Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 13 Feb 2014 04:57

Eric Leiderman wrote:http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/02/11 ... the-table/

Looks like Canada is postponing its F35 purchase
Due to domestic pressures of balancing its books and the high cost of the purchase.
So the cycle of curtailment that we see in our defence purchases is being repeated in quite a few democratic societies.

The difference is, Canada has no enemies on its borders ready to exploit its military weakness.

nash · Post by **nash** » 13 Feb 2014 20:58

http://www.thehindu.com/business/uk-kee ... epage=true

their itching is back....

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Feb 2014 03:24

Eurofighter Typhoon or Dassault's Rafale: Which fighter aircraft should India opt for?

UK keen to offer Eurofighter to India

The Brits making some noise is good news.. hopefully put some pressure on Raffy team to bring down costs and help negotiations.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Feb 2014 03:28

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 16 Feb 2014 21:10

Boeing Ponders Fate Of Super Hornets, Growlers

F/A-18 E/F manufacturer Boeing has until March to decide whether to put its own funding toward continuing production of the Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler aircraft without further U.S. Navy orders or face closure of the St. Louis line.

The company announced in September it would close its Long Beach, Calif., C-17 transport production line after years of intermittently relying on company funding to underwrite the work there while limping along on sporadic international orders.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 645496.xml

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Feb 2014 21:49

^ Good time to make a deal on the Super Hornet and Growler. Quicker, cheaper and more deadly combo IMO with better weapons and radars.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 16 Feb 2014 22:07

Austin wrote:Our procurement system is broken to the rot ....need to fix that first .......MMRCA is just a symptom of our truly broken procurement system.

NO. It is working perfectly for some items and is "gone case" for others. Simple. Vested Interests.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 16 Feb 2014 22:09

Kakkaji wrote:
Roperia wrote:India's procurement process is highly complex yet ambiguous.
It is a procurement process that doesn't procure anything.

A procurement process to pander to all the vested interests, read kickback / bribes.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2014 00:02

It looks like the Indian sale is tied to the French purchase. There is one report (an interview with the CEO of Dassault), where he seems to imply or does say that Dassault has to export 7 planes in 2016 to make up for the numbers from the French def min. IF such a sale does not occur, then the two parties will again get together in early 2015 to restart the process.

I suspect the urgency - from the French - to get the Indians to sign off on the 14(?) Rafale before this gov in India is run out of town, is related to this.

?????

I think that the time, for Dassault, to make a decision is very close. I would expect the MMRCA topic to go one way or the other in the next few months. Perhaps, the Saint's comment on we do not have the funds is related to this - telling the French Gov that they cannot depend on India to make their decisions.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 17 Feb 2014 00:53

arthuro wrote:^ Good time to make a deal on the Super Hornet and Growler. Quicker, cheaper and more deadly combo IMO with better weapons and radars.

For the record the SH did not make the cut after IAF technical evaluation.

Second, it would not be quicker nor cheaper to buy the SH unless you compare apple and oranges : An Indian built rafale with the duplication of manufacturing facilities, supply chain and full ToT is obviously far more exepensive to procure than any jets rolling from a foreign country's assembly line.

But if you abide to Indian MRCA bidding conditions, Boeing would face the same hurddles than Dassault and the price would be far different from a simple FMS purchase. You would lose several more years again.

Last but not least, it is far than obvious that Boeing could actually keep the 100% ToT promise as any decision is dependent on US senate. For the french side, this is not dependent of any parliament's decisions.

With the production line due to close in a (very) close future, the SH will be soon part of history. In comparison with its slow delivery pace, rafale production line is guaranteed to remain open until 2023 at least to satisfy french needs alone. An export would even increase that date as export production would postpone french orders.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 17 Feb 2014 01:10

Could you please provide a source where it says without export Rafale production line will be busy with 11 planes per years until 2025?

Thx in advance

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2014 01:12

Just curious.

Is it not that the French order is dependent on an export order? What if an export order does not materialize? Will the French order continue till 2023?

And, even then the 2023 date is based on French economic conditions. That line will close much faster if the economy tanks. Right?

