Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 02:31

arthuro wrote:With all due respect, I could return the argument about "jingoism" regarding the Tejas.

You cant because unlike you I am not behaving like a know it all comparing both aircraft on speculative data which is not even specific about any clear details and quotes an unsourced "officer".

If I were to behave as as you did, then yeah I would be jingoistic. Your initial post speaks for itself, no need to paint yourself lily white now, it won't fly.

I probably know more than you think although I admit I am not a die hard expert of this program like many on this respectable board.

No, you probably don't know much at all about the program and nor are you in the least bothered about doing basic research, because if you had, you would spend some time on fuel carried, powerplant, performance achieved & quickly realize that the LCA compares welll with its peers & second, you would not have made the silly comment about 30 years either vs the Rafale, given the LCA was entirely meant to be a light fighter.

But simply by taking a bird's eye view you can quickly and safely see that there are quite some delusion regarding this program. First of all, except for a few isolated articles, we cannot say that the Tejas program has ever been considered as a credible alternative to MRCA except on Indian forums (note that MRCA goes beyond the rafale). Actually I was amazed that the Tejas program was not even pert of the IAF priority list which tells everything. I found that the article I quoted illustrated the limitation of the Tejas program some refused to acknowledge.

I am constantly amazed by the number of assumptions you make about an AF you don't know much about, about posters whose arguments you dont understand & then the manner in which you dismiss their points as something they refuse to acknowledge, based on a dubious article which you rush to post.

Did the IAF call you and tell you that the LCA is not part of their priority list as versus some media reports of unsourced provenance?

Do you even understand that the bulk of the Tejas funding is under a different head than the IAFs and comes under MOD & hence the IAF only has to worry about acquisition costs which will anyways be budgeted for, given its importance? That the program is fully funded already for MK-2? That 99 engines for MK-2 hence have been contracted for? Basically, you don't even get how the local procurement is set up, yet you make the claim "not in the IAFs priority list" based on some graphic you would have seen.

Next, if the Rafale is too expensive for the current Indian govt, it makes sense for them to hedge using alternatives. Revert to a high low mix using more Sukhois and more LCAs. Quite like other AFs instead of going high-medium-light by weight class as the IAF originally wanted.

And that stuff about Indian forums? Oh please, as if the French forums are full of decorum and unemotional rationale. Rafale vs F-22 enough said.

I really say this without anger, without passion and with full respect of the effort done on the Tejas Program...As an external observer I note that for dozen of pages many talk about the Tejas or the F35 as possible alternative to the MRCA. But for different reasons it clearly appears that it won't happen. Pointing this immediately makes me a naughty jingoistic rafale supporter.

Naah, none of that makes you a jingoistic Rafale supporter, what does make you one is your record of trying to run down other programs while bragging up the Rafale and in the immediate case, the manner in which you rushed to make an unsourced, unverified claim about the LCA while gleefully claiming that it was all that was achieved in 30 years.

Congratulations, you are now the equivalent of the Americans who rush to youtube to gleefully post about how the F-22 is better each time a Rafale crashes (US has stealth, lol all France could do in 30 years was "This") and the Brits who take pride in pointing out no Rafale has been exported till date and it has "only 800 radar modules" (same logic like yours, using similar sources).

Go figure.

Your over reaction is a mirror to your own jingoism.

Nice...silly edits again and again to your posts to get the last word in... twice around. Good job.

No actually, I am not overreacting. I am just pointing out the amazing amount of arrogance you display in making all sorts of unverified claims and stereotypical assertions which actually hold true for you & your ilk as well (the rabid Rafale fan club, Arthuro, Fonk/Sampaix et al) and the manner in which you loudly yack up your aircraft while decrying all others.

If you had the actual information to make your argument properly, you would point to the Rafales capabilities which stands on their own merit & bring out USPs. Unfortunately, you don't know much about other programs either to make that sort of comparison so you just run them down and yell "buy French".

