Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 05 Jun 2013 10:02

ranji wrote:I can hardly see 'PAF' designation being the prime, secondary or even remote concern for French to be told to all diplomats and attaches. I can only say 'WOW' if you managed to tell that too all the officials there. I found your reply 'frevole.' I have no idea why are you venting in the morning. Since you consider yourself professional, you will live up to it.

Another bizarre outburst by a trainee.

You even go the extent of inventing a purported French word " frevole". The word does not exist in either English or French.
Possibly lurks in your own delirious imagination.

The rest of your post does not deserve a response. You just don't understand the issue at hand.

member_26965 · Post by **member_26965** » 05 Jun 2013 10:08

Ok Sir 'frivole.' PAF designation is a huge issue at hand and I hand it over to you. Must be more important issue.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Jun 2013 14:31

Dassault Rafale Coped Well With Mali Mission

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 13 Jun 2013 15:16

Heading to Paris Airshow next week Saturday with what I hope is a brand new Sony A77, should be able to catch some illusive birds at 12fps and 24 MP with my 300mm Minolta lens. Anyone else heading there?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Jun 2013 01:50

^^^The A77 is nice. I hope the EVF works for you. I found in bright light outdoors, it can be a bit difficult to use. I think shutter priority shooting or fixed manual shutter and aperture with auto ISO may work best.
Good luck and please post the pics!

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 14 Jun 2013 15:20

Thanks for the tips, have been using the Alpha 37 for the last year, shot quite a lot in bright light outdoors, the EVF on the A37 is much lower resolution, took a while to get used to it but I think , the A77 should be far better. Really love the Minolta lenses, shots are consistently beautiful with gorgeous minolta colors. However, EVF is IMO the way forward, Sony's path forward is very intuitive, all the info I need is right there and shooting with the Alpha has been a pleasure, fast and with nice classic minolta lenses

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jun 2013 09:39

Dassault Boss: Indian Rafale Contract By Year-end

The $10 billion-plus contract to sell 126 Rafale combat jets to India will be completed by the end of the year. That was the confident prediction of Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation president and director-general, at an eve-of-show press conference. Since India selected the French combat jet in January 2012, negotiations have dragged on, with thorny issues of local partnerships, offsets and liabilities unresolved. Trappier would not discuss the details, but admitted that it had been “an uphill task.” However, he did confirm that the option for a further 63 aircraft was under active discussion.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jun 2013 11:38

France exudes confidence on Rafale sale to India

The CEO of Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier told journalists in Paris in a pre-air show interview that despite talks with the Indians being “pretty hard nosed” he expected the sale of 126 Rafale fighters to India to go through before the end of this year. “We would like talks to conclude as soon as possible. If we listen to our Indian friends and if we hear ourselves, we would like to finish in 2013. Finish means signing a contract,” Dassault’s new CEO who took the reins early this year said.

Mr. Trappier brushed aside reports of difficult negotiations saying talks were “good humoured”. He said there had “never been obstacles” and discussions now closely focused on Indian license production, assemblage and component manufacture for 126 fighters. India has an option for another 63 aircraft, which is currently under discussion.

The Dassault chief’s remarks come on the heels of the publication of France’s Defence Review that indicates that the French defence establishment expects the deal to go through this year with deliveries beginning in 2016 or 2017 at the latest. Alain Ruello writing in the French daily Les Echoes said the defence review currently being elaborated is based on the hypothesis that the sale of Rafale jets to India will go through by the end of this year.

“That’s the hypothesis we are at and with which we shall remain for the moment,” Jean-Yves Le Drian, French Defense Minister was quoted by Les Echoes as saying. The minister is likely to go to India in July to push the contract, it is learnt.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 17 Jun 2013 11:46

DASSAULT INDIA'S CAVALIER ATTITUDE TO INDIAN SENSITIVITIES

THE INDIAN P.R. ADVISORS OF THE COMPANY CLEARLY HAVE GONE OVERBOARD WITH THEIR "SECULARISM
___________________________________________________________________________________________

While Messrs. Eric Trappier and Serge Dassault, the patriarch, are entitled to be optimistic about the possibility of the MMRCA contract being finalised by the end of the year, they should pay some attention to the appalling insensitivity of their Indian office to Indian feelings.