Again, just curious.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2014 01:15

On F-18 ToT and closing, all that is known. And, with the experience of the C-130/C-17/P-8I/etc at the very least the negotiations seem to have gone on much faster, cleaner and more predictable than the Rafale. The only aspect of the US deals that I am not too sure about and uncomfortable with is the off sets. I do not know where they stand. Rest all seems far better than what the M2K and the Rafale dealing.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 17 Feb 2014 01:59

NRao wrote:On F-18 ToT and closing, all that is known. And, with the experience of the C-130/C-17/P-8I/etc at the very least the negotiations seem to have gone on much faster, cleaner and more predictable than the Rafale. The only aspect of the US deals that I am not too sure about and uncomfortable with is the off sets. I do not know where they stand. Rest all seems far better than what the M2K and the Rafale dealing.

C-130/C-17/P-8I are very inaccurate comparisons with the MRCA deal. A purchases under a US FMS rule has nothing comparable in complexity...It is straight, simple and easy. If india purchased its rafale directly from France, they could be available within a month, much faster than C-130/C-17 or P-8I. But that's not what India wanted.

For MRCA duplicating manufacturing capabilities is a mamoth task and defining responsibilities between the country of origin and HAL is far from an easy negotiation.

As for the mirage 2000 upgrade, it could have been quicker if India decided to. Other examples of upgrades (Greece, UAE were negotiated in a much shorter period).

late landing in India for the Rafale

The duplication of the Rafale supply chain in India advance, but the signing of the final contract shall not be made before the parliamentary elections scheduled for May due to budget constraints.
[...]
"All committees for strategic purchasing decision on defense will be frozen from mid-February. But today, there is a consensus on the strategy of defense and the selection should not be questioned, "said a French officer connoisseur of the country.
Dassault will have to wait several more months. "It takes ten years to sign a big contract in India," .[....] Recently, the modernization of the fleet of indian Mirage 2000 was no exception. Started in the mid-2000s, negotiations with Thales have been concluded in ... 2011! The extreme slowness of the Indian bureaucracy is not a legend. "The notion of time is not the same. When you ask your contact about details on the schedule of operations, you often got a 'very soon' because themselves know nothing. This may mean in three months as in five years, "smiled the observer.

Nevertheless. The manufacturer of the Rafale wants to move quickly "Our goal is to have finished writing all the documentation - technical, commercial, legal -. Relative to the contract in mid-February ,we have fifty people mobilized on this project." Says Eric Trappier. the CEO of Dassault Aviation which has a daily meeting, late morning, with his Indian team.
And every day or almost, Indian media, citing "anonymous sources close to the Indian Ministry of Defense," bring their share information on the progress of discussions!
On 26 January, the local news site DNA spoke of a doubling of the initial amount of the contract, around30 billion dollars! This information is unverifiable. Especially since they are neither denied nor commented upon by key stakeholders. "No official figure for the contract has never been disclosed either by the manufacturer or by the Indian authorities. Most estimates are based on gross purchase of 126 devices, but the contract is much more complex than that, "says an informed observer

The contract includes the provision of any industrialization associated with the delivery of the aircraft. Apart from the first 18 aircrafts,[...] the other Rafale will be assembled in India by public aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Half of the production goes to local companies. To achieve this, the installation of a supply chain made in India is anything but obvious. Despite the quality of Indian engineers, industrial maturity is not the same as in France. Technology transfers are never easy.
"With the licensed production of Mig 21 and Sukhoi 30, HAL has encountered many difficulties. The shipyards Mazagon also suffered to produce DNCS submarines in India," says Jean-François Maulny Director at the Institute of International and Strategic Relations (IRIS). To sign license agreements with the suppliers on all Rafale equipment, Dassault Aviation and HAL have evaluated the skills of every office studies, audited production capacity and defined support plans for training.

[...]
There is little information on the future industrial scheme, but one would go to a supply chain gathered around a few major players such as HAL and the private conglomerate Reliance Industries. It would manufacture the wings of the Rafale, according to Indian press. The difference is significant with France, where some 500 SMEs participate in the program [...].

The central question of ultimate responsibility on aircraft out of the factory of HAL Bangalore was finally settled. This delicate point has, it seems , long hampered the progress of discussions. Deemed commercially inflexible , Dassault has refused to accept such responsibility while HAL is the ultimate integrator. In 2005 , DCNS , in a comparable situation , agreed to take responsibility for the first 2 of 6 Scorpene submarines assembled in India by his partner, Mazagon site. [...]

http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/le ... de.N239387

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2014 02:19

So, there seems to be some truth to the story that the French orders could suffer IF Dassault is not able to export 7 rafales in 2016. IF India does not sign up by this year end, then everything is up in the air.