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Jul 2014 02:33

Sumeet wrote:Arthuro,

Tejas in different blocks will be bulk/backbone of IAF. IAF and India both are going to make it happen. Considering where we started and what we faced we are progressing quite well. As some people in this forum have mentioned it needs more support in terms of monetary resources and test facilities and infrastructure.

It's range is not 200 kms. Please visit LCA thread for discussion on that.

Tejas is not MRCA alternative and hence the MRCA tender from IAF.

Thanks for the answer.

I agree that 200Km is not the typical range for the Tejas, just like 1000Km is well bellow the rafale range (both figures quoted by the same IAF official). However it still seems very realistic to me for a demanding scenario, typically a supersonic intercept QRA with a full load of missiles.

The range you usually have in mind for the Tejas and which differ from 200Km are performed in ideal or average conditions without intensive use of AB.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 02:43

Have you flown the Tejas? How do you know it doesnt have 100 km range or 300 km for a supersonic QRA? What is "a full load of missiles"?

What types of QRAs does the IAF fly? Do you know the specific ranges for any profile? What kind of fuel fraction is carried for such a mission?

Why do you continue blowing smoke on an aircraft you dont have details on?

Pathetic.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 02:48

NRao wrote:

Found this:

* French believe that the rafale is as good as a 5th Gen plane
* "5th Gen" is cursed, and
* France prefer to skip to the "6th Gen"

Which French savant on which French board wrote that?
Must have had one bottle of wine too many & must be thinking of some way to make the Rafale 6G like the fervent Photoshoppers on the net.

Even the IAF knows the Rafale is firmly 4G+ only & is relying on the FGFA for its 5G plans.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Jul 2014 03:08

With all due respect, I could return the argument about "jingoism" regarding the Tejas.

You cant because unlike you I am not behaving like a know it all comparing both aircraft on speculative data which is not even specific about any clear details and quotes an unsourced "officer".

>> Still a quoted article with an IAF source. You don't know exact conditions for nominal range either. Second this comparison would be true not only for the rafale but most of other MRCA as well.

If I were to behave as as you did, then yeah I would be jingoistic. Your initial post speaks for itself, no need to paint yourself lily white now, it won't fly.

>> Being oversensitive on this topic is a sign of jingoism. Calling into question some beliefs on the Tejas program is obviously a touchy topic when you talk with someone with a jingoistic bias. I am open minded on this matter and ready to learn and admit I was wrong. I just gave my analysis of the program with a bird eye view, I will be happy to discuss it in a calm and civilized discussion.

I probably know more than you think although I admit I am not a die hard expert of this program like many on this respectable board.

No, you probably don't know much at all about the program and nor are you in the least bothered about doing basic research, because if you had, you would spend some time on fuel carried, powerplant, performance achieved & quickly realize that the LCA compares welll with its peers & second, you would not have made the silly comment about 30 years either vs the Rafale, given the LCA was entirely meant to be a light fighter.

>> If you say so...Then it must be true...But to be honest there is something that doesn't match: why isn't the Tejas competing head on on international market then ? The Gripen is doing well and the Tejas could be a fierce competitor.

But simply by taking a bird's eye view you can quickly and safely see that there are quite some delusion regarding this program. First of all, except for a few isolated articles, we cannot say that the Tejas program has ever been considered as a credible alternative to MRCA except on Indian forums (note that MRCA goes beyond the rafale). Actually I was amazed that the Tejas program was not even pert of the IAF priority list which tells everything. I found that the article I quoted illustrated the limitation of the Tejas program some refused to acknowledge.

I am constantly amazed by the number of assumptions you make about an AF you don't know much about, about posters whose arguments you dont understand & then the manner in which you dismiss their points as something they refuse to acknowledge, based on a dubious article which you rush to post.

Did the IAF call you and tell you that the LCA is not part of their priority list as versus some media reports of unsourced provenance?

Do you even understand that the bulk of the Tejas funding is under a different head than the IAFs and comes under MOD & hence the IAF only has to worry about acquisition costs which will anyways be budgeted for, given its importance? That the program is fully funded already for MK-2? That 99 engines for MK-2 hence have been contracted for? Basically, you don't even get how the local procurement is set up, yet you make the claim "not in the IAFs priority list" based on some graphic you would have seen.

