Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 22 Jul 2014 09:18

Leo.Davidson wrote:
deejay wrote:Or... Scrap the the Rafale and go for a twin engine LCA MkIII or MCA with only engines imported till we get the Kaveri online.

I am serious. The LCA MkII with increased dimensions and thrust is pretty close to MMRCA standards. Add 01 engine, increase some body size and we can have ready a non stealthy MCA which is Indian. This will be technically more challenging than how I make it sound.

The time lines will get extended of course.


GOD protect us from these people... The LCA design is already 20 yrs old and still not operational. It was designed to replace the Mig-21 and might just meet that target in a couple of decades. And these fools want us to surrender our freedom for the cause of indigenisation. There is no short or long term gain here, the LCA is bound to fail. Weaponizing the Hawk might work better.

We need the Rafale. the TOT is essential for enhancing our fleet of aircraft. We know that the Russian do not have the technology, they are a decade behind the west as far as digital/microprocessor/software technology/... technology is concerned. We should not be trying to catch up with them, we need to get past them.
[quote="Leo.Davidson"]

Hmmm... Yes you need your God. You may disagree with what I say but "these people" that you want God to save you from only suggested an argument counter to your views. And you need God to save you from an argument? LCA=autorickshaw? So, these profound statements have a great understanding of capabilities of the LCA and the autorickshaw?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 22 Jul 2014 09:53


merlin
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby merlin » 22 Jul 2014 10:16

shiv wrote:http://www.behindtheblueline.ca/blog/blueline/wp-content/uploads/troll.jpg


There is a reason for the Foe feature which causes posts from trolls to disappear and not be seen. Very useful.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_22539 » 22 Jul 2014 10:19

Leo.Davidson wrote:Pumping all of the money on the LCA is baffling. I've always compared the LCA to an auto-rickshaw; useful, (the auto-rickshaw being) nifty, economical and you name it. But neither are a hero nor the solution. This LCA plane will not save our skin in war; we'll lose the war because of it. We need a tank, a truck, an SUV, a roadster, ....; we shouldn't be racing with an auto-rickshaw.

Note: Pun intended...


This guy doesn't even have the capability to count it seems.

Dassault Rafale:
---------------
First flight 4 July 1986
Introduction 18 May 2001

Program cost €45.9 billion (FY2013) (US$ 62.7 billion)



HAL Tejas:
----------

First flight 4 January 2001
Introduction 20 December 2013

Program cost US$1.2 billion


These are the two planes this guy is comparing. From first flight to introduction the Rafale took LONGER than the Tejas. Also, the program costs are beyond comparison (at least 50 times more). All this when the experience that Dassault has designing and manufacturing aircraft is light years ahead than that of ADA and HAL. Yet this individual has the gall engage in vitriolic verbal diarrhea.

Then again, all this is pointless, because TROLLS don't care about facts anyway.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Amitabh » 22 Jul 2014 10:33

Philip wrote:Here is another more recent report about downsizing of the deal.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/10754/ ... _Contract_
Will Cost Escalation Down-Size Rafale Jet Contract?
Source : Defenseworld.net News Analysis ~ Dated : Friday, July 4, 2014


India many consider downsizing the Rafale fighter order from 126 to 80 following concerns over cost escalation, Indian media reports.



Doesn't sound right - a reduced order, including three war wastage reserve aircraft per squadron, would amount to 84, not 80.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_23694 » 22 Jul 2014 13:57

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/07/ ... offer.html

Dassault's Rafale Tech Transfer Offer Compliant: Indian MoD

so it implies
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=30522

108 will be manufactured under Transfer of Technology. The vendor finally selected would also be required to undertake 50% offset obligations in India. The ToT and offset contracts would provide a great technological and economic boost to the indigenous defence industries which would include Defence Public Sector Undertakings, Raksha Udyog Ratnas and other eligible private sector industries. Foreign vendors would be provided great flexibility in effecting tie up with Indian partners for this purpose.


