Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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vic
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by vic »

Rafale may be a good plane, but the issue is what can we develop and manufacture indigenously with that insane amount of money? Now, the earliest Rafale can hit Indian service is in 2019 when LCA Mark-2 would already be around at 1/5 th the cost.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

i have been hearing this cost issue and over optimism with regard to indigenous development for some time now. So based on all this my understanding is that cost of Rafale is very high say $ 20-25 billion and with this we can make AMCA and more . Great.

I bet, spend this much money for the next 5 year and still we will not have a completely indigenous 5th gen fighter or even a Rafale/Typhoon class fighter .
If money was all that was needed then China would not be discussing engines and Su-35 with Russia or trying to get Stealth tech from all around the world.
Point is give importance to indigenous development and work your way forward so that we become self-reliant some day but not at the cost of immediate national security. For me this is paramount and the IAF needs great fighters in numbers to dominate the game.

Hope we are practical enough and brutally honest to ensure that we do not start comparing LCA to Typhoon / Rafale / F 22 etc like someone does for there JF 17 :wink:
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by vivek_ahuja »

dhiraj wrote:Point is give importance to indigenous development and work your way forward so that we become self-reliant some day but not at the cost of immediate national security. For me this is paramount and the IAF needs great fighters in numbers to dominate the game.

Hope we are practical enough and brutally honest to ensure that we do not start comparing LCA to Typhoon / Rafale / F 22 etc like someone does for there JF 17 :wink:
How do you reconcile this line of thinking with the fact that there is no money to pay for these Rafales, regardless of whether we want them or not?

We have Antony claiming at a premier defense expo that the defense ministry is out of money for large capital investments. The PM is making "cut our coat according to our cloth" arguments in public. And so on.

I may want a Ferrari and of course my Maruti will not compare with it so I won't even try. But if I don't have the money to pay for the Ferrari, I will have to make do with the Maruti, no?

If the IAF needs great numbers to dominate the game, they can as well do by massively expanding the LCA line to provide cheaper platforms for much less a price than what 126 or so Rafales would cost. And at much better returns to the country to show for it.

Yes the LCA is no Rafale. But I would take 2 LCAs for every Rafale that is offered to me.

Commonality, cheapness, local production, local modifications and upgrades, expanding industry and numbers. All of these less attractive issues favor the LCA over a uber-mensh Rafale deal.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sir, we really don't have money is one thing and made to beleive that we don't have money is something else.
If capital expenditure is cut to cover up for the deficit then there is problem.
Further having 2 LCAs for every Rafale make sense in terms of price , but in terms of roles and responsibility , i don't think they compare. In that case there is no need for US to go for F 22 / F 35 / B 2/ F 18 and similarly for many other countries including India with Mirage/Migs/Su-30 etc even though each of them are individually brilliant aircraft.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Yagnasri »

When we don't have money then what else is Ted option?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

The MRCA was never required to be a medium fighter. In the initial days there were concerns raised by the heavier contenders that the technical requirements were set very low and would be met easily, meaning all competing fighters would qualify for the next round. Once that happened, one of the lighter and cheaper fighter amongst the group(Gripen NG, f-16, and also Mig-35) would get selected being L1. Meaning that any additional capabilities brought to the table by the heavier fighters would be of no consequence. Unfortunately only the two most expensive fighters qualified.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

dhiraj wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sir, we really don't have money is one thing and made to beleive that we don't have money is something else.
If capital expenditure is cut to cover up for the deficit then there is problem.
Further having 2 LCAs for every Rafale make sense in terms of price , but in terms of roles and responsibility , i don't think they compare. In that case there is no need for US to go for F 22 / F 35 / B 2/ F 18 and similarly for many other countries including India with Mirage/Migs/Su-30 etc even though each of them are individually brilliant aircraft.
There is a huge problem with this argument.

The F-22/F-35/F-18/F-14/etc were planned resources. They had sufficient time and funds to deal with the pros/cons (we may or may not agree with their thinking, but that is a diff story)

On the Rafale vs.CA front, there is really nothing planned. On the contrary it is perhaps the most reactive set of thoughts. And, it is based around the price - perhaps solely. I do not think there is anyone who thinks that the Rafale is a duffer, but most seem to be inclined towards "it is a great plane that costs too much". Which is why one cannot really compare the MMRCA situation with others.

