Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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chetak
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby chetak » 07 Apr 2013 12:53

Sriman wrote:RIL, so bada bhai.

He already has a JV in Gujarat with rafale. That's why rafale is coming into the fight with big borrowed balls.

Besides, HAL gets recognized (by CEMILAC) as the design authority if they get into the manufacture which means that they can get into modifications and upgrades on their own.

HAL always charge their Services customers extortionist rates for such mods and upgrades but it will be nothing at all compared to what reliance and their frog partners will charge.

The frogs want absolute control but publicly they will couch it all in terms of diplomatic niceties and saccharine sweet talks. Much like french cusine, all show, smoke and mirrors, with no substance but with a massive bill at the end of it.

With the ensuing elections, maybe change of guard and the confusion of a new government settling down, reliance and the frogs are kind of hoping to slip unnoticed through the cracks.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Will » 07 Apr 2013 13:53

Well if any one has the clout to push such a deal through then it is Reliance. Remember how policies were changed to suit them during the telecom liberalisation under the NDA regime. Bada bhai usually floats under the radar and gets things done while chota bhai is more of show.

Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2013 14:47

Yes, please read all these claims by these foreign firms of "poor Indian PSUs" and how willing they are to collaborate with pvt sector, with a huge bag of salt. These PSUs are the very ones that were deliberately attacked by MTCR to throttle everything from test equipment to jigs to CNC machines. We developed most of them on our own anyways. Now with these large deals, all those capabilities will be rounded off to manufacture equipment like the Rafale. The result is that the western OEMs are not a pleased group, whether it be French or American or whosoever. From a Prithvi TD we have gone to the level of an Agni-V and are now developing MIRVs. From getting handme down kits, we are making own RLG. From getting obsolete radars, now we are inducting AESA systems and there are multiple programs for the type. The west's cartel creation is being busted by these mega deals which involve TOT and they are doing everything they can to lobby the Indian MOD to stop them. The offset deals were also another area selectively targeted by using retired gasbags as frontmen who kept harping on how deals with offsets are more expensive than those without, deliberately missing the point that the aim was to create a local business capability outside the DPSUs. Then they alleged it would only affect the DPSUs. Data clearly showed bulk of the deals went to private sector and not DPSUs. Even so lobbying persists to kill/dilute the offset clause, which stands at a whopping 50% at the MMRCA.
This is your money, Indian taxpayers. Get every thing its worth for.

chetak
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby chetak » 07 Apr 2013 15:31

Liberalization is being seen by many goras as an invitation for the coming of east India company v2.0.

Now that they all know the technique, they still think that the natives can be satisfied with beads and trinkets.

maculayputras among us are their willing helpers, bribed by cold cash, visas, scholarships and citizenships.

They don't seem to have really appreciated the civilizational shift that has once again come into play.

member_20292
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20292 » 07 Apr 2013 21:23

People should keep this in the back of their minds while thinking about technology.

1. Technology enables people across the world, to do so much more with their time, that everyone seeks to aquire the best.
2. In the past, and as we can see, today, the best technology used to lead to inferior numbers defeating superior, and so on.
3. In the general economic realm, one can see that the US (and other countries) have STEM programs, by which they enable people with the technical education that is required for a country to retain its technical edge over others, to stay and emigrate to the USA.
4. Apple has 130 billion $ in their bank account lying idle. :D

And ....so, Dassault or Sukhoi, or XYZ, is always going to be reluctant to share technology.

And so it must be.

When the stakes are so high, this ceases to be a gentlemans game. Unsheath your swords for Bharat Mata, boys.

This . IS. Bharat Mata !

:D

Victor
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Victor » 07 Apr 2013 21:34

karan m wrote:From a Prithvi TD we have gone to the level of an Agni-V and are now developing MIRVs. From getting handme down kits, we are making own RLG. From getting obsolete radars, now we are inducting AESA systems and there are multiple programs for the type. The west's cartel creation is being busted by these mega deals which involve TOT and they are doing everything they can to lobby the Indian MOD to stop them.

100% agree that doing it ourselves from scratch is the only thing that will give us true independence. Being spoon fed by ToT/offsets will not give us strong foundations. But we need these planes because LCA/Kaveri are nowhere in sight. So if we think the French are out to shaft us, cancel the contract and buy off the shelf. That will drastically reduce the cost of MMRCA and speed up delivery times. The money saved can be put into LCA/Kaveri. But if we go that route, the best deal around is the Super Hornet.

BTW, it is in extremely poor taste and woefully ungtrateful to denigrate the French with terms like "frogs" etc. I am not the biggest fan of the French because of how they screwed Libya, but we must remember that they saved our balls more than once when noboby else would. Like it or not, our balls are in the hands of foreigners today because we depend on them even for ordinary stuff like infantry rifles, bullets and trainer aircraft, forget fighters. This situation is not their fault but entirely ours. We should reserve our bravado for findring out why this is the case and correcting it.

Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2013 23:28

Victor wrote:100% agree that doing it ourselves from scratch is the only thing that will give us true independence. Being spoon fed by ToT/offsets will not give us strong foundations.


TOT and offsets can help in building up those strong foundations, which is why they are disliked by those supposed to provide them. In the past, there were next to no programs which could leverage that TOT, and offsets weren't there either (spreading the aerospace pie amongst many other firms and making them capable/certified). After all, if all you make is one Jaguar over a decade, another MiG-27 which has all its systems/aggregates similarly provided, what are you going to leverage that Jaguar TOT for beyond a point? But even so, that TOT was used, across many programs. Its documented but serves no purpose in re cataloguing on an open board when those very scuzz balls who sought to actively deny us tech are still operating at various levels.