The Dassault India portal (below) greets visitors with a flash presentation on our country. The first sequence is of a young girl (with the Taj as the backdrop) clearly doing an "azaan" prayer. The second sequence is of the Gateway of India, a colonialist structure built in honour of the British royals. Only the third sequence has a true connect with this country's ancient culture and civilisation.

Someone should tell the Dassault executives in Paris that India is not an Islamic country.

The appropriate parallel would be an Indian company (that is seeking a mega contract in France) releasing a public video showing German troops marching down the Champs-Élysées, with the Arc de Triomphe in the background.

http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php/en/?lang=en

The $10 billion-plus contract to sell 126 Rafale combat jets to India will be completed by the end of the year. That was the confident prediction of Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation president and director-general, at an eve-of-show press conference. Since India selected the French combat jet in January 2012, negotiations have dragged on, with thorny issues of local partnerships, offsets and liabilities unresolved. Trappier would not discuss the details, but admitted that it had been “an uphill task.” However, he did confirm that the option for a further 63 aircraft was under active discussion.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Jun 2013 12:52

Aren't you being too touchy about this?

Taj Mahal is a symbol of India. Why paint it in a colour? Thousands of Indians go to Gateway of India and get our pics taken every day, why suddenly this oppressed feeling? And if Indians are touchy about Gateway of India, then we should raze it, along with the Parliament and the Rashtrapati Bhavan.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 17 Jun 2013 13:09

indranilroy wrote:Aren't you being too touchy about this?

Taj Mahal is a symbol of India. Why paint it in a colour? Thousands of Indians go to Gateway of India and get our pics taken every day, why suddenly this oppressed feeling? And if Indians are touchy about Gateway of India, then we should raze it, along with the Parliament and the Rashtrapati Bhavan.

No, I am not being touchy.

You have not obviously read my post carefully. I was not objecting about the Taj per se. My objection was to the depiction of an Islamic custom as the representation of Indian culture. India is not a Muslim country.

Secondly, there are infinitely better symbols of India than the Gateway of India if Dassault wants to project the idea of "protecting India's heritage". There are hundreds of buildings and monuments that go back a few thousand years (rather than a British imperialist building constructed in 1911) that would have conveyed their message much more successfully.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2013 13:31

that way boeing got it right. their chinook ad shows a bunch of kids playing cricket in ladakh!

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 17 Jun 2013 13:50

Singha wrote:that way boeing got it right. their chinook ad shows a bunch of kids playing cricket in ladakh!

Hear hear !

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2013 14:07

here is the ad http://www.projectsjugaad.com/wp-conten ... ressed.jpg

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Jun 2013 15:12

i was once at a lunch at a french company and there were some visitors from pakistan there. the hosts went to a lot of trouble to remove alcohol from the menu and then promptly served their guests pork...

they didnt understand why i was ROTFLMAO

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 17 Jun 2013 19:11

You mean 'namaz' which is prayer rather than azaan which is call to prayer. I thought one was required to do it in Virasan not Sukhasan and that too, surrounded by diyas. Anyways, Vastu recommends against displaying image of a tomb (Taj mahal) as it brings bad luck.

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 17 Jun 2013 21:45

Victor wrote:You mean 'namaz' which is prayer rather than azaan which is call to prayer. I thought one was required to do it in Virasan not Sukhasan and that too, surrounded by diyas. Anyways, Vastu recommends against displaying image of a tomb (Taj mahal) as it brings bad luck.

I am not au fait with Muslim rituals. You are right; in response to the "azaan", she is doing the "namaaz". In any case, she is clearly performing an Islamic ritual.

