Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Viv S
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 04 Feb 2014 17:04

Austin wrote:On Brahmos , Dr Pillai stated recently it will be indiginised in 3 years

Fully indigenous BrahMos missile to be rolled out in three years
"We currently use fully indigenous steel for the missile. Now we are trying to undertake the integration part also at BrahMos," Pillai told reporters here.

"Efforts to make the missile engine at BrahMos will also be realized in three years. However, the explosive components of the missiles will be sourced from outside as we cannot handle explosives in our unit," he said.


When he says 'efforts [will]... be realized', does that imply we're negotiating for the engine technology, or have we acquired it and are setting up production?


BrahMos Aerospace's highly respectable CEO Dr A Sivathanu Pillai provided this brief rejoinder: "This is a joint venture. So, there's no question of transfer of technology. Russia manufactures the engines, we manufacture the guidance system and integrate the two. Transfer of technology occurs if the technology is purchased." (link)


Which would have been fine if we were merely paying them a licensing fee, some ToT cost and paying for Russian-sourced components. But the beauty of this venture is, for $250 million NPOM now owns 50% of all BAPL assets over and above what it charges for Russian-sourced equipment and ToT, and all this while Russia far from buying a single BrahMos, is actively flogging the Yakhont on the export market.


The Russians have invested in a fresh new variant of the Yakhont/Onyx at their own expense, with the intention to field it as an export cruise missile like the BrahMos. (link)


Given the performance of the missile, I can see why the IN (and then the IA & IAF) wanted to acquire it. Question is, did we have to go through this 'joint-venture' business to get a license to manufacture and customize the Yakhont?


On FGFA Direct Interview Quotes from Air Chief and HAL Chief to FORCE

Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne

There have been no design changes to the FGFA sought vis-à-vis the ASQRs. The FGFA includes features like super manoeuvrability, super cruise, low observability, sensor fusion and centralised information management. The MTA project is a Joint Venture between HAL and Russian UAC-TA for development and production of a Medium Transport Aircraft. The MTA will be a 15 to 20 T class aircraft. As HAL will be involved in the project from the design stage, it will provide HAL the opportunity to absorb critical transport aircraft technology that would be useful for future requirements of the IAF

Air Chief PV Naik

The FGFA is being jointly developed by India and Russia to meet the operational requirements of both countries. It is a swing role fighter with very advanced avionics, stealth characteristics, enhanced lethality, 360-degree situational awareness, smart weapons, data links and high-end mission computers. The aircraft will also have super-cruise and long-range capabilities. All issues pertaining to the FGFA programme have been discussed and resolved with Russia. The agreement is in its final stages. We envisage induction of these aircraft by 2017.


The requirements don't differ from that listed for the PAK FA. I'm yet to hear about the substantial differences between the PAK FA and FGFA.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 04 Feb 2014 17:44

^^ Not sure why should there be substantial differences , IAF would customise FGFA for its needs and requirement much like they did for MKI or would do for Rafale....... it wont be much hard to guess looking at MKI and Tejas program where we can expect key changes to meet specific needs.

I suspect FGFA program would be like MKI program just that in case of MKI IAF had to wait for a long time to get its config in stages while with FGFA they are involved right now so they would get the specified aircraft from the time it joins the fleet ..post that there would be local production similar to MKI if not identical.....the difference being compared to 2001 today DRDO/IAF is far more experienced and mature to specify its requirement and put in as much as key indiginous systems into FGFA plus customise it with French or Israel system if need be.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 04 Feb 2014 18:00

From -The New Rafale[/quote]

The upgrade programme will enable Dassault Aviation to integrate the following equipment and weapons onto the Rafale:

The European Meteor long-range air-to-air missile produced by MBDA. This high-performance missile will achieve maximum effectiveness thanks to the “active array” radar which equips all production Rafale aircraft delivered since mid-2013.

It'll be the last of the Eurocanards to integrate the missile and that too with only a 1-way data-link.

The Thales PDL-NG new-generation laser designator pod. Primarily used for air-to-ground strikes, in daylight or darkness, this pod will further enhance the high degree of precision that the Rafale has achieved since its first engagements (in the Afghan theatre in 2007).

Which merely rectifies the problem of the Damocles' obsolescence (relative to the Litening and Sniper families).

The laser homing version of the Sagem AASM air-to-ground modular weapon. This family of weapons, with GPS primary guidance and an additional booster, is unmatched. It was used by the Rafale during 2011 operations in Libya to destroy targets at ranges of several tens of kilometres with metric precision. The laser homing version is particularly adapted to moving targets.