But, thanks. Appreciate your response to the other (relatively worthless?) topic.

Wonder if that was the reason why in the AS article the Rafale was at $18 billion. ?????? Dassault *needs* not just exports, but actually by 2016.

Interesting times.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 17 Feb 2014 02:39

NRao wrote:Just curious.

Is it not that the French order is dependent on an export order? What if an export order does not materialize? Will the French order continue till 2023?

And, even then the 2023 date is based on French economic conditions. That line will close much faster if the economy tanks. Right?

Again, just curious.

Absolutely as the 225 rafales target for french forces is not achieved with current orders (180 rafale ordered to date). A 5th tranche will be purchased and it is already under development:

@Dassault_OnAir
French MoD : "The future of the Rafale is secured because there will be a 5th tranche"
https://twitter.com/Dassault_OnAir/s...11583207657472

also:

Jean-Yves Le Drian brightens the future of the Rafale for Dassault Aviation and its subcontractors

Modernization contract for more than a billion euros, confirmation of a 5th tranche of national order, launching of a demonstration program for a Rafale successor ... Jean-Yves Le Drian, Defence Minister, gave Dassault Aviation and its partners guarantees for the future of the French fighter aircraft.

They are far the threatening words of Gérard Longuet in 2011, then Minister of Defence, suggesting a possible stop of the Rafale manufacturing after repeated failures to sell abroad. Now the future of the French fighter aircraft appears cleared for many years. January 10 , Merignac (Gironde), in the assembly hall of the comba(t aircraft , the current defense minister Jean-Yves Le Drian reiterated the importance of this strategic sector [....]
For good measure, the Minister did not come empty-handed in Aquitaine . He gave the contract to upgrade the Rafale for 1.1 billion euros (studies and work already started included) to Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation before the main actors of the Rafale industry [...]
Jean-Yves Le Drian also wanted to provide guarantees for the supply chain of the Rafale whose production mobilizes 7,000 people and 500 firms, some weakened by the low rates of production. [...] He said that France would continue to order Rafale. "The future of domestic production is assured [...]. Not only the 4th tranche will be achieved but there will be also a 5th tranche.
Icing on the cake, he even spoke after the Rafale! Its successor is expected to enter service for 2030 and would be the result of cooperation with the British. The launch of a demonstration program could take place this year. "This program will lead to the development, on the beginning of the 2020's, of the future operational system that will enter

http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/je ... ts.N231569

New developments after the F3R standard due to be comissioned in 2018:

Rafale : preparing for the future ; page 16-19, excerpts:

Active antenna, versatility, data fusion , the Rafale is undeniably a step ahead of its European competitors [...] And now?
In the coming days must be notified to Dassault and its partners the development contract for the new F3- R standard , [...] which will modernize all Rafale delivered to France .[...] The new standard will improve the aircraft in 2 main areas: air-to-air and ground targets targeting [...] But the F3R standard is not limited to the PDL-NG and Meteor , other changes are planned [new link 16; IFF Mode 5 , new buddy refueling pod ] [... ] and some improvements on electronic warfare and radar will be integrated in 2016 and 2017. DGA wants to qualify the F3R standard by mid-2018. But the DGA , the industry and the operationals are already preparing the next move, the following standard should be qualified by 2023 [...], 2 pillars are emerging for this future standard ; one focuses on the development and integration of modernized missiles ( New MICA , SCALP , ASMP /A ) and the other on interoperability. Many research studies ( PEA ) are underway to ripen the technologies needed for this future F4 : AESA performance improvement, SPECTRA performance improvement , increased connectivity , reduction of the total cost of ownership ... And later , the future midlife update, by 2030, will bring up various hardware improvements : new cockpit, stealth kit ...
What is still missing ?
Despite its european lead , Rafale still has a few shortcomings, most of them should be corrected by 2020.
- Reduction of collateral damage: Rafale needs a precision weaponry with lower collateral damage. Sagem proposes to integrate a light version of the AASM (125 kg) while MBDA offers the integration of Brimstone . The two manufacturers could also join forces for the development of a new mini missile if the fiscal situation improves...
- The insufficient resolution of the current targeting pod will be corrected with the new PDL-NG .
- Lack of HMD: nothing is planned before 2020 unless India (or another export customer) joins France to integrate a new HMD; answer in 2014 perhaps.

