 5th generation fighter, a capable 4+ generation fighter/bomber would do just fine.

[SaiK]

++

[Will]

I am all for privatisation and it is imperative to give private industry the opportunity to be lead integrators. It is important that we build up competition to PSUs like HAL. But in this case I just think that the French are trying to screw us. They are just trying to get out of commitments to transfer technology. A good model could a JV between HAL and Reliance where the work is split. But the problem is that PSUs will just not give up their monopoly.

Maybe the time has come for the govt to invite the Eurofighter Consortium to match the price of the Rafale and keep options open.

[SaiK]

Private participation has to be happen at LRU level, like in LCA case. Let private come out with extra investments in niche areas, production engineering and such capabilities. DRDO can do the R&D (the shameful exception here is GTRE who are trying to import tech - they are fools.. none will share turbine tech, and is a shame). For example, LCA production line can be run by RIL/Tatas etc. under the joint integration program headed by HAL.

Integration management is all HAL work., in addition to defence and gov regulatory body.. This way, they can engage private. Breaking up HAL is another option.

[Vipul]

Just give indication of starting talks for Eurofighter and then watch Dassault do a Mach2 to the HAL assembly (not production) line.With the extended requirements this is a $20 Billion order and the French give a fenchie for a miniscule atomic percentage of that number.

[Victor]

..if sukhoi feels HAL is good enough for PAK-FA..

Problem is sukhoi does not feel HAL is good enough to absorb ToT either, which is why they have given zero ToT on PAKFA. Screwdriver assembly is the only thing HAL has shown some capability in and the Russians couldn't care less. They don't respect contracts and will simply present another huge bill if they have to step in and clear up a mess in future.

Forget Dassault, the IAF itself--HAL's most important customer--has major problems with HAL's work and have said so as publicly as possible out of sheer desperation. What is left to say.

[Katare]

No one can replace HAL

Dassault disagrees. In fact they are willing to GUARANTEE they can make it work with someone else. Someone else who has no aviation experience.

They remain UNWILLING to make the same guarantee for HAL.

no other Indian company private or public has large infrastructure that is needed. An airport to fligh test, hangers, experienced test pilots, tracking equipment.

All those can be bought with money, none are serious obstacles.

The MRCA is beginning to look less and less about defense and more about propping up an aging dinosaur.

Dassault does not disagree because it's simply not feasible. What Dassault is asking is flexibility to directly sign/distribute work to private sector in India and HAL. HAL/MoD wants to be single source contractor for Dassualt and than they'll out source the work to Indian subcontractors as they please. If Dassault signs the contract with only HAL than they want the contract to be structured like the Scorpeon submarine contract where Mazgoan is responsible for delays for it's part of work.

In no case this project can be completed in required time frame without HAL being final integrator. It is clearly stipulated in the contract and any changes in that clause would mean cancellation of the entire deal.

And money can not buy organizational experience and time (to create infrastructure) neither can money buy what's not on sale and things that you can't afford.

I think it makes sense to let Dassault distribute the work the way it wants because if gets to HAL they'll only sell out subsystem to small businesses. HAL being a public sector company would not be able to sign a contract like Dassualt can with Reliance. MoD would have to set a policy than HAL would invite tenders followed by selection and complains of wrong doing. This (Dassualt Reliance tie-up) could be our ticket to bring in a large tier 1 private player into the aerospace game but make no mistake about it, HAL will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from happening.

[Cosmo_R]

In this new act of the MMRCA saga, to make sense of this latest twist, we need to 'follow the money'.

Here's the $20 bn question: after 12 years of waiting, haggling, politicking and pitching, Dassault have come within a cat's whisker of winning their biggest order ever(including from GoF).

Why would they now jeopardize the whole shebang by insisting on Reliance v. HAL? They could easily say OK, 'we'll go with HAL. Our responsibility ends with the delivery of the CKDs, the manuals , DVDs and the screwdrivers.' The 18 Rafales we build and deliver are the reference A/C--that show without doubt that the darn thing works as advertised (in our reponse to the RFP).'

'If you want HAL, we are not responsible for the delivery schedule or the build quality of the A/C they assemble and, BTW, you'll pay us when we deliver the CKDs to HAL for the 108.' (take or pay).' Let HAL/MoD decide on the 50% offsets.

Instead, Dassault is going out on a limb by insisting on Reliance and (apparently) accepting responsibility for delivery and build responsibility. Why? Mukesh Ambani has a dossier on France?

I suspect, that what is happening is MoD/HAL want Dassault to be accountable for things they have no control over to cover PSU incompetence. It's the same negotiating stance that has stymied nuclear power plants---unlimited liability for the actions/competence/negligence of third parties you have no control over.

