Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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deejay
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby deejay » 07 Jul 2014 21:26

Karan M wrote:
LCA combat radius is 500km.


Thanks. I was working with the same numbers.

Aditya_V wrote:
Karan M wrote:LCA combat radius is 500km.


I think figure will vary based on airfeild altitude mission profile. LCA taking off from Bareliwith Central 1200L droptank and 6 AAMs will have a much higher combat radius than an LCA taking off from Leh with 5 500Kg Bombs and 2 WVR AAMs


It does not matter since the impact of altitude will be felt by both aircraft and the airfield to be considered is same. So for this hypothetical situation, the assumptions remain same since the whole exercise is to determine how many LCAs and Su 30's will replace a 04 ac Rafale package on a mission where the LCA will use Su 30 to refuel.

P.S.: I got confused by the way your quotes appeared.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Victor » 07 Jul 2014 22:49

Philip wrote:Q.Why did Brazil dump the Rafale and plump for the Gripen?

Because unlike India, they have dangerous enemies like Argentina, Bolivia, Venezuela, Guyana etc.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_28476 » 08 Jul 2014 00:03

Viv S wrote:
Pagot wrote:@Viv S, spectra is far from a simple defensive aid subsystem. It is capable to for example propose rerouting vs popping up missions, jamming a S-300 (as shown during MACE XII), a Captor-M and its data are fused with radar (or other sensors like recce pod, damocles) ones for target designation...


- Rerouting works when there are holes in the enemy air defence. In an airspace, heavy with SAMs and AEW&C units, that's not realistic.
- Pop-up missions are doable. But that puts the aircraft at the mercy of MANPADS and IR based AAA. Also strips the pilot of situational awareness, reduces his weapon range and still leaves the aircraft vulnerable to airborne radars.
- The SPECTRA reportedly spoofed the S-300 with DRFM. That's a very different call against an AESA-based HQ-9 (and newer S-300 variants).
- For jamming on the other hand, you need a dedicated aircraft like the Growler, though the APG-81 is supposedly very potent at the role.
- Its data is fused with the radar yes, but the radar itself is limited by its small antenna. Even the AESA variant's uprated performance is at best... only adequate. 50% range increase over the PESA which has only a 100km tracking range (vs 3 sq.m target).


Because you know the range of PESA vs the size of the target? PUre BS, classified. Btw it has been mentioned many times by CEAM (the unit testing new systems in french AdlA) that AESA range doubled as compared to the PESA one. If you think that a radar capabilities can be measured in number of modules you are utterly wrong.
1.5 more range was the requirement, actually it is 100% gain. Again which RCS? We don't know. We just know that they are very happy with its capabilities to detect low RCS targets.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_28476 » 08 Jul 2014 00:12

The Rafale is in its last leg of production. If the French MoD doesn't get export orders to sustain it, which is primarily an issue of protecting the jobs involved, they'll add in additional orders (current order stands at 26 units for the next five years) get the 180 aircraft under contract delivered and close the production down by decade end.


Again false claims. 5th tranche was anounced in january by defence minister. Same as your claims about MLU, they DO exist and will be implemented. Remember Rafale is a strategic nuclear asset for France and will be kept relevant.

I won't comment fanboyish comments like F-35 is superior in every assets etc.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 08 Jul 2014 01:05

Pagot wrote:
The Rafale is in its last leg of production. If the French MoD doesn't get export orders to sustain it, which is primarily an issue of protecting the jobs involved, they'll add in additional orders (current order stands at 26 units for the next five years) get the 180 aircraft under contract delivered and close the production down by decade end.


Again false claims. 5th tranche was anounced in january by defence minister. Same as your claims about MLU, they DO exist and will be implemented. Remember Rafale is a strategic nuclear asset for France and will be kept relevant.


In all fairness, France is very rich in R&D, but rather poor in funds. The FM, on his recent visit to India, said so in no uncertain terms (posted above).



Anyways, let us talk tranches ......................... the one from Jan, 2014 .........................

Jan 20, 2014 :: France Adjusts Fighter Programs To Meet Funding

The French defense ministry announced contracts on Jan. 10 for €1 billion ($1.4 billion) in planned upgrades to the Dassault Aviation combat jet. Yet budget pressures have forced drastic reductions in the total number of Rafale aircraft and next-generation weapon systems the ministry plans to buy over the next six years, prompting new spending for renovation of Mirage 2000D fighters and further extending the service life of aging Mirage 2000-5s


What is real cool is that France is actually reading and taking advice from BR!!!!! Maintain/upgrade M2Ks!!!!!

Imagine a bidding war between France and India for the M2Ks from UAE. Fun!!

And, then ........................