The big thing about TOT which 90% of discussions miss is it enhances local serviceability and independence. If you make 80% of LRUs locally or spares then you can at least attempt to stockpile the critical rest. Otherwise, you become overdependent on any supplier.

But we need these planes because LCA/Kaveri are nowhere in sight. So if we think the French are out to shaft us, cancel the contract and buy off the shelf. That will drastically reduce the cost of MMRCA and speed up delivery times. The money saved can be put into LCA/Kaveri. But if we go that route, the best deal around is the Super Hornet.


That is incorrect. Even with the LCA/Kaveri, IAF would need these planes because the 2 front war scenario means we need aircraft with a mission radius of around 1000 odd km and capable of taking on both heavies (J11/Su27/J20/J10) class airframes and doing DPSA.
Light Combat Aircraft was designed as a 1-to-1 drop in for the MiG-21, which is why its footprint is so similar. It leverages better tech and gives a higher performance, but at the end of the day a Sukhoi can cart 8T of warload, something which a Rafale can approach, but a LCA was never meant for. The LCA will be very useful for point defence/CAP/CAS and missions over the TBA/FBA but the increasing numbers of heavy/medium fighters in the OpFor inventory mean, that especially against the PLAAF, we need heavier fighters too.

BTW, it is in extremely poor taste and woefully ungtrateful to denigrate the French with terms like "frogs" etc.


Huh?? When did I call the French frogs?? You are just accusing me of something that I didn't do.

That said, I think you are being too sensitive here to French concerns etc. They are a hard nosed mercenary group which wants business. Selling Pak Agostas and us Scorpenes. Willing to sell Pakistan JF17 upgrade kits, till the former ran out of money. Coming to denigration - I wouldnt bother too much about that. As they do have a heavy dose of sanctimony which their Govt trots out whenever possible. Still remember how they hectored us over our internal affairs in Orissa. When was the last time we told them off over their treatment of the Roma? This is essentially the problem with our foreign policy. We are beholden to all these western states, which having committed the worst crimes known to humanity, routinely treat us like a low born invited to the feudal mansion, all the time hectoring us about equality, freedom and so forth.

I am not the biggest fan of the French because of how they screwed Libya, but we must remember that they saved our balls more than once when noboby else would.


The French haven't ever saved our balls, lets be clear here. Our balls were saved entirely by Indian grit and Indian blood, and if there were no Mirages, then the MiG pilots would have paid the due and done their job. The IAF was facing French Mistrals at Kargil, and the IN French Exocets, even if the Pakistanis were at the receiving end of Mirages.

The likes of Thapar, Kenguruse, Acharya - men from Indias North, East, South - pan India - paid the price to secure our territory, not the French. The French sold us tools which we employed as we chose. If not them, somebody else would.

Like it or not, our balls are in the hands of foreigners today because we depend on them even for ordinary stuff like infantry rifles, bullets and trainer aircraft, forget fighters. This situation is not their fault but entirely ours. We should reserve our bravado for findring out why this is the case and correcting it.


The situation is exacerbated by the manner in which these arms cartels
- Impose sanctions to deny tech
- Routinely bust their own rules etc when the dollars are flaunted
- Seek to renegotiate/blatantly break the agreed upon original agreements to get their tech out of grubby third world hands.

Its not bravado to see how completely unethical and brazen their scuzzball actions are

While you have been pouring scorn on Indian organizations for not being "all that they can be", please understand that decisions like the ones you want, are often beyond the grade of the Indian organizations and are driven by political agendas, influenced by the lobbying of these aforesaid foreign OEMs.

Go to the latest AIN and you'll see an anonymous (who else) foreign official claiming that if "restrictive rules" on FDI were lifted the latest tech would flow into India, the same old, same old.

If there is anything that scares these OEMs, its the Indians getting their hands on the stuff they deserve, having paid for it, and then using it as they see fit. Hence all these attempts to get foreign subsidiaries subject to original home law into India and operate with a different set of rules and restrictions, using India's engineering capability at the coolie level. Whereas the entire objective of offsets is to create a set of Indian aerospace firms which can develop inhouse capabilities and be available for Indian programs as need be.

Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2013 23:34

chetak wrote:Liberalization is being seen by many goras as an invitation for the coming of east India company v2.0.

Now that they all know the technique, they still think that the natives can be satisfied with beads and trinkets.

maculayputras among us are their willing helpers, bribed by cold cash, visas, scholarships and citizenships.

They don't seem to have really appreciated the civilizational shift that has once again come into play.


Agreed.

The sad thing is the complete mismanagement of the economy over the past 8 years by the very lords of the manor who have made an art of corruption, have again uncorked the desperation amongst others who see any attempt to make money as a plus.

India has been hemorrhaging money in corrupt yojana this, yojana that. If that was instead used for infrastructure and vocational skills, then the world would be beating a place to India's door and automatically, the bargaining power of these snake-oil merchants would reduce.

Instead the infrastructure in India resembles that of civil war struck African nations in many cities, garbage is piled up, slums/squatters everywhere, electricity and water are luxuries for many....and despite this India manages to launch Agnis and Brahmos. The question to ask is if we had better leadership, the amount that would be achieved would be incredible.

member_20292
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_20292 » 07 Apr 2013 23:59

nice series of posts karan m.

you re not seen around these part too often these days though?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Krishnakg » 08 Apr 2013 00:11

^^ Well thought out, series of candid posts by "Karan M". Your contributions to the topic and forum are appreciated.

Victor
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Victor » 08 Apr 2013 01:54

Karan M wrote:TOT and offsets can help in building up those strong foundations, which is why they are disliked by those supposed to provide them.

Arre bhai, agreed but what are we going to do about it if they don't want to give it to us? That is what we are trying to figure out no?


