Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

JSF in the current context is virtually impossible for the IAF.
Yes its been cooking for 5 years:
So?

The statement was:
Unfortunately the Amerikhans will have a really really hard time convincing any serious Indian about JSF
What "convincing" did anyone have to do?

After all - no matter what - it was the Indians that approached with an RFI. Right?

And, for the record, I have never advocated the JSF for India. Still do not. Although - I agree - it may appear that I do so.
NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Dhananjay wrote:
NRao wrote:Done on their behalf already. {Not a big deal for those that follow news items}

Next. Hope surprises are not a problem for you.
Yes its been cooking for 5 years:

2010 AD news
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories462.htm
US offers F35JSF to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows
But Tehcnology Transfer will be an issue

New Delhi. The India-US defence cooperation seems to be steadily growing with Washington now offering its latest Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35 Lightning-II aircraft to India. But in the long run, there could be limitations over issues of Transfer of Technology (ToT) that India mandates now for major arms deals.

Representatives of Lockheed Martin, which is developing the aircraft, have indicated in the past that the aircraft could be available to India if the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted for the F-16 Super Viper in its quest for some 200 Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) but recently, the company made a presentation to the Indian Navy without this condition.

Some silly marketing/sales tactic that did not work. And people fall for it.

IF India opted for the JSF, they will sell it, even though India selected the rafale for the MMRCA.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Dhananjay wrote:Please make an offer what ToT, what manufacturing of jsf can be done here how much tech LM / boeing will be ready to part with. Or maybe you think that it is not in the national interest of Bharat to manufacture jsf here, as anyway more than 3000 jsf are to be made by US and to get the benefits of huge numbers we should just get them ready made and sign EULA EUMA CISMOA or whatever.
India can carry out airframe manufacture and licensed assembly (which may in fact assist in setting up the AMCA's production facilities). But it might be a mistake to do so.

First, because handed off technology isn't easily absorbed and can be substituted by focused outside consultancy.

Secondly, ToT has to be paid for (even for the Rafale). That not only increases the unit cost and it also diverts resources away from crucial projects like the Tejas and AMCA.

And third, the F-35 is cheap because its manufactured in bulk. Indian orders for the aircraft will be, or rather should be, limited. Ideally focused on high risk missions like SEAD, deep strike, anti-AWACS besides EW and functioning as a force multiplier. For a limited order, license production will be too expensive (see: Japan). The main focus needs to be on a scaled up AMCA.
I had seen through your clever ploy many pages back, when you had started the campaign of 100s of Tejas instead of Rafale, now real agenda gets exposed, Tejas is removed from the picture and now its your american jsf instead of Tejas.
The Tejas is removed from the picture, is it?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Oh boy!! Thankfully no mention of the JSF.

Rafale contract elusive, Eurofighter and Saab remain hopeful

More than two years after India's ministry of defence (MoD) chose to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), the world's biggest fighter contract swings in the wind. With no deal in sight after 28 months of haggling with Dassault, two of the losing vendors -Eurofighter and Saab - believe they could yet come out tops.

Eurofighter GmbH, whose Typhoon fighter narrowly lost out to the Rafale, still retains a senior executive in New Delhi. This is to allow Eurofighter - the official runner-up - to quickly step in should negotiations with Dassault collapse.

Swedish company, Saab, whose Gripen-D light fighter was evaluated but not selected, similarly believes the contract remains open. Saab places hope in a proposal that it formulated with the Defence Research and Developments Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop and co-manufacture the improved Tejas Mark II Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). This affordable, indigenous, single-engine fighter could be built in numbers, providing the IAF a more economical and effective option than limited numbers of enormously expensive, twin-engine Rafales.

Saab believes that a successful Tejas Mark II would erode the need for the Rafale. The Swedish company has offered co-development and co-manufacture of the Tejas Mark II, even whilst fielding the cheapest and most economical fighter of the six in the fray.

As IAF officers confirm, India had intended to buy a cheap, light fighter to replace the IAF's MiG-21s as they were phased out of service. In late 2004, IAF sent out a "request for information", to four manufacturers of small, cheap fighters - the Russian MiG-29; the American F-16; the French Mirage-2000-5, and the Saab Gripen.

Only in August 2007, when IAF issued a formal tender - termed "request for proposal", or RfP - were expensive, twin-engine fighters like the Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A-18 regarded as options. Today, with the economy stuttering, the daunting prospect of paying Rs 1,00,000 crore for 126 fighters could mean that low cost becomes decisive.