So of the $20 billion , $10 billion remains within the country plus other benefits.
Optimism for Tejas Mk.2 is going down and seems to getting more delayed.
Sincere request : could any one please share info. for the delays for MK.1 and MK.2. I have been asking this query for long but no response :( Delays in FOC etc will have further cascading effect on the future product. Further though we can say that IAF change the goal post with MK.2 but what about the Navy. They were from start wanting for MK.2 , why the delay there ?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby srai » 23 Jul 2014 02:18

$20 billion - initial 126 Rafales w/ some license production and some TOT
MLU (60%-80% of value going by Mirage-2000 UPG) - $12-$16 billion dollars

Total cost of Rafale: $36 billion (initial purchase + MLU) plus additional costs associated with lifecycle/operating costs


Aircraft Update Programmes. The Economical Alternative
...
Paper #5 by Alain Picard and Laurent Madon (Dassault Aviation) presented the MLU program for the Mirage 2000. The aircraft airframe life is estimated to last through 2020, thus an avionics upgrade offered a cost effective modernization plan. The MLU program will comply with the following criteria:

I. Replace current sensors with state-of-the-art modern sensors with up to date operational performance

2. Replace the current WNDS core system with an open system based on modular avionics architecture allowing, in particular, to separate application software and hardware.

3. Replace the current cockpit with a modern glass cockpit taking benefit of the numerous advantages of the man-machine interface fitted on the Mirage 2000-5.

The target of this mid-life update is to obtain a more modem Mirage 2000 at 80 percent of the cost of a Mirage 2000-5.
...

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2014 03:35

$20 billion - initial 126 Rafales w/ some license production and some TOT
MLU (60%-80% of value going by Mirage-2000 UPG) - $12-$16 billion dollars

Total cost of Rafale: $36 billion (initial purchase + MLU) plus additional costs associated with lifecycle/operating costs


No use buying just a platform. Add 50% for bums, etc.

$45-50 billion, with utmost ease.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby RoyG » 23 Jul 2014 04:36

This deal is going to die. It doesn't seem like we have the finances for it.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2014 06:00

Rafale data point/s, lost and recovered:

Aug, 2013 :: France To Cut Rafale Order; Betting on Exports

Not that old, in fact rather recent.

France will about halve its purchases of Dassault Rafale fighter jet planes over the next six years, under defense estimates Friday, and is counting on at last clinching the first sales abroad to keep production lines going.


So, a reduction by 50% over next 6 years.

But the government, which is struggling to meet commitments to the European Union and to retain investor confidence by getting its public deficit under control, is crimping public expenditures, including defense spending.

Under the draft defense estimates put before the cabinet Friday, the left-wing government will acquire only 26 of the planes during the next six years.


So, 26 - non strategic fighter - in 6 years. That is not even 5 per year, for the next 6 years.

Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said June 11 that from 2016, Dassault Aviation would have to count on exports to underpin production of the plane, which is able to fulfil several types of missions.


On Friday, the minister said on Europe 1 radio: “There are countries which today are really interested in buying the Rafale; I am thinking particularly of India, Qatar, of other countries, and I am very confident of the chances of exporting the Rafale in coming months.”



Assumptions:

France was in exclusive negotiations to sell 126 Rafale planes to India, “and I have high hopes that this will be successful,” he said.

Sources close to the minister said the estimates were based in part on a hypothesis that at least one country among other potential buyers would place an order before the end of 2019.

These countries are Malaysia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and Brazil.


So, in their calculus, India is a given, then in addition they need one among the above to make the whole thing work.

I do not know the numbers associated with each of these other nations, but 26 (in 6 years) for France, 18 (in say next 3 years for India) and whatever numbers for the remaining country/ies - assume the largest of them all.

An adviser to the minister said the government was not changing its overall order for 180 Rafale planes, of which a total of 120 will have been delivered within the next few months, and it could place another set of orders.