Its a versatile weapon but costs a bundle - $225,000/unit, compared to <$100,000 for the tri-mode SDB II and ∽$50,000 for the LSDB.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 04 Feb 2014 18:19

I'm yet to hear about the substantial differences between the PAK FA and FGFA.


The best description of the differences:

Aug 30, 2013 :: India to customise Russia's FGFA planes

“While the Russian version of the FGFA is all-metal, ours will have wings and empennage (vertical and horizontal stabilisers) made of composite materials,” said S. Subrahmanyan, Managing Director of MiG Complex at HAL.

“The use of composites will reduce the plane’s weight and give it lower signature. Our version will also have more advanced Indian-made avionics,” Mr. Subrahmanyan told The Hindu at the Moscow Air Show-2013. He is leading a HAL delegation to the biannual air show being held this year from August 27 to September 1.

“Thanks to these improvements we will get a better and more powerful platform,” Mr. Subrahmanyan said.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 04 Feb 2014 18:36

Austin wrote:^^ Not sure why should there be substantial differences , IAF would customise FGFA for its needs and requirement much like they did for MKI or would do for Rafale....... it wont be much hard to guess looking at MKI and Tejas program where we can expect key changes to meet specific needs.

Well, not everyone accepts that the FGFA is by and large the same as the PAK FA.

I suspect FGFA program would be like MKI program just that in case of MKI IAF had to wait for a long time to get its config in stages while with FGFA they are involved right now so they would get the specified aircraft from the time it joins the fleet ..post that there would be local production similar to MKI if not identical.....the difference being compared to 2001 today DRDO/IAF is far more experienced and mature to specify its requirement and put in as much as key indiginous systems into FGFA plus customise it with French or Israel system if need be.

The IAF had to wait for the Su-30MKI because it didn't exist in 1996. There were extensive differences between the Su-30K and the Su-30MKI - the propulsion (TVC), airframe (canards), radar (PESA) and all associated avionics. The closest all-Russian analogue i.e. the Su-30MKK was delivered only starting 2001. Just a year before the first Su-30MKI deliveries.

In the case of the PAK-FA on the other hand, we're using the same engine, same airframe, same radar and likely the same support systems (EW antennas incl L-band AESAs, IRST etc). In addition to Indian data-links & IFF, it might feature a third party HMDS or LDP and perhaps a Cobham IFR probe. What we're missing is that back in the 90s the Russian industry was starved in funding and customization to bring it up to spec was necessary, which isn't very true today. In addition today, thanks to changing political circumstances, they can directly source equipment from Israel or France if needed.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 04 Feb 2014 18:48

NRao wrote:
“While the Russian version of the FGFA is all-metal, ours will have wings and empennage (vertical and horizontal stabilisers) made of composite materials,” said S. Subrahmanyan, Managing Director of MiG Complex at HAL.

“The use of composites will reduce the plane’s weight and give it lower signature. Our version will also have more advanced Indian-made avionics,” Mr. Subrahmanyan told The Hindu at the Moscow Air Show-2013. He is leading a HAL delegation to the biannual air show being held this year from August 27 to September 1.

“Thanks to these improvements we will get a better and more powerful platform,” Mr. Subrahmanyan said.


I remember that one prompted a torrent of sneers from Russians and Russophiles online.

Not altogether without justification (I believe you posted this before) -

Russian manufacturers developed an all-composite airframe for advanced fifth-generation PAK FA fighter, ARMS-TASS reports with reference to a source close to Rostech Corporation.
"PAK FA is made of composites: airframe, wing and empennage. The components are manufactured by a company of RT-Khimcomposite Holding", - the source said.
(link)

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 04 Feb 2014 19:26

Yes, I had posted (all of) then before.

My feel is that as time goes along the amount of differentiation between the two is declining. So, considering that the initial two-seater, at 244 plan order, was estimated to cost $30 billion (not including the research component at at least $5.5 billion), the current mind set should come in at around $15-20 billion. And, that figure will not fly. Let us see what happens.

I would still prefer to scrap the MMRCA, plow that into Kaveri, AMCA (with a naval version) (1st?) and some into a LCA. See where the FGFA goes, as a filler (with no intentions of MLU) get a few MiG-29Ks. And call it a day.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby chackojoseph » 06 Feb 2014 13:10


Christopher Sidor
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Christopher Sidor » 06 Feb 2014 13:39

^^^^
That would be very very bad for our air force. We need this fighter. It appears that this government due to fear is not sealing the deal. Time to get rid of these nincompoops.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby sarkar » 06 Feb 2014 15:28

Demoralizing for Air Force of-course... They would have to move on with LCA...
Will it help if IN buys 60 Rafales? Anyway even if the deal if through I guess it will take a decade to fill up IAF's inventory.

