Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

[Austin]

If not reliance which Indian company has any experience building aircraft and even then a fighter aircraft of 4th Gen , None.

So the issue would have persisted be it reliance , tata ,L&T or Mahindra.

If MOD does not want Pvt sec to be involved it can just let HAL build it.

[nits]

Mahindra has experience in Aircraft manufacturing;

http://www.mahindra.com/What-We-Do/Aero ... s/Aircraft

[Austin]

Thats good but not good enough , Making Rafale is a different ball game just like making MKI or something , Right now only HAL will have the resources to do it , All private player will be new to the game.

I think the best bet now to involve private players is to let HAL subcontract components to Pvt Players depending on what they can do and then HAL manage the final assembly etc

[NRao]

IF we can trust RIL to deliver the Rafale, then we should trust either Tata/L&T/M&M twice that much.

RIL is a bad choice in the long run.

[shiv]

Mahindra has experience in Aircraft manufacturing;

http://www.mahindra.com/What-We-Do/Aero ... s/Aircraft

No they don't. They just took over an Australian factory. If they stick with this business for a decade or two they will have "experience". Right now their experience is automobiles, mergers and acquisitions

[kmc_chacko]

It is better to contact EF for their approach towards HAL

[karan_mc]

Daily Pionner has reported that IAF will opt for 50 Sukhoi 30 directly from Russia if the Deal is a No Go . it seems like MMRCA is heading towards Make or Break Phase

[Singha]

I am all for break now. even if we somehow drag dassault by their tail ass-backwards and tie them to HAL, their intentions are very clear about not sharing anything much, playing control games , etc etc. to be fair all the others are also like that notwithstanding TALL promises of "we will teach you how to build a saturn-V rocket using parts from the local junkyard onlee". atleast sukhoi is a known devil with a already established process at HAL and moving towards more pindigenization using local suppliers for 100s of spares.

I would go for a mix of Super30 and Su35BM..the whole setup cost of a new assembly line, khana peena for 100s of french people to come and teach us, teething hiccups can be avoided.

we can add some addl funds to the R73 and R77 successor programs but it seems they are already funded for PAKFA as is a newer weapon to replace the bulky KH31 and KH59 family. likewise the air launch mini brahmos is already under execution for fleetwide use. fund and work astra1 and astra2 to completion. Sudarshan is nearing ioc. it will be enough.

we can always buy smart munitions on the cheap from khan bahadur...its factories are always churning out ever more impressive kit on that front.

[koti]

I would go for a mix of Super30 and Su35BM..the whole setup cost of a new assembly line, khana peena for 100s of french people to come and teach us, teething hiccups can be avoided.

I am still in for the Rafa but if it comes down to alternatives I feel much inclined towards Mig-29UPG or Mig-35 just based on the A/C weight category,cost and commonality. Both these planes can hold their own against almost any recent A/C and have no lead time integrating them into the IAF. That said a mix of MKI and Mig-UPG/35 is also relevant by the same logic.

[Singha]

yes thats a good mix - MKI/Su35 and Mig29K/35 ... common weapons for sure. but Mig29 will need a new production line here as everything is different....we do have repair facility but thats a lot simpler than a proper production line. plus Rus is not a big Mig29 user barring their navy order, so MKI looks a secure future.

the MKI is the ideal platform to wage deep battle over tibet and western cheen.

[srin]

Daily Pionner has reported that IAF will opt for 50 Sukhoi 30 directly from Russia if the Deal is a No Go . it seems like MMRCA is heading towards Make or Break Phase

Very difficult to determine what's a bluff and what isn't. Going over this entire thing - I wonder if we made a mistake by going for 126 (+64 options) instead of 66+renewals (like we did for Hawk). With 126, there is no more carrot to lead them on. And the vendor will perceive it as "too big to be cancelled".

Another thought is that we should have bought over Mikoyan (okay, call it design bureau JV with ADA 10 years ago), but that's for another time.

[Vipul]

India, Dassault agree to set aside divergences, move ahead in other areas.

India and French firm Dassault Aviation today decided to keep aside their sharp differences over contractual obligations and move ahead on the other aspects of the deal to procure 126 multirole combat aircraft for the IAF.

During the contract negotiation committee meeting today, the two sides agreed to keep their discussions pending on the issue of having separate contracts and the role of HAL in the deal and move ahead on other things such as pricing and support services, sources told PTI here today.