Despite the fact that financial pressure is reducing the defense ministry's Rafale orders to 26 from 66 through 2019, France is investing in a new F3-R-standard software upgrade that will enable full integration of new weapons and a next-generation laser targeting pod, improvements that will make the aircraft more appealing to export customers.


IIRC France has been investing to make the Rafale more exportable ............................. since 2003/4?


On strategic assets .......................................

Do not think it really matters.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 08 Jul 2014 01:17

Viv S wrote:For the more dangerous tasks you need the F-35 - SEAD, DEAD, ISR, deep strike, etc. And its a superb force multiplier. (For the record, even the PAK FA will be preferable (vs Rafale) if it comes down to it.)


Multiply this, on the other hand, better wait until 2025 :rotfl:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26124894

People in the MoD say they are confident the aircraft will be "combat capable", with a basic range of bombs and missiles, by 2018, although they concede that getting some of the RAF's more advanced missiles to work with the F-35 will not happen before 2022.

However, others in the industry have suggested that 2025 might be a more realistic date for full combat capability, and that funding to "integrate" some of these weapons with the F-35 could come under threat at some future point.


Viv S wrote:The Rafale is too expensive for the former roles and grossly inadequate for the latter set.


On the contrary, it is better equipped to fight over enemy airspace than of the half-baked alternatives being touted.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby brar_w » 08 Jul 2014 01:23

getting some of the RAF's more advanced missiles to work with the F-35 will not happen before 2022


The Program runs on democracy, if the majority of the partner nations had Meteor operational or intended to have Meteor operational its integration would be at Block 3F, just as the Aim-120D. Current integration plans for the Meteor are for Block 4F or 5 but thats due to program democracy and the fact that partners have to pay for this themselves. JSF/NSM integration is for block 4. Brimstone will most likely come along with the Meteor.

However, others in the industry have suggested that 2025 might be a more realistic date for full combat capability, and that funding to "integrate" some of these weapons with the F-35 could come under threat at some future point


Depends upon what an air force defines as FOC and as such there is usually some years worth of gap between IOC and FOC. Having said that IOC for the jet will occur in 2015, 2016 and 2018 with the software modes. Other forces may wish to declare FOC only when a full suite of their own weapons is integrated, those timelines may be different but that is not the JSF's fault but that of the integration of specialized weapons which take a back seat to integration of weapons that would be used by a large majority of F35 customers.

In the future UAI will solve this with Many European companies having committed themselves to this common architecture.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby arthuro » 08 Jul 2014 01:26

Image

Excerpts related to Rafale on Aviation week website:


France has also announced big investments for Rafale. Dassault has already inducted the first of the French Navy Rafale F1-standard aircraft to begin an upgrade to the latest service configuration, F3-04T, which includes the active, electronically scanned array (AESA) version of the RBE2 radar and the DDM-NG missile-warning system. The program goal is to retain all the aircraft in service through rolling upgrades, the company says.

The DDM-NG, part of the Thales/MBDA Spectra defensive avionics suite, comprises two imaging infra-red sensors located on either side of the fighter’s fin-tip pod, each with a hemispherical field of view and jointly providing full spherical coverage other than the area blanked by the fighter’s wing. Its ability to detect and track other targets, such as aircraft, is classified, according to Dassault.

In January, the French defense ministry awarded Dassault a contract for the next major Rafale upgrade, known as F3-R. It includes more powerful processors and upgrades to the Multi-functional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminal datalink and the automatic ground collision avoidance system.

For tactical and strategic reconnaissance missions, F3-R will include in-cockpit replay and analysis of imagery from the Thales Areos long-range oblique photography (Lorop) reconnaissance pod. The Rafale pilot or weapon system operator will be able to review imagery without interrupting the pod’s collection process.

The upgrade will also see a series of improvements to Spectra. Developed by Thales and MBDA, Spectra is a fully automated system that provides electromagnetic detection, laser and missile warning, jamming and four chaff/flare dispensers. French industry sources say that during operations over Libya in 2011, Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan air force, performing “soft kills” on enemy radar systems [already related in one of the lastest issue of FOX3].

Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program at Thales, says the F3-R upgrade will involve a more advanced electromagnetic detection capability based on new digital wide-band-receiver technologies, improving the suite’s spectrum analysis as well as its instantaneous interception capability.


Thales will also update Spectra’s solid-state jamming subsystem, which was one of the first to use electronically steered phased-array antennas. Carrara says for F3R, Spectra will include more powerful antennas, while further increasing the power supply so that more threats can be jammed simultaneously. Like Saab, Thales will use GaN technology because of its power and efficiency.

Since the late 1990s, Spectra’s designers have dropped hints that the system can perform “active cancellation”—receiving a radar signal and mimicking the aircraft’s echo exactly one-half wavelength out of phase so the radar sees nothing.