During the period covered by the estimates, Dassault would receive hundreds of millions of euros to design a pilotless combat drone by 2030 in cooperation with British aerospace group BAE Systems, and also to develop the Rafale to meet new standards, under a program called F3-R.


So, Rafale still needs funds to develop the F3-R for France.


Gist:

* They are running out of funds, bad enough to reduce numbers from 52 to 26 in the next 6 years. So, will produce 26 in next 6 years
* Counting on exports, with India as a given and one more nation

So, if all this goes through, then:

* Still plan on 180 planes for FAF (restore the 26 they decided to cut), and

That to me reads that India will at least partially fund the 26.

What-if:

* no other nation orders the Rafale?

Comments?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Texafr » 23 Jul 2014 18:32

Some people in this forum always seem more interested in speculation and FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) about MMRCA and Dassault Rafale than in facts. So, I will just say that the development of standard F3-R is already funded and launched :

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... lectronics

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 23 Jul 2014 20:25

Regarding funding of MMRCA - wasn't it stated that the fund would be a separate amount slated for the MMRCA and not something that is simply going to be postponed forever or taken out of that year's budget? Or was that BRF speculation or "informed opinion" of a BRFite

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2014 20:30

Texafr wrote:Some people in this forum always seem more interested in speculation and FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) about MMRCA and Dassault Rafale than in facts. So, I will just say that the development of standard F3-R is already funded and launched :

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... lectronics


Thanks for that link (guess I need to refine my searches in google).

Next: I am not sure if I have company on this matter, so I doubt that there are "people" on this site ............ just me that has doubts.

Also: It is not based on speculation (as far as I can see).

So, on to your own link:

Jan 10, 2014 :: France To Upgrade Rafale Arms, Electronics

France has signed a development and integration contract worth around €1 billion (US $1.4 billion) to upgrade the Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter with arms and systems, including a long-range missile, and make improvements on a targeting pod and active electronic radar, the procurement office said in a Jan. 10 statement.


So far so good. $1.4 billion is a healthy investment.

(Side: Perhaps we need more details, but that list is hardly something to talk about. More precisely, from an Indian point of view, spending $20 billion on this plane for now and expecting such upgrades is not worth it. Armament is extra - some $10 billion extra.)

OK, so on to the next phase of the discussion:

The deal, agreed by the Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA) Dec. 30, will raise the Rafale to a new F3-R standard, support jobs and is intended to boost the fighter’s export prospects.

“This is a very clear signal of our commitment to invest in the Rafale — certainly the fighter industry is a strategic sector — and to maintain its position at the highest world level,” Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said on a visit to the Rafale plant at Mérignac, southwest France.


Eh?

"fighter industry is a strategic sector" - totally agree. And, it needs to be shored up - no two ways about that.

Also, "support jobs" - agreed. France (every nation) has to do that - to the extent possible.

But "is intended to boost the fighter's export prospects" - is where I get hung up.

You see a nation investing in such fields has two categories: national and export, export being the watered down version of the national. This is not a knock on France or any other nation, but that is how it is. *Then*, it would be rather stupid of such nations not to make enough profits to support their own needs - or, in other words, for work that the nation would anyhow pay for ("strategic"), if and when possible, nations would love to have other nations pay for it.

Britain did that for ages when it ruled India (again, a data point, not a knock or a complain).

France will do that with the Rafael sale. Again, it is business.

*However*, from an Indian point of view, *if* there are options, India needs to protect herself. Especially now.

Continuing on .........................

It is also to have a guarantee to have over the long term a line of products which meet the demands of the export market,” he said.


Wonder who that "export market" is. No brownie points for guessing that one.

Specialist publication Air & Cosmos reported the contract with prime contractor Dassault was worth €810 million.

The development program is a plan to prepare the Rafale for the environment in 2018, the DGA said.


Another gem.

So, $1.4 billion only till 2018? Would that mean another upgrade is planned for 2025/30/35/40/45? (I can hear that point of sale machine going wild out there.)