As far as displaying the tomb (Taj Mahal) is concerned, do you mean to say that Dassault India's "secularist" PR agency has blundered on this too ? Poor fellows, pleasing neither their presumed benefactors (some elements in the GOI ?) nor the rest of the country. Just a bad hair day.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2013 22:02

France does not spit more than it can chew. But, off late they have started chewing more than they can cud.

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 18 Jun 2013 17:36

Meanwhile in ATLC:

http://youtu.be/oGuWadoTgkE
(skip the text screens, nationalistic self satisfaction).

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Jun 2013 19:17

Frankly, I am quite happy that we have chosen the Rafale, out of the 6 a/c which we considered. As long as the IAF has done a substantive qualitative testing and analysis of it capabilities and an evaluation of its future evolution, I wouldn't get my self in a twist as to the lack of proper advertising or the shenanigans going on during the arm twisting negotiations and contract phase.

Believe me, our babus, and I am sure theirs, would be in a very heavy CYA mode. Been there, seen it

But to expect Dassault to warranty the build (not the Dassault supplied inputs) of their product by a third party, would be unfair. Unless of course Dassault were to QA and micromanage the build and approve it every small step of the way.

Having said that, if there is a manufacturing defect, even if not attributed to Dassault, I hope Dassault realise that mud would stick to them too. C'est la vie.

We all have our beauty spots; and we all have our warts.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 18 Jun 2013 20:03

Victor wrote:You mean 'namaz' which is prayer rather than azaan which is call to prayer.

Actually the world "Namaaz" is a Persian word. The real Arabic word is "Salah" or "Salat". Apart from the South-Asian continent and the Turks, none of the other Muslims call it "Namaaz". It's always Salah.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 18 Jun 2013 20:31

rajanb wrote:But to expect Dassault to warranty the build (not the Dassault supplied inputs) of their product by a third party, would be unfair. Unless of course Dassault were to QA and micromanage the build and approve it every small step of the way.

Having said that, if there is a manufacturing defect, even if not attributed to Dassault, I hope Dassault realise that mud would stick to them too. C'est la vie.

QA & QC are toothless departments in our setup, better have Dassault managed QC process, even the IAF wanted to take charge of the affairs at HAL, guess for the same reason, without success

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 18 Jun 2013 20:53

Brando wrote:
Victor wrote:You mean 'namaz' which is prayer rather than azaan which is call to prayer.
Actually the world "Namaaz" is a Persian word. The real Arabic word is "Salah" or "Salat". Apart from the South-Asian continent and the Turks, none of the other Muslims call it "Namaaz". It's always Salah.

Some of you have deviated way off the principal issue and are now debating the etymology of various words of West Asian origin. This is not the forum for such a debate.

As Singha, Saik and Lalmohan have said, the French are appalling in their PR and in their respect for the sensibilities of their clients. Specially, when they jolly well ought to know that the Indian MMRCA deal is probably a life-line for the Rafale, which is truly a wonderful warbird (as Jean_M's clip shows so convincingly).

The Rafale's manifold qualities are not in doubt. I have, in my earlier posts, also emphasised this on many occasions. It is just that the French "sab jaanta" attitude is most off-putting. They are now near the end of the line as far as the Brazilian deal for the Rafale is concerned -most probably blown it. And the U.S. factor is not the only reason.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 18 Jun 2013 21:02

Jaybhatt wrote:
Brando wrote:
Actually the world "Namaaz" is a Persian word. The real Arabic word is "Salah" or "Salat". Apart from the South-Asian continent and the Turks, none of the other Muslims call it "Namaaz". It's always Salah.
Some of you have deviated way off the principal issue and are now debating the etymology of various words of West Asian origin. This is not the forum for such a debate.

As Singha, Saik and Lalmohan have said, the French are appalling in their PR and in their respect for the sensibilities of their clients. Specially, when they jolly well ought to know that the Indian MMRCA deal is probably a life-line for the Rafale, which is truly a wonderful warbird (as Jean_M's clip shows so convincingly).