It will be too late for Rafale by then... Few years from now, Rafale will have to combat with fighter drones.

If we have few J20s in our airspace then I would like to field 100s of combat drones against it... having 2000+ UCAV in country is a deterrent in itself... J20s would not to like to get shot by bot drones lurking for them...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 06 Feb 2014 15:47

Not surprising as its an election year just 3 months down the line and more every we dont have enough capex to some something as big as Rafale even with initial down payment.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Christopher Sidor » 06 Feb 2014 16:09

^^^^
It appears that this government is afraid that if it makes down payment the spectre of corruption would raise hue and cry. Already certain opposition members have raised concerns about how Rafale became L1, i.e. the Lowest price contender. Just as a very good gun, i.e. Bofors, was the shelved and IA eventually became the victim of the shelving of Bofors, IAF will pay a heavy price. Our squadron strength is down. With many fighters expected to retire in the next few years, we will be left with a aging and declining strength of IAF.
3 months might not seem much. But the cascading effect that this delay will have would be huge. The new government will take time to go through the deal and finalize it, with the new rulers demanding their own cut.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Hitesh » 06 Feb 2014 17:45

Christopher,

I am sorry but with reports of increasing costs for Rafale and the time it takes to induct the Rafale into IAF, it makes no sense. IAF is better off in buying large numbers of LCAs in numbers and more MKIs and devoting more money into PAK-FA and AMCA programs.

The LCAs are good enough to deal with the PAF threats and IAF obligations in the western theater and MKIs good enough to deal with China threat.

To me Rafale program makes no sense. If you want certain technology from the Rafale program, we can get those technology on a stand alone basis.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby RoyG » 06 Feb 2014 18:16

Christopher Sidor wrote:^^^^
It appears that this government is afraid that if it makes down payment the spectre of corruption would raise hue and cry. Already certain opposition members have raised concerns about how Rafale became L1, i.e. the Lowest price contender. Just as a very good gun, i.e. Bofors, was the shelved and IA eventually became the victim of the shelving of Bofors, IAF will pay a heavy price. Our squadron strength is down. With many fighters expected to retire in the next few years, we will be left with a aging and declining strength of IAF.
3 months might not seem much. But the cascading effect that this delay will have would be huge. The new government will take time to go through the deal and finalize it, with the new rulers demanding their own cut.


Lets not jump to conclusions about the "new rulers". Rafale imo is dead especially given our fiscal situation. Dump Katrina and invest in LCA and plump up the SU-30 MKI numbers. I don't think we have a choice now. Indigenous engine for LCA I and II needs to be a high priority.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby ramana » 06 Feb 2014 22:26

Christopher Sidor wrote:^^^^
It appears that this government is afraid that if it makes down payment the spectre of corruption would raise hue and cry. Already certain opposition members have raised concerns about how Rafale became L1, i.e. the Lowest price contender. Just as a very good gun, i.e. Bofors, was the shelved and IA eventually became the victim of the shelving of Bofors, IAF will pay a heavy price. Our squadron strength is down. With many fighters expected to retire in the next few years, we will be left with a aging and declining strength of IAF.
3 months might not seem much. But the cascading effect that this delay will have would be huge. The new government will take time to go through the deal and finalize it, with the new rulers demanding their own cut.



Misfortunately after a slew of scams its difficult to wonder if that is not the case.
Maybe this is AKA's gift to IAF.

He never found a procurment deal he could accept!

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Cosmo_R » 06 Feb 2014 22:49

LCA + MKIs and start building stuff like this.

"...Taranis performed a perfect take-off, rotation, “climb-out” and landing, piloted remotely by Bob Fraser, a former RAF pilot.