Serious differences have cropped up in the contract negotiations between the Defence Ministry and the French firm, threatening to delay the country's single largest dose military acquisition.

The French firm has already agreed with the Defence Ministry's demand for having one contract with the four major firms involved in the deal, including MBDA, for the weapons package for the aircraft instead of four separate contracts, they said.

The firm is understood to have agreed to the Defence Ministry's demand on the issue after the involvement of French government.

[chetak]

If not reliance which Indian company has any experience building aircraft and even then a fighter aircraft of 4th Gen , None.

So the issue would have persisted be it reliance , tata ,L&T or Mahindra.

If MOD does not want Pvt sec to be involved it can just let HAL build it.

Nobody but nobody has the experience of HAL but unfortunately HAL has an
attitude problem. The post of chairman should go back to IAF for at least 5-10years

All private players just do not have the infrastructure and capability and will not have the same for at least for a couple of decades.

The infrastructure at some of the newer HALs are just mind blowing but the caliber of the workers remains at the same mediocre level.

[ajay_hk]

Daily Pionner has reported that IAF will opt for 50 Sukhoi 30 directly from Russia if the Deal is a No Go . it seems like MMRCA is heading towards Make or Break Phase

Very difficult to determine what's a bluff and what isn't. Going over this entire thing - I wonder if we made a mistake by going for 126 (+64 options) instead of 66+renewals (like we did for Hawk). With 126, there is no more carrot to lead them on. And the vendor will perceive it as "too big to be cancelled".

Another thought is that we should have bought over Mikoyan (okay, call it design bureau JV with ADA 10 years ago), but that's for another time.

This was the Daily Pioneer Report IAF to opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat

and the response from IAF

Posted on LiveFist Blog

"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media indicating IAF will opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat as on 08 Apr 2013. The IAF strongly denies such report. The CNC (Contract negotiations committee) process for acquisition of 126 MMRCA is underway and there is no thought process for any procurement as a ‘back up’ as reported."

[NRao]

The West seems to have a knack of chasing India into the Russian arms !!!!!

[SaiK]

India, Dassault agree to set aside divergences, move ahead in other areas.
..
The French firm has already agreed with the Defence Ministry's demand for having one contract with the four major firms involved in the deal, including MBDA, for the weapons package for the aircraft instead of four separate contracts, they said.

The firm is understood to have agreed to the Defence Ministry's demand on the issue after the involvement of French government.

What is the meaning of moving ahead, when there are serious differences? WTF is happening?

What is the one contract with 4 major firms?

What is going on?

[Lalmohan]

1 for 4 means that dassault are the prime contractor - and all deals are via them. it means they have to manage their liabilities as well. the issue with HAL seems to be one of confidence to be able to guarantee the margins that are envisaged in the contract (then it can be 1 for 5)

[Victor]

It would be a long term nightmare if we become 100% dependent on the Russians for our air force and MRCA must be non-Russian. If not French, then American but Arm Trade Treaty has definitely struck Eurofighter off the MRCA list forever.

[Victor]

What is the meaning of moving ahead, when there are serious differences? WTF is happening?

The contract is critical for both France and India and it is a must-do situation, so to break the logjam, some movement must take place. The only thing that would definitely torpedo the deal now is GoI insistence on making Dassault responsible for HAL without any direct control over the outcome. This could open Dassault up to theoretically unlimited risk. Even bankruptcy would be preferable to Dassault under these circumstances.

Best solution is for GoI to give Dassault direct control over the Rafale plant at HAL via Reliance--handpicked workers, managers and engineers from Dassault, Reliance and HAL will call the shots with their own pay package and hire & fire rules. In effect, a new quasi-private HAL-Dassault-Reliance JV.

[Indranil]

Best solution is for GoI to give Dassault direct control over the Rafale plant at HAL via Reliance--handpicked workers, managers and engineers from Dassault, Reliance and HAL will call the shots with their own pay package and hire & fire rules. In effect, a new quasi-private HAL-Dassault-Reliance JV.

Why would HAL allow that?

If Dassault is to be held accountable for HAL deliverables, then HAL should allow delegation to monitor to development of the project. The delegation will directly report to the MoD, if there are slippages and citing the reasons for the same.