The Rafale's manifold qualities are not in doubt. I have, in my earlier posts, also emphasised this on many occasions. It is just that the French "sab jaanta" attitude is most off-putting. They are now near the end of the line as far as the Brazilian deal for the Rafale is concerned -most probably blown it. And the U.S. factor is not the only reason.

Jaybhatt,

Does this part of the attitude you keep harping on really matter? It is irrelevant in my opinion since the people who know them best are the IAF and not us armchair Air Chief Marshals. Ego is to be displayed at an opportune moment. Like the surrender at Dhaka. Not regarding brainless PR ads which would and never should influence our objectives.

Did they not step in and help with the LGBs during Kargil? Relationships between suppliers and vendors have to be at a more mature level.

Lets get this thread back to the Raffy.

JMT

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 18 Jun 2013 21:24

Some of you have deviated way off the principal issue and are now debating the etymology of various words of West Asian origin. This is not the forum for such a debate.

As Singha, Saik and Lalmohan have said, the French are appalling in their PR and in their respect for the sensibilities of their clients. Specially, when they jolly well ought to know that the Indian MMRCA deal is probably a life-line for the Rafale, which is truly a wonderful warbird (as Jean_M's clip shows so convincingly).

The Rafale's manifold qualities are not in doubt. I have, in my earlier posts, also emphasised this on many occasions. It is just that the French "sab jaanta" attitude is most off-putting. They are now near the end of the line as far as the Brazilian deal for the Rafale is concerned -most probably blown it. And the U.S. factor is not the only reason.

Jaybhatt,

Does this part of the attitude you keep harping on really matter? It is irrelevant in my opinion since the people who know them best are the IAF and not us armchair Air Chief Marshals. Ego is to be displayed at an opportune moment. Like the surrender at Dhaka. Not regarding brainless PR ads which would and never should influence our objectives.

Did they not step in and help with the LGBs during Kargil? Relationships between suppliers and vendors have to be at a more mature level.

Lets get this thread back to the Raffy.

JMT[/quote]

Certainly, let's get back to the Rafale.

This is precisely what I wrote. I don't know what you are prattling on about.

The rest of your post is difficult to decipher. Never mind.

And don't go hyper about the French contribution during Kargil. Unless, you are privy to some state secret. The documented facts show that the Israelis were the ones who truly assisted us during that difficult period.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 19 Jun 2013 01:45

Jaybhatt wrote:DASSAULT INDIA'S CAVALIER ATTITUDE TO INDIAN SENSITIVITIES

THE INDIAN P.R. ADVISORS OF THE COMPANY CLEARLY HAVE GONE OVERBOARD WITH THEIR "SECULARISM
___________________________________________________________________________________________

While Messrs. Eric Trappier and Serge Dassault, the patriarch, are entitled to be optimistic about the possibility of the MMRCA contract being finalised by the end of the year, they should pay some attention to the appalling insensitivity of their Indian office to Indian feelings.

The Dassault India portal (below) greets visitors with a flash presentation on our country. The first sequence is of a young girl (with the Taj as the backdrop) clearly doing an "azaan" prayer. The second sequence is of the Gateway of India, a colonialist structure built in honour of the British royals. Only the third sequence has a true connect with this country's ancient culture and civilisation.

Someone should tell the Dassault executives in Paris that India is not an Islamic country.

The appropriate parallel would be an Indian company (that is seeking a mega contract in France) releasing a public video showing German troops marching down the Champs-Élysées, with the Arc de Triomphe in the background.

http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php/en/?lang=en

Jaybhatt, your post has got to rate as the worst post (by a long way) on BR this year

1) For having nothing better to do than comment on a website and images that are almost 18 months old, and that too on the least relevant content of that website.