You can see another example of this with FDI in the retail sector--where the GoI is insisting on 30% being sourced from SME's without regard to the ability of the latter to deliver. Looking at it another way, this one more NAC initiative to outsource GoI work to foreign investors in the face of big contracts.

Sonia Gandhian tactics to control the offset money to companies and regions they want while hiding under the Dassault offsets obligation..

[Karan M]

..if sukhoi feels HAL is good enough for PAK-FA..

Problem is sukhoi does not feel HAL is good enough to absorb ToT either, which is why they have given zero ToT on PAKFA.

Victor, now you are just making stuff up. The PAK FA is a development program so where does the question of TOT arise at this point in time? Only once the India specific version is ready around 2020, and most subsystems tested and validated, with a production line ready can TOT be done. Further, a recent report even mentioned that NIIP is in talks with the Indian side to see what they can contribute to the AESA radar. So industrial participation will occur.

[qupte]Screwdriver assembly is the only thing HAL has shown some capability in and the Russians couldn't care less. [/quote]

Wrong. HAL has design input in the ALH, systems input in the LCA - they designed and developed several of the key local LRUs in the plane, and was responsible for leading the DARIN-2 and 3 Jaguar upgrades.

They don't respect contracts and will simply present another huge bill if they have to step in and clear up a mess in future.

And the others do? The French, Russians, British - pretty much everyone we have dealt with seeks to renegotiate contracts or try to make a killing wherever they can once the deal is done.

Forget Dassault, the IAF itself--HAL's most important customer--has major problems with HAL's work and have said so as publicly as possible out of sheer desperation. What is left to say.

Thats just hyperbole, because clearly then you havent had the opportunity to see anyone from the IAF vent on Dassault, MiG and BAe, goody two shoes articles in the media about the Mirages at Kargil, IAFs beloved MiGs and Jaguars apart.
HAL is not blameless, and its senior management has had a very laid back culture, but a lot of the stick they cop is because they end up taking other people's systems and platforms and selling it to a customer which ideally needs systems designed for its own needs to begin with. The number of design changes implemented in the MiG-23 and MiG-27 to rectify operational issues, are legion. Many were done by HAL as SU was not bothered (they were both retiring the platforms and FSU breakup was their bigger headache). Similarly, local jugaad/assistance has kept the Mirage 2000 and Jaguar operational in a cost effective manner.
One would judge from your posts that these foreign OEMs were paragons of blameless virtue and HAL couldnt do anything..its hardly as simple as that.

And last but not least Raghuk is dead right about Dassault not wanting Rafale to be assembled by the same company that will make the PAKFA/FGFA. In the past improvements in manufacturing lines done by HAL for the DO228 were used by HAL for the Jaguar. It has already shown the middle finger to overpriced British consultants when it came to Jaguar upgrades and did them on its own, setting up its own upgrade center (AURDC) in the process. Similarly, after the Bison experience, IAF tasked a local ADE/HAL team to do the MiG27 UPG and even that was done. Net, Dassault clearly wants to ringfence its technologies and prevent India from accessing them for other programs. Further, word is that Dassault subsystem suppliers want to prevent TOT to go to HAL as it will kill their lucrative plans to keep the parts chain in France/Europe.

If the Dassault team were that bothered about all that, then they shouldnt have entered the MMRCA to begin with. Sorry, but this is the typical brazen armtwisting many OEMs try to do with India, and its a good thing the Eurofighter is still around to keep the Frenchie sane.

[NRao]

Screwdriver assembly is the only thing HAL has shown some capability in and the Russians couldn't care less.

Wrong. HAL has design input in the ALH, systems input in the LCA - they designed and developed several of the key local LRUs in the plane, and was responsible for leading the DARIN-2 and 3 Jaguar upgrades.

And the MKI!!!!!!!!

Besides there are very few non-screw driver institutions worldwide.

[Karan M]

Instead, Dassault is going out on a limb by insisting on Reliance and (apparently) accepting responsibility for delivery and build responsibility. Why? Mukesh Ambani has a dossier on France?

I suspect, that what is happening is MoD/HAL want Dassault to be accountable for things they have no control over to cover PSU incompetence. It's the same negotiating stance that has stymied nuclear power plants---unlimited liability for the actions/competence/negligence of third parties you have no control over..