That is incorrect. Even with the LCA/Kaveri, IAF would need these planes because the 2 front war scenario means we need aircraft with a mission radius of around 1000 odd km and capable of taking on both heavies (J11/Su27/J20/J10) class airframes and doing DPSA.

I disagree. No matter how we try to paint it, LCA/Kaveri non-appearance is the main reason for MMRCA to plug in the gaps left by MiG-21s that are gasping on their last few legs. It does us no good to obfuscate and try and hide/rationalize this gaping failure. A working LCA would free up the Sukhois to take on the heavies and do DPSA.


Huh?? When did I call the French frogs?? You are just accusing me of something that I didn't do.

Sorry, my bad. It was our friend chetak and I should have quoted him.

The French haven't ever saved our balls,

Forgotten Kargil already have we? If France had not given us clearance (and probably a lot more) to fit Israeli and Russian laser-guided bombs to the Mirage 2k, we would not have been able to dislodge the pakis, at least not without terrible further losses. Our Mig's were totally ineffective. Also, the French were the only westerners to support us after the Shakti tests and they don't have any problems with our Mirages and Rafales going nuclear. However, my point is that we show ourselves in poor light if we bad mouth others while giving a clean chit to the real culprits--ourselves.

Its not bravado to see how completely unethical and brazen their scuzzball actions are

Again, its one thing to foam at the mouth and smoke from the ears but what can we actually do about it? If we are going to be angry, I believe we should be angry at ourselves for allowing this condition to exist in the first place. Just like we should blame ourselves for being invaded and subjugated by all manner of thieves and sub-humans over the centuries. Have we really done everything we can to make sure we can make a jet engine and fighter after 70 years of independence? I think not. We still have people bellying up to protect the known national disasters that are HAL/GTRE and painting any attempt to break their monopoly as somehow anti-national "macaulayism" whatever that is.

If there is anything that scares these OEMs, its the Indians getting their hands on the stuff they deserve, having paid for it, and then using it as they see fit.

Excuse me? We deserve only what we can make ourselves with our own smarts and our own resources. The seller can and will dictate the rest or tell us to take a hike, which still could happen here. It's up to us to take it or leave it but we certainly are in no position to force the issue.

Hence all these attempts to get foreign subsidiaries subject to original home law into India and operate with a different set of rules and restrictions, using India's engineering capability at the coolie level.

In case you didn't know, Reliance is a 100% Indian company, 100% subject to Indian laws and with 100% Indian interests. It has built the world's largest petroleum refinery in less than 3 years which is running at almost 100% utilization with minimal downtime. This is a super-hightech petroleum refinery which is arguably far more complex and demanding to run than an aircraft production line. Once you do something like this, little else needs to be said and this could be one reason why Dassault chose them as a partner. Feel free to expect such a company to play second fiddle to Dassault but I expect it to manhandle Dassault if needed and squeeze every single drop of contracted ToT a hundred times more forcefully than HAL can even dream of, then absorb it and put it to use on 100% Indian fighter planes in the future a hundred times more quickly and efficiently than HAL. It is in a different class altogether. I would consider Reliance to be a far more valuable Indian asset than the deadbeat HAL any day and all sensible Indians should do so too. If Indians hold HAL up as the holy grail for Indian aerospace, we are done for, plain and simple.

the entire objective of offsets is to create a set of Indian aerospace firms which can develop inhouse capabilities and be available for Indian programs as need be.

Correct and the best way to do this is to funnel these offsets to Indian companies that have a demonstrated track record of excellence in R&D and execution, not a demonstrated track record of non-performance, under-performance and shoddiness. What am I missing?


the infrastructure in India resembles that of civil war struck African nations in many cities, garbage is piled up, slums/squatters everywhere, electricity and water are luxuries for many.

You forgot to mention the smell of sh!t and urine everywhere. This is an issue that should cause every Indian to question WTF are we doing wrong. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of insecure "Indians" pretending to be deshbhakts doing the exact opposite. Jai Ho.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2013 05:03

Victor wrote:Arre bhai, agreed but what are we going to do about it if they don't want to give it to us? That is what we are trying to figure out no?


We walk. To Eurofighter. And if not EF, then the Boeing team. Point is this deal is important to Dassault & if they want to mess up something like this, its their choice to make. We should stick to our guns and not cede an inch. Please remember Dassault does this sort of game a lot. In the LCA program, they gave us half baked info on the FBW & told the ADA team, that it didnt matter what ADA thought as Delhi would swing them the deal (Source: SR Valluri in Vayu, reminiscing about the LCA). That FBW deal ultimately went to the US (Germany lost out because of inexperience). Point is we do have a good reason to play hard ball.

disagree. No matter how we try to paint it, LCA/Kaveri non-appearance is the main reason for MMRCA to plug in the gaps left by MiG-21s that are gasping on their last few legs. It does us no good to obfuscate and try and hide/rationalize this gaping failure. A working LCA would free up the Sukhois to take on the heavies and do DPSA.


These are your opinions and adjectives (obfuscation/hide/rationalize etc) but the facts are different. The IAF has been asking for the MMRCA since the mid-80s. The Standing Committee of Defence reports on what the IAF classes its fighters as - light, medium and heavy. As a result of which IAF plans are for around 270 Su-30 MKIs, roughly equal number of mediums (126 Rafales, with 100 Jaguars and around 100 Mirages/MiG-29 upgrades) with the rest made up of Light combat aircraft (40 MK-1, 83-124 MK2). Like it or not, the IAF has moved to a heavier, longer ranged force. They lack numbers and need larger numbers of more powerful platforms.