The program will allow the upgraded Rafale to be armed with the MBDA Meteor, a radar-guided ramjet air-to-air missile. MBDA expects to receive €50 million, an industry executive said.

Thales signed a separate development contract worth €119 million for a new-generation laser-designated targeting pod, with production due in 2018. The pod will be available for Rafale and Mirage fighters, Thales said.

The electronics company will upgrade datalinks, the active electronically scanned array RBE2 radar and the Spectra electronic warfare system. MBDA is a partner on Spectra, providing an infrared function, while Thales supplies detection and radio jamming.

Thales receives about 25 percent of the value of the fighter program.

A laser version of the air-to-ground Sagem armement air-sol modulaire powered smart bomb will be integrated on the Rafale.

The French forces requested the smart bomb as it meets the rules of engagement requiring a man in the loop, an industry executive said


Music to anyone who is selling the Rafale.

Upgrades, upgrades, upgrades, ........................... that is all there is. All for the "export market".



Speculation? Perhaps. I cannot control that thinking.

But, like always, I have my data points.

FUD? Up to you. I sleep well.


Comments are always welcome.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_28476 » 23 Jul 2014 21:00

I have no clue about Tejas range, but here is an illustration by defesanet of Rafale range in air to ground config
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iqkar66xwfggy ... e_null.jpg
Image

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 23 Jul 2014 21:19

Pagot,

Hope you had a great vacation.

The issue is not about the Rafale (as I see it) - it is a great plane. French are great at everything - techs, support, products, etc. So, none of those things are issues.

It is the cost. Life cycle should be north of $40 billion

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_28476 » 24 Jul 2014 15:33

hello, yes vacations were nice

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bpm6xyucwlsxg ... .27.41.jpg

There is nothing i thought as an issue, i just tried to give some info ;)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 24 Jul 2014 16:39

NRao wrote:
It is the cost. Life cycle should be north of $40 billion


Let's say if Rafales get used upto 2060, like mig-21s from '64 to 2024 = 60 years.

So 40 billion dollars for 40 years = 2020 to 2060 isn't that expensive for us, as US has already started to worry about Bharat taking them over by 2045 surely, we mus'have that much money. Plus the positive about high uptime and not to mention huge savings on fuel bill due to its fuel sipping engines.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 24 Jul 2014 21:34

Karan M wrote:you wish.


Exactly. And this means taking their word for it. :)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 25 Jul 2014 00:26

Man, this is getting to be some game to play.

From the July 21, 2014 AWST, Page 29, "Stealth by Routine?", an article on Taranis (UK):

An Anglo-French Taranis or Nueron derivative could replace the eurofighter Typhoon and its equivalents in the 2030s


That is pretty much what I said about the Rafale too, just did not see a UAV replacing it


Pagot wrote:hello, yes vacations were nice

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bpm6xyucwlsxg ... .27.41.jpg

There is nothing i thought as an issue, i just tried to give some info ;)


I think we need to start talking about French pastries.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby malushahi » 25 Jul 2014 05:32

Pagot wrote:hello, yes vacations were nice

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bpm6xyucwlsxg ... .27.41.jpg

There is nothing i thought as an issue, i just tried to give some info ;)



dhauladhars?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 25 Jul 2014 05:56

Karnad fires a salvo of missile sat the Raffy. "More grist for the mill".

Why Rafale is a Big Mistake
By Bharat Karnad

Published: 25th July 2014
http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns ... 346825.ece
Why would India buy the Rafale combat aircraft rejected by every other interested country—Brazil, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, South Korea, Singapore, and even the cash-rich but not particularly discriminating Saudi Arabia and Morocco?

The French foreign minister Laurent Fabius’s one-point agenda when he visited New Delhi was to seal the deal for Rafale, a warplane apparently fitting IAF’s idea of a Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in the service’s unique typology, which includes “light” and “heavy” fighter planes as well, used by no other air force in the world. Alas, the first whiff of corruption led the previous defence minister, A K Antony, to seize up and shut shop, stranding the deal at the price negotiation committee stage. It is this stoppage Fabius sought to unclog.