Carrara again implies that such a capability is in use: “There are other strategies, such as generating signals that will encompass or be higher than the echo from the aircraft, so that the radar threat will receive a signal that will mask the echo from the aircraft,” Carrara says. “Instead of creating a false echo and drawing the radar to the wrong place, the idea is to produce a signal that will mask the echo of the aircraft, so the radar will be unable to detect the aircraft Spectra is protecting.”[...]


That's an interesting insight on the rafale F3R upgrade which will be very close to what India should get if it decide to finalize the deal. Most noticeable elements :

-More powerful processors
-GaN Spectra
-Active cancelation already operational with thre rafale

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 08 Jul 2014 02:16

eklavya wrote:Multiply this, on the other hand, better wait until 2025
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26124894


You clearly haven't understood your own article. The reference is to the UK's aircraft and the requisite Meteor, ASRAAM, Paveway IV, Brimstone/SPEAR-3 & Storm Shadow integration (of which only the AIM-132 & P IV will be achieved by decade end).

For all other customers, the F-35 will have basic combat capability next year and full spectrum capability by 2017 (AMRAAM, Aim-9X, SDB I, JSOW etc).

On the contrary, it is better equipped to fight over enemy airspace than of the half-baked alternatives being touted.


Better than the F-35 and PAK FA? Not likely.

Nearly fifteen years after it entered service, its yet to score its first foreign sale. Europe is now entirely a two horse race between the high-end F-35 and low-end Gripen E. And a loss in India might just kill off its remaining hopes in the GCC.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 08 Jul 2014 02:37

^^^^
When even the Canadians start having second thoughts about the F-35, it really tells you something about what a terrible waste of time and money that programme has become.

And given that the US will not part with the software codes, the F-35 programme essentially ties the user lock, stock and barrel to US foreign policy.

A complete dud if ever there was one.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby NRao » 08 Jul 2014 02:49

eklavya wrote:^^^^
When even the Canadians start having second thoughts about the F-35, it really tells you something about what a terrible waste of time and money that programme has become.

And given that the US will not part with the software codes, the F-35 programme essentially ties the user lock, stock and barrel to US foreign policy.

A complete dud if ever there was one.


Answer in the Turkey thread.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 08 Jul 2014 02:52

Pagot wrote:Because you know the range of PESA vs the size of the target? PUre BS, classified.


I don't. Jean-Michel Guhl supposedly does in his laudatory Serious Squall article.

The present radar air-to-air modes include long-range search; multi target track and engagement; air combat modes; Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR); and look down/shoot down functions. In air-to-air mode, the RBE2 gives a tracking range beyond 60 nautical miles against a 30-square-foot target, with detection ranges up to 75 nautical miles. The radar can track and prioritize up to 40 targets simultaneously and engage up to eight with Mica, and soon Meteor, air-to-air missiles.

Btw it has been mentioned many times by CEAM (the unit testing new systems in french AdlA) that AESA range doubled as compared to the PESA one. If you think that a radar capabilities can be measured in number of modules you are utterly wrong.


Didn't mention modules anywhere, though that's a good rule-of-thumb measure of capability. My reference was to the antenna size nestled in the smallest nose on any fighter in production. An unfortunate consequence of carrier compatibility perhaps.

Pagot wrote:Again false claims. 5th tranche was anounced in january by defence minister. Same as your claims about MLU, they DO exist and will be implemented. Remember Rafale is a strategic nuclear asset for France and will be kept relevant.


Was that before or after the production order cut from 66 to 26 units was announced? And I never said that an MLU for the Rafale was non-existent. It'll most certainly be available to India, though several years after implementation on the French fleet and at a crippling cost, if the Mirage deal was anything to go by.

I won't comment fanboyish comments like F-35 is superior in every assets etc.


Every role not every asset/characteristic. The Rafale is faster and more agile to be sure, but its no substitute for VLO capability. Also, isn't labeling it 'fanboyish', basically a comment? :) Anyway, maybe I'm wrong and the Rafale is going to start eating into the F-35's export market, lets see.
Last edited by Viv S on 08 Jul 2014 04:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 08 Jul 2014 03:08

eklavya wrote:^^^^
When even the Canadians start having second thoughts about the F-35, it really tells you something about what a terrible waste of time and money that programme has become.

How many countries had 'second thoughts' about the Rafale? South Korea, Singapore, Brazil, Switzerland, Morocco, UAE... they're probably having second thoughts in the Indian MoD right now.

And given that the US will not part with the software codes, the F-35 programme essentially ties the user lock, stock and barrel to US foreign policy.

And US foreign policy on China is well known (Pacific pivot). More so than Russia or France.

A complete dud if ever there was one.