But I don't think that is the problem here. Dassault does not want to do a ToT to HAL, because HAL can absorb much more than Reliance at the moment. But, I think Dassault is being very naive in their mischief here. I think it is another case of the French riding the high horses and thinking SDREs are good only for absorbing screw-driver tech. They think Reliance will stop being an aero company after Rafale deliveries are over. The truth is Reliance will poach designers, workers, everybody from everywhere. There is a lot of incentive for Reliance to butt out HAL out of the monopoly of the HUGE and PERENNIAL Indian defense requirements. They don't realize the potential of so many people working with proper incentives. They don't realize that Reliance may be a much bigger threat to their products in the future than HAL.

[SaiK]

What is the meaning of moving ahead, when there are serious differences? WTF is happening?

The contract is critical for both France and India and it is a must-do situation, so to break the logjam, some movement must take place. The only thing that would definitely torpedo the deal now is GoI insistence on making Dassault responsible for HAL without any direct control over the outcome. This could open Dassault up to theoretically unlimited risk. Even bankruptcy would be preferable to Dassault under these circumstances.

Best solution is for GoI to give Dassault direct control over the Rafale plant at HAL via Reliance--handpicked workers, managers and engineers from Dassault, Reliance and HAL will call the shots with their own pay package and hire & fire rules. In effect, a new quasi-private HAL-Dassault-Reliance JV.

Please remember, the original RFI did contain only the first 18 will be shipped from abroad, rest all will be done locally at HAL(default integrator then, and even now). It was later in the DPP they added private participation, and Fr took advantage of the situation, and engaged RIL., they know very well, about the loopholes.. Heck, GoI is filled with loopholes, what else you expect. None is interested in verifying nor validating the process in public. One need not secret about the process established, but could be executing the process confidentially.

CAG et al and other dept/commissions need to study our process in detail and correct it. We can't afford this ever long indefinite, infinite looping.

[pankajs]

But I don't think that is the problem here. Dassault does not want to do a ToT to HAL, because HAL can absorb much more than Reliance at the moment. But, I think Dassault is being very naive in their mischief here. I think it is another case of the French riding the high horses and thinking SDREs are good only for absorbing screw-driver tech. They think Reliance will stop being an aero company after Rafale deliveries are over.

Agree. Also, if not the tech itself the manufacturing tech can cross pollinate our LCA and AMCA efforts. That Rafale can be expected to fill in for a sub-par AMCA would also be on their minds.

The truth is Reliance will poach designers, workers, everybody from everywhere. There is a lot of incentive for Reliance to butt out HAL out of the monopoly of the HUGE and PERENNIAL Indian defense requirements. They don't realize the potential of so many people working with proper incentives. They don't realize that Reliance may be a much bigger threat to their products in the future than HAL.

Agree. Reliance is always on the lookout for large scale high margin highly capital intensive business opportunity that has high entry barrier. Indian Aerospace particularly the way this project is structured is heaven sent for them.

[Viv S]

I'm surprised people are so sanguine about the replacing HAL with Reliance. Reliance has zero experience in the aerospace sector and their selection is a blatant attempt to circumvent the terms of contract. As for those worried about HAL production abilities; its been manufacturing aircraft for over 70 years, and that's 70 years more experience than Reliance has in the field.

If delivery timescales are the over-riding priority here, we may as well get them directly from Merignac rather than go through farce of having them stamped 'Made in India' and routed through a Reliance facility. For all practical purposes the degree of technology transferred will be the same in either case.

[NRao]

I think GoI should cancel the MMRCA effort and go FMS for the F-16 (not F-18). 80 of them. Get the US to agree to have the Israelis to modify the plane. Have them produced in Fort Worth, TX, not in India. Reduce the FGFA numbers to around 80 (India is getting a great place - or I hope - but not much else). And plow efforts into the AMCA.

This Rafale is beginning to stink.

And, keep RIL out of the def picture

[Austin]

I think GoI should cancel the MMRCA effort and go FMS for the F-16 (not F-18). 80 of them. Get the US to agree to have the Israelis to modify the plane. Have them produced in Fort Worth, TX, not in India. Reduce the FGFA numbers to around 80 (India is getting a great place - or I hope - but not much else). And plow efforts into the AMCA

Why do you think F-16IN is good for the IAF ?

Would US loosen its demand for EUMA ?

Would US allow F-16 to be hardwired for Nuclear Role ?

Would it allow integration for 3rd party Weapons and Avionics/Systems ?