France’s desperation is understandable. Absent the India deal, the Rafale production line will close down, the future of its aerospace sector will dim, and the entire edifice of French industrial R&D sector based on small and medium-sized firms—a version of the enormously successful German “Mittelstand” model—engaged in producing cutting-edge technologies could unravel, and grease France’s slide to second-rate technology power-status.

More immediately, it will lead to a marked increase in the unit cost of the aircraft—reportedly of as much as $5-$10 million dollars to the French Air Force, compelling it to limit the number it inducts. With no international customers and France itself unable to afford the pricey Rafale, the French military aviation industry will be at a crossroads. So, for Paris a lot is at stake and in India the French have found an easy mark, a country willing to pay excessively for an aircraft the IAF can well do without.

Consider the monies at stake. Let’s take the example of Brazil, our BRICS partner. For 36 Rafales the acquisition cost, according to Brazilian media, was $8.2 billion plus an additional $4 billion for short-period maintenance contracts, amounting to nearly $340 million per aircraft in this package and roughly $209 million as the price tag for a single Rafale without maintenance support. Brazil insisted on transfer of technology (ToT) and was told it had to pay a whole lot extra for it, as also for the weapons for its Rafales. But the Brazilian air force had doubts about the quality of the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar enabling the aircraft to switch quickly from air-to-air to air-to-ground mode in flight, and about the helmet-mounted heads-up-display. Too high a price and too many problems convinced the government of president Dilma Rousseff that the Rafale was not worth the trouble or the money and junked the deal, opting for the Swedish Gripen NG instead.

During the Congress party’s rule the Indian government did not blink at the prospective bill for the Rafale, which more than doubled from $10 billion in 2009 to some $22 billion today, and which figure realistically will exceed $30 billion, or $238 million per aircraft, at a minimum. But India, unbeknownst to most of us, is apparently a terribly rich country, with money to burn! Meanwhile, the United Kingdom, an apparently poorer state or at least one more careful with its money, is blanching at the $190 million price tag for each of the 60 Lockheed F-35Bs (vertical take-off, technologically more complex, variant of the air force model)—a full generation ahead of the Rafale—ordered for the first of the Royal Navy’s Queen Elizabeth-class 65,000-tonne aircraft carriers.

The prohibitive cost of the French aircraft supposedly made finance-cum-defence minister Arun Jaitley apprehensive. He did the right thing, as is rumoured, of revising the order downwards from 126 aircraft to 80 or so Rafales. The IAF headquarters pre-emptively acquiesced in the decision to save the deal. However, if this change was affected in the hope of proportionately reducing the cost, it will be belied. Because in contracts involving high-value combat aircraft, the size of the order does not much affect the unit price, the cost of spares and service support, and of ToT! This is evident from the rough estimates of the per aircraft cost to Brazil of $209 million for 36 Rafales compared with the $238 million for 126 of the same aircraft to India!

Because New Delhi has been inclined to make India a military “great power” on the basis of imported armaments—a policy that’s a boon to supplier states as it generates employment and new technologies in these countries, and sustains their defence industries, a confident French official told me with respect to another deal that “India will pay the price”. Considering the various negatives of the proposed deal and the long-term national interest Jaitley would do well to nix the Rafale transaction altogether.

The bureaucratic interest of the IAF prompts it to exaggerate wrong threats and talk of declining fighter assets. But it will not tell the defence minister about the logistics hell routinely faced by frontline squadrons in operations owing to the mindboggling diversity of combat aircraft in its inventory, a problem only the Rafale acquisition will exacerbate and, hence, about the urgent need to rationalise the force structure, ideally to Su-30s, the indigenous Tejas Mk-1 for short-range air defence, Tejas Mk-II as MMRCA, and the Su-50 PAK FA as fifth-generation fighter. Nor will the department of defence production officials disclose to Jaitley that the ToT provisions in arms contracts are a fraudulent farce because, while the foreign suppliers pocket billions of dollars, no core technologies, such as source codes (millions of lines of software) and flight control laws, are ever transferred. And that the local defence industry monopolised by defence public sector units (DPSUs) is incapable of absorbing and innovating even such technology as is, in fact, relayed to it because it only assembles aircraft from imported kits.