Spend some time at public expos/CII shindigs getting a feel of what is going on and you';ll learn the other story. These gents from abroad regard India as a market. They dont like this codevelopment business, they dont like this offset stuff and they definitely dont like TOT. In short, while playing the game, they are constantly trying to change the rules of the game, heavily lobbying MOD, planting articles in the media about how XYX cannot absorb their sooper sophisticated tech etcetc. The lines are many, the message is the same. Relax your rules and just buy your stuff and take whatever we give you. Its blatant and they dont care. Because in India individual DPSUs etc dont behave as autonomous firms which can start taking out advertisements or campaigns to rebut some of the planted stories against them. The MOD just sits in the center like an octopus and doesn't take a stand on all these antics either.

Arms exports to India are a big business. They are also how indians make money for their campaigns. So both sides let a lot of this back and forth go on, at the cost of national aims.

None of these western partners wants to give India tech that could end up being pointed at their own warships when they decide to do gunboat diplomacy. In the 80's since we bought Russian, those who would sell to us, thought of us as poor Arabs. We give them stuff, but they are too foolish and backward to do anything with it. The Airbus A320 crash in India was dismissed by a then French representative as "what do you expect when you give an electric jet to camel jockies". It was even reported in the trade press. Now, despite all their bravura, racism and condescension, they do know India has multiple engineering successes (n-power plans, the Nano, automotive parts exports, IT industry). All the mocking of the LCA, Arjun etc apart - grudging realization that neither program was cancelled and they are getting steadily to the point they will be deployed. Missile program, Space program shows a line of success, which means India has managed to create a family of products and not one-offs.
In this milieu, they do want our market, but they dont want to encourage our industrial success in anyway.
Max they'd want us to be is at the outsourced R&D level, wherein Indians make some widgets, some antennas, some cabins for their mature programs.

Not end up as a nation where their technology finds its way into Indian programs.

Technology cartels and arms treaties limiting tech transfer to the third world etc are being bypassed by these TOT/Offset agreements to India, and they dont like that.

This business of Dassault asking for Reliance is the classic example of how the game is played. A company with zero prior experience will go through heck to make anything a tenth of the Rafale. Costs will inflate and no synergy in terms of leveraging manpower experience a unit like HAL has spread across many divisions. And this farce is sold as "efficiency" and Dassault thinks it can get it done. Assumes the Indian public is credulous and will buy it, sold with a heavy dose of lobbying from the International trade press who run Dassault ads.

Its not the only company playing such games.

Rafael - not the different placement of the e - was supposed to work with BDL to transfer seeker tech. They didnt. They now want a mutually owned firm with significant shareholding to control their IP. Clearly, they dont want Astra's with Israeli IIR seekers pop up in the international or even local market.

There are many many such examples.

The GOI should sit tight and play hard ball. These are not the days of the EIC, India is a sovereign nation and if our fellow Indian's tax money is to be spent prodigiously, let it be spent in the form of Indian national interests.

[Karan M]

And the MKI!!!!!!!!

Besides there are very few non-screw driver institutions worldwide.

Interesting you brought up the MKI. Now for the MKI Astra integration, they had to develop jigs locally. They'll be doing it for Nirbhay as well. The software for the Mission Computers in Jaguar upgrades was coded by HAL teams w/ADE, and the IAF has a choice to use that for the MKI as well. Point is HAL is a favorite whipping boy of many folks who don't even see whats going on in their own backyard and what the USAF is saying about LockMart. , which would be limited grounds to totally write LockMart off. Which is what people do with HAL.

Its not perfect, nothing in India is (including the private sector), but its improving & has vision which its implementing. Last year they even set up an avionics division. Stuff like this is almost never reported whereas the finger pointing is all too common.

Last but not least, the current HAL head has been mocked for being an ONGC, marketing guy. Whats wrong with that? Judge him by his work. First thing he did when he came in apparently is send out all senior HAL folks to different regions/factories/customer sites to get feedback on what was working and what was not. Second, he did the same to ask for increasing the vendor base which means a good rise for Indian firms supplying to HAL, which means tech transfer from Riussia-HAL-Pvt vendor is a plus for India. Net, the head seems interested in fixing things which is what is required.

[Cosmo_R]

Karan M: ^^^ This does not address the issue of why Dassault is willing to risk going with Reliance which as you put it has zero cred. and risk the contract going to EF. Or, being opened up all over again. It has to do with more than just Edelstenne playing hard ball.

FWIW, I can tell you that the liabilities that nuclear equipment suppliers were being asked to assume on Indian contracts regardless of any negligence on the part of NNPC, were unreal and no CEO could accept them.

Separately, it would be easier to accept the PSUs as the silent, wronged party unable to pipe up on their own behalf if they had a track record. They don't and the 'trust us' part is getting difficult to accept. The list is long and the delays longer.

HAL is unable to deliver a prop driven trainer a/c successor to the HT2?. To help them improve, it is important to have competitors even public ones.