Next, if the Rafale is too expensive for the current Indian govt, it makes sense for them to hedge using alternatives. Revert to a high low mix using more Sukhois and more LCAs. Quite like other AFs instead of going high-medium-light by weight class as the IAF originally wanted.

And that stuff about Indian forums? Oh please, as if the French forums are full of decorum and unemotional rationale. Rafale vs F-22 enough said.

>> Thanks for the effort to get a structured answer. You could have left aside the "emotional aspect though". I understand the sense of debating the LCA as an alternative on forum as it indeed has theoretical advantages. However I did not see this analysis shared by the IAF. I mean they could have come with a plan B with the tejas but if I understand well it is not a replacement for MRCA.

I really say this without anger, without passion and with full respect of the effort done on the Tejas Program...As an external observer I note that for dozen of pages many talk about the Tejas or the F35 as possible alternative to the MRCA. But for different reasons it clearly appears that it won't happen. Pointing this immediately makes me a naughty jingoistic rafale supporter.

Naah, none of that makes you a jingoistic Rafale supporter, what does make you one is your record of trying to run down other programs while bragging up the Rafale and in the immediate case, the manner in which you rushed to make an unsourced, unverified claim about the LCA while gleefully claiming that it was all that was achieved in 30 years.

>> Correction, my claim was backed by a source. You can rightfully call into question the numbers but I did quote the article. You say that I implied it was all it has achieved in 30 years. Perhaps I wrote to fast but this has never been my intention. Probably a bit of over reaction on your side as well.

Congratulations, you are now the equivalent of the Americans who rush to youtube to gleefully post about how the F-22 is better each time a Rafale crashes (US has stealth, lol all France could do in 30 years was "This") and the Brits who take pride in pointing out no Rafale has been exported till date and it has "only 800 radar modules" (same logic like yours, using similar sources).

>> This is an unfunded accusation, I understand the limit of quotes for both sides. For instance: 200Km range might be plausible for a demanding mission profile but it is certainly not Tejas nominal range. Just like I understand that nominal ranges you quote are not the exact picture as well but an "indication".

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Jul 2014 03:16

Karan M wrote:Have you flown the Tejas? How do you know it doesnt have 100 km range or 300 km for a supersonic QRA? What is "a full load of missiles"?

What types of QRAs does the IAF fly? Do you know the specific ranges for any profile? What kind of fuel fraction is carried for such a mission?

Why do you continue blowing smoke on an aircraft you dont have details on?

Pathetic.

Some discuss about the F35 as an alternative, others the Tejas then the SH, the F16...There are a lot of speculations and talks, just get used to it and don't get offended

There isn't anything shocking by making realistic assumptions. Business as usual on a forum. If we could not talk about anything without every details I guess there would be very few discussions.

gn!

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Jul 2014 04:27

What about selling France with weaponry equivalent in amount ot the Rafale deal. France dont produce many stuff like rocket artillery and all. So there is option for us to sell them the latest Pinaka Mark-II variant, Medium Helicopters like Dhruv/Rudra, tactical battlefield missiles like Ashwin, Anti-ballistic missiles. The sale can be spread over 10 years timeframe. The GoI can surely pursue this with the French government so that both nations benefits.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jul 2014 04:35

Even the Rafale, for France, is an overkill. That was reflected in the lower production and parent company having to go it alone - French gov willing to go only so far.

Who is France going to go to war with?

India should keep in touch with them.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 02 Jul 2014 04:47

Paul wrote:Kill two birds with one stone....call off the deal and place a second order of 6 more scorpenes.

Actually kill off the MMRCA and order 6 more Arihants Mk2

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2014 07:24

vishal thapar has disowned an article published in his name saying rafale deal is off and gripen and EF are back in running.
see livefist.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jul 2014 07:33

arthuro wrote:... First of all, except for a few isolated articles, we cannot say that the Tejas program has ever been considered as a credible alternative to MRCA except on Indian forums (note that MRCA goes beyond the rafale). Actually I was amazed that the Tejas program was not even pert of the IAF priority list which tells everything. I found that the article I quoted illustrated the limitation of the Tejas program some refused to acknowledge.