Also, one can make any amount of arguments to support the cost, but the thought that the Rafale costs too much does not go away. And, to me at least, the main reason is that Indians now have a solid alternative to compare it to AND it is an Indian alternative. And, when one brings the paper AMCA into the picture the alternative becomes even more tantalizing.

That the Rafale is a great plane is beyond doubt. So is the cost factor - it is beyond doubt. What anyone outside India thinks does not matter - and it should not matter (it may not sit well, but that is OK).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20317 »

vivek_ahuja wrote: I may want a Ferrari and of course my Maruti will not compare with it so I won't even try. But if I don't have the money to pay for the Ferrari, I will have to make do with the Maruti, no?
Coincidently this is the analogy I used in a little chit chat with my friends. We have a Toyota Fortuner in MKI, we can make lots of Maruti 800s (aka Tejas) and most likely will make a Renault Duster (aka AMCA) in 15-20 years. All this when we already have a few other Maruti Swift and Swift Desire in the garage getting overhauled.

Now do we need a Merc in between and how many and for how long.

Money even at 30 bil USD is not the problem. If the GoI decides to raise the budget it is not like it will be a big economic disaster. The main problem is that it will leave the whole budget lopsided, a big credit card balance to pay and still not much to learn.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Kakkaji »

The whole Rafale deal was sold on the ToT aspect. If it can bring in technologies into the Indian aviation industry that would otherwise take 10-20 years to develop, then it is worth it.

Otherwise just buy 60 Rafales off the shelf to supplement the M2Ks.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

And with the 5th-gen fighters arriving by 2020,we will be buying the tech for the previous gen. Merc at new gen prices!

With the upgrade details being available for the Super Sukhois,and the entire fleet to eventually be raised to that std.,the raison d'etre for the Rafale starts becoming weaker by the day.When one can acquire two MIG-29Ks for the price of one Rafale,one needs to stand back and review the entire acquisition programme of the IAF objectively.It cannot be "Rafale or nothing".Alternative options have to be considered.
It is the cost that is going to beggar the air force which will have little moolah to spread around its various requirements.Secondly,with the advent of smart stand-off PGMs,lesser complex and expensive aircraft can do many of the strike tasks that the Rafale is tasked for.why buy a Merc or Roller when a bomb truck will do?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Philip wrote:And with the 5th-gen fighters arriving by 2020,we will be buying the tech for the previous gen. Merc at new gen prices!

With the upgrade details being available for the Super Sukhois,and the entire fleet to eventually be raised to that std.,the raison d'etre for the Rafale starts becoming weaker by the day.When one can acquire two MIG-29Ks for the price of one Rafale,one needs to stand back and review the entire acquisition programme of the IAF objectively.It cannot be "Rafale or nothing".Alternative options have to be considered.
It is the cost that is going to beggar the air force which will have little moolah to spread around its various requirements.Secondly,with the advent of smart stand-off PGMs,lesser complex and expensive aircraft can do many of the strike tasks that the Rafale is tasked for.why buy a Merc or Roller when a bomb truck will do?
If the IAF still has the rafale as priority n°1 compared to other programs (LCA, Super sukhoi, FGFA, AMCA...) it might just tell something many are not eager to hear.

Especially when india is not only willing to buy a cheap rafale directly from France but pay a huge amount more to get the technology and industrial facilities & supply chain to manufacture it.

My point of view that is probably not main stream here but anyway I take the risk:

5th gen: it doesn't only take to have a blended fuselage and internal weapon bays to pretend being a true 5th gen jet. A clue : the F35 with dozens of prototypes, thousands of top notch engineers from several countries still have a hard time (more than ten years) to write and sort out the expected 6 millions line of codes to achieve true sensor integration and sensor fusion (and not only sensor correlations which is often advertised as sensor fusion). Without downplaying FGFA and AMCA efforts, it is more than doubtful that they will ever achieve anything close in terms of sheer level of technology. I believe the IAF is well aware of that situation and is just being realistic. FGFA and AMCA looks like 5th gen aircraft, might share a few attributes with them, but that's about it.