Terminating the Rafale deal will be disruptive but sending the message to the military, the DPSUs, the defence ministry bureaucracy, and foreign companies salivating for rich, one-sided, contracts that the Narendra Modi government is determined to make a new start and conduct defence business differently, is more important.


Karnad's points are well taken,but he places too much optimism about the LCA (Mk2) making the grade replacing the Rafale.It is not in the same league as the Rafale,underpowered and with far less range and endurance.As pointed out in the LCA td.,there are many issues till hanging fire with the LCA programme that require urgent attention before it can be inducted in worthwhile number to replace the MIG-21s which was its original purpose,not to serve as an MMRCA.

If the Rafale is too expensive,then we must look to other cost-effective alternatives so that the IAF's numbers and capability to not suffer disastrously in the Rafale is cancelled.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 25 Jul 2014 06:19

Russian planes no doubt:rotfl:.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby RoyG » 25 Jul 2014 08:42

Karan M wrote:Russian planes no doubt:rotfl:.


The deal in its present form is dead. Either we reduce the numbers or order 50-70 su-30mki and put the money into the LCA program. Private companies should eventually take over manufacturing.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_22539 » 25 Jul 2014 09:10

Karan M wrote:Russian planes no doubt:rotfl:.


His faux concern for the the fate of LCA is so obvious. He goes around on all threads stating that he is in support of it and then goes ahead with a big "but." He might be under the false impression that he might get more takers that way.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Prem » 25 Jul 2014 09:34

Should India divide the order between UAE Mirages and Rafale? This can cover the numbers as well $$ plus the advantage of already build infrastructure to fully utilize the Mirage2k.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_26622 » 25 Jul 2014 10:54

Splitting order on UAE Mirages and Rafale sounds like getting married to a dressed up old hag and her octogenerian Mom! Must have to be the only women left on this planet... but really are we that desperate ?

100 old hag Rafale planes is not going to even make PRC sneeze! We need 1000 decent planes to make PRC sick (2000 planes will make PRC terminally sick though this is really beyond our means unless 100% indigenised engine, radar and all munitions).

Save the money and get 500 LCA MK1 and 500 LCA MK2. At least PRC will respect the '1000' strength in numbers before flying over the himalayas.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_24684 » 25 Jul 2014 11:43

nik wrote:
100 old hag Rafale planes is not going to even make PRC sneeze! We need 1000 decent planes to make PRC sick (2000 planes will make PRC terminally sick though this is really beyond our means unless 100% indigenised engine, radar and all munitions)

Save the money and get 500 LCA MK1 and 500 LCA MK2. At least PRC will respect the '1000' strength in numbers before flying over the himalayas.



500+500 LCA for what defending our air space ..what is the Range of Tejas

did IAF allows Tejas to perform cross border ops

I think instead of 500 Tejas we build 400+ SAMS and 60 Tejas

Final question ..did world still relays on numbers game

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 25 Jul 2014 12:41

Jhujar wrote:Should India divide the order between UAE Mirages and Rafale? This can cover the numbers as well $$ plus the advantage of already build infrastructure to fully utilize the Mirage2k.


IAF is already trying to do consolidation of different fighter planes to maximum 6 types. Post 2025, it should be around 4 to 5, which is very good. Time to buy and maintain second hand planes is over. It is better to induct less capable but locally PRODUCED plane. Short term loss but long term gain. It is better to have a long term vision with calculated risks.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Jul 2014 15:47

SajeevJino wrote:
nik wrote:
100 old hag Rafale planes is not going to even make PRC sneeze! We need 1000 decent planes to make PRC sick (2000 planes will make PRC terminally sick though this is really beyond our means unless 100% indigenised engine, radar and all munitions)

Save the money and get 500 LCA MK1 and 500 LCA MK2. At least PRC will respect the '1000' strength in numbers before flying over the himalayas.