...

The IAF has plans for a fleet consisting of Heavy, Medium and Light multi-role combat aircrafts. Tejas falls into the light multi-role combat aircraft category. Examples of light category are MiG-21, T-50, Mako and Tejas LCA. It is not competing in the MRCA (i.e. medium category such as JSF, Rafale, Eurofighter, F-16, F-18, MiG-29, Mirage-2000 and AMCA). Examples of Heavy category are Su-30MKI, F-15, F-22 and FGFA. Each of these categories fulfils different combat niche.

Here is a diagram that illustrates the roles envisioned for the three categories of combat aircraft in the IAF:

(click for larger image)

In the Indian scenario, two main adversaries Pakistan and China are right at its border. One can expect a lot of action within 100km radius from the international demarcation lines in any future conflicts between these neighbouring nations. The IAF has plenty of forward airbases to make the most effective and efficient use of light combat aircrafts for these short-ranged missions (i.e. ~200km round-trip w/ some additional reserves).

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 02 Jul 2014 08:38

MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract

As the French foreign minister Laurent Fabius met Indian political leadership, including prime minister Narendra Modi, pressing for sealing the multi-billion Rafale combat aircraft deal, New Delhi has raised serious concerns over the cost escalation of the fighter jet deal. Struggling to pay the heavy cost of the deal, the ministry of defence (MoD) is considering an option of down-sizing the deal from 126 to 80 fighter jets.

According to officials, who are privy to the development, defence ministry has asked the French government to revise the price structure because the deal has gone much beyond the expected lines. And during course of negotiations with the Dassault, which manufactures Rafale jets, the defence ministry has been asking for price revision. Due to difference of opinion, the cost negotiation committee, which was set up in February 2012 to work out the modalities for the deal, has not been able reach conclusion and the committee is yet to submit its report to the ministry.

Officials claim that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion. When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs1.08 lakh crore). And now with inclusion of transfer of technology, life cycle cost and creating assembly line, the deal has virtually cross whopping $20 billion.

A top official told dna that if the government signs the deal in the next couple of months, it has to pay advance payment of at least $1.5-2 billion (Rs.9- 12,000 crore) to Dassault. And for the newly-elected BJP-led NDA government will have to compromise on other defence equipment, as major chunk of defence budget will go in for the advance payment. And it is also believed to understand that new government is also not comfortable with the life cycle cost method adopted by the previous UPA-II government and even a senior BJP leader and former finance minister Yashwant Sinha had objected to the life cycle criteria.

"Cost escalations and disagreements over production sharing with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL) has led to the delay in freezing the contract. French have been asked to re-look at the price factor,"said an officer.

IAF officials maintain even if the deal is signed by the end this year, first lot of Rafale aircraft will arrive India by 2017. And by the time, IAF has to phase out its MiG 21 squadrons.

The air force is seeking to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter and MMRCA fits between India's hig-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, it only has 30 squadrons operational as old aircraft have been retired.

Eighteen of the 126 planes will be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the other 108 under a licence, at an upcoming facility in Bangalore.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Jul 2014 08:41

Singha wrote:vishal thapar has disowned an article published in his name saying rafale deal is off and gripen and EF are back in running.
see livefist.

I believe he then deleted the tweet in which he disowned the article.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Jul 2014 08:49

Karan M wrote:Actually seeing the silly arrogance of select french posters like arthuro, acting as if they are doing India a favor by selling the Rafale and making silly threats ("Indias image will suffer if it cancels the tender"), one wonders whether equally idiotic behavior at the Dassault end is not holding up the deal. What of Dassaults image if it loses the deal?

Might be worth sounding out the Germans about the Eurofighter. Both fighters made the downselect after all.

The only thing the French value is money all said and done. Them having done us a "big favor" by not making noises during the nuke tests aren't exactly worth 16 Billion $. And what of summoning the Indian ambassador over Kandhamal? That arrogance was quickly forgotten even as they were herding the Roma like animals.