-LCA: even though recent declarations gave the program some kind of a boost, program record advise to remain cautious. The LCA has the merit to be cheap and locally built, but I don't believe it (or even two LCA) will match a rafale in terms of punch, range and sensor integration&fusion. There is no jingoism in this rational, even Dassault adverts that two rafale are worth 6 mirage 2000 which are already bigger with a bigger punch than the LCA. If you look at the amount of bombs, missiles and external fuel it carries, how many LCA would be needed to match rafale capability ? I guess three LCA but they will still fall short of range compared to the rafale.
Also if the LCA was such a credible alternative to the rafale why don't we see it competing on export markets like the still almost paper plane Gripen E ? Also Brazil has strong links with India, they could have consider having a sake in LCA...If anybody except India is interested, it might say the LCA program has still a long way to go before being remotely competitive/credible. Don't get me wrong, I respect the LCA program, just that it is not seriously considered as a rafale alternative.

-The Sukhoi-30 is a big, powerful and impressive jet but its technology is not the most recent and is certainly much more expensive to operate than the smaller rafale while the latter has nothing to envy in terms of payload and range...Then there is the Super Sukhoi-30 upgrade, but unless the upgrade will cost billions with years of development it will not change fundamentally the Su-30 weapon system architecture and the way it operates : sensors will be upgraded but pilots will still be faced with the same overload of informations making it more vulnerable than jets with true sensor fusion.

With the rafale, IAF is getting a 4.5 gen jet with true sensor fusion and a high level of sensor integration which will make it of a category of its own in the IAF inventory and provide a nice "preview" of what to expect from a true 5th gen jets like the F35. Paying for the ToT (not possible with the F35) will be a solid step towards mastering future indigenous programs and probably a mandatory step to think about the AMCA.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23694 »

^^^^^^^^^^^
perfect :)
just to add if after spending so much money for Rafale if good and high end TOT does not happen then it will be not that the French negotiator where smarter but that we failed to exploit this deal to the hilt and then be rest assured that even after FGFA nothing much will change in the Indian aerospace industry.
Bottomline : use such deals to make up for the lost time for critical tech. and if the NO one is ready to give as it has been argued then be rest assured that dream of an indigenous jet engine or a true 5th gen AMCA will remain a dream for quite a while.
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

LOL at Rafales true sensor fusion...as if it justifies the cost and its claimed superiority. Pretty much every aircraft out there now has sensor fusion in the works and we are being told it is a unique attribute of the Rafale alone.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20292 »

^^

So are the French giving us the code and the SDK for sensor fusion?

If we pay 20 bn$ for the code, can we plug this into the LCA program and have a equivalent sensor fusion cockpit soon ?


Karan M ji:-

JSF also touts its DASS and true-sensor fusion. I suspect that the Rafale , even though it might be superior in presentation to the Russian offerings, is nowhere near the JSF (proved by its costs and time taken to develop it).

Question is.

How valuable is this "true sensor fusion" is the question to be asked from the experts? Do we have dogfight data between these awesome sensor fused planes and not ?

Does the losing performance of 4 F 15 awesome electronics vs. 12 Mig 21s (amongst other examples) conclusively prove that numbers are more important than technology, for our country?

Or is the fact that most superpowers or aspiring superpowers try to build their own military hardware in house, the reason to plough money into our own programs?

I think, for me personally, as a taxpayer, I would rather buy and support my own country men's hardwork than some TFTA gora in Eurozone.

They look good, and their countries are clean, but push come to shove, in my own personal experience my countrymen have helped me far more than videshis.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20317 »

arthuro ji this is the point where one says 'its not you its me'.

The preview of sensor fusion et al that you talk of - what are the chances that Indian engineers would be reducing themselves to the status of maintainers while the rest of the ambitious world reaps the benefits of hard work that goes into all the esoteric development activities.

In fact having seen the painful labor in the hardware part of the LCA effort and the seeming challenge in the new material for the newer radars I believe sensor fusion is actually better achievable a target compared to other 5th gen technologies. After all we have to let the banglore gang grow into some real product makers too while remaining within their forte of excess available brainpower capacity. This will also enable the core defense research establishments to focus on the part that simply cannot be outsourced even to Indian entities. Notice sensor fusion as it gets talked about (& is understandable by my level of intellect) can be applied even to the lesser generations of hardware.

Mota mota LCA Mk 3-4 can also dare to sport a sensor fusion capability.

I think the difference between your position and mine is that you (probably others too) want the whole deal in one nice Iphone type packaging while I am willing to go the Rus way of solutions they can customize to the size of their pockets.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Karan M wrote:LOL at Rafales true sensor fusion...as if it justifies the cost and its claimed superiority. Pretty much every aircraft out there now has sensor fusion in the works and we are being told it is a unique attribute of the Rafale alone.
That's incorrect. To date only F22 and rafale feature sensor fusion operationally with the F35 to follow. What others call sensor fusion is a simple correlation of tracks.