Saab sees further advantage in backing the indigenous horse, the Tejas Mark II. The Swedish company claims it is best suited for upgrading the Tejas Mark I, since it is currently upgrading the Gripen-D by fitting a new engine, the General Electric F-414 power pack. Upgrading the Tejas Mark I to Mark II specifications involves exactly the same upgrade.

Last DRDO chief, Dr V K Saraswat, was convinced that Saab's assistance would be ideal for the Tejas programme. In 2012, DRDO sent Saab a "Request for Information" asking a rough estimate of costs, which Saab duly submitted.

In Jan 2013, DRDO followed up with a RfP, asking for technical and financial bids for Saab to jointly audit the Tejas design with DRDO. Saab had proposed an eight-10 month long audit, after which a fresh design would be finalised and a manufacturing line established.

MoD sources tell Business Standard that Saab proposed in 2011 to co-develop the Tejas Mark II and roll it out from a new manufacturing line within five years. Saab wanted at least 51 per cent ownership of the joint venture company that built the new Tejas, to be free of government controls and procedures.

By May 2013, a joint design contract seemed imminent, says Saab. But on June 1, a new DRDO chief, Dr Avinash Chander, took charge and Saab was unofficially told that DRDO could not co-develop the Tejas with a foreign company without an international tender to select the partner.

Contacted for comments, a DRDO spokesperson told Business Standard that design work on the Tejas Mark II is proceeding satisfactorily without a foreign partner.

In fact, MoD sources admit the Tejas Mark II programme faces significant design challenges beyond merely fitting a new engine. The Tejas Mark I was not designed with operational availability in mind, with important systems placed in inaccessible places that take time for technicians to reach. The Gripen-D, in contrast, requires just five man-hours of maintenance for an hour of flying. (The figure for the Tejas is not available, but the Rafale is estimated to require 15 man-hours).

Furthermore, the new F-414 engine would require the Tejas' length to be increased by half a metre. In addition, experts say the air intakes will have to be redesigned, since they do not allow in sufficient air for even the F-404 engine, far less the more powerful F-414 that will be fitted.

Aerospace analysts acknowledge Saab's expertise in building economical and effective fighters. The Gripen-D costs half as much as a Rafale. International expert, Jane's, puts the operating cost of a Gripen at $4,700 per flight hour, while flying a Rafale for an hour costs $15,000.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cosmo_R »

^^^
The Rafale deal just is not going to happen. Money. NaMo has already said that his popularity may tank when he makes needed cuts to GoI spending.

I also believe this PAK/FA/FGFA stuff is DOA for the same reason.

My bet is the MK2 will pick up speed and a less ambitious AMCA
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

It should be some $0.75 billion per year for the rafale and about the same for the FGFA. Cannot spare $1.5 billion per year?

MMS was that bad, eh?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by eklavya »

Viv S wrote:Its an absurd argument that you're making here - *IAF wants the Rafale. The IAF is the govt. Which means the govt wants the Rafale. Debate settled.*
GoI (your definition i.e. babu) selected the Rafale. MMRCA is way too important to be left to the IAF alone. Even the Su-30 was chosen by PV Narasimha Rao.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_28476 »

to Viv S and some others. Maybe one day F-35 will beat RAfale "hands down" etc... When it will be operational? (remind me i guess it was scheduled for 2010 wasn't it?)
NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

remind me i guess it was scheduled for 2010 wasn't it?
Lol.

You should visit the mad thread. Also called the turkey thread. :)

You are so late to that party.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Victor »

True banias putting pressure on ze French. No way is anybody going to seriously consider the Eurofighter at this juncture which is at least as expensive and complicated as Rafale if not more so while any interest in the Gripen would mean that the LCA is officially dead. This is even before we consider the extra years our babus will take just to enter into tooth-pulling negotiations with an entirely new entity.

My guess is we will still go with Rafale or, if things are truly mucked up, a mix of Super Su-30MKI/MiG-35MKI and few off-the-shelf squadrons of Rafales or even F-18s with some Growlers thrown in. The off-the-shelf option is looking more plausible and attractive by the day, specially if the chosen company undertakes to help develop the LCA/MCA.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Viv S wrote:
Dhananjay wrote:Please make an offer what ToT, what manufacturing of jsf can be done here how much tech LM / boeing will be ready to part with. Or maybe you think that it is not in the national interest of Bharat to manufacture jsf here, as anyway more than 3000 jsf are to be made by US and to get the benefits of huge numbers we should just get them ready made and sign EULA EUMA CISMOA or whatever.
India can carry out airframe manufacture and licensed assembly (which may in fact assist in setting up the AMCA's production facilities). But it might be a mistake to do so.