A 'dud' with a dozen confirmed customers and another half dozen soon to sign on.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby brar_w » 08 Jul 2014 04:39

A complete dud if ever there was one


Its a dud for those that still deny the holocaust for example. For others that require evidence, its amassed over 100 deliveries already and has added 3 customers to the original development partners signed up to the program. As a program an international FACO production facility is already operational with another one soon to be operational. As things stand the F-35 is being built in two continents with a third continent getting ready to assemble it. Israel has already gotten software codes and the EXPORT version myth keeps getting debunked every few weeks it props up on this website and others. Compared to close to 42 Type A incidents for the F-16 development and test program, the F-35 has had just one and that too once more then 100 F-35's had been delivered to 3 different services in the US, and 2 international customers (well 3 if one counts the delivery to Australia), by the same benchmark the F-22 had a crash in development while the F-35 hasn't despite the F-35 fleet being almost 2/3 the size of the overall F-22 fleet. 2 Gripens crashed during development phase of the program, This is also impressive since the F-35 has a STOVL version that till date has conducted more than 500 Vertical Landings including 2 full deployments on LHD's and at night ops(on LHD's).

F-35 customers - USAF, USMC, USN, RN/RAF, RAAF, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Israel, South Korea, Japan, Netherlands. Add to that the fact that the F-35 is almost certain to be chosen by Singapore at some point, and is a strong contender in Canada (Competition or no competition) and also the fact that once the Jet goes operational with the IDF it would be available for sale to UAE and other ME air forces and what you have is a fairly decent record of sales :-o

If you call this DUD, i would like to know what you consider success.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Philip » 08 Jul 2014 09:26

Impressive the JSF may be on paper,I think it will be some time after 2017 that "full spectrum" capability will be achieved.The USN is only getting its JSF act together in 2019.RN's JSFs will be able to "perform" only after 2020.Pl. read the latest UK news items posted earlier reporting on the QE2 launch.The definitive software level for the first step still hasn't been completed and each level of software must be perfected for capability to be increased step by step.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/riskfactor/aer ... er-program
Software Testing Problems Continue to Plague F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program
By Robert N. Charette
Posted 27 Mar 2014


The U.S. General Accountability Office (GAO) earlier this week released its fifth annual report on the state of the F-35 Lightning II, aka the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), aka the “most costly and ambitious” acquisition program ever. What the GAO found was foretold by a report earlier this year by the Department of Defense’s Director of Operational Test and Evaluation. The upshot: the F-35 operational and support software development continues to be the major obstacle to the program's success.

In addition, the GAO report states that the projected cost of acquiring the planned 2443 F-35 aircraft (which comes in three flavors) threatens to consume some 20- to 25 percent of annual defense program acquisition funds for the next twenty years or so. The GAO doesn’t explicitly say so, but the operations and maintenance costs of the program—currently estimated to be between $800 billion and $1 trillion dollars or more over the next 50 years—will also consume a significant chunk of DoD’s annual weapon-system related O&M budget as well.

The GAO report states that, “Challenges in development and testing of mission systems software continued through 2013, due largely to delays in software delivery, limited capability in the software when delivered, and the need to fix problems and retest multiple software versions.” Further, the GAO notes that the F-35 program continues to “encounter slower than expected progress in developing the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS),” which is the F-35’s advanced integrated maintenance and support system (pdf). In the latter case, Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, the F-35 Program Executive Officer, conceded last month that the ALIS system was “way behind” where it should be and was “in catch-up mode.” This, the GAO indicates, was apparently at least partly because of a lack of testing facilities that remains a problem years after ALIS development began.

The GAO notes that as a result of the on-going software problems with the aircraft's mission and support systems, F-35 program officials and contractors alike believe that software development will continue to be the F-35 program’s “most significant risk area.”

Software-testing related issues involving the development and fielding mission systems were the main thrust of this year’s GAO report. The F-35, you may recall, is delivering its mission capabilities in a series of incremental “software blocks,” designated as Block 1A/B, Block 2A, Block 2B, Block 3i, and Block 3F. Each block builds on the mission capability developed in the preceding block. As described by the report, “Blocks 1 and 2A provide training capabilities and are essentially complete, with some final development and testing still underway. Blocks 2B and 3i provide initial warfighting capabilities and are needed by the Marine Corps and Air Force, respectively, to achieve initial operational capability. Block 3F is expected to provide the full suite of warfighting capabilities, and is the block the Navy expects to have to achieve its initial operational capability.” According to Flightglobal, a software Block 4 is being planned as an eventual mission capability upgrade for which development will begin late this year or more likely early next.