If you look at the LCA program, the hard facts speak for themselves. Radius of the LCA class of fighter is mentioned in the 300-400 km range, w/o tanks/IFR. In contrast, the Sukhoi achieves 1500 km. The Rafale thanks to its design, approaches the Sukhoi. That in fact is its USP.

Now do some basic calculations with the number of pylons and supporting assets (check out the number of IFR we have for instance) and it becomes rapidly evident that light fighters can no longer provide the bulk of the fleet along with Sukhois.

Even if the LCA were to arrive, the IAF would STILL ask for a medium fighter with greater performance (range/payload) than the LCA, since the MiG-21 class fighter is designed to operate within limited ranges & is at risk when asked to divert from FOB, has to loiter for extended periods (a key requirement when taking out missile carriers or in extended SEAD missions, both of which are key requirements when operating against an adversary like the PLAAF).

Forgotten Kargil already have we? If France had not given us clearance (and probably a lot more) to fit Israeli and Russian laser-guided bombs to the Mirage 2k, we would not have been able to dislodge the pakis, at least not without terrible further losses. Our Mig's were totally ineffective.


Who says the French gave us clearance and we were beholden to them? Don't go by mass media rubbish. No Russian LGBs were fitted to the Mirage 2K and nor were any Israeli LGBs. The LGBs - all of 8/9 - used by the Mirage 2000 were Paveways, hand modified by IAF armorers to fit onto the Mirage 2000, rapidly qualified in India and with Israeli Litening pods integrated on fast track basis. The bombs used at Muntho Dhalo were Spanish 250 kg bombs originally acquired for the Ajeet. And FYI, the Mirages, propaganda apart, pulled only a fraction of the missions the MiGs did. It was a MiG-25 pilot who flew rock steady and under the Stinger envelope to get the high resolution pics. It were MiG-29s which pulled CAPs. MiG-23 flew EW missions. MiG-27 and MiG-21s flew high risk rocket attack profiles, safeguarding their EO PGMs for an all out war. To judge by your posts, the Mirage 2000s single handedly won us the Kargil war.

And for all the air action, it was the tip of the spear, namely our infantry, backed by huge amounts of artillery, that actually won us Kargil. Lets not overplay the French angle, it was a feel good positive psy-ops to state the IAF had sophisticated aircraft in its inventory, but it only goes so far.

Also, the French were the only westerners to support us after the Shakti tests


Did they do us a favor? Or were they concerned about losing access to a future market?

and they don't have any problems with our Mirages and Rafales going nuclear.


Again, a USP for them to hard sell their products. Otherwise, why shouldnt we buy Russian? They'd be the only ones with no issues.

However, my point is that we show ourselves in poor light if we bad mouth others while giving a clean chit to the real culprits--ourselves.


Sorry, but why this self flagellation? We are not the only culprits here. The west (including the French) has been part and parcel of putting India specific embargos, happily doing everything and anything to deny India the tech it requires and then seeking to take our money to sell us 2nd Gen hand me downs. France keeps RDY equipped Mirage 2000s and sells us RDM equipped Mirage 2000-Hs. Do you think this requires some sort of gratefulness on our part? Or an acknowledgement that the French are hard nosed businessmen and need to be treated as such?

Again, its one thing to foam at the mouth and smoke from the ears but what can we actually do about it?


Who exactly is foaming at the mouth here? These are adjectives you are employing, and for no reason that I can see. The rest of us are merely noting that the French are trying to as usual revise a done deal to their benefit, and we should do what it takes to make sure our interests are served. Nothing particularly against France, but at the same time, no particular love for them either.

If we are going to be angry, I believe we should be angry at ourselves for allowing this condition to exist in the first place. Just like we should blame ourselves for being invaded and subjugated by all manner of thieves and sub-humans over the centuries.


That falls well in line with the belief that only if we were perfect, things would be ok. However, even if we were the toughest, most self aware breed of people, these things would continue to happen. No empire lasts forever and our ancient civilization fell when it became too focused on philosophy as versus practicality. But we survived. And hopefully as the Indian population becomes more educated, rises on Maslows hierarchy, it too will expect more of its leaders, and demand more. But that does not mean we excuse the crooks who make use of our weakness, however self inflicted it may be and on top of it, seek to influence that weakness to continue. There really are no ifs and buts here. If one is weak and unable to defend oneself, that does not really excuse the neighbourhood thugs and bullies for being what they are and taking advantage of the weak either right? Both situations exist hand in glove. We can improve, but we need to realize we are dealing with hypocrites.

Take the United States for instance as an example of arguably the best there is. Rule of law, yes. Politicians subservient to the public yes. Yet, an out of control MIC, massive exodus of money thanks to a broken financial system, near non functional healthcare system in some areas, worthless expeditionary wars wasting money and crippling otherwise healthy American citizens. This, from a nation, that has had enough time to get things right and started from a higher baseline. My point is there is a lot that is wrong in India, but its by no means unique to our Indian genome, though understandably to those of us (like you and I) the current situation is frustrating.

Have we really done everything we can to make sure we can make a jet engine and fighter after 70 years of independence? I think not. We still have people bellying up to protect the known national disasters that are HAL/GTRE and painting any attempt to break their monopoly as somehow anti-national "macaulayism" whatever that is.


The point is that simply, to the GOI neither HAL or GTRE were necessary as you and I deem them to be. Tavleen Singh makes an important point in Durbar that the Congress never really invested in cities, because the votes were from rural areas. Similarly, there was no gain in making a proper MIC fully funded and autonomous.

In resource constrained states - like India was - the only time a MIC thrives is if the state is militaristic. Thats China, thats ex South Africa (Apartheid days), thats Israel, thats NoKo. They anticipate an existential crisis and respond accordingly. In India, we have never had that mindset. Also, in what way is having a state owned monopoloy, or duopoly a drag on weapons development. Funding and prioritization are what are required. The Soviet Union is a perfect example.