First, because handed off technology isn't easily absorbed and can be substituted by focused outside consultancy.
Airframe, the composites shouldn't be manufactured here and taken all the way to raw material to end product stage? LM / Boeing will provide this 'focused outside consultancy' for Bharat to develop its own new generation composites metals for AMCA separately and we pay them fee. 'cause I remember around 4 years back they'd refused blankly to do consultancy for naval tejas testing schedule even, I think ef2k consortium had stepped in later but i'm not sure.
Secondly, ToT has to be paid for (even for the Rafale). That not only increases the unit cost and it also diverts resources away from crucial projects like the Tejas and AMCA.
But paying extra for consultancy is OK? I mean we buy jsf without any tech transfer while in a separate deal ask dassault / lm /boeing etc for consultancy to create foundaries for GaN chips, next generation composites , engine metals etc? And they'll give so we can make a product at par with theirs? Ok thanks for making your stand clear.
And third, the F-35 is cheap because its manufactured in bulk. Indian orders for the aircraft will be, or rather should be, limited. Ideally focused on high risk missions like SEAD, deep strike, anti-AWACS besides EW and functioning as a force multiplier. For a limited order, license production will be too expensive (see: Japan). The main focus needs to be on a scaled up AMCA.
Hmmm I see so IAF needs to change its strategy whatever it has drawn for 189 mmrca jets while also whatever they decided in consultation with DRDO to bring new techs by this deal; TO ACCOMMODATE JSF ACQUISITION. Interesting. Yup why put LM in such a position that they've to go to govt. again and again for ToT as already boeing/lm were facing lots of denials for AESA tech from congress already during mmrca.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

NRao wrote:
remind me i guess it was scheduled for 2010 wasn't it?
Lol.

You should visit the mad thread. Also called the turkey thread. :)

You are so late to that party.
:D

I think Rafale thread should be merged into jsf thread as now Rafale thread has become jsf sales pitch thread.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

eklavya wrote:GoI (your definition i.e. babu) selected the Rafale. MMRCA is way too important to be left to the IAF alone. Even the Su-30 was chosen by PV Narasimha Rao.
The MoD has only identified Rafale as L1. It is under no obligation to buy it and technically the EF is still in the running. The deal's not cleared the CNC so far, not to mention it still has to do through the MoF and CCS (neither of which are formalities).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

NRao wrote:It should be some $0.75 billion per year for the rafale and about the same for the FGFA. Cannot spare $1.5 billion per year?

MMS was that bad, eh?
IIRC about 15% of contract value is to be paid upfront. Which would be about $3 billion lump sum, or about the same as what we're paying for the 42 Super-30s in installments. (The MoF is going to have conniptions.)
Last edited by Viv S on 17 Jun 2014 08:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Pagot wrote:to Viv S and some others. Maybe one day F-35 will beat RAfale "hands down" etc... When it will be operational? (remind me i guess it was scheduled for 2010 wasn't it?)
When was the MMRCA originally intended was induction? Before 2010.

When will the Rafale now enter service? Earliest by 2017.

When will the F-35A be operational? Same year i.e. 2017.


In any case, the F-35 doesn't need to be a replacement for the MMRCA. The numbers shortfall can be addressed by hiking Tejas orders, possibly hiking Sukhoi orders, along with any second hand Mirages that are available. Supplement that with AEW&C units and mid-air refuelers and the capability shortfall is addressed.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

Dhananjay wrote:Airframe, the composites shouldn't be manufactured here and taken all the way to raw material to end product stage? LM / Boeing will provide this 'focused outside consultancy' for Bharat to develop its own new generation composites metals for AMCA separately and we pay them fee. 'cause I remember around 4 years back they'd refused blankly to do consultancy for naval tejas testing schedule even, I think ef2k consortium had stepped in later but i'm not sure.
Just what makes you so confident that we can't indigenously develop composites comparable to those employed in the Rafale?
But paying extra for consultancy is OK? I mean we buy jsf without any tech transfer while in a separate deal ask dassault / lm /boeing etc for consultancy to create foundaries for GaN chips, next generation composites , engine metals etc? And they'll give so we can make a product at par with theirs? Ok thanks for making your stand clear.
Consultancy can be focused on problem areas unlike full ToT with encompasses areas that we're strong in (like composites).