However, the GAO report states that, “Developmental testing of Block 2B software is behind schedule and will likely delay the delivery of expected warfighting capabilities,” required by the Marines for their variant of the F-35 (the F-35B) that is scheduled for delivery by July 2015. As of January of this year, “the program planned to have verified the functionality of 27 percent of the software’s capability on-board the aircraft, but had only been able to verify 13 percent,” says the GAO report. In more than a bit of an understatement, the GAO says that, “This leaves a significant amount of work to be done before October 2014, which is when the program expects to complete developmental flight testing of this software block.”

The GAO notes—and seems to agree with—the Operational Test and Evaluation Director's view that a more realistic estimate for when Block 2B’s software functional verification will be completed is sometime closer to November 2015. The report also notes that such a delay would create a knock-on effect to the subsequent F-35 software blocks as well, increasing the cost of the acquisition, not to mention delaying the planned initial operational capability (IOC) of the aircraft (2016 for the Air Force F-35As, and 2018 for the Navy F-35Cs).

Yet, despite everything it saw, the GAO indicates that the F-35 program office and contractors, and especially the Marines, seem to be all whistling along to Bobby McFerrin’s song, “Don’t Worry, Be Happy.” The GAO states that, “Program and contractor officials have stated that while they recognize that the program faces software risks, they still expect to deliver all of the planned F-35 software capabilities to the military services as currently scheduled.” Why do they think so? Why, they are now going to introduce new approaches to gain “testing efficiency.” The plan: mainly by using “test results from one F-35 variant to close out test points for the other two variants in instances in which the variants have common functions.” However, Bloomberg News quoted a recent RAND assessment of the F-35 program as stating that, “As of this writing, it is not clear how common the mission systems, avionics, software and engine will be among the three service variants,” so how much efficiency will in reality be gained remains to be seen.

In fact, in testimony before Congress yesterday, Lt. Gen Bogdan was reported by Reuters as saying he was “pretty confident” that Block 2B software would be delivered within 30 days of its current target date to allow the Marines to get to initial operational capability by July next year, as the software is “80 percent complete.” However, Bogdan also indicated that he was not as confident that even ten Marine F-35Bs would be IOC ready given that most of the 40-plus Marine F-35Bs will require some 96 engineering modifications by then.

Lt. Gen. Bogdan also disclosed at the hearing that “Block 3F [software] is dependent upon the timely release of Block 2B and 3I, and at present, 3F is tracking approximately four to six months late without taking steps to mitigate that delay.”

One does hope the program’s Block 2B software testing efficiency strategy is successful, since the GAO indicates the F-35 is scheduled to undergo operational testing in June of next year, “to determine that the aircraft variants can effectively perform their intended missions in a realistic threat environment.” If the new testing strategy is not successful, the GAO's view is that the cost of the F-35 acquisition and its future sustainment costs will just keep on escalating.

In response to the GAO report, the F-35 program office has agreed to deliver to Congress an assessment of the “risks of delivering required capabilities within the stated initial operational capability windows for each military service.” The GAO wants that assessment completed and the risks reported by July 2015, but the program hasn’t committed itself to any specific timetable to deliver a detailed assessment. As a Marine Corps Times article seems to suggest, future disclosures on the part of the program office concerning the risks of possible program schedule slips or cost increases will more than likely happen only in piecemeal fashion and by accident.

Of course, even if the F-35 Block 2B software is late—or one or more of the other software blocks are delayed for that matter—it really presages very little change in the general future direction of the program. Why? Well, in a CBS News 60 Minutes interview in February, Lt. Gen. Bogdan was asked, “Has the F-35 program passed the point of no return?” to which he replied, “I don't see any scenario where we're walking back away from this program.”

The GAO is officially scheduled to conduct one more annual review of the F-35 acquisition. The only purpose of it that I can see is merely to warn current and future U.S. taxpayers, many who are not yet born, how much more money they will have to shell out for the next 50 years or more.

Photo: U.S. Department of Defense


As said before,US allies have little choice.They will be armtwisted to buy the aircraft if they want to "keep up with the Joneses".But the orders have been smaller,why production lines for SHs and F-16s are being kept open a little longer.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 08 Jul 2014 10:35

Philip wrote:Impressive the JSF may be on paper,I think it will be some time after 2017 that "full spectrum" capability will be achieved.


Reply on JSF thread.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Austin » 08 Jul 2014 11:38

arthuro wrote:Carrara again implies that such a capability is in use: “There are other strategies, such as generating signals that will encompass or be higher than the echo from the aircraft, so that the radar threat will receive a signal that will mask the echo from the aircraft,” Carrara says. “Instead of creating a false echo and drawing the radar to the wrong place, the idea is to produce a signal that will mask the echo of the aircraft, so the radar will be unable to detect the aircraft Spectra is protecting.”[...]


Think Active Cancellation works with limited spectrum/band/frequencies ....it would be impossible to mask an aircraft from wide band of radars with multiple frequency operating in battlefield.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_28640 » 08 Jul 2014 11:49

^^ And is near useless against frequency hopping AESA radars too as the processing lag during the frequency shift will cause it to wait for the signal to get into the correct phase before sending..
Even worse against LPI radars..