2) For comments that have nothing to do with the subject of this thread

3) Wheras any normal person would simply have seen a beautiful image of an Indian girl with diyas at sunset with the Taj in the background, you have taken loud and obnoxious offence at this picture because it may involve a ritual of a minority religion, which in any case is quite irrelevant.

But you also say that you don't know much about Islamic rituals (but you are sure that the girl in the image is a praying muslim), which is pretty obvious, because I have never seen any Islamic prayer that involves sitting cross-legged (what Victor called "sukhasan") rather than on knees (what Victor called "virasan"), and never have I seen an Islamic prayer involving diyas.

Almost certainly that girl is Hindu, but that is quite irrelevant. And almost certainly she is facing East, not West.

Even if she was a muslim girl, the very fact that you see a muslim, and not just a young Indian girl, is a sign of mindless bigotry. You should be ashamed of yourself.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 19 Jun 2013 01:57

eklavya wrote:
Jaybhatt wrote:DASSAULT INDIA'S CAVALIER ATTITUDE TO INDIAN SENSITIVITIES

THE INDIAN P.R. ADVISORS OF THE COMPANY CLEARLY HAVE GONE OVERBOARD WITH THEIR "SECULARISM
___________________________________________________________________________________________

While Messrs. Eric Trappier and Serge Dassault, the patriarch, are entitled to be optimistic about the possibility of the MMRCA contract being finalised by the end of the year, they should pay some attention to the appalling insensitivity of their Indian office to Indian feelings.

The Dassault India portal (below) greets visitors with a flash presentation on our country. The first sequence is of a young girl (with the Taj as the backdrop) clearly doing an "azaan" prayer. The second sequence is of the Gateway of India, a colonialist structure built in honour of the British royals. Only the third sequence has a true connect with this country's ancient culture and civilisation.

Someone should tell the Dassault executives in Paris that India is not an Islamic country.

The appropriate parallel would be an Indian company (that is seeking a mega contract in France) releasing a public video showing German troops marching down the Champs-Élysées, with the Arc de Triomphe in the background.

http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php/en/?lang=en
Jaybhatt, your post has got to rate as the worst post (by a long way) on BR this year

1) For having nothing better to do than comment on a website and images that are almost 18 months old, and that too on the least relevant content of that website.

2) For comments that have nothing to do with the subject of this thread

3) Wheras any normal person would simply have seen a beautiful image of an Indian girl with diyas at sunset with the Taj in the background, you have taken loud and obnoxious offence at this picture because it may involve a ritual of a minority religion, which in any case is quite irrelevant.

But you also say that you don't know much about Islamic rituals (but you are sure that the girl in the image is a praying muslim), which is pretty obvious, because I have never seen any Islamic prayer that involves sitting cross-legged (what Victor called "sukhasan") rather than on knees (what Victor called "virasan"), and never have I seen an Islamic prayer involving diyas.

Almost certainly that girl is Hindu, but that is quite irrelevant. And almost certainly she is facing East, not West.

Even if she was a muslim girl, the very fact that you see a muslim, and not just a young Indian girl, is a sign of mindless bigotry. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Ha ha .. JayBhatt -- you must be crazy--- all I see is a girl praying with Diyas at the backdrop of Majestic Tajmahal--- that girl is not a muslim --as she is having some flowers and not covering her head --- etc.. I mean overall aesthetically an animated Rafael flying across the backdrop is pathetic for a site's animated rotating banner .. but the points you raised about Islamic symbolism is trolling of the highest kind...

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 19 Jun 2013 03:31

Jean_M wrote:Meanwhile in ATLC:

http://youtu.be/oGuWadoTgkE
(skip the text screens, nationalistic self satisfaction).

Instead of focusing on trolls, did you have a look at this little eyecandy ? Keywords: ATLC 2009 Rafale HUD, F22.

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 19 Jun 2013 03:34

Jean_M wrote:Meanwhile in ATLC:

http://youtu.be/oGuWadoTgkE
(skip the text screens, nationalistic self satisfaction).