If this deal doesnt go through, it might not be such a bad thing to reinvest in our own capabilities and will pay off well over the long term if we can hedge the short term.

French/Euro/Russian/US arrogance, while irritating, is not so much the issue, what is really galling is the IAF's rather poor support of the Tejas. Can you really expect the French or others to lose opportunities to take potshots, when the iaf and local media seem go do their v.best to downplay its capabilities?

Of course, the psus also have themselves to blame , how many deadlines have they missed?, and to make ridiculously tall claims to boot. I rememe KH, with all due respect, recently taking potshots at the Chinese aviation industry and suggesting that we are on par with Europe in this field, what is the need for such tall claims. For any serious enthusiast, it hurts credibility.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Jul 2014 09:13

SanjayC wrote:
MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract
]

Good news, if true. Get a few birds, some scorps, from France, possibly some mirages too. Use the rest for other desperate needs. And yes, amca with two kaveris. Dare I say Tejas2 might also be rethought with kaveri or eh200 or rd33s - there are some serious reservations regarding the US engines if former acm is to be believed. a few more sqd of Mk1s could be purchased though, but the R and D effort should go into AMCA.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Jul 2014 09:27

So New Production line in India only for 62 fighters ??

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 02 Jul 2014 09:31

SanjayC wrote:MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract

80 instead of 126 would be prohibitively expensive if we insist on still making them in India with ToT etc. Time has come to eat grass and buy them off the shelf then put the money saved into LCA2 and turning IJT into a CAS aircraft with a bigass engine, 30mm cannon, unguided rockets and short range AA missiles. We'll get them sooner which is goal # 1. None of this will work unless private companies are given control.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Jul 2014 09:36

No need for line in India. keep costs down, 2 sqd for strategic command, off the shelf fms route type thing. there is hardly anything on the rafale India can't get via piecemeal deals, fgfa, and in house development. Time to move on.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2014 09:40

arthuro wrote: With all due respect, I could return the argument about "jingoism" regarding the Tejas. I probably know more than you think although I admit I am not a die hard expert of this program like many on this respectable board. But simply by taking a bird's eye view you can quickly and safely see that there are quite some delusion regarding this program. First of all, except for a few isolated articles, we cannot say that the Tejas program has ever been considered as a credible alternative to MRCA except on Indian forums (note that MRCA goes beyond the rafale). Actually I was amazed that the Tejas program was not even pert of the IAF priority list which tells everything. I found that the article I quoted illustrated the limitation of the Tejas program some refused to acknowledge.<SNIP>

arthuro - I'm stating this in my capacity as FORUM MODERATOR: This is a thread to discuss Rafale and NOT Tejas. There is a dedicated thread on Tejas and if you feel the need to discuss the merit(s) of Tejas, please proceed there. No need to indulge in unnecessary debate based on wrong assumptions here which is simply leading to flame war. Please keep this in mind henceforth.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 02 Jul 2014 09:58

Good decision if true , there must be some contingency plan in mind of IAF think tanks.

But HAL might not find it feasible to produce this small number.
Also how true this report is still in question.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Jul 2014 10:24

Acquiring from France may or may not be the fastest way out. The production line is producing aircraft for France at the moment and may require more for Qatar if they ever decide on a fighter acquisition. Not sure how fast they can ramp up and to what extent. Getting all of the fighters from france may be slower then to get a squadron from them and license build the rest at home although the cost would be much higher for a low volume assembly line.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Jul 2014 10:47

^iirc the line has a capcity of 30 birds per year, should be no problems even if Qatari deal goes through. Present rate is eleven per year.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jul 2014 10:55

I would take the news of downsizing Rafale deal with the bag full of salt coming from DNA all the more , We need to wait for MOD to confirm.

It wont be economical for HAL to lic built small numbers in their new expensive facility.