From what i know Rafale was selected among the 6-7 contenders because the IAF specfically wanted the Rafale , Although i think all the aircraft were good candidates. IAF selecting Rafale does not mean the rest were bad much like the other AF not selecting Rafale does not meet the its bad either its just what one needs one buys.

I do like the F-16 because its a proven and reliable platform and its single engine light foot print from logistics pov , but most pilots interview i have read says the F-16 Block 50/52 were the best among the F-16 model in terms of having right balance in Aerodynamic Performance , Firepower , Range/Payload ,Avionics/Sensors.

[Multatuli]

Best solution is for GoI to give Dassault direct control over the Rafale plant at HAL via Reliance--handpicked workers, managers and engineers from Dassault, Reliance and HAL will call the shots with their own pay package and hire & fire rules. In effect, a new quasi-private HAL-Dassault-Reliance JV.

I think an even better solution would be to give the French government direct control over GoI via the "Indian National Congress", with handpicked ministers from INC, France and possibly other European countries. I am sure the Europeans ministers could clean up the city streets, considering how clean the cities are in Europe (certainly in Holland and Germany). This could be a blessing for India as far as good governance is concerned.

Austin wrote:

The issue is not about TOT here that is something some one put it up as a theory.

Holland used to have a national aircraft designer/manufacturer: Fokker.
Fokker went bankrupt: the Dutch manufacturers of aircraft parts/systems have never been busier since the bankruptcy of Fokker. That seems like a contradiction. Here is why it's true, the big aircraft builders like Boeing, didn't like to source parts from Dutch manufacturers when Fokker was still around, because the know-how they would transfer to the Dutch, could be used to improve Fokker's aircaft. However, now that they don't have to worry about competition from Fokker, they don't mind buying parts from and sharing manufacturing secrets with the Dutch suppliers.

Dassault like all the others (Boeing, BAE systems, Sukhoi, etc.) will do everything to transfer as little tech to HAL as possible, they'll try every trick in the book to prevent HAL/Indian companies in general from learning methods/technologies they could then use to improve other products.

[Austin]

Dassault like all the others (Boeing, BAE systems, Sukhoi, etc.) will do everything to transfer as little tech to HAL as possible, they'll try every trick in the book to prevent HAL/Indian companies in general from learning methods/technologies they could then use to improve other products.

You can always learn and improve your self , you really dont need a TOT , you can always hire consultants who can guide you to improve but finally one needs to take the initivative and self improvement can only come with one taking the drive , like they say one can take a horse to the well but cant force him to drink , There is nothing that prevented HAL from not doing this in years before IMO. After all HAL has been building Jags since 80's and Mig-21/27 since 60's and 70's and MKI since 2000's

We got TOT for MKI and As I understand TOT for MMRCA is lower then what we got for MKI , that did not help us make a better Kaveri or faster LCA etc ...TOT in the end is protected by IP and there is a limit on how much one can learn because specification that works for A may not work for B.

What they can learn from MMRCA deal is how to stream line the process , what is the best practise that Dassult follows to build Rafale , What kind of QC/QA are in place and how religiously they follow it as part of process , some thing that HAL can learn and improve benefit other program .....All assuming there is a willingness to learn on HAL's behalf and apply too.

We have to tendency to find fault with every one except ourself and any decision to involve Pvt players are seen from CT angle , its not Dassault or LM that framed the RFP or DPP for us ...its our own MOD .....so lets put our house in order first

[manum]

We are paying top dollars to Dassault for their only overseas sell, that to also in huge numbers. Now it does mean that Dassault needs to bend as much it looks recognizable...

Which means TOT is part of it and so is HAL. Now if HAL failed on various ground is because it has taken a lot of projects, Reliance has none of them, except creating monopoly and bending the system for the same...

They can shut down metro to Delhi airport on haywire ground, inherent logic being they made a loss on it...They can shut down petrol pumps all over India because they were making loss on it because of pricing regulated by government.

They choose to produce the less quantity of gas from a property allotted to them, which essentially is public and make money as much as they can.
Lets forget all that, its all business and life of businessman is tough and not essentially moral.

But what is crux of story, they are here to make profit. So doing military projects essentially is a profitable business? specially the R&D? failure? costly, high nosed employment? Do they have guts to invest unlimited money down the unknown lane...in hope of finding them back in their banks multiplied?