Air&Cosmos 2386s, Dec 13.

Second, There have always been a clause that if export orders do not materialize, french state will guarantee a minimum 11 aircraft to be built per year.

To conclude : Indian order is of course very important to France and Dassault, but it is not vital for rafale program.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2014 10:31

Reliance Enjoys patronage of both Con-gress and BJP ....so even if its get delayed for monetary reasons the deal itself wont hit a political hurdle......the only unpredictable thing is if 3rd party or similar forces comes to power then we might see the entire deal getting cancelled or slowing down considerably.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 17 Feb 2014 13:30

Thanks Arthuro for your efforts and clarification. It is not that I want Dassault to shut its shop but I want to know how much delay is possible (You know our slowness).

180 will be delivered by 2016 and final figure is 225. I am not sure if France will order these additional 45 planes, lets assume they do. These will be delivered within 4 years (with 7 left overs from 2016). Still it does not add up to 2023 unless there are unknown unknowns

--- Possible solution ---
Lets assume even if India signs dotted lines, French lines can be kept open only for one or two year maximum. It might make sense if Dassault move production line instead of creating a duplicate line in India, it will save huge investment costs for both parties.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2014 13:34

^^ Dassault will only move production lines if they dont see any further orders other than India .....which is unlikely even if its means small order.

They would need those lines for maintenance and future upgrade works

Any ways its up to us if we want to build a parallel production line or not for our own long term benefit .....its up to Dassault to do what they wish to do with theirs.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Feb 2014 13:40

maybe a better strategy would have been to go for an outsourcing strategy for the main production line in the beginnng with full assembly later on. allow time to build up indian suppliers a few at a time, rather than go for the whole ecosystem in one go

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2014 14:00

The ecosystem wont be built in one go , this is a two decade long process it will be done in multiple stages spread across many years...remember how long MKI to took for local production and other vendors to build up .....the entire TOT process and its fine nity gritty is a very (10x ) complex process and the three letter TOT hides the huge complexity and time scale behind the subject.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 17 Feb 2014 14:22

I am glad we can't sign the deal, I hope they choke on it, by the time election is over, the price will escalate more and the Rafale deal will fall on its weak knees. It was a sham since day 1. Dassault screwed us on this deal as expected since the start. I knew all that hogwash of full-tot was pure bs.

They should have just gone for an FMS of the SH International or even the Mig-35, we'll still get more out of such a deal than this ridiculuously overpriced BS. This deal was never about having the shiniest new bird. Rafale brought along with it bad omen obvious in its long history of failed negotiations and deals in its past. Its horrendous costs were clearly there to read for everyone and yet everyone was too hooked to its beautiful feline curves, dassault's BS marketing (mostly gorgeous lies).

This deal was always in its essense about having a workhorse (not sure IAF knows this either), something that was a jack of all trades, not really the best at anything, rather an aircraft with a wide set of roles, recognised reliability and known recurring costs.

Now, even the Mig-35 MKIed for our needs or ideally the SH International would bring in very good overall capability, engine commonality with LCA (many said oooo if IAF doesn't care about the savings and has budgeted the costs required to operate a completely new aircraft with no commanity then its no issue, while obviously any bit of savings 'now' are much welcome). More than bullets, armor, fighters and missiles, war needs 'cash or credit' (hard truth), the cheaper the war the better, 'value for money' becomes key when such numbers are discussed.

Better to scrap this deal and go for either an FMS Super Hornet International or even the MKIed Mig-35, we'd get more out those deals for less and the capability will be roughly the same or superior due to opertaional ease of maintenance, wide spread knowledge of systems due to commonality & in the case of the Mig thorough experience using a similar aircraft platform.