Anyways, the issue today, about creating competitors to HAL/GTRE is about making the right competitors. Merely choosing a RIL, and having them propped up, is the wrong way to go. Its just making a new cartel, and unlike HAL, RIL will be much more adept at playing the my way or the highway game. Please take a look at this satirical article to understand the common perception in India:http://www.fakingnews.com/2012/10/iim-student-gets-pre-placement-offer-of-being-oil-minister-by-reliance/

Excuse me? We deserve only what we can make ourselves with our own smarts and our own resources. The seller can and will dictate the rest or tell us to take a hike, which still could happen here. It's up to us to take it or leave it but we certainly are in no position to force the issue.


Why are we in no position to force the issue? What exactly is with your sympathy for these guys who agree to sell stuff and then try to negotiate their own way out of it? Do you seriously think the Israelis developed their industry on entirely their own smarts or the Russians developed their first jet engine through their own genius? We have every right to get every bit of technology that we pay for. If the seller can and will dictate the rest, we will find a new seller. Thats our prerogative. To prevent this, cartels like MTCR were formed, to prevent business from giving away tech for the profit motive, to artificially lock in several states into 2nd tier status, while the haves played/shared tech with each other. Using our money, we should break this, and do whatever it takes to get our moneys worth.

In case you didn't know, Reliance is a 100% Indian company, 100% subject to Indian laws and with 100% Indian interests. It has built the world's largest petroleum refinery in less than 3 years which is running at almost 100% utilization with minimal downtime. This is a super-hightech petroleum refinery which is arguably far more complex and demanding to run than an aircraft production line.


Missing the point. The issue is not of how great Reliance is in setting up a line. The issue is of what happens to all the tech Reliance acquired to set up the line and how it is leveraged and whether the Reliance - D JV is firmly in Reliance control. Currently HAL has multiple complexes working for Sukhoi, ALH, LCA, Hawk & have multiple COE for aggregates and avionics. As a result of which they do a lot of work for DRDO/ISRO and many other programs. Its their choice to make, driven by GOI priorities. That is not something which can be said necessarily of a program driven by a foreign OEM which seeks to protect its own interests despite agreeing to a deal, where TOT was part and parcel of the deal. And then works it with a company with zero experience in setting up an aircraft line.

Once you do something like this, little else needs to be said and this could be one reason why Dassault chose them as a partner.


Again, you are missing the point here.. If engineering competence was the yardstick, then both the TATAs and L&T rank above RIL in terms of defence related engineering capabilities. You might also want to consider whom they work for, and as a result of which they'd be considered a risk as much as HAL is.

Feel free to expect such a company to play second fiddle to Dassault but I expect it to manhandle Dassault if needed and squeeze every single drop of contracted ToT a hundred times more forcefully than HAL can even dream of, then absorb it and put it to use on 100% Indian fighter planes in the future a hundred times more quickly and efficiently than HAL.


That's speculation at this point, given RIL has yet to make a single airframe let alone a Rafale.

It is in a different class altogether. I would consider Reliance to be a far more valuable Indian asset than the deadbeat HAL any day and all sensible Indians should do so too. If Indians hold HAL up as the holy grail for Indian aerospace, we are done for, plain and simple.


And here, you are interjecting your opinions as facts. "Deadbeat HAL", "far more valuable Indian asset" etc. Sorry, but against these sort of subjective arguments, one really cant debate seriously as its just opinions we get down to.

Correct and the best way to do this is to funnel these offsets to Indian companies that have a demonstrated track record of excellence in R&D and execution, not a demonstrated track record of non-performance, under-performance and shoddiness. What am I missing?


What you are missing is that most Indian companies which have received offset contracts are actually private sector, and not all of them have a demonstrated record of excellence in R&D and execution either, since the entire purpose of offsets is to grow an aerospace sector, so some one will start from a limited base. Not parcel out contracts to large industrial houses which are often risk averse.

You forgot to mention the smell of sh!t and urine everywhere. This is an issue that should cause every Indian to question WTF are we doing wrong. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of insecure "Indians" pretending to be deshbhakts doing the exact opposite. Jai Ho.


Educated Indians do question what is wrong, but both cognitive bias (the ruling party has long sold the idea that it is uber liberal which appeals to the people like us demographic and hence the only choice there is - see the visceral reaction of some of our super educated elite on this board to both the NDA/Opposition and the regional parties) and the caste obsession of other portions of India (of which many people who are locked into a lower economic strata seek comfort with their immediate demographic groups) has meant the politics of patronage take precedence over the politics of development.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2013 05:17

Mahadevbhu and KrishnaKg, thanks for your kind words.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Apr 2013 05:19

@KaranM ^^^: Sorry but your arguments do not compute. I hope I am wrong but you are defending PSUs at the expense of IAF capability. That would be wrong.

I am sure you are not an apologist for for HAL, but no way Dassault would risk this contract for the sake of screwing India and denying ToT.

Please understand ( and I think you can) that this deal is all screwdriver CKD stuff. Dassault has zero confidence in HAL and given their track record (or lack thereof) to be able to manage the integration of the offsets. Dassault or anyone else would not want to be accountable for things over which they do not have total control.

The offsets are mickey mouse stuff. There is simply not the capacity on the Indian SME side to absorb the tech. Example: even the Gripen folks bought canopies from outside Sweden.

The EF alternative you hint at in case Dassault falters, is naive. In game theory, EF then gets in the position of TINA (There is no alternative). You're going to be implicitly agreeing the $5MM overage per unit and start negotiating from there.

Your lament that India needs this and wants that and should get x is laudable but not IMHO realistic.