Reliance I dont think so....
TATA I would have, they have shown an example in artillery system and even in NANO, where they delivered a Rs. 1 lakh car.

but putting my bias aside...

Lets see where HAL role lies...Its a MIC which has huge infrastructure, only and only dedicated to aerospace, spread across many cities, institutions, with vast set of experience in the sector...and has 40:60 ratio of success:failure....

Its an institution which might have already saved hundreds of crores, after being able to churn out a product using indigenous labour, because of its mandate...It might have created a huge database of knowledge, systems which private sector can only dream of...

It can absorb failures and remain silent. because its our money...It can handle information worth billions in its chest, and not cost government unnecessary bills...

It has a many issues related to poor management, which if translated to private sector will mean extra bills...though I am not defending it, but I still think we are not completely a capitalist country, we are a hybrid....

So shall we give a contract worth billions to Reliance, dassault JV?

[Austin]

The point is if MOD or who so ever thinks Dassult is arm twisting them then they can always cancel Dassult and go for the 2nd or the 3rd best choice according to IAF ......i know this might mean a delay of year or two but thats better then getting arm twisted and let Dassult run the show.

The power is in the hands of MOD and if Dassult cannot stand true to its word then they can kick them out and kick Reliance too.

And its obvious Arms deal is as much about Arms as its about profit thats how the entire Business of any thing works , if there is no profit then companies will eventually have to shut down shop.

So we get a good deal or we kick them out , no point in complaining about Dassult doing this or that or CT on Reliance being the big bad guy since we have the power to take decision

[manum]

I think we should insist with Dassault as much as we can, until unless we reach a point of convergent...any other option will lead to bad precedent...for both...

MOD is insisting and it seems like it, so process is still to go ahead.

Dassault has already a case of UAE cancelling the deal, if India does so...I am sure French would have to stop minding them called Frogs...

Lets see where it goes, I don't see Reliance in it...Unless it decides to be a trainee of HAL than Dassault...

[Austin]

manum garu , I agree with you we should negotiate with Dassult and take the best ...if Dassult does not agree then we should go for the 2nd choice may be its Typhoon or F-18 ......i dont know.

If Reliance is a problem then go for Mahindra or TATA.

IF both of them does not have experience like Reliance then opt for FMC as NRao has suggested and let US build all the aircraft for us they can do that at perhaps double quick time.

IF that is not acceptable then let HAL handle the MMRCA on its own .....no need to involve any Pvt player ....its does not matter who MMRCA final winner would be.

[member_20453]

I think F-18IN is the best option under FMS. The international variant would be great and would offer extensive savings with engine commonality of the LCA mk-2. The Super Bug is proven, easily the most rugged and reliable of the lot and comes with off the shelf tech that is far beyond what most of the contenders want to achieve. Moreover, no other aircraft has been upgraded as much and in a short time span.

As for EUMA, with the large order of 126 or 200 aircraft, I am sure we can dilute these intrusive agreements heavily. Also Looking at the fact that Turkey was given access to F-16 source codes shows that its possible to get Unkil to play ball. As for wiring the teens for nuke delivery, Pak and Israel have done it anyways, the question of Unkil allowing it won't even occur when we would manufacture most of the aircraft at home anyways. Also the argument of 3rd party avionics or weapons etc on teens is not needed since looking at our very own c-130J, P-8I deals, they have most of the critical avionics coming from other suppliers including local. F-16s depending on the region have a lot of third party eletronics, so much so that Turkey even upgraded Puki solahs. A lot of Issy, EU weapons are integrated on the F-16.

http://aviationintel.com/2011/11/06/mor ... n/boeing1/

From the uprated engine to new avionics to new large panel cockpits we could have it all for a reasonable price. Also the F-18SH is still the lowest cost twin engine jet to operate and is at best a jack of all trades which is exactly what the MRCA should be in the first place.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... es-349834/

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/smart-t ... fuels/6274

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... es-372392/

Super Bug is ideal for our overall needs, from mini awacs to tanking to electronic attack, this bird makes more sense than ever.

RIL has never done anything clean, Raffy deal is clearly tainted to the core.

[Austin]

I was all the while thinking the same that F-18E/F would win the MMRCA deal since they shared a common engine with Mk2 and any improvement program in engine for F-18 would benefit Tejas Mk2 or even Mk3 , not to mention it would streamline the logistics part of it so greatly needed by IAF.