With the SH line closing soon, we can get the whole line transferred to India and with a lot of TOT. Per bird the saving over a life time in comparison to the Rafale should be over 30-40 Million.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Feb 2014 14:49

>> With the SH line closing soon, we can get the whole line transferred to India and with a lot of TOT

they will need it for upgrades and repair of the 100s in service! FMS has no TOT compulsion!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2014 15:27

From HAL Chairmans interview Rafale Deal is looking for 100 % local production over the period of years ....this is something new and unique for any deal we did so far ....even MKI deal does not have 100 % local manufacturing atleast not till we bought out the entire 280 plus aircraft and only from spare we can go for 100 % local TOT.

The complexity of such TOT is mind boggling and time consuming to negotiate ( check the MKI interview in Su-30 dhaga ) and both sides will try to give and take in the bargain.

F-18 did not cut out , the Typhoon came in 2nd and neither the F-16 or Mig-35 could make it either .....US infact lost out after have 2 aircraft in the competition.

Rafale deal will come over for sure else the MMRCA deal itself would be cancelled ....considering the crunch that IAF is in and the next deal might take another decade atleast , Neither IAF nor MOD or Dassault would loose on this after running the entire marathon.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 17 Feb 2014 15:52

Defence ministry gets Rs 2,24,000 crore, 10% more than last time

Last time, the hike in allocation was 14% compared to the previous year.

The ministry had spent 82% of that amount till the start of this month.

The hike in allocation comes at a time when the ministry has a number of procurements in the pipeline while some are in their final stages and expected to materialize in the coming months.

These include the deal for 126 multi-role combat aircraft which is expected to cost thousands of crores of rupees.

Rafales are coming...

I think we didn't have enough money to put down a downpayment for signing the deal this fiscal year (and nothing more should be read into it).

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 17 Feb 2014 18:38

Austin wrote:From HAL Chairmans interview Rafale Deal is looking for 100 % local production over the period of years ....this is something new and unique for any deal we did so far ....even MKI deal does not have 100 % local manufacturing atleast not till we bought out the entire 280 plus aircraft and only from spare we can go for 100 % local TOT.

The complexity of such TOT is mind boggling and time consuming to negotiate ( check the MKI interview in Su-30 dhaga ) and both sides will try to give and take in the bargain.

F-18 did not cut out , the Typhoon came in 2nd and neither the F-16 or Mig-35 could make it either .....US infact lost out after have 2 aircraft in the competition.

Rafale deal will come over for sure else the MMRCA deal itself would be cancelled ....considering the crunch that IAF is in and the next deal might take another decade atleast , Neither IAF nor MOD or Dassault would loose on this after running the entire marathon.

Incorrect entirely Indian made MKi has already rolled out a couple of years ago, Rafale deal is plain BS, certainly not worth the hefty price and I am still not convinced about full-tot. Rafale is the biggest mistake the AF would ever make, it will only be extremly expensive to operate, maintain and upgrade, it will eat up IAF's fund for years.

SH deal under FMS with original 60% RFP TOT requirment can be easily met by Unkil.

Eurofighter is just as expensive.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2014 08:22

Those are made from materials supplied by Russia ..we will start making MKI components from locally sourced raw material with spares , read the interview I posted on MKI thread.

Neither of us here need to be convinced about any thing , As long us MOD/IAF/Dassault are satisfied with the end result and there would be give and take on it.

No point in peddling SH or other type when its not in the game any more.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Feb 2014 08:51

Two points to be considered.The Rafale coming in "late" for India and its rising cost.If its cost is taking the same upward spiral as the JSF and touches the $100M mark,then it is going to be a financial millstone round our neck.In the Mil.Av. td.,Austin has posted a piece about how Cope-India air exercises with the USAF rewrote the air combat book.Our upgraded Bison beat the sh*t out of the much vaunted Yanqui birds,F-15s and F-16s. If it also going to come in "late",then its relevance will fade faster as newer stealth birds appear in the skies at around the same cost!

The key Q is whether the Indian aviation industry,public and pvt. can absorb the "100%" TOT involved and meet quality stds. if we are going to have the performance and track record as of now,this will send the programme back a few more years as we struggle to deliver vital components,etc.,and importing them from France would add to the forex burden.The revolution in PGMs and LT PGMs and missiles,now allows older aircraft considerable upgraded capability to deliver such weapons from a safe distance away.As the USN's CNO has said,the time has come to move towards "payload centric instead of platform centric" strategies and options,where "one doesn't need luxury vehicles when a bomb truck will do".As of now the Rafale is one large luxury vehicle.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 18 Feb 2014 11:45

Septimus P. wrote:
Austin wrote:From HAL Chairmans interview Rafale Deal is looking for 100 % local production over the period of years ....this is something new and unique for any deal we did so far ....even MKI deal does not have 100 % local manufacturing atleast not till we bought out the entire 280 plus aircraft and only from spare we can go for 100 % local TOT.