Instead of feeding trolls, did you have a look at this little eyecandy ? Keywords: ATLC 2009 Rafale HUD, F22. The show begins at 2'19

edit: integrated

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 19 Jun 2013 03:36

Jean_M wrote:
Jean_M wrote:Meanwhile in ATLC:

http://youtu.be/oGuWadoTgkE
(skip the text screens, nationalistic self satisfaction).
Instead of focusing on trolls, did you have a look at this little eyecandy ? Keywords: ATLC 2009 Rafale HUD, F22.

"little has been said about the confrontation between the dassault delta (read rafale) and Americans F-22A present on site. In beyond visiual range engagements, the U.S. Raptors did not even have to turn on their radar, remaining invisible to RBE2 and spectra of the Rafales, while pinpointing the electromagnetic emissions of French fighter, thus securing their firing of AMRAAM from standoff ranges. On at least two occasions, the F-22A were also involved in close combat with Rafales, providing gun kill without much difficulty each time"

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-13542.html

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 19 Jun 2013 03:44

Not sure I understand what you mean here, can you please elaborate ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jun 2013 05:40

That the Rafale is a great plane, at times exaggerated, and certainly over priced. Not worth the $15+ billion.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 06:57

the rafale for some clear shooting ops there to release IR homers. very hard manouvering going by the breathing patterns of the pilot.

btw the rafale std mode is to switch of radar and get radar situation from AWACS...only using osf and spectra. what is the F22 or anyone else planning to do in such scenarios? this is a tactic anyone can use not just rafale. the contest changes when both sides have awacs and keeps the radar off until in visual range of around 15km.

it is unknown how visible the F22 is to the big AWACS radars. since the americans do not brag about that, I guess it must be showing up on the scope

they only brag about being invisible to the F15 APG73 radar until really close.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jun 2013 07:24

the more they brag, the more they show, and the less stealthy it becomes. matter of fact of most stealth zone products.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 07:28

F22 has been a pre-FOC type plane for 10 yrs and FOCed bird with no clear role or useful capability for the next 12 years. it sat out all the wars in serbia, iraq, libya, afghanistan due to lack of any A2A threat and zero A2G abilities. it needs new kit and funding to even talk to non-F22 a/c because its airborne datalink works only with other f22.

one can only say its paid off in the R&D that came out of it , and then got used in UCAVs and JSF. plus the engine laid a base for the JSF engine.

but they needlessly built 189 of them.....I would expect atleast 100 might be mothballed once JSF comes online well before their lifespan.

unlike R&D contracts, the production money is controlled by powerful senators with factories and jobs in their constituencies, so often things get built even if the pentagon says it needs no more.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jun 2013 07:58

also, zero inter-op for netcentricity.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 11:44

fortunately the PAKFA though 20 yrs later will come with A2G weapons from day1. so we have peculiar situation of two similar a/c - one of which came 20 yrs earlier but has not seen any real investment in becoming a multirole platform, flying together with a much later airframe.

just shows how much khan dropped the f22 and went full tilt on JSF due to huge cost factor. someone did a super job of the JSF slideware and cost containment propaganda to maroon the f22 and get 99% of the cash river flowing toward JSF

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 19 Jun 2013 12:21

which was kind of stupid for the F 22. Wnderful plane. Now, if only it could drop bombs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2013 12:47

I dont see whats the HUGE difficulty in having the F22 drop bombs and launch a few a2g missiles. such weapons are long in their possession. gps guidance etc is available on tap. yet they have dragged their feet on it for over a decade now...citing various excuses like new avionics, new radar modes, weapons not small enough...almost as if a total funding freeze on the program.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Jun 2013 13:03

Jean_M wrote:Meanwhile in ATLC:

http://youtu.be/oGuWadoTgkE
(skip the text screens, nationalistic self satisfaction).

Welcome back Jean, nice to see you posting again.