Are we getting foundries for GaN through the Rafale? Do you honestly think that we can pay for Rafale ToT and simply start churning out Rafale-NGs? Basically, take a shortcut to the top.
Hmmm I see so IAF needs to change its strategy whatever it has drawn for 189 mmrca jets while also whatever they decided in consultation with DRDO to bring new techs by this deal; TO ACCOMMODATE JSF ACQUISITION. Interesting. Yup why put LM in such a position that they've to go to govt. again and again for ToT as already boeing/lm were facing lots of denials for AESA tech from congress already during mmrca.
The Rafale's cost and delivery schedule has gone through a huge change as has the state of our finances, so yes I expect the IAF & GoI to adapt to that. And the solution to that is that is to cancel the MMRCA not replace it with the F-35. The IAF's falling force strength can be addressed by other ways particularly involving the Tejas. The F-35 can examined independently at its own pace, specifically for high risk missions.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

IIRC about 15% of contract value is to be paid upfront. Which would be about $3 billion lump sum
That should come out of the IAF's "budget".
Viv S wrote:
Pagot wrote:to Viv S and some others. Maybe one day F-35 will beat RAfale "hands down" etc... When it will be operational? (remind me i guess it was scheduled for 2010 wasn't it?)
When was the MMRCA originally intended was induction? Before 2010.
Mirage 2000 in 2005/6?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by srin »

Viv S wrote:
Pagot wrote:to Viv S and some others. Maybe one day F-35 will beat RAfale "hands down" etc... When it will be operational? (remind me i guess it was scheduled for 2010 wasn't it?)
When was the MMRCA originally intended was induction? Before 2010.

When will the Rafale now enter service? Earliest by 2017.

When will the F-35A be operational? Same year i.e. 2017.


In any case, the F-35 doesn't need to be a replacement for the MMRCA. The numbers shortfall can be addressed by hiking Tejas orders, possibly hiking Sukhoi orders, along with any second hand Mirages that are available. Supplement that with AEW&C units and mid-air refuelers and the capability shortfall is addressed.
You wouldn't think it possible but what does it say about our procurement process when it is slower than the F-35 development ?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by brar_w »

When will the F-35A be operational? Same year i.e. 2017
More like 2016 unless there is a few months delay and it spills over to 2017 (unlikely). Anyhow, not appropriate to talk of the JSF in the Rafale thread and to suggest the JSF for the MRCA is also rather absurd given that such a deal is totally impossible and would result in my best guess at least a decade of delay to the program. Might as well start with 6th gen in that case :).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by dipak »

Why India may shoot down Rafale fighters

By Ajai Shukla
Last DRDO chief, Dr V K Saraswat, was convinced that Saab's assistance would be ideal for the Tejas programme.

In 2012, the DRDO sent Saab a "Request for Information" asking a rough estimate of costs, which Saab duly submitted.

In January 2013, the DRDO followed up with an RfP, asking for technical and financial bids for Saab to jointly audit the Tejas design with DRDO. Saab had proposed an 8-10 month long audit, after which a fresh design would be finalised and a manufacturing line established.

MoD sources tell Business Standard that Saab proposed in 2011 to co-develop the Tejas Mark II and roll it out from a new manufacturing line within five years.

Saab wanted at least 51 per cent ownership of the joint venture company that built the new Tejas, to be free of government controls and procedures.

By May 2013, a joint design contract seemed imminent, says Saab.

But on June 1, new DRDO chief Dr Avinash Chander took charge and Saab was unofficially told that DRDO could not co-develop the Tejas with a foreign company without an international tender to select the partner.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

Why India may shoot down Rafale fighters
The entire part about shooting down Rafale fighters seems very much of a pipedream , however the only thing that i would support is the one below
Saab proposed in 2011 to co-develop the Tejas Mark II and roll it out from a new manufacturing line within five years
Leveraging the expertise of Saab for Tejas Mk.2 is something which should be seriously considered.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by JTull »

Paid news is making hayday!

A govt. which chose not to upset the cart on appointment of Army Chief, wouldn't go out of way to restart negotiations on a project that may or may not happen, further delaying the badly needed aircraft. This is one thing this govt. wouldn't do.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Paul »

My gut feel is until NaMo gets the inside story on the kickbacks and how much moolah is going to the termite queen he will not sign the contract.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Paul »

And possibly kill this deal if he deems it as not being in national interests.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Paul wrote:My gut feel is until NaMo gets the inside story on the kickbacks and how much moolah is going to the termite queen he will not sign the contract.
Even at the time of previous president sarkozy Sh. Subramanian Swamy had alleged before Rafale was shortlisted or even the results were out from IAF, that sonia's fellow italian (sarkozy's wife) have done the deal with hefty commission already paid to sonia.