We should likely aim for 200 Rafale atleast to keep production viable and lowering the cost.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 02 Jul 2014 11:15

It has not been reported by anyone else. I will wait for it to be proven genuine first.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 02 Jul 2014 13:13

I think there is no point reducing the numers of the Rafale from 126 to 80. If we are bent on having the Rafale regardless of the spiraling price, we might as well order 200 right away and cut the cost of acquistion by 20-25% with revised price nego and have a superior force with both strength in capability+ strength in numbers.

we can save money on the Rafale deal by making sure we don't buy expensive French weapons. Since delivery is still atleast a couple of years away, we can focus on integrating hopefully as soon as they land Astra Mk-2/Python-5/Sudarshan LGB/ Mini Brahmos/ CBU-105SFW (we should order more of these i.e another 1500 to supplement the 500 already ordered would be the most useful of weapons against hordes of Chi-Pak vehicles/armor). We can also order a few thousand each of SDBs/JDAM-ER/Paveways to keep the PGM cost reasonable.

I think there should be enough existing Paveway/Mica stocks to keep it going till these weapons can be integrated.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jul 2014 13:29

Indeed Rafale number for Medium fighter role would easily go up to 200 in the current and next decade.

Even for fighters that we did outright purchase like M2K and Mig-29 we ended up buy a squadron or two of the type directly from OEM.

In case of lic production be it Jags , Mig-21/27 , MKI the number has always grown and Jags are still in production.

Make no Mistake Rafale will easily cross the 200 mark and may even rival MKI purchase in numbers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2014 15:02

that would be the RIP & last rites of the Tejas mk2 and AMCA which have one feet in the grave already.

with easy access to imported BMW, no pilot is going to like making do with maruti product.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 02 Jul 2014 15:17

We can scrap the deal and award french with some other deal. Money is going to be serious problem for the next few years.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jul 2014 15:20

Singha wrote:that would be the RIP & last rites of the Tejas mk2 and AMCA which have one feet in the grave already.

with easy access to imported BMW, no pilot is going to like making do with maruti product.

Not sure why Tejas is dragged in to every Rafale deal , I am sure if Tejas Mk2 was to be a 1:1 replacement for Medium fighter then they would have done that by now , Neither ADA or IAF is claiming Tejas is a medium class fighter.

AMCA has some time to go but I think when it comes it will replace the Jags and M2K.

Not to mentioned we are already under staved in Squadron Strength when our strength is suppose to be 45 squadron we are down under 30 , so we still have 15 Squadron of fighter that need to be replaced to achieve that goal thats ~ 300 fighter , not to mention many within the current 30 squadron needs replacement.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Jul 2014 15:25

Singha wrote:that would be the RIP & last rites of the Tejas mk2 and AMCA which have one feet in the grave already.

with easy access to imported BMW, no pilot is going to like making do with [s]maruti[/s] nano product.

+100 or guess import lobby is trying really hard before our own projects are about to be inducted in the active service. History repeating (e.g. Arjun).

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Jul 2014 15:31

Austin wrote: Not sure why Tejas is dragged in to every Rafale deal , I am sure if Tejas Mk2 was to be a 1:1 replacement for Medium fighter then they would have done that by now , Neither ADA or IAF is claiming Tejas is a medium class fighter.

AMCA has some time to go but I think when it comes it will replace the Jags and M2K.

Not to mentioned we are already under staved in Squadron Strength when our strength is suppose to be 45 squadron we are down under 30 , so we still have 15 Squadron of fighter that need to be replaced to achieve that goal thats ~ 300 fighter , not to mention many within the current 30 squadron needs replacement.

Why can not you state facts? we have 32 squadrons against sectioned strength of 39. Since when Mig-21s are Medium fighters as Rafale is supposed to replace those as LCA is running late.

People were complaining about LCA not having IOC and now they are complaining about mk2

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jul 2014 15:42

Well the 32 squadron is just the offical number the real value of operational fighter is much lower.

And IAF is aiming for 45 Squadron due to deployment planned in NE.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 02 Jul 2014 15:46

Time to start making space in the front lawn of the HAL museum in Benguluru.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2014 16:34

yes the Tejas mockup can be replaced with the real thing.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jul 2014 18:01

Good and the bad:

Jul 1, 2014 :: AGENCE FRANCE PRESS :: France hopeful for India defense deals

Not a done deal as yet. But (rightly) should go through.