The points you've made to others about Boeing etc. are also unrealistic, there will be PILs and lawsuits galore. Not to mention EUMA. Please educate yourself on the cascading consequences.

We are on the same side but the IAF needs a/c now not the promises of a HAL and DPSU that are patronage driven. They cannot deliver basics.

India is not in control and it's obvious to vendors and a rebound to the losers in the down select is catering to their wet dreams.

Please think through the negotiation dynamic. Again.
Last edited by Cosmo_R on 08 Apr 2013 05:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cybaru » 08 Apr 2013 05:41

If you are not going to get TOT or we can't use the rafale tech anywhere else, then can this puppy and just go alone. The super 30 Upgrade will fare well for us for a while. ASEA Radar, Siva Pod & KH-31 combo should be enough to do any SEAD work. Order another 2 squadrons and that will tide us by till the LCA/FGFA start coming online. This puppy only really has limited range unless a whole bunch of external tanks are used. The upgraded Mirage/Mig/Jag will do by us fine. Recession is here and there really is no need for these planes.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2013 05:41

I would be far more comfortable if the French pick up someone other than RIL.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Apr 2013 05:43

Cybaru wrote:If you are not going to get TOT or we can't use the rafale tech anywhere else, then can this puppy and just go alone. The super 30 Upgrade will fare well for us for a while. ASEA Radar, Siva Pod & KH-31 combo should be enough to do any SEAD work. Order another 2 squadrons and that will tide us by till the LCA/FGFA start coming online. This puppy only really has limited range unless a whole bunch of external tanks are used. The upgraded Mirage/Mig/Jag will do by us fine. Recession is here and there really is no need for these planes.


Sure, just get the IAF to go along with that and accept the response as to what they can and cannot do with what they get.
Last edited by Cosmo_R on 08 Apr 2013 06:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Apr 2013 05:46

NRao wrote:I would be far more comfortable if the French pick up someone other than RIL.


Me too but then anyone but HAL also.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2013 06:12

I tend to trust HAl a lot more than RIL.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Apr 2013 06:23

NRao wrote:I tend to trust HAl a lot more than RIL.


So you're voting for HAL

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2013 07:09

Cosmo_R wrote:
NRao wrote:I tend to trust HAl a lot more than RIL.


So you're voting for HAL


It is an anti-RIL vote. For RIL is toooooo close to Mataji and group, Inc. They will find a way to skim the milk. No two ways about it. And both Dassault and RIL are crooked.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Victor » 08 Apr 2013 09:26

Karan M wrote:The IAF has been asking for the MMRCA since the mid-80s.

Please. The term MMRCA came into being only in 2004 after the delay in getting a MiG-21 replacement confronted the IAF with the need to also replace their Jag and Mig-27 strike aircraft nearing retirement. Before that, the requirement was for a 20-ton fighter to replace the Mig-21s which were then being cannibalized due to lack of spares. All in all, a dismal project planning fiasco of the highest order and one that we should be ashamed of. Not so much because we announced ourselves as being incapable of planning (who cares) but because so many young pilots died due to the stupidity.

To judge by your posts, the Mirage 2000s single handedly won us the Kargil war.

You can judge my post any way you want but I was following every move during Kargil right here on BR and remember clearly when and how the Mirages helped us turn the corner. As any cursory reading will show, those LGB strikes broke the camel's back. Obviously, this does not minimize the roles of other IAF aircraft and crew or the soldiers' sacrifices, it took all of them to achieve the end and Mirage could not have done it all by itself. However, without the LGB strikes, we would have suffered an intolerable amount more. And while it's nice to believe that "IAF armorers hand-modified the Paveways to fit the Mirage" even when they had never seen a Paveway before in their lives, it is extremely ungrateful to not believe that the French helped us do it to their own planes. Nobody, least of of India, is going to publish the inside story any time soon so let's keep that aside shall we? What we do know for sure is that the IAF wanted to buy nothing but Mirages after Kargil and this deep trust spilled over to its replacement, the Rafale.

Sorry, but why this self flagellation?

Is that what you call it? When things go wrong, I look at myself first because I know that whining about others is useless to the desired result. The rest is hard nosed business as you say yourself.

We can improve, but we need to realize we are dealing with hypocrites.

I consider my fish-wallah to be a born thug and hypocrite but I learned to spot the rotten-but-fresh-looking fish long ago. Now when he sees me coming, he'll put all the good stuff on top so as not to waste time and we get to business right away. Point is, what's so special about this?

Funding and prioritization are what are required. The Soviet Union is a perfect example.

That's so utterly simplistic my friend. In additon to funding and prioritization, we need another two for success: reward and punishment. In India's PSUs, we have NONE of these four basic requirements. If we want to see what success looks like, look no further than Reliance (or Tata, M&M, L&T, Kirloskar...).

Please take a look at this satirical article to understand the common perception in India:http://www.fakingnews.com/2012/10/iim-student-gets-pre-placement-offer-of-being-oil-minister-by-reliance/

The same place also has this farticle: "Arundhati Roy to help Biharis feel paranoid like crazy." Enjoy.

Why are we in no position to force the issue?

What will we do to force them--threaten to cancel the contract? If we are planning to play bluff, the jury is out on who is going to win that game but I actually do want to see a mard-like GoI show some steel, even if I believe HAL is a disaster. At least that would be some comfort.

What exactly is with your sympathy for these guys...We have every right to get every bit of technology that we pay for

My sympathy for who, the French? You got me wrong--I want to make sure we really do get everything we pay for. I'm just 99.99% sure that HAL can't do it properly and 98% sure that Reliance (or Tata, M&M, L&T...) can. This is not because I simply have some weird dislike of HAL but because they haven't been able to do it for 70 years. Frankly, that should be enough time, don't you think? I mean, the world went from Sopwith Camel to Mars Lander in that time. HAL went from being able to make a trainer to not being able to make a trainer.