500+500 LCA for what defending our air space ..what is the Range of Tejas


Tejas' range is no less than swedish grippen which IAF invited for MMRCA. If IAF thought grippen had a chance of winning MMRCA then for sure what kasht IAF can have at being given 1000 Tejas fighters?

did IAF allows Tejas to perform cross border ops


I didn't know that airforces have some fighters/strikers which are not allowed to operate across the border.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 25 Jul 2014 17:39

Guys please read the earlier posts in the thread. A very good and credible analysis of Tejas combat radius has been done by Vivek Ahuja through modelling. Rahul M and Chacko have also contributed good insights. We have a very good fix on the combat radius ranges in different regimes and loads. Lets start using facts to inform our discussions.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 25 Jul 2014 17:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 25 Jul 2014 17:44

Vivek, Rahul M, Karan M, Indranil Roy

Maybe we should try to get a sticky post with combat radius of Tejas and other combat characteristics like AoA, spin, Instantaneous turn rates and Sustained Turn Rates.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 25 Jul 2014 18:18

Lca range would be half of Rafale but with buddy buddy refueling pods, equivalent to Rafale.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_26622 » 25 Jul 2014 20:45

SajeevJino wrote:
500+500 LCA for what defending our air space ..what is the Range of Tejas


One Rafale in air on a mission versus (200 million Rafale /30 million Tejas = 7 LCA in air)

What is more troubling for an opponent? One Rafale or 7 Tejas (tanker refueled) or 3 Tejas (buddy refueling). All carry same type of munitions, add in other factors and the answer is obviously in favor of Tejas.

SajeevJino wrote:did IAF allows Tejas to perform cross border ops


When PRC launches 3000 fighter on the first day of combat, IAF will press every flyable matchbox to fight back even Hawks and IJT will be called upon - equivalent to 'shit hitting the fan' moment for IAF.

SajeevJino wrote:I think instead of 500 Tejas we build 400+ SAMS and 60 Tejas

Final question ..did world still relays on numbers game


Good question but we need to stop thinking intelligently for a minute here. Any PRC general who wants to attack India when we donate 30+ billion every year (trade balance) is kind of stupid to begin with. But not stupid enough to see 2000 fighters as that will be insanity level. :)

Life is good for now as no chance PRC will attack India or US in near future. Both countries are cash cows for PRC - something to ponder upon and relax.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 25 Jul 2014 21:55

^^

No could be , would be, might be sir. The 'it is' analysis has been done by us which you can see if you have the patience and commitment to go through the previous posts in the thread. Exact numbers with loads and mission profiles. Facts and analysis.

For example, 300-350 km with 1 ton of payload for a High - Lo- High. The number is backed up by modelling, fuel fractions, drag due to loads etc. A a lot of work. But then some people might find such facts 'verbose' ;-)

Next step is to see which forward air bases we can base the LCA and distances to targets in Pakistan and routes to exit and enter, loiter time, role etc.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 25 Jul 2014 22:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_24684 » 25 Jul 2014 21:58

nik wrote:
SajeevJino wrote:
500+500 LCA for what defending our air space ..what is the Range of Tejas


One Rafale in air on a mission versus (200 million Rafale /30 million Tejas = 7 LCA in air)

What is more troubling for an opponent? One Rafale or 7 Tejas (tanker refueled) or 3 Tejas (buddy refueling). All carry same type of munitions, add in other factors and the answer is obviously in favor of Tejas.