However, here is the bone in the meat:

“We are pretty confident in swift developments and it would be very important because stemming from this contract we can develop a large partnership in the domain of defense,” Fabius told a press conference. He underscored that the new right-wing government, which swept to power in May with the strongest mandate in 30 years, was “keen on the efficiency and implementation of decisions.”

If I read this right it means that any cooperation in the future, with France, would be based on this deal.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 19:01

arthuro wrote:>> Still a quoted article with an IAF source. You don't know exact conditions for nominal range either. Second this comparison would be true not only for the rafale but most of other MRCA as well.

What IAF source? What were his details, his awareness/exposure to the Tejas program which right now is known only to AHQ, Test Squadrons and ASTE. Simply put, you are clutching at straws.

>> Being oversensitive on this topic is a sign of jingoism. Calling into question some beliefs on the Tejas program is obviously a touchy topic when you talk with someone with a jingoistic bias. I am open minded on this matter and ready to learn and admit I was wrong. I just gave my analysis of the program with a bird eye view, I will be happy to discuss it in a calm and civilized discussion.

No, you are the individual who jumped in with an irrelevant comparison & a snide comment about "30 years" to merely make a 200 km fighter (ah, the fools) based on some unsourced data. Analysis? Please don't make me laugh. When was the last time you actually did any analysis on any program bar some random comments which invariably turn out to be your bias in play (Rafale uber alles, EF sux, F35 sux, Su-30 sux, LCA sux).

If you actually had your eyes open, you would not constantly attempt to make irrelevant comparisons with other programs in order to somehow play up the Rafale. Unfortunately, your record on the matter is open & so is your attitude which you attempt to cloak under a guise of objectivity.

If you actually knew enough about the Rafale as well, you wouldnt have to resort to such dodgy claims.

You are quite rabid about the Rafale. Don't pass it off as objectivity.

>> If you say so...Then it must be true...But to be honest there is something that doesn't match: why isn't the Tejas competing head on on international market then ? The Gripen is doing well and the Tejas could be a fierce competitor.

I mean, are you being serious? Do you even understand how irrelevant your comment is?
Tejas is in development. Its first priority is the Indian AF not the export market. It needs to satisfy the customer for which the Govt funds it. Period. Exports are an icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
That you bring in "export comparisons" to the Gripen merely proves the point that all you indulge in are irrelevant shoot and scoot compares.

>> Thanks for the effort to get a structured answer. You could have left aside the "emotional aspect though". I understand the sense of debating the LCA as an alternative on forum as it indeed has theoretical advantages. However I did not see this analysis shared by the IAF. I mean they could have come with a plan B with the tejas but if I understand well it is not a replacement for MRCA.

What emotional aspect? I am calling a spade a spade. You made some pompous comments on "Indian forums and Tejas" - I merely pointed out pound for pound, French forums are equal and worse. Comparisons to F22, playing up the Rafales "stealth" and selectively harping on data - all done and worse.

As regards, analysis shared by the IAF, why should they? Is it their job to share common sensical info which is known to everybody who follows the program?

>> Correction, my claim was backed by a source. You can rightfully call into question the numbers but I did quote the article. You say that I implied it was all it has achieved in 30 years. Perhaps I wrote to fast but this has never been my intention. Probably a bit of over reaction on your side as well.

Sorry, but your source was dodgy and as regards your intention, proof of the pudding is in the eating & I have seen enough in the past about your "comparisons" to other programs, based on equally dodgy data, that pretty much lays your intentions bare. Yes, we get it, you rabidly support the Rafale, its the best thing since sliced bread. Yes, its the bee's knees and all that. Spare us the dodgy comparisons though.

>> This is an unfunded accusation, I understand the limit of quotes for both sides. For instance: 200Km range might be plausible for a demanding mission profile but it is certainly not Tejas nominal range. Just like I understand that nominal ranges you quote are not the exact picture as well but an "indication".