Funny that the result came out exactly that many many months later, Rafale won. Until then nobody was sure.

So yes the 'italian hand'.....
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

SAAB getting 51% of a program funded by Indian taxpayer money. What a joke. :lol: :rotfl:
Wonder what brainwave they had - repackage Gripen with an Indian sticker and sell it back to India perhaps
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

Karan M wrote:SAAB getting 51% of a program funded by Indian taxpayer money. What a joke.
Yes valid point. SAAB not getting 51% for sure.
More to do with Saab getting the role of consultant in areas where there is such a scope like

- Areas where things needs to be expedited due to lack/limited internal knowledge,optimization etc
- to minimize reinventing the wheel
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Problem is our (Indian) interests are often orthogonal to those of worldwide OEMs and other arms manufacturing states who use these methods to keep us in perpetual chai biscoot sessions and nothing comes out of it. Why would SAAB for instance want a competitor to its Gripen NG? This was basically a cynical ploy to bypass the MMRCA downselect and get back into the competition via piggybacking on the DRDO Tejas program, being run by Indian tax money, and yet SAAB would keep its stuff going, with as much as possible of the Gripen being squeezed in/stickered as the Tejas MK2, defeating our entire intent of having a Tejas Mk2
Besides which, in many of these "ventures", they will offer all sorts of stuff initially, and at the end of the day, we are left holding the can, as it were, wondering where our money went.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

And the reinventing the wheel business- no offence intended but its the most abused term in Indian defence. Sir, if we don't know how to make a wheel to begin with, how will we make more advanced wheels or entire wheeled platforms? Somewhere along the way, we have to learn. Somehow, a lot of our so called analysts have this attitude that the world is sitting happily ready to teach us to make wheels or give us wheels, so we never need to learn how to make wheels, i.e. learn from basics. How can one do a graduate degree in a math heavy discipline (f.e.), if math tables (including 3x3) are beyond him.
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Post by Paul »

If this deal does not go through, a lot of people will be very upset. NaMo will really need his BP jacket to protect him from the arms lobby and not turn into a olaf palme.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by brar_w »

Karan M wrote:And the reinventing the wheel business- no offence intended but its the most abused term in Indian defence. Sir, if we don't know how to make a wheel to begin with, how will we make more advanced wheels or entire wheeled platforms? Somewhere along the way, we have to learn. Somehow, a lot of our so called analysts have this attitude that the world is sitting happily ready to teach us to make wheels or give us wheels, so we never need to learn how to make wheels, i.e. learn from basics. How can one do a graduate degree in a math heavy discipline (f.e.), if math tables (including 3x3) are beyond him.
It also applies to TOT, we won't all of a sudden begin making military engines at par or superior to Snecma, EW suites at par or better than Spectra etc just because we are getting tech transfer (and this obviously applies to any Tech transfer deal and not just that with dassault and co).
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Post by member_23694 »

Karan M wrote:Problem is our (Indian) interests are often orthogonal to those of worldwide OEMs and other arms manufacturing states who use these methods to keep us in perpetual chai biscoot sessions and nothing comes out of it. Why would SAAB for instance want a competitor to its Gripen NG? This was basically a cynical ploy to bypass the MMRCA downselect and get back into the competition via piggybacking on the DRDO Tejas program, being run by Indian tax money, and yet SAAB would keep its stuff going, with as much as possible of the Gripen being squeezed in/stickered as the Tejas MK2, defeating our entire intent of having a Tejas Mk2
Agreed. Most of your points are valid and if SAAB had similar intention to ultimately exploit us then there loss.
My point of view was more to do from overall project perspective which could be something similar in line to Barak 8 agreement with Israel though with probably limited scope. DRDO pick and choose the areas where it would like such consultancy with some tangible end result and timeline.
Further DRDO after having developed expertise through LCA should outsource most of the development activities related to evolutionary tech to vendor and focus its effort on more critical tech for Mk.2 / AMCA etc.
Just got a link
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 006_1.html

which talks about DRDO approach for Barak-8 development activity. I am not sure about the seeker tech availability to India but from overall project management perspective I think this an efficient way to go forward at least for Tejas Mk.2.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Dhiraj, Barak-2 was stuck in limbo - IAI gave us the haath and focused on its BMD programs. At the end of the day, being dependent on an external partner to do the heavy lifting has significant risks, which we are learning the hard way. HAL with the IJT engine for example.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by RoyG »