...Lessons learnt from the drone will one day help in producing a replacement for the Typhoon and F35 fighters, said Philip Dunne, the minister for defence equipment."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... drone.html

It seems almost as big as an LCA

Height: 4 metres (13 ft)
Length: 11.35 metres (37.2 ft)
Wingspan: 9.1 metres (30 ft)
Weight: 8 tonnes (18,000 lb)
Range: Intercontinental
Engine thrust: 6,480 pounds (2.94 t)

The LCA is

Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 38.4 m² (413 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,500 kg (14,300 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,500 kg[126] (20,944 lb)

Stick a Kaveri in it. :)

Rafale/Typhoon are already old hat. The PAK/FA is the plane of the future and always will be.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Roperia » 06 Feb 2014 23:37

India's procurement process is highly complex yet ambiguous.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 07 Feb 2014 07:27

AKA's latest joke! MMRCA deal to be finalised.... "next fiscal,no inordinate delay"..after he has been well and truly dumped into the dustbin of history.Report in today's TOI.It is "alive and kicking" says he! (He!he!He!).
Raffy costs acquisition,LC,better than EF,which was "much higher".The main problem is the inability to work out a joint cooperation agreement between Dassault and HAL

http://www.firstpost.com/fwire/india-de ... 77747.html

India delays Rafale deal after exhausting budget Feb 7, 2014

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India's military has postponed until the next financial year a plan to buy 126 fighter planes from France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA), the defence minister said on Thursday. New Delhi had picked the Rafale fighters for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 and had been expected to finalise the deal, estimated at $15 billion, by the end of March. But negotiations to buy 18 planes off-the-shelf and build the rest in India have slowed and will stretch into the following fiscal year, Defence Minister A.K. Antony told a news conference at a defence sector trade fair. The military, the world's biggest arms importer for three years running, has already spent 92 percent of its defence capital budget for this year, he said. "Major procurement can only be possible in the next financial year. There is no money left," Antony said. The country is due to hold elections by May and a new government is expected to be installed the following month. India is in the midst of a $100 billion defence modernisation programme to replace Soviet-era planes and tanks, and narrow the gap with China, with which it fought a war in 1962. A border dispute lingers. But the defence upgrade programme has moved slowly like other major projects under the current government and partly because of Antony's insistence on transparency and integrity in the defence procurement process, long dogged by allegations of kickbacks. Last month, Antony's office cancelled a $560 million euro deal with AgustaWestland for 12 helicopters after allegations were made that bribes had been paid to middlemen to secure the contract. CLEAN-UP Antony said there could be delays in arms procurement decisions as he tried to clean up the process, but it was important to send a message that India would tolerate no wrong- doing in these deals. "Everybody will get opportunities, if products are good and prices are low. There is no need to do lobbying," he said. India chose the Rafale after a bidding contest against the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, made by a consortium involving Airbus Group (AIR.PA), Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI) and BAE Systems (BAES.L). Dassault Aviation's chief executive, Eric Trappier, said in December that he was optimistic about finalising the fighter jet deal within a few months, though he was unsure whether it would be sealed before or after the national election. Antony said the two sides were also trying to tackle the issue of life cycle costs relating to the Rafale. India's air force, which launched the acquisition process in 2005, has said that delays will severely affect the fleet strength of the force. The military was forced to turn to the overseas market because a programme to manufacture home-grown combat planes to replace ageing Russian MiG-21 fighters is running 15 years behind schedule. (Editing by Ron Popeski)

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/fwire/india-de ... ef_article

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_28108 » 07 Feb 2014 07:38

Seems the Rafael deal is in the backburner for this year
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/ra ... ny/1223812

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2014 07:49

the next Govt whoever forms it cannot magically print dollars from thin air.

the deal is dead, its time to bury the corpse and move on.

the only options I see are
- couple more sdns of MKI (40)
- increase production of Tejas Mk1 to 100 units from 40.
- around 300 Tejas mk2 will need to get produced to replace all the bison+mig27+jaguar fleet+mig29+m2k fleet by 2025.
- pump funds into the AMCA and get it on priority. use the M88 as a interim engine if the GE414 is too big and kaveri is not ready(obviously).
- get the RBE2-AA for the Tejas mk2 is local efforts do not bear any fruit.
- pump money like anything into local munitions, sensors and avionics programs so that Mk2 and AMCA have max local content. we need to start making all the nuts and bolts from ground up even if it costs a little more than easy sugar of imports. desi ecosystem will not develop otherwise.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Feb 2014 07:59

Singha wrote:the next Govt whoever forms it cannot magically print dollars from thin air.

the deal is dead, its time to bury the corpse and move on.

the only options I see are
- couple more sdns of MKI (40)
- increase production of Tejas Mk1 to 100 units from 40.
- around 300 Tejas mk2 will need to get produced to replace all the bison+mig27+jaguar fleet+mig29+m2k fleet by 2025.
- pump funds into the AMCA and get it on priority. use the M88 as a interim engine if the GE414 is too big and kaveri is not ready(obviously).
- get the RBE2-AA for the Tejas mk2 is local efforts do not bear any fruit.
- pump money like anything into local munitions, sensors and avionics programs so that Mk2 and AMCA have max local content. we need to start making all the nuts and bolts from ground up even if it costs a little more than easy sugar of imports. desi ecosystem will not develop otherwise.