Its hardly an unfounded accusation when you employ the same methods & same selective cherrypicking of dubious data for silly propaganda purposes. Much like the rabid youtube crowd who play up "their" aircraft versus the others.
As regards your comment about ranges, simply put, without details, your claims about plausibility or not, are irrelevant

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 19:09

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:Actually seeing the silly arrogance of select french posters like arthuro, acting as if they are doing India a favor by selling the Rafale and making silly threats ("Indias image will suffer if it cancels the tender"), one wonders whether equally idiotic behavior at the Dassault end is not holding up the deal. What of Dassaults image if it loses the deal?

Might be worth sounding out the Germans about the Eurofighter. Both fighters made the downselect after all.

The only thing the French value is money all said and done. Them having done us a "big favor" by not making noises during the nuke tests aren't exactly worth 16 Billion $. And what of summoning the Indian ambassador over Kandhamal? That arrogance was quickly forgotten even as they were herding the Roma like animals.

If this deal doesnt go through, it might not be such a bad thing to reinvest in our own capabilities and will pay off well over the long term if we can hedge the short term.
French/Euro/Russian/US arrogance, while irritating, is not so much the issue, what is really galling is the IAF's rather poor support of the Tejas. Can you really expect the French or others to lose opportunities to take potshots, when the iaf and local media seem go do their v.best to downplay its capabilities?

Of course, the psus also have themselves to blame , how many deadlines have they missed?, and to make ridiculously tall claims to boot. I rememe KH, with all due respect, recently taking potshots at the Chinese aviation industry and suggesting that we are on par with Europe in this field, what is the need for such tall claims. For any serious enthusiast, it hurts credibility.

Oh agreed its also equally true that the Indian establishment needs to be fixed; but it is also suborned by a lot of these folks who have used India as a gravy train for their products. The manner in which these folks take it for granted that Indian money is theirs for the taking is amazing. Reminds me of the revealing incident from SRVs article about Dassault and LCA, how they, unlike the Germans and Americans gave all BS answers to the Indian team and arrogantly told them, irrespective of what happened, they would be selected for the LCA codevelopment contract as they had New Delhi's support. India went for the US instead. With all the other problems (sanctions etc) downstream. But a big portion of the immediate blame as purely Dassault's behavior.

History seems to be repeating itself.

You have the new Rafale makers playing arrogant hardball over prices, steadily reducing the support for the deal and you have the likes of Arthuro waltzing in, and telling us subpar folk on how we better buy the Rafale or else, and what is it that the IAF truly wants (as versus Indian/Russian stuff which is oh not so good) and we better behave or else.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 02 Jul 2014 19:14

the French have arrogance down to an art form....its as much a part of their culture as machismo is to latin culture.

leave the frogs be Karan...they'll leave.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 19:17

Victor wrote:
SanjayC wrote:MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract

At 80 aircraft the deal starts making less & less sense. Better pour the money into:

1. More Su-30s, Super 30 upgrade & better availability - get cracking on that as the first steps have been taken (ROH/warehouse at HAL) -start building up bases
2. More LCAs & LCA MK2 funding for extra weapons/gold plated EW
3. Support assets - more AWACS & IFR
4. More precision weapons

@ 8Bn - half the cost of the Rafale deal, I bet we can address each of the points 1-4 by getting a few more sq of Sukhois/Tejas in, plus more force multipliers & weaponry.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jul 2014 19:27

BTW, if the French lose this, it would be a long line of similar "success stories" in Algeria, UAE, Morocco, Singapore, South Korea..
In every case similar strands emerge, of taking the opposite side to be desperate and playing over the top hardball..

50 more Su-30 even at $80Mn will cost $4Bn (assuming Super 30 is $80Mn vs Su-30 at $40-60Mn)
40 more Tejas will cost $1.6 Bn (assuming Mk2 is $40Mn vs Mk1s $26)

That's still around $2Bn left to spend on more force multipliers (a couple more Indian AEW&C Embraers), logistics, weaponry.