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_28476 » 08 Jul 2014 13:44

Didn't mention modules anywhere, though that's a good rule-of-thumb measure of capability. My reference was to the antenna size nestled in the smallest nose on any fighter in production. An unfortunate consequence of carrier compatibility perhaps.


Right, but size of the anteanna for an AESA radar = number of modules. But the gain of the antenna is not directly dependant on size like on a michanical antenna. Of course it is easier to do with more modules, but many more considerations in the game modules themselves, cooling system (very important), computing power, algorythms used etc.

Anyways, let us talk tranches ......................... the one from Jan, 2014 .........................


I was there... http://www.portail-aviation.com/2014/01 ... c-des.html

So i can assume he announced a fifth production tranche.

What is real cool is that France is actually reading and taking advice from BR!!!!! Maintain/upgrade M2Ks!!!!!

Imagine a bidding war between France and India for the M2Ks from UAE. Fun!!


1 squadron of mirage 2000-5F (already modernized, with MDPU etc.). Mainly a stamp to differ their retirement. About Mirage 2000 D they do the job nicely. Yes we have money issues, but those will have to be replaced. The later being the best so as to wait for further Rafale standard...

On strategic assets .......................................

Do not think it really matters.


It doese, and it is critical for France. No use having ASMP/A if vector isn't credible.

Its ability to detect and track other targets, such as aircraft, is classified, according to Dassault.
Not so classified for MBDA that admitted so.

About MLU, an top Dassault executive told me a year ago that it would be stupid not to do it in coordination with india...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 08 Jul 2014 15:11

Pagot wrote:Right, but size of the anteanna for an AESA radar = number of modules. But the gain of the antenna is not directly dependant on size like on a michanical antenna. Of course it is easier to do with more modules, but many more considerations in the game modules themselves, cooling system (very important), computing power, algorythms used etc.


If the RBE-2AA is technologically far superior to its rivals (both in terms of T/R gain and architecture) we may expect that to compensate for the small antenna size. However, I haven't yet seen any evidence to suggest that that's the case.

Anyways, let us talk tranches ......................... the one from Jan, 2014 .........................


I was there... http://www.portail-aviation.com/2014/01 ... c-des.html

So i can assume he announced a fifth production tranche.


According to the minister, the French state will order 26 aircraft and the remaining 30 Rafales (should be 40 though) will be exported. My original contention was that the fifth tranche will likely not happen in the event that the exports don't pan out and the state is forced to buy the earmarked Rafales.

It doese, and it is critical for France. No use having ASMP/A if vector isn't credible.


The M45/M51 is a very effective deterrent even by itself. With regard to the ASMP-A, at 500 km, its range is firmly in the stand-off category. Should be sufficient for tactical employment. Plus that'll eventually be joined by a UCAV option. Sounds adequate, especially in light of the fact that the threat to France is no graver than to UK (with an active disarmament public campaign proceeding). Its on apparently pretty good terms with the other nuclear power in Europe.

About MLU, an top Dassault executive told me a year ago that it would be stupid not to do it in coordination with india...


That's assuming that the two coincide. The French fleet will be about a decade older on average than the Indian fleet. So you'd need two sets of MLUs, or a delayed single MLU, or have an older French MLU passed on to India, with the third case most likely.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_28476 » 09 Jul 2014 02:09

MLU will coincide. Around 2025. AFAIK. Some details are already half public : reshaped front face, conformal radar arrays...
It would be stupid both for Rafale consortium and HAL not to do a common updtae.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 09 Jul 2014 03:33

brar_w wrote:Its a dud for those that still deny the holocaust for example.


John McCain has described the F-35 programme as a "debacle" (just yesterday), as a "national scandal", as a "tragedy" and as a "disgrace".

Does John McCain still deny the holocaust?

Your answer is eagerly awaited

:rotfl:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 09 Jul 2014 03:37

Viv S wrote:And US foreign policy on China is well known (Pacific pivot).


US foreign policy on Pakistan is also well known. Pakistan has been officially designated a "major ally" by the US government.

:lol:

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby TSJones » 09 Jul 2014 03:49

eklavya wrote:
brar_w wrote:Its a dud for those that still deny the holocaust for example.


John McCain has described the F-35 programme as a "debacle" (just yesterday), as a "national scandal", as a "tragedy" and as a "disgrace".

Does John McCain still deny the holocaust?