There is an excellent slide from Lockheed PR which explain the difference :
http://s619.photobucket.com/user/Spudma ... 8.jpg.html
As for rafale sensor fusion, it is widely advertised by Dassault and french pilots and was a characteristic which was outlined in Swiss air force technical evaluation.
1) Dassault PR:
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/def ... ta-fusion/
2) Question to a rafale pilot:
Corentin: Hello Captain,Thank you for these clarifications! I am perhaps too curious but can you explain how the Rafale is capable of firing beyond visual range "passively", and how far?
Do other airplanes of the same generation (EF, Gripen, F-18) use, to your knowledge, equivalent techniques ?

Cne Romain:

The Rafale merges the informations coming from its sensors to give a very reliable and clear picture to the pilot. It's already a considerable advantage over previous-generation aircraft, including EF and Gripen. When the pilot decides to fire a air to air missile, the missile leaves the aircraft taking automatically into account all available informations.
When the radar is not used, the missile can use the OSF (a TV camera coupled with a laser rangefinder), the informations provided by another aircraft via the MIDS, a heat source detected by the OSF or a MICA IR, or finally a localization by SPECTRA. Faced with these sensors, stealth is useless and we know, thanks to our tests ,that our missiles are very effective in such context.
http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romai ... e-corentin

3) A fascinating insight of the swiss evaluation...As you see not everyone can claim "sensor fusion"
“The strong points of the Rafale were the quality of its sensors, such as the PESA (passive electronically scanned array) radar; the frontal optronics; and the EW (electronic warfare) suite, Spectra,” the report on the 2008 fly-off noted. “The good data fusion of all its sensors allowed to provide the pilot a very good situational awareness,” it continued. “The weak point of the Rafale was the lack of a helmet-mounted sight system,” the evaluators remarked.

The report praised the aerodynamic performance of the Eurofighter, notably its ability to supercruise at Mach 1.4. But the sensor data fusion and the EW suite were “weak points,” while range and systems reliability were noted to be “limiting factors.” Moreover, the report said, “the capabilities of the Eurofighter to fulfill recce and strike missions were rated as unsatisfactory.”

The report acknowledged that because of the Gripen’s design–it is the smallest of the contenders and the only one powered by a single engine–its “endurance, aircraft performances and aircraft weapon load were among the main limiting factors.” The evaluators said there was no sensor data fusion between the radar and EW suite, although the latter “was among the strong points of the Gripen.”
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... ning-point
Image
Image
member_20292
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20292 »

^^^

thanks arthuro.

I'd rather have my 20 bn $ spent on developing sensor fusion to be delivered by indian companies, 10 years later, than give it to dassault right now.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Hitesh »

^^Agreed!!

This is something that India needs to do for itself because IAF needs the source code and needs to protect it from cyberattacks or others exploiting certain loopholes or trojan horses viruses.

If the advantage of Rafale is sensor fusion, then it is something that India can do given its strong IT base.

I used to like Rafale but given the costs involved, I would go with AMCA and LCA II programs.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Pretty pictures don't an argument make.

Arthuro, sensor fusion is equal to taking inputs from multiple sensors and correlating them for a unified track displayed to the pilot with maximum accuracy for that track. Nothing less, nothing more. One can then quibble about how that sensor fusion is implemented, but your claims that Rafales implementation is better display wise than JSF or EF won't find many takers I am afraid. Each nation does a fair bit of work there and the swiss results were from earlier tranches of typhoons.

Guess what?? Sensor fusion Being done for the Indian AEW &C. In trials as we speak, due in 2014-015.
Yes, multi sensor data fusion, check the first link, from computers which are capable of as much and more than Rafales MDPU.

Which development in Indian aerospace, is the reason the LCA MK2 is stated to have it without huge hassle, and also, the same IMA computers on the MK2 are being used for the Super30 upgrade as well. Go figure whether it wont have sensor fusion and how your comments that it wont be as advanced as Rafale and hence it wont be an equivalent...dice throwing at its worst.