No one expects ToT on the MMRCA or even the PAK-FA. In fact, no one outside of the US and maybe Russia are self-sufficient. Even on the LCA we are dependent on what 50-80% +? Whether HAL or Reliance does the Rafale, no usable ToT that would enable us to build Rafale NG will have been imparted.

Only the US has the capacity and look where it's got them on JSF! By the time it's done, it'll cost $300MM per copy in then current dollars.

What is critical is getting an AC in the hands of the IAF ASAP. The current drama is about patronage dollars that can be directed under the ToT/SME aegis to serve political ends.

[Karan M]

Karan M: ^^^ This does not address the issue of why Dassault is willing to risk going with Reliance which as you put it has zero cred. and risk the contract going to EF. Or, being opened up all over again. It has to do with more than just Edelstenne playing hard ball.

It actually tells you but you have not understood the point. Dassault does not want its technology to be used by other Indian programs especially those which will improve programs like the FGFA that can kill the Rafale. It does not want production to ramp up in subsystems at HAL or at HAL's partners that will put a lot of people in France looking for new business. Thats a goldmine.
They want a simple line at Reliance, with dubious % of value added contribution, while Dassault keeps sending stuff over from France makes a killing and does not have to bother about IP shareing.

FWIW, I can tell you that the liabilities that nuclear equipment suppliers were being asked to assume on Indian contracts regardless of any negligence on the part of NNPC, were unreal and no CEO could accept them.

What are these clauses for the MMRCA? Go ahead and tell us. Let them out. You wont be able to. Because so far we have only been given a snake oil media driven perception that these clauses are extraordinarily stringent and only by going to Reliance will Dassault accept them. There is a third way, relax the clauses and work with HAL. Simpler. Why is this message not tomtommed enough? Because basically Dassault is seeking to game the deal and change the rules to its industrial benefit after winning the MMRCA. Typical.

What sucks for them though is that EF is still around. Not that'll do better, but hey - Dassault loses.

Separately, it would be easier to accept the PSUs as the silent, wronged party unable to pipe up on their own behalf if they had a track record. They don't and the 'trust us' part is getting difficult to accept. The list is long and the delays longer.

What track record are you talking about? What do you and many of our beloved posters on BRF who pop in and out, know about any track record of any PSU? Do you think the Agnis, the Prithvis, the umpteen radars and EW items came without the DPSUs? They were the ones willing to swallow the hit to their OpEx and keep lines open for a decade plus till tests were finally done. Which is why, dont kick the DPSUs without understanding what role they play in the Indian MIC.

This despite the amount of red tapism imposed by the bureaucrats, services and politicians to deliberately keep the PSUs/entire MIC down to size? Its a money earner, pure and simple. And over ambitious PSUs out to take over the world, will be run by professionals and not people deputed from the MOD.

But thats not the problem. Your issue is that you are simply unable to understand the technology side of the game. What HAL will get with the Rafale are the state of the art measuring, design (for modification), jigs (for manufacture/test) and tons of assorted machinery with processes to manufacture state of the art components and assemble them. Over time, HAL will apply them to other programs. Its their right. Dassault does not want that. They don't want a LCA with a smoother finish because HAL took a contour machining device and put it to the LCA. They dont want a FGFA with a better serviceability because HAL technicians adapted a method from the Rafale to inspect Russian engines. No, they want a ringfenced program, run by an expat, which will be as far as possible from other ongoing Indian programs, and which they can closely monitor.

Defeating the entire purpose of the MMRCA. We are acquiring aviation technologies not just a plane. Dassault knew it, but in typical fashion are trying last minute armtwisting.

HAL is unable to deliver a prop driven trainer a/c successor to the HT2?.

HAL could clearly come up with a successor if it had been allowed to. Here is what 90% of the posters here dont understand about HAL. Till the 90's HAL was run by babus from the MOD. It bred a culture where decision making on any new product/service was automatically sent to the MOD. Only now, the organization is gaining autonomy from the stifling hold of both the MOD and the services (which regard HAL as their back end & don't give a fig about working with it, as versus HAL working for them and getting them whatever they need, whenever they need it).

To help them improve, it is important to have competitors even public ones.

Of course, but that competitor has to be Indian, chosen by an Indian process and not shortcut into Indian procurement by savvy moves from a firm with somewhat dubious rep and an airframer seeking an advantage.

No one expects ToT on the MMRCA or even the PAK-FA.