+1000 8)

OT: You are a Forum Moderator now? Congrats saar! 8) 8)


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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Feb 2014 08:54

No money left to buy Rafale fighters: Antony

India has deferred until the next financial year its plan to finalise a deal for purchase of 126 Rafale combat aircraft from France since there is "no money left" for this now, Defence Minister A K Antony has said.

Antony also said government is looking into complaints about the procedure to determine the winner of the combat aircraft deal :| :roll: , which is touted as the "mother of all deals" and is expected to cost India more than Rs 60,000 crore.

Antony hoped that deal will be finalised in 2014-15. :!:

Though there was no deadline it was speculated that the deal could be finalised during the current financial year.

Asserting that the negotiations in the deal were still progressing, the Defence Minister told a press conference that the financial condition of the government was not good and "there is no money left for this."

"Almost all the budget has been spent. Many other projects are also in the pipeline," he said.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Victor » 07 Feb 2014 09:31

Patentable selection process is to blame. We simply outsmarted ourselves and the IAF is now left high and dry.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 07 Feb 2014 09:54

For caution on the UCAV front,the Taranis has cost 185M Pounds! Even the US and Israel with their large number of UCAV/UAV designs ,have found the costs high and the US has also experienced technical difficulties also,as soime drones were shot down in Af-Pak abd allegedly by Iran too.

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... 1Lx-_hRvIg


Iran gives Russia copy of US ScanEagle drone as proof of mass production
US spy drone given to prove Iran's forces have mass produced the drone they claim to have captured a year ago

Saeed Kamali Dehghan
theguardian.com, Monday 21 October 2013

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Paul » 07 Feb 2014 14:21

By the time the next gov settles down and starts loking at pros and cons of this deal, the cost would have gone up by another 8% - 12%. Time to start pumping money and set up a second assembly line for LCA. It will take 3 -4 years for for the line being set up now to go up to 16 annually.

The MMRCA is turning into another Bofors saga. Thankfully the MKIs are in production and are being inducted in numbers.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 07 Feb 2014 15:10

Our procurement system is broken to the rot ....need to fix that first .......MMRCA is just a symptom of our truly broken procurement system.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby JTull » 07 Feb 2014 19:52

This govt. is too busy funding projects that can be used to siphon away cash in this election year.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby KLP Dubey » 08 Feb 2014 12:23



Bhikhari kahin ka. Shameless defense minister can't even get money sanctioned for five years pending natonal defense purchase....lame excuse being Antonia the shrew took it all away!

This guy used to regularly visit my grandparents' house for free meals back in his college days. My uncle used to invite him over since he never had any lunch money. Looks like he is still the same after all these years - "No money." Damn these Congress beggars and freeloaders.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby VishalJ » 08 Feb 2014 19:00

Image

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby kit » 08 Feb 2014 21:31

Maybe some one realized that couldn't make money out of the Rafale deal ? If it did money would have appeared !

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby vivek_ahuja » 08 Feb 2014 23:27

kit wrote:Maybe some one realized that couldn't make money out of the Rafale deal ? If it did money would have appeared !


There is a saying: "When you hear hoof-beats, think horses; not zebra."

The point being that the most simple answer is often the most correct one. The Rafale deal is just way too expensive and beyond our means. Especially since desi alternatives seem to have surfaced in the decade it has taken to narrow down the MMRCA contract to the Frenchies. Watch how this deal now goes down over the coming year while LCA numbers are increased.

My biggest fear is that we will do what we have always done: go buy 40+ airplanes for two squadrons worth just to say we increased fleet numbers. Then we will have the worst of both worlds: one more fighter type in the IAF circus for no real improvement in capabilities and a severe loss of money to pay for those 40+ birds, which will then obviously cost a lot more.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby srin » 08 Feb 2014 23:40

Well - all is not lost. We had a vendor sponsored multi year exercise to gather sensitive information (ITR, STR, radar frequency/range/power) of all contemporary 4.5 generation fighters :lol:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Kakkaji » 09 Feb 2014 02:58

Roperia wrote:India's procurement process is highly complex yet ambiguous.