The complexity of such TOT is mind boggling and time consuming to negotiate ( check the MKI interview in Su-30 dhaga ) and both sides will try to give and take in the bargain.

F-18 did not cut out , the Typhoon came in 2nd and neither the F-16 or Mig-35 could make it either .....US infact lost out after have 2 aircraft in the competition.

Rafale deal will come over for sure else the MMRCA deal itself would be cancelled ....considering the crunch that IAF is in and the next deal might take another decade atleast , Neither IAF nor MOD or Dassault would loose on this after running the entire marathon.
Incorrect entirely Indian made MKi has already rolled out a couple of years ago ....

Incorrect ... and I see Austinji has already answered to you but pls do note that there are some very specific questions asked about this so-called Su-30 "indigenous" manufacturing (vs screwdriver-giri) in the LCA and the Su-30 thread. If you can point to sources which answer objectively to those specific questions, it can be established that we do "manufacture" Su-30 etc.

However do note, another argument you will hear wrt Indian MIC general backwardness regarding absorbing such "cutting-edge" technology etc ... pls take such claims not only with a bucket of salt but know the cold truth that these are just another plain vanilla excuse for not parting with hard-earned-R&D-based-IP but still gouging as much price as possible from an unsuspecting customer (sometimes called "friends", to rub it in, maybe).

For example, when Indian entities can cast and forge the DS blades, vanes and disks for Kaveri etc, how difficult will it be for them to learn/absorb SC blade and disk stuff. All it needs to inform them are the exact solution treatment temps, the dual/multiple-precipitation temp and time, handing them with casting ceramic moulds and informing them the exact grain boundary growth angles and exact temp gradient across the chill etc and voila you have a made-in-India SC blade for AL-31FP (refer to the unfinished Kaveri saga thread for referencing these terms).
These are all proprietary info and has no relation with actual technology of manufacturing SC blades etc ... and, if unavailable from OEM, given the time, effort and money these can be reverse-engineered by a tenacious organisation with sufficient funds and brainpower (of course, by the time these proprietary info is fully understood/detailed, the platform itself will be either obsolete or requiring an engine-change MLU of a next gen engine).

And conversely, no, just knowing to make copies of that particular SC blade geometry, morphology and material composition after these proprietary info and the required machinary has been made available (if at all), will NOT help in anyway designing the next higher temp (TeT) casted blades (for which the "hows, whys and other reasoning" for these proprietary info needs understanding - which is "the Technology"). And we shouldn't have any expectation of anybody else telling us those stuff for any amount of money and "friendship".

After all, it's not just a coincidence that Lun-lun Tun-tun series are where they are today, despite so much money pumped into that effort by the Chinese.

But doing that (i.e. parting with those proprietary info), would mean absolute harikiri from Russian pov, as that mean drying up of funds for next 10years in "selling" of these casted blades (at exorbitant prices - to fund next gen engine R&D to be later sold to India and other turd-world countries) and the occasional belly-ache of "too complicated for you yaar ... first make a decent automobile diesel engine and then we will see" kind of hand-waiving.

The small detail that's normally missed, by the more idiotic jurnos who graces these sermon-distribution chai-biskoot get-togethers,

is just how many automobile engines that are superior to Indian-manufactured automobile-engines are there in Russia, and more importantly, how making an automobile engine is comparable to turbofan engine manufacturing capability (of course, except for the common term "engine" between them).
And why should India be beholden to some Russian automobile engine tech when technologically better engines are available from Western companies (manufactured in India - and some design work as well, which is OT here).

Ditto for the radars and other so-called high-tech stuff. Indian indigenous capability there is absolute top-notch, but all key proprietary info will be withheld forcing India to import whole components like the whole antenna assembly (what exactly is so complicated in a Phase-shifter based front-end of a PESA that a S-band-TR-Module-AESA developing country couldn't produce - hain jee).