The issue is of what happens to all the tech Reliance acquired to set up the line and how it is leveraged

Correction: the issue is of what happens to the tech GoI acquired and what GoI and IAF orders Reliance to do with it. Reliance is not paying for the Rafales and they will have to answer to GoI and IAF at every step--before, during and after the contract. Any ToT given belongs to India, not Reliance.

both the TATAs and L&T rank above RIL in terms of defence related engineering capabilities

Ah, defence related but not core engineering capabilities. Could it be that Dassault wanted a company more than competent enough but not already beholden to another defence partner?

That's speculation at this point, given RIL has yet to make a single airframe let alone a Rafale.

Not speculation but very well calculated guess--Reliance never in its short life ever made an oil refinery either, then one day...boom!...they made the biggest one in the world in record time.

Sorry, but against these sort of subjective arguments, one really cant debate seriously

These are not subjective arguments but statements of fact because we have extremely objective successes from our private companies on the one hand and non-performance from the DPSUs on the other. There is no way to underline this enough and one really wonders--when will we get this?
Last edited by Victor on 08 Apr 2013 09:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby venku_Raj » 08 Apr 2013 09:29

Serious differences crop up in fighter aircraft deal


Serious differences have cropped up in the contract negotiations between the Defence Ministry and French firm Dassault Aviation selected for the 126 fighter aircraft deal threatening to delay the country’s largest one-time military acquisition.

Dassault has made it clear that it was “technically and practically not feasible to stick to the present obligations”, as it is wary of encountering the fate of British telecom company Vodafone, which is facing problems over taxation issues.

In the contract, Dassault wants to be held responsible for only the first 18 aircraft to be supplied by it along with the kits to be supplied by it for the remaining 108 aircraft to be produced by the HAL in India but the Defence Ministry wants it to take responsibility for the quality and timely delivery of all the 126 aircraft.

The Defence Ministry is insisting that Dassault takes the overall responsibility of the contract while the French firm has told it that it was “technically and practically not feasible” to stick to the present obligations, sources told PTI here.

The French firm also does not want to be held responsible for the delays in the delivery of the aircraft to be manufactured by the HAL and has told the Ministry that it cannot be held responsible for paying the liquidity damages in case there are delays by HAL, they said.

Dassault fears it may land up in a Vodafone-like situation in terms of taxation for transfer pricing if it agrees with present obligations and such a thing can impact it adversely in a big way, sources said.


Dassault has suggested an “umbrella contract” to be signed for the deal under which two separate contracts can be inked including one for payment in Euros for the French firm and the other with HAL for which payments would be made in Rupees, the sources said.

The Ministry has, however, expressed inability to agree on these terms as it would be in deviation from the conditions mentioned in the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the procurement. The base price for the deal was $10 billion and contractual negotiations are underway to determine the final amount to be paid by India for the aircraft. Soon after the Rafale fighter jet was shortlisted by IAF in 2012, Dassault Aviation has been raising questions about the capabilities and the role of HAL in the contract for 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA).

The Defence Ministry had earlier also rejected Dassault’s demand for making it the lead integrator for the 108 aircraft to be produced in India as the RFP for the tender has specifically given that responsibility to the HAL.


LINK

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 08 Apr 2013 09:33

Reading today’s ToI where it clearly states that Dassault will be responsible for the 18 aircraft that they deliver, and the materiel that they give HAL for whatever ToT we are supposed to get.

On the other hand, I have seen how the politicisation of our PSU’s and DPSU’s has affected the efficiency of these organisations, from what I saw in the 80’s. Many such companies come to mind.

If I were to put myself in Dassault’s shoes, how can I be responsible for the final a/c rolled out by HAL? How can I pay for any mistakes done on the shop floor? It doesn’t make business sense.

I have faced that very clause myself, in my working days as a vendor. My company used to tell me “Get that clause removed, or no deal”. It wasn’t arrogance. It was the fact that without the authority, how could we be held accountable and financially penalised for work we were not going to do?

So the MoD, in including such a clause, is actually encouraging what many have bemoaned on this and other threads, regarding the less than acceptable quality and productivity standards of these organisations. Logically, the MoD is ensuring that the ultimate assembler/manufacturer. e. HAL is not accountable. If an a/c fails due to the inputs, and only the inputs of HAL, Dassault shouldn’t pay. But, Dassault is agreeing to, as it should, to be responsible for the failure of anything it manufactures and supplies.

Somewhere, some smart private company cookie has caught onto this, resulting in a Dassault/Pvt. company JV, where Dassault will be in technical control. Such technical control then, may defeat the full intent of ToT, where we get less than we want. Games been played!

JME (Just My Experience)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 08 Apr 2013 09:50

It was supposedly in the RFP, why did they not object then?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 08 Apr 2013 10:19

NRao wrote:It was supposedly in the RFP, why did they not object then?


Very pertinent question.

In such a big RFP, a lot of answers are not simple Y and N.

My answer would have been : "Yes, subject to definition of roles". And if the role gives me no authority but burdens me with responsibility then it is nada, kaput, no way.

Cheers,

JMS (Just My Salesmanship)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Victor » 08 Apr 2013 10:25

Then 5 contenders missed it in the RFP because none of them would be OK with it. Not counting Russia.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 08 Apr 2013 10:32

The RFP for MMRCA is it in the open to know what was in it and what was not ? I havent seen the MMRCA RFP till date.

What Dassult can do is put in place the Process , QC , QA in that they use at their own factory to build Rafale and they can also ensure that the components they supply are compliant and works as expected within the warranty/gurantee period.