It is a procurement process that doesn't procure anything. :(

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Victor » 09 Feb 2014 03:21

Vishal Jolapara wrote:Image

What could have been the Reliance Rafale is now Rafale ta ta.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 09 Feb 2014 04:03

Is that a Naval Rafale? Seems to have a tail hook.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby vasu raya » 09 Feb 2014 04:40

Singha wrote:- get the RBE2-AA for the Tejas mk2 is local efforts do not bear any fruit.


they should have done that as well as the Spectra with the upgraded Mirage at $54m

vivek_ahuja
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby vivek_ahuja » 11 Feb 2014 06:15

Indian military aviation going broke...

The mood turned sombre at the Defexpo 2014 here following Defence Ministry A K Antony’s announcement that India has no funds to do defence business anymore. Speaking at the event, Antony said India had no funds for new defence acquisitions this fiscal after Rs 7,870 crore from the capital budget was transferred to the revenue budget.

The statement has resulted in major confabulations within defence companies, both foreign and domestic private sector, on going slow till “business prospects show up” in India.

The Defence Minister also said India has not yet made down payment (about Rs 600 crore) toward a Rs 4,000-crore contract for six more C-130J special forces planes, though it was signed in December 2013, due to lack of funds.

Industry sources said US firm Boeing will now focus on “deliveries” of planes and missiles that it has signed contracts for over the next six months, instead of signing new contracts.

Boeing is currently supplying eight P-8I maritime patrol planes and the anti-submarine warfare Harpoon weapon systems, apart from 10 C-17 strategic transport planes. Its Chinook helicopter is the winner of the tender for 15 heavy lift helicopters and its Apache has been chosen by Indian Air Force as the attack helicopter it wants to meet the requirement of 22 gunships.

United States firm Raytheon’s expansion plans also may not go through, sources said. It would, however, continue to have a liaison office in New Delhi to pursue business. Raytheon has over the years pushed for sale of its Patriot missile defence system, Javelin anti-tank guided missile and Stinger man-portable air defence missile system, but has had no success.

In the case of BAE Systems, will focus on deliveries of 57 more Hawks, of which 17 would go to the Indian Navy and the rest 40 to the IAF. The company is waiting for the last two years to get the orders for supplying additional 20 Hawks for the IAF’s Surya Kiran aerobatics team.

BAE Systems had in the 2011 decided not to bid for the 155mm 52 calibre towed artillery gun tender after Indian Defence Ministry had tweaked the original parameters. BAE Systems then felt that its gun was superior to the specifications sought by the Indian tender and decided to keep away. In November 2013, the UK firm again decided not to bid in the tender for naval 127mm guns for integration on board its 13 mainline warships.

European firm Airbus too is waiting to sign a Rs 6,000 crore contract for supplying six A300 MRTT midair refueller to the IAF for the last two years. It is also waiting for a decision from the Defence Ministry on the tender for 197 light utility helicopters worth Rs 7,500 crore for the Army and Air Force.

This tender is stuck due to investigation into complaints against a Brigadier demanding a bribe of Rs 25 crore from Italian major AgustaWestland.

Philip
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 12 Feb 2014 04:56

When we have already developed the Akash SAM,PAAD missile,etc.why on earth should we acquire Patriots,which in both GWars,performed miserably at great expense! I think that the US thought,or were given to understand as strongly alleged by some,that MMS promised an open doors policy towards US arms manufacturers in exchange for the N-deal.It thus explains why C-17s,C-130Js,P-8Is, Apaches, Chinooks, etc., were all swiftly sealed with indecent haste,while critical items like the arty (26 yrs. of waiting),subs,etc. have languished.

Nancy Powell's lust to meet Mr.Modi after the US has shunned him for years,is a desperate exercise to find out whether it will be "business as usual" with Uncle Sam,similar in fashion to venal,servile lackey,"Surrender Singh".The US has suddenly realised despite its efforts to prop up the Congress and put its "B" team in place-the AAP,what the "coming colour" (to coin a popular Lankan saying) is going to be in the next election.it is going to be "saffron"! As for the "turd front",remember what RG said about it,turd "affront",and Mr.Modi,"turd rate"!

Raffy in IAF roundels will require the art of PC Sorcar to happen.It is going to beggar the services and IAF in particular.

Eric Leiderman
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Eric Leiderman » 12 Feb 2014 21:42

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/02/11 ... the-table/

Looks like Canada is postponing its F35 purchase
Due to domestic pressures of balancing its books and the high cost of the purchase.
So the cycle of curtailment that we see in our defence purchases is being repeated in quite a few democratic societies.


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