Anyway enough of an rant - betw hope it's understood atleast in BR that Proprietary Information has no connection with Technological Capability, which is exactly where we always get caught.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 18 Feb 2014 12:15

The USA has been stingy with ATGMs and their associated technology. Are we really to believe that when it come to the SH they will be more open ? Moreover the SH doesn't meet the IAF's qualitative requirements, there is no point in rehashing the same-old, same-old.

The GoI and MoD must now come to the realization that the limited public sector industrial capability dwarfs the NEEDED military industrial requirements and the GoI on its own cannot move quickly enough to meet the demand. The only logical alternative is to open up the mil-industrial complex to the private sector and increase FDI in defense technologies. The OFB/HAL/DRDO combine is no longer adequate to adapt to the rapid growth of new technologies and the rapid demand for the same in the Indian military.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2014 12:31

^^ That being true and no country will ever part with technology that built over decades.

Had we to export Tejas how much would be willing to sell as TOT to exporting countries that we have built over 3 decades of investment ?

What we get with MKI , Rafale or any deal is Lic MAnufacturing deal and Technology to make them from materials sourced from OEM or Local from Engineering equipment supplied by OEM under their Guidance and Certification.

TOT will just make sure we dont run to OEM at the drop of hat and start importing spares etc but just procure it locally. Reducing Long term cost and higher availability of aircraft.

Other than that its nothing more ..even these things need long negotiations , Protection of IP , Signing on dotted line , Investing huge amount to procure machinery etc call it developing local infra to support the type and it happens over period of many years generally decade or half.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Feb 2014 10:13

The extra 10% is actually a minus in real terms,as the rupee has devalued so much and with the official acknowledgement that70% of our defence weaponry and systems are sourced from foreign suppliers,the import bill will only skyrocket in rupee terms.Even with this 10% hike,the "one rank one pension" decision (finally!) will beggar the coffers.Tough times ahead,esp. for Raffy.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 19 Feb 2014 14:30

Well MOD/IAF being happy alone won't be enough, now that the deal is kinda of stalled and any new business will only after the elections, MOF also has to aprove this and the spiralling cost will ensure this deal chokes, we are still talking about 20+ billion for jets alone, we have not even gone into the weapons package which has its own TOT, maintenance, training and service costs and for a fleet of 126 fighters we are talking about a cost of around 5-6 billion more, IAF is also stupid to be looking at French weapons, considering the AASM bomb alone costs well over 100K Euros a piece. Like I said this deal is a sham, a terrible waste of money, if going for unkil's SH of JSF is not an option, even the Mig-35 now seems like a far better option MKI it with an Israeli EL-2052, TVC, new RD-33 MK-3 engines, Virgilius AESA based EW now on mig-29 UPG, full-tot from the Russkis and use of existing inventory of Russki weapons is a far more economical option, We could even go for around 200 fighters for a price that is far lower. More so the maitenance and engine, most avionics commnality would also save a ton of money. All in all the deal including weapons would be 10 billion cheaper for 200 fighters.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 19 Feb 2014 15:31

I think IAF's technical requirments should be burned in a firepit, The Mig-35 seems like the best option if IAF doesn't want to get into bed with Unkil. As long as we get a fighter with AESA, AESA based EW suite, new gen RAM coatings, Helmet mounted cueing, new gen OLS, IRST, with little mods it can even take off from Leh. Strengthening of the IAF cannot be at the expense of other sacrifices, we need reflex sights, BPJs and proper rifles just as much as we need more home made subs like the ATV. The savings from the scrapping of the Raffy deal can be used to finance the 14 Sqds of LCA mk-2. 200 Mig-35 including TOT and weapons shouldn't be more than $15-18 billion i.e 75-90 (this is a very high estimate, will never be so much)million per fighter (flyaway cost + service costs over a life time + weapons) thats a saving of atleast $10 billion, should be enough to order 170 more LCA mk-2 in addtion to the 130 Mk-2 already on order for IN and IAF. Now that would be a combine fleet of 200 Mig-35 plus roughly 300 LCA Tejas (500 fighters) in comparison to 126 Rafale, sorry but the sheer change in numbers is a valid enough point to scrap this BS deal.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Feb 2014 21:47