Please educate yourself. The DPP clearly specifies a TOT % and indigenization component and even the level of technology transfer via processes and components. TOT is essential to both programs as the IAF wants local LRUs for independent decision making, and the MOD wants the overpriced technology to be used optimally.

n fact, no one outside of the US and maybe Russia are self-sufficient. Even on the LCA we are dependent on what 50-80% +?

Missing the point again..

Whether HAL or Reliance does the Rafale, no usable ToT that would enable us to build Rafale NG will have been imparted.

Wrong. Read Raghuk's reply above and what I wrote. This is not some airy fairy debate about building Rafale NG. This is about the actual iterative improvements possible to Indian programs which too are deemed risky by those who provide these technologies.

Only the US has the capacity and look where it's got them on JSF! By the time it's done, it'll cost $300MM per copy in then current dollars.

Actually, theres a fair lot of import content from US allies in the JSF to strike deals.

What is critical is getting an AC in the hands of the IAF ASAP. The current drama is about patronage dollars that can be directed under the ToT/SME aegis to serve political ends.

Political ends, making money etc are served when the deal is signed itself. You mix up the cart and the horse. Offsets and SMEs getting business is the plus for India which allows political interests to sell the deal. Once they get it though, entities like Dassault know they have the deal and attempt to renegotiate all the other areas where they can get away. The risk is having had the deal done, whether the Indian side has sufficient people of the right will to prevent a complete sell out.

[manum]

Dassault is not risking anything with Reliance...Infact it'll be lamb with tiger skin...The shell will be of Reliance but inside the main team of production will be of Dassault...Reliance will be only employing the third grade technicians, who'll carry the boxes around and some business management team...

Rest all top human resource, employment, know how will belong to Dassault...Its great situation for them to manipulate, but will be huge stupidity in our case...

I just don't think Reliance will be having a clue for first few years, that what exactly is happening...Till they'll realized they'll find their hands automatically feeding stuff to machines...not knowing why...

[srai]

^^^

Sounds like a "Mechanical Turk"

[chetak]

Dassault is not risking anything with Reliance...Infact it'll be lamb with tiger skin...The shell will be of Reliance but inside the main team of production will be of Dassault...Reliance will be only employing the third grade technicians, who'll carry the boxes around and some business management team...

Rest all top human resource, employment, know how will belong to Dassault...Its great situation for them to manipulate, but will be huge stupidity in our case...

I just don't think Reliance will be having a clue for first few years, that what exactly is happening...Till they'll realized they'll find their hands automatically feeding stuff to machines...not knowing why...

When dealing with the french, always look for the money trail. The frogs like money more than their mothers and lots of it.

The only way they will make money is if they have complete control over the project, way above and beyond the agreement.

HAL will not permit them to wag their tails and they know it. HAL will corner the lion's share of the profits as is their bounden right. HAL is a bad bet but much much better than reliance for India's future programs.

There will be immediate spin offs on the LCA and other programs which reliance will deny to HAL and others.

The frogs have paid off the dilliwallas and are banking on the reliance clout to bulldoze their way ahead. The frogs have forgotten more about corruption than the Indians will ever remember, we are mere bacchas in their hands.

The sole intention is now to minimize TOT or completely eliminate it altogether and keep India ever dependent on them for "modifications" and "upgrades".

reliance will simply strip HAL of the required man power by paying higher salaries and will set up their lines completely with HAL types. They have already hired many such "consultants", ex IAF, HAL and DRDO. The shadier you are, the better chances of making it through the selection process. Loyalty to the frogs is the absolute requirement and there are plenty of IAF, HAL and DRDO types willing to sell their mothers for cold cash. Since the politicos have all made cash hand over fist why should the coolie types miss out a bit of the green stuff themselves?? The sheer venality of the retired senior types has to be seen to be believed.

[manum]

+1 spoken like a true insider...


So reliance yeda bankar peda khane ki try kar raha hai..


Translation....Reliance is trying to look innocent but in fact is partner in crime...

[Singha]

...slowly the outlines of the plot are becoming clearer...

[Austin]

Which Reliance are we talking here bada bhaiya ya chota bhaiya , Bada Bhaiya has connections to the very top across all parties and is cash rich to bribe all and sundry he remains untouchable ,only a Union at HAL can prevent such take over by him.

Chota bhaiya does not have those top connection in all parties and can be contained.

[Sriman]

RIL, so bada bhai.

[manum]

RIL is a smart choice for such a joint venture on part of Dassault...than TATA or even M&M.

This is why Dassault is saying the negotiations to freeze till end of this year, They are buying time for sufficient leverage...

But I am hoping MOD is sufficiently aware of the scheme, While cant say about IAF, all they'll say is we want the Fighter on time and quality, whatever the mechanism is on part of negotiators, which I think belong to MOD and HAL.