Your answer is eagerly awaited

:rotfl:


MaCain says a lot of things. In this instance he doesn't know what he is talking about. Like a lot of politicians he loves to shoot his mouth off.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 09 Jul 2014 03:56

Do a lot of USAF Colonels also love to shoot their mouths off? For example, this fellow here:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/digi ... trucha.pdf

This colonel-saab quotes some honcho in the pentagon who calls the programme "acquisition malpractice". The colonel himself thinks the F-35 is unsuited for taking on China's air defences.

What do I know. Maybe the USAF is full of colonel-saab's with a troubled relationship with the holocaust.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby TSJones » 09 Jul 2014 03:56

eklavya wrote:
Viv S wrote:And US foreign policy on China is well known (Pacific pivot).


US foreign policy on Pakistan is also well known. Pakistan has been officially designated a "major ally" by the US government.

:lol:


This about a specious retort that I have seen concerning the J-35. Pakistan is not getting the J-35. If you think otherwise then you are demonstrating that you really know nothing about the US. India is not getting the J-35 either at least not in the near future. If you want to under estimate the J-35 then that is your business but trying to connect the J-35 and Pakistan is empty headed nonsense meant for nothing but trolling.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby TSJones » 09 Jul 2014 03:58

eklavya wrote:Do a lot of USAF Colonels also love to shoot their mouths off? For example, this fellow here:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/digi ... trucha.pdf

This colonel-saab quotes some honcho in the pentagon who calls the programme "acquisition malpractice". The colonel himself thinks the F-35 is unsuited for taking on China's air defences.

What do I know. Maybe the USAF is full of colonel-saab's with a troubled relationship with the holocaust.


You are correct about that, what do you know?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby brar_w » 09 Jul 2014 03:58

John McCain has described the F-35 programme as a "debacle" (just yesterday), as a "national scandal", as a "tragedy" and as a "disgrace"


I can spend 5 minutes and come up with things about McCain that show his hypocracy on defense matters. But you can find out those things on your own so why bother.

Secondly, the comments made during a Sub committee hearing are well, just that. Comments. Just a few weeks ago Mccain praised the F-35 a technical capabilities (“The aircraft itself is turning into a pretty good weapon system" and " I never questioned whether it would be a good weapon"). He is a person who has tastes that evolve with his own pork barrel interests as is evident through his dealings with Boeing and the F-35 program in general. He has flipped flopped throughout his career on defense matters and has claimed something that is totally opposite of his voting habits. I can get into these if you so wish, but why bother talking about a scum politician anyhow.

Do a lot of USAF Colonels also love to shoot their mouths off? For example, this fellow here:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/digi ... trucha.pdf


This forum has a Search feature. Its quite handy, this article has been discussed earlier. The USAF officers can talk freely and publish their thesis on the listed approved publications in the free press. This article and the views of an officer are just that. Its an open system. You can take this view, and put it up against dozens of views of actual pilots, officers, senior commanders both in the US services and those of partner nations and come to a conclusion. If you keep on looking at one article that has clear and concise rebuttals littered around the internet its your decision.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 09 Jul 2014 04:11

TSJones wrote:This about a specious retort that I have seen concerning the J-35. Pakistan is not getting the J-35. If you think otherwise then you are demonstrating that you really know nothing about the US. India is not getting the J-35 either at least not in the near future. If you want to under estimate the J-35 then that is your business but trying to connect the J-35 and Pakistan is empty headed nonsense meant for nothing but trolling.


But Mr. Jones, your government has designated Pakistan a "major ally" and handed over to the PAF quite literally hundreds of highly-sophisticated AMRAAM missiles whose sole purpose is to take Indian lives, lives of IAF pilots. Surely no one could force the mighty US to take such a step against its own sovereign wish?

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby eklavya » 09 Jul 2014 04:18

brar_w wrote:why bother talking about a scum politician anyhow.


Oh i see, anyone who thinks poorly of the F-35 programme is either a "holocaust denier" or "scum". Got it.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby brar_w » 09 Jul 2014 04:22

Oh i see, anyone who thinks poorly of the F-35 programme is either a "holocaust denier" or "scum". Got it


So McCain is a saint? His views on the F-35 have nothing to do with it anyway. In May he was saying that the F-35 is turning out into a pretty good weapon system. When the Concurrency price projections were skyrocketing he was blasting the concurrency decision like he is a crusader for responsible fiscal spending, yet he has through his entire career voted for programs that heavily use the concurrency model. From the F-18 program to the F-22 and even the B-2 program. Basically every major Weapons program Mccain voted for or was in favor of took the concurrency approach to development. Interestingly when the O&S cost estimates dropped by 400+ Billion (35%) he said nothing, did not seek the heads of the GAO or the accountants that do these numbers, yet when they were rising he was calling for heads to roll. Same goes for Concurrency estimates. Now that they have dropped to a mere 0.4% of the acquisition cost, he is silent and not doing anything about bringing those that do these estimates to the same level of accountability he wished to hold the program office. He is a scum for various reasons that have nothing to do with the F-35 or defense. His presidential campaign against Obama brought out a lot of the skeletons and the sheer ignorance when he forgot how many homes he owned.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Karan M » 09 Jul 2014 05:04

Pointing out issues with the JSF = holocaust denial?