The IN acquired their 29Ks at a cost of $32M each.Even if one increases that to 40-45M each for an upgraded 29/35,120 should cost just around $5B.The armament will be the same as used on the upgraded 60+ 29UGs and the MKIs.They will carry the BMos-M too.The commonality of weaponry will actually bring down costs when acquired in large numbers.Given the original estimate for the MMRCA was supposed to be $12B+.That leaves us with another $5-7B in hand.40 more LCA MK-1s will cost us just $1B and another $5B is still available for either acquiring 1 or 2 sqds. of SU-34s, with another $1-2B for the FGFA programme ,or using the $5B for the FGFA and AMCA development.120 MIGs and 40 LCA MK1s will give us another 160 aircraft and if SU-34 tactical strike bombers are also acquired a whopping 200 diverse aircraft for just $10-12B! If one wants just one type then 200-240 MIG29UG/35s can be obtained for just 120 Rafales.

Even at a high estimate of $100-120M for an FGFA,JSF prices,one could get a combination of 120 MIG 29/35s,40 LCA MK-1s,plus 40 FGFAs (or 40 SU-34s with another $2B in hand).
There are enormous options of spending $10-12B cost-effectively by dumping the Rafale and spreading the money across the board on other key programmes.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Feb 2014 21:53

I would not mix and match 5th Gen crafts with lesser Gen planes. Not worth it. Let the FGFA and AMCA live their own lives.

And, I would differentiate between MiG-29K and other MiG-29 versions. The K I think is far superior. ???????

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Feb 2014 10:53

Will Serge Dassault’s Questionable Ethics Impact His Company’s Defense Business?

Serge Dassault, who heads Dassault Aviation, was taken into custody Wednesday for allegedly buying votes in Corbeil-Essonnes where he was formerly mayor. Dassault in 1998 received a two-year suspended prison sentence in Belgium for bribing members of the Socialist Party to win a helicopter deal.

Dassault’s Rafale aircraft won the Indian MMRCA contract in 2012, its first foreign fighter aircraft sale and the company is currently vying to supply jets to the UAE. It will be interesting to see how India will view Dassault’s latest trouble with the law. While there is no direct link between Serge Dassault’s present and past brushes with the law and bids for military and civilian aircraft contracts abroad, it could be hugely embarrassing for India if Serge Dassault’s questionable ethics dominate world headlines. zNew Delhi maintains zero tolerance to corruption in defence procurement and recently disbanded a helicopter contract with AgustaWestland merely on allegations of bribery without the outcome an investigation in India and Italy.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Feb 2014 11:03

shukla wrote:New Delhi maintains zero tolerance to corruption in defence procurement and recently disbanded a helicopter contract with AgustaWestland merely on allegations of bribery without the outcome an investigation in India and Italy.

Now that news made my day

They should rather frame it appropriately , New Delhi maintains zero tolerance to corruption in defence procurement when exposed by media and CAG .......else the tolerance level has no limits

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 22 Feb 2014 04:36

well said..

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 22 Feb 2014 14:39

Rafale : The timing of the sale to india become clearer

According to Europe 1 website on February 19, citing the head of the DGA [General Directorate for Armament], the list of Indian subcontractors would be arrested and a calendar for a signature take shape in the context of exclusive negotiations between the Indian state and Dassault Aviation for the purchase of Rafale fighter.
[...]
The very discreet Laurent Collet-Billon gave some information about the signing of the contract between India and Dassault Aviation, for the sale of 126 Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi.
"The partner identification phase is completed, so there is an agreement between Dassault and its main industrial partner of India, which is HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ld, ed.) In the coming weeks, technical and industrial discussions will be completed, "said Laurent Collet-Billon
[...]
There is an initial timetable . If the defense minister said in early February that no contract would be signed before May 2014, things should settle before May 2015, Laurent Collet- Billon said .
"I can not give you the precise date I hope it will be before the end of the year. Now the important thing is not to say that it will be in the month of December 2014 , the key is to see , at some point in 2014 or early 2015 , that the contract exists and is well implemented , " he said , adding :" It 's the goal . "
[...]
And Laurent Collet- Billon to conclude . "Once the elections are over and the new Indian government in place, we will continue discussions to finalize the contract . We tell to our Indian partners that we respect their decision-making process and the schedule associated with it . "

http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/ra ... e-1805521/

Signature not anticipated before late 2014 early 2015 apparently...