Jaitely wouldn't have said anything about the deal if there was any inkling of kickbacks. It will go through in the next 3-5 months. It's done.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

RoyG wrote:Jaitely wouldn't have said anything about the deal if there was any inkling of kickbacks. It will go through in the next 3-5 months. It's done.
The main argument against the deal would be financial rather than one of impropriet. That said, what statement did the minister make about the deal? All I heard was that he got an elaborate briefing on it from the IAF chief.
JTull
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by JTull »

Karan M wrote:Problem is our (Indian) interests are often orthogonal to those of worldwide OEMs and other arms manufacturing states who use these methods to keep us in perpetual chai biscoot sessions and nothing comes out of it. Why would SAAB for instance want a competitor to its Gripen NG? This was basically a cynical ploy to bypass the MMRCA downselect and get back into the competition via piggybacking on the DRDO Tejas program, being run by Indian tax money, and yet SAAB would keep its stuff going, with as much as possible of the Gripen being squeezed in/stickered as the Tejas MK2, defeating our entire intent of having a Tejas Mk2
Besides which, in many of these "ventures", they will offer all sorts of stuff initially, and at the end of the day, we are left holding the can, as it were, wondering where our money went.
Karan M wrote:And the reinventing the wheel business- no offence intended but its the most abused term in Indian defence. Sir, if we don't know how to make a wheel to begin with, how will we make more advanced wheels or entire wheeled platforms? Somewhere along the way, we have to learn. Somehow, a lot of our so called analysts have this attitude that the world is sitting happily ready to teach us to make wheels or give us wheels, so we never need to learn how to make wheels, i.e. learn from basics. How can one do a graduate degree in a math heavy discipline (f.e.), if math tables (including 3x3) are beyond him.
+1
Nothing more need be said.
SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

If we have a strong vision to take LCA Mk3 (say twin engine demonstrator to AMCA), then can throw away this ToT aspect, and re-negotiate with Rafale for outright purchase and support. Let us not make anything here for Rafale. If that proposition is not agreeable, then there is no way we can avoid paying huge amounts for little benefits just under the name of screw driver technology transfer. We don't need fittings and settings blueprints. That aspects must be taken up by DRDO, IITs, and other labs to help establish private industries with production engineering and concurrent engineering. The gov must trust in terms of large orders and make things work for economies of scale.

Rafale did realize this ahead, and offered us outright purchase of 40 of them some eons back.. we failed to understand that 3x3 math
Philip
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

There was an article in IMR reg. the crash of a MIG-21 and the fact that an IAF officer ,Wg Cdr.Kalia has even filed a case against the use of the aircraft,fundamental "right to life,working in a safe environment", whatever.."Even the upgraded Bisons are old and do not have the same life expectancy as new aircraft.DEspite his Dec 2012 petition to the govt. (UPA/Cong),there was no response from the govt. One is sure that the new govt. will have its hands full with many such issues.

"Unimpressed" with the Mk-1 LCA,only 40 have been ordered and to be based at Sulur "far from our borders",engine integration with Mk-2 is still in the works,no idea when it will be ready,so when the definitive LCA will arrive with its full capability is still a long way off and anyone's guess.Coupled to this fact is that the Jaguar upgrades are in serious trouble for a variety of reasons.The HAL upgrade to "DARIN-3" std. has failed to meet objectives.61 aircraft were meant to be upgraded by 2017.It is now evident that even by 22019,we will not have the upgraded Jags.Price negotiations with Honywell for engines have yet to even start! Then how was the HW
engine chosen over the EJ one years ago? The Jaguars are 4 decades old.It now appears that both the Jags and the LCA MK-2s will roll out hopefully only after 2020.
SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

yes.. there is a need to get new platforms is established 20 years back, and still we are struggling to place orders.

the only fact remains is that our procurement process looking for all mother of all deals is pathetic approach leading to scams and bribery.
we have seen enough of this. no?

we need 2 year flat usage procurement policy with minimum of couple of squadrons strength in that time frame.

it does not take 6 months to evaluate 600 odd parameters, and throw away that as nothing done.

there needs to be time bound process that exactly delivers the platforms to the forces.

1 year is a reasonable time, with 2 years max for all procurements. After that all deals, in whatever state gets canceled. start afresh!
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