Super Tucano is less cost than LCA we can double the numbers if we buy Tucano

nik wrote:
SajeevJino wrote:did IAF allows Tejas to perform cross border ops


When PRC launches 3000 fighter on the first day of combat, IAF will press every flyable matchbox to fight back even Hawks and IJT will be called upon - equivalent to 'shit hitting the fan' moment for IAF.



wrong answer ..I asked cross border ops

Any idea will IAF through every flyable machine if Chinese invade our main land

nik wrote:
SajeevJino wrote:I think instead of 500 Tejas we build 400+ SAMS and 60 Tejas

Final question ..did world still relays on numbers game


Good question but we need to stop thinking intelligently for a minute here. Any PRC general who wants to attack India when we donate 30+ billion every year (trade balance) is kind of stupid to begin with. But not stupid enough to see 2000 fighters as that will be insanity level. :)

Life is good for now as no chance PRC will attack India or US in near future. Both countries are cash cows for PRC - something to ponder upon and relax.


don't know what really you are trying to say

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_26622 » 25 Jul 2014 22:03

@ Akshay Kapoor

Appreciate the hard work. If you read my post carefully- I wrote following, building upon prior comment by Vic who synthesized the research succinctly - for everyone not included in 'us' benefit .

One Rafale or 7 Tejas (tanker refueled) or 3 Tejas (buddy refueling).

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_26622 » 25 Jul 2014 22:18

SajeevJino wrote: Super Tucano is less cost than LCA we can double the numbers if we buy Tucano


We can keep on debating but is this the best comparison you can come with ? Rafale and Tejas are 4.5 gen planes while Super Tucano is obviously Super gen plane. Resting all further comments as it's easy to get carried away.

SajeevJino wrote:
wrong answer ..I asked cross border ops


I did mention buddy and tanker refueling part in calc, for cross border ops. So where is the gap in logic?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Viv S » 25 Jul 2014 22:38

SajeevJino wrote:500+500 LCA for what defending our air space ..what is the Range of Tejas

did IAF allows Tejas to perform cross border ops

I think instead of 500 Tejas we build 400+ SAMS and 60 Tejas

Final question ..did world still relays on numbers game


Yes the Tejas has the range for cross border operations albeit only to shallow depths and with limited endurance which can be increased by aerial refueling. The Rafale has the range for deep strikes but lacks the VLO capability necessary to achieve that against a very sophisticated Chinese IADS.

To repeat -

1. Doesn't have the cost effectiveness of a work-horse like the Tejas.

2. Lacks the penetrative reach of an aircraft like the F-35.

3. Isn't available in a time-frame allowing falling squadron strength to be remedied.

To quote Brar_w - its a 4.5G aircraft at 5G costs in a 5G timeframe.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Jul 2014 02:19

Just posted this on PMoffice site, keeping only 1000 words, everyone please at least BRFite should write to PMO on this issue:

Equip IAF with 1500 Tejas LCA, instead of a 200 million dollar foreign jet in 126 numbers only. Rafale cost at 200 million a jet, while Tejas only costs 25 million per aircraft.

When PRC launches 3000 fighter on the first day of combat, IAF will press every flyable matchbox to fight back even Hawks and IJT will be called upon - equivalent to &39muck hitting the fan&39 moment for IAF. At the time what would IAF prefer

126 uber expensive europeanamerican jet OR 1500 Tejas taking on PRC airforce

500 Tejas Mk I and 1000 Tejas Mk II will make the borders on Bharatvarsh safe, while creating a big infrastruction of factories foundaries inhouse for the nation.

Due to less quantities of Tejas and Arjun tank, due to piddly quantity of orders.

If Arjun is ordered in same number as T-90 tank like 1600 tanks it will be economical to set up factories in Bharatvarsh for every nut and bolt will not be needed to import. Same for Tejas.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

Postby member_28476 » 26 Jul 2014 03:16

Numbers are derailing... Compare either fly away cost or Basic acquisition costs or total acquisition costs. Or full life cycle costs (for ex canadian do over 20 years). Difficult task. Especially when you put in a cost/mission...


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