I am sure Dassult cannot gurantee that all the remaining MMRCA built at HAL will be its final responsibility , that responsibility should be of HAL to ensure they comply with the laid process all the time without any deviation.

If MOD wants Dassult to be responsible for all the MMRCA they build then let Dassult build all of them and be held accountable for any flaws they can be held accountable for as part of building and certifying each frame.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby viveks » 08 Apr 2013 10:35

let is c how dynamic & resolute Antony is push this deal. Tot of rafale is by far a huge absorption for indian industry fellas.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2013 10:55

I am getting the strong feeling we will evenually end up with super hornets under FMS , all made in St.Louis or wherever and ofcourse no technology absorption even in manufacturing.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 08 Apr 2013 11:03

If i am not wrong the TOT for MMRCA is low even lower than MKI deal but Offset component is high which is 50 % of the deal

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Ganesh_S » 08 Apr 2013 11:11

Rafale does supercruise.

More significantly, it can super-
cruise in dry power, even with four missiles and a belly drop
tank


http://www.dassault-aviation.com/filead ... e_nr_8.pdf

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2013 11:14

Austin wrote:If i am not wrong the TOT for MMRCA is low even lower than MKI deal but Offset component is high which is 50 % of the deal


boeing has a wide footprint and should not have big issue meeting the offset clauses. atleast not any more than dassault.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 08 Apr 2013 11:34

Victor wrote:Then 5 contenders missed it in the RFP because none of them would be OK with it. Not counting Russia.


You are right Victor. No western auditor would approve this clause becase the monetay liabilities and assocaited guarantees incorporate amounts to be paid for no fault of the vendor.

by MoD accepting the fact of accountability and responsibility being logically assigned to Dassault/vendor and HAL, we are actually pulling up our socks to make babudom, PSU/DPSU management become more professional and guarantee their side of their work.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby rajanb » 08 Apr 2013 11:40

Austin wrote:The RFP for MMRCA is it in the open to know what was in it and what was not ? I havent seen the MMRCA RFP till date.

What Dassult can do is put in place the Process , QC , QA in that they use at their own factory to build Rafale and they can also ensure that the components they supply are compliant and works as expected within the warranty/gurantee period.

I am sure Dassult cannot gurantee that all the remaining MMRCA built at HAL will be its final responsibility , that responsibility should be of HAL to ensure they comply with the laid process all the time without any deviation.

If MOD wants Dassult to be responsible for all the MMRCA they build then let Dassult build all of them and be held accountable for any flaws they can be held accountable for as part of building and certifying each frame.


+1

Or, have a 51% stake by the govt. in the Private/Dassault JV so we can ensure Tot, Dassault can ensure quality and the Private can ensure better management practises.

This would be a better model, though not perfect, in improving our Military Industry. But we have no time for this alternative. :-?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby alexis » 08 Apr 2013 12:14

We dont exactly understand the issue now. If Rafale believes HAL cant absorb ToT but RIL can, then it is bunkum. If the issue is only about accountability, then HAL should stand up and say that they are accountable for parts produced by them. I agree with Rafale that they cant be accountable for parts produced by HAL; however, if it was in the contract earlier, they should have raised it earlier.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 08 Apr 2013 12:34

The issue is not about TOT here that is something some one put it up as a theory.

The news posted in previous page is about meeting deadline delivery schedule met by HAL and subsequent damage/penalty that Dassult may have to pay for it.

I think its quite fair and square that Dassult cant be held accountable for delays at HAL , We know that HAL also experienced delay in building Su-30MKI and the number it is suppose to build each year and Quality issue.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby alexis » 08 Apr 2013 12:40

HAL should be made accountable for any mistakes or delays attributable to it. HAL actually should give counter guarantee to Dassault that they would adhere to agreed timelines and quality. If HAL cannot, we need to either find an Indian party who can do it or scrap the offset requirements and ask Dassault to reduce prices.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 08 Apr 2013 12:50

alexis wrote:HAL should be made accountable for any mistakes or delays attributable to it. HAL actually should give counter guarantee to Dassault that they would adhere to agreed timelines and quality. If HAL cannot, we need to either find an Indian party who can do it or scrap the offset requirements and ask Dassault to reduce prices.


Thats the most difficult thing for any organisation to achieve forget HAL which work in their own timelines. There can be delays due to n mumber of reason some which can be within their control some which cant be ...for eg an issue like Delay in absorption of TOT and subsequenty delays in making those compoments in India from indian sourced material can lead to delay and there can be other reasons too.

Aircraft building is a complex exercise involving hundreds of vendors and delays are inevitable.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kartik » 08 Apr 2013 14:15

Austin wrote:Aircraft building is a complex exercise involving hundreds of vendors and delays are inevitable.


And yet Dassault expected the MoD and others to believe that Reliance, a firm that hasn't even assembled a Hansa like aircraft, will within 3 years be able to absorb the requisite knowledge to build Rafales.
:roll:

This was complete hogwash and was meant to basically just increase their own workshare by having an even larger portion of the Rafale numbers built by them in kit form. Then Reliance would bolt and rivet them together and one of the primary reasons for the MRCA- that of gaining useful manufacturing technology for future programs, would be diluted.

Reliance has zero infrastructure to test let alone assemble turbofan engines, radars, structures and the hundreds of other assemblies on a fighter and somehow they're magically better than HAL just because they're a private enterprise? The only advantage that Reliance has in this matter is a complete and utter lack of ethics and a wide network of contacts who can sabotage the entire process by bribing MoD and IAF officials. Had Dassault even asked for TAAL to be their primary partner in India, it would seem somewhat possible, but Reliance? totally absurd.


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