There was the routine US pressure and all the additional stuff which i believe is mere hearsay as we are too strong to resist any US pressure.

Coming back to the question on Rafale MMRCA purchase , has any IAF chief gone on record stating they wanted the Rafale for MMRCA and nothing else ? Just trying to get some statement link if possible.

Is it possible that PMO could have infulenced MMRCA decision on Rafale and could have been involved ?

I think a clear statement from IAF chief stating Rafale is the one they wanted from the 7 MMRCA contender would clear the doubt or will it ?

[Kartik]

If not reliance which Indian company has any experience building aircraft and even then a fighter aircraft of 4th Gen , None.

So the issue would have persisted be it reliance , tata ,L&T or Mahindra.

If MOD does not want Pvt sec to be involved it can just let HAL build it.

at least Tata Advanced Materials Ltd. has experience building several large assemblies of both composites and metals. They have assembled entire Sikorsky S-92 fuselages, whereas Reliance has done zilch, zero, nothing. It is patently absurd to have had Dassault trying to hoodwink the MoD into believing that they could magically produce Rafale fighters when they've neither got the manpower, nor the experience, nor the facilties to do anything on that scale. HAL is inefficient, has ancient facilities and has all the familiar failings of a PSU, but I personally would feel that if anyone in India has to build Rafales, HAL has to be involved in a big way. They have the trained manpower and the facilities for building all sorts of fighters, even if only under ToT.

BTW, why isn't Reliance gung-ho about the HS-748 replacement program? Had they been really serious about the aerospace industry and becoming a big player in that field, they'd be investing big time to try and seize that project. That is after all meant to go to private players only.

[Austin]

If i am not wrong Tata had tied up with Boeing to build SH at their facility had it won the MMRCA race and Dassult had it with Reliance and Russian with some Public Sector.

Since SH had lost the race and Rafale won it that only left , Dassult , HAL and RIL into the picture.

Now if RIL is a big issue here and Tata Advanced Material can do the task then MOD should let Dassult know that they are more inclined to Dassult doing business with Tata then say RIL.

[Viv S]

I think GoI should cancel the MMRCA effort and go FMS for the F-16 (not F-18). 80 of them. Get the US to agree to have the Israelis to modify the plane. Have them produced in Fort Worth, TX, not in India. Reduce the FGFA numbers to around 80 (India is getting a great place - or I hope - but not much else). And plow efforts into the AMCA.

I can see the attraction of the F-16 as a stop-gap option - its cost-effective, reliable and quite capable. In short, a proven machine.

But if a gap-filler is called for, the Gripen NG has the competition beat. It better than the F-16 on cost-of-acquisition, beats it on cost-of-operation and in terms of ease-of-maintenance, is arguable the best fourth generation fighter flying. Falls a bit short on payload and endurance but more than makes up for it with its extremely wide munitions mix - Aim-9/IRIS-T/AMRAAM/Meteor/Paveway/SDB/Taurus/RBS-15 and commonality with the Tejas Mk2 (primarily the shared engine).

[ramana]

So what is the status of the MRCA deal? Is it hung up in price negotiations or what?

[shiv]

The French will come into line. Losing a deal this big would be monumental stupidity. And someone else will grab it.

[Sancho]

If i am not wrong Tata had tied up with Boeing to build SH at their facility had it won the MMRCA race and Dassult had it with Reliance and Russian with some Public Sector.

Since SH had lost the race and Rafale won it that only left , Dassult , HAL and RIL into the picture.

Now if RIL is a big issue here and Tata Advanced Material can do the task then MOD should let Dassult know that they are more inclined to Dassult doing business with Tata then say RIL.

As the Air Chief said during Aero India, Dassault is free to choose any partner they want, but the final assembly/production must remain with HAL. The fact that Dassault wants to divert production parts from HAL to an inexperienced Reliance, might have more to do with increasing Reliances share on the MMRCA, which is an economical factor. Not to mention the that Dassault would be more in control of the production and the ToT, than with a government own company like HAL that can demand certain.

[member_20453]

Looking at the way they have squandered a lot of potential clients, Dassault is very much capable of messing this one up big time, I hope they do since on the long run it would be better for us. We could go for FMS and save billions on the long run. US would make a far better strategic partner than France ever was. One has to be realistic, takes time for a proper relationship to mature and such a deal would ensure a new level of trust and confidence with Unkil.