This as blatant an application of Godwins law as I have ever seen.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby brar_w » 09 Jul 2014 05:12

Pointing out issues with the JSF = holocaust denial?


Did I say that ? If you go back and read the original post, you will find that I was referring to a comment that called the JSF a Dud, despite the overwhelming support it has from air forces around the world. If you wish to take that out of context and stretch it to apply to other things such as POINTING OUT issues = HOLOCAUST DENIAL then you can very well continue to do so :) but that does not change the context in which i used the phrase.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby TSJones » 09 Jul 2014 06:18

eklavya wrote:
TSJones wrote:This about a specious retort that I have seen concerning the J-35. Pakistan is not getting the J-35. If you think otherwise then you are demonstrating that you really know nothing about the US. India is not getting the J-35 either at least not in the near future. If you want to under estimate the J-35 then that is your business but trying to connect the J-35 and Pakistan is empty headed nonsense meant for nothing but trolling.


But Mr. Jones, your government has designated Pakistan a "major ally" and handed over to the PAF quite literally hundreds of highly-sophisticated AMRAAM missiles whose sole purpose is to take Indian lives, lives of IAF pilots. Surely no one could force the mighty US to take such a step against its own sovereign wish?


That is nothing but straw man fallacy and you know it. It has nothing to do with Pakistan getting an the f-35 which they never will.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 09 Jul 2014 07:28

Pagot wrote:MLU will coincide. Around 2025. AFAIK. Some details are already half public : reshaped front face, conformal radar arrays...
It would be stupid both for Rafale consortium and HAL not to do a common updtae.


In 2025 the Indian Rafale fleet will be brand new and still in production at HAL. An MLU at that stage wouldn't be feasible. In contrast, the French fleet would be more than 15 years old on average, so an MLU in its case, makes sense. An Indian MLU would probably take place around 2035, for which it would need to sponsor new development or accept older MLU kits.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Viv S » 09 Jul 2014 07:33

eklavya wrote:US foreign policy on Pakistan is also well known. Pakistan has been officially designated a "major ally" by the US government.


Without going into the reality of that 'alliance', our problem is the daunting threat from China. Pakistan on the other hand, the IAF can handle even without the MMRCA or FGFA.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_28476 » 09 Jul 2014 14:13

Viv S wrote:
Pagot wrote:MLU will coincide. Around 2025. AFAIK. Some details are already half public : reshaped front face, conformal radar arrays...
It would be stupid both for Rafale consortium and HAL not to do a common updtae.


In 2025 the Indian Rafale fleet will be brand new and still in production at HAL. An MLU at that stage wouldn't be feasible. In contrast, the French fleet would be more than 15 years old on average, so an MLU in its case, makes sense. An Indian MLU would probably take place around 2035, for which it would need to sponsor new development or accept older MLU kits.


Not really. If you follow th ehistory of the program the plane evolves incrementally (blocks 1, 2, 3,, peresently 3.3', soone 3.4 and 3R in 2018). µThe same will happen after MLU. So whatever is the date of MLU (saying 2025 i was optimistic maybe), India will get MLU + future upgrades for its own MLU.
Following your reasoning, you cant say that India will finance french MLU but get its own obsolete MLU ten years later...

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby member_23694 » 09 Jul 2014 15:08

despite the overwhelming support it has from air forces around the world

Bottomline : when US makes a plane good or bad, it has a readily available market in terms of its allies for many many reasons.
So words like overwhelming support etc are exaggeration and it would be better to objectively stick only w.r.t the planes merits vis-a-vis any other options.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby brar_w » 09 Jul 2014 16:32

Bottomline : when US makes a plane good or bad, it has a readily available market in terms of its allies for many many reasons.
So words like overwhelming support etc are exaggeration and it would be better to objectively stick only w.r.t the planes merits vis-a-vis any other options


Each on of those allies have other US planes to choose from if that is the only reason they are buying. At least 3 other fighters are available for sale.

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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Postby Yashu » 09 Jul 2014 18:40

brar_w wrote:
Bottomline : when US makes a plane good or bad, it has a readily available market in terms of its allies for many many reasons.
So words like overwhelming support etc are exaggeration and it would be better to objectively stick only w.r.t the planes merits vis-a-vis any other options


Each on of those allies have other US planes to choose from if that is the only reason they are buying. At least 3 other fighters are available for sale.


None of these other choices provide any advantage against SU 30 family, Raffale or Euro fighter
So really no other choice


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