Sensor fusion and advanced functions on Indian AEW&C, of an order higher than that on the Rafale, given it also includes a battle management function integrated with the sensor fusion and its not sensor fusion alone.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ibfx3svGoD0/U ... &+CS-4.jpg

More powerful radar and IFF
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iKz6Q_ukcCk/U ... &+CS-2.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9Vxd-3TYbbc/U ... &+CS-3.jpg
This is far more comprehensive than the ESM part of the Spectra BTW
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-57oneFIEeDs/U ... &+CS-6.jpg
A datalink as well
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rqp4ipYmKZA/U ... &+CS-7.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oB4_tyBnyz8/U ... &+CS-8.jpg
Last edited by Karan M on 24 Feb 2014 02:20, edited 1 time in total.
arthuro
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Karan M wrote:Pretty pictures don't an argument make.

Arthuro, sensor fusion is equal to taking inputs from multiple sensors and correlating them for a unified track displayed to the pilot with maximum accuracy for that track. Nothing less, nothing more. One can then quibble about how that sensor fusion is implemented, but your claims that Rafales implementation is better display wise than JSF or EF won't find many takers I am afraid. Each nation does a fair bit of work there.

Guess what?? Sensor fusion Being done for the Indian AEW &C. In trials as we speak, due in 2014-015.
Yes, multi sensor data fusion, check the first link, from computers which are capable of as much and more than Rafales MDPU.

Which development in Indian aerospace, is the reason the LCA MK2 is stated to have it without huge hassle, and also, the same IMA computers on the MK2 are being used for the Super30 upgrade as well. Go figure whether it wont have sensor fusion and how your comments that it wont be as advanced as Rafale and hence it wont be an equivalent...dice throwing at its worst.

Sensor fusion and advanced functions on Indian AEW&C, of an order higher than that on the Rafale, given it also includes a battle management function integrated with the sensor fusion and its not sensor fusion alone.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ibfx3svGoD0/U ... &+CS-4.jpg

More powerful radar and IFF
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iKz6Q_ukcCk/U ... &+CS-2.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9Vxd-3TYbbc/U ... &+CS-3.jpg
This is far more comprehensive than the ESM part of the Spectra BTW
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-57oneFIEeDs/U ... &+CS-6.jpg
A datalink as well
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rqp4ipYmKZA/U ... &+CS-7.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oB4_tyBnyz8/U ... &+CS-8.jpg
Without disrespect, your answer shows that you did not take time to read my post and the few links associated. If you took a few second more before jumping on your keyboard, you would see that's not only about pictures.

Just an example:
your claims that Rafales implementation is better display wise than JSF or EF won't find many takers I am afraid. Each nation does a fair bit of work there.
So could you please:
1) quote the part of my answer where I did assert that rafale sensor fusion is superior to the F35. I never asserted that rafale sensor fusion would be superior to the F35...Actually quite the opposite.
2) quote the part of my answer where I provided a reliable and independent source asserting that the typhoon has a weak sensor fusion just like the gripen
3) find the link that details the difference between sensor correlation and sensor fusion, two notions you are mixing.

About indian Awacs, how much indian is it ? Where did I claim this technology is exclusive to fighter jets ? Aren't we talking about fighter jets which have much more constraint than an awacs ? Did you notice that rafale multisensor fusion is more comprehensive with optronics from FSO and missiles ?
Last edited by arthuro on 24 Feb 2014 02:43, edited 2 times in total.
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

you quoted the dated swiss trials report and claimed:

fascinating insight of the swiss evaluation...As you see not everyone can claim "sensor fusion"

dodgy to say the least because there was no real Gripen NG there, nor was there a definitive Typhoon. The Rafale was ahead in sensor fusion at that time, but so what! Irrelevant to today when the similar capability will be on a definitive Typhoon.

Similarly, there is nothing magical about any of the data claimed in your pics. It merely explains how sensor fusion is done and the result, which is the same basic end state many countries are shooting for with their own unique software and hardware combos.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

fundamentally, you are wedded to the notion that the Rafale sensor fusion is something unique because it is on the Rafale, but you have no clear answer how its magical or better than that on other aircraft when they field mature systems with a diverse sensor farm superior to that on the Rafale in several respects.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Karan M wrote:you quoted the dated swiss trials report and claimed:

fascinating insight of the swiss evaluation...As you see not everyone can claim "sensor fusion"

dodgy to say the least because there was no real Gripen NG there, nor was there a definitive Typhoon. The Rafale was ahead in sensor fusion at that time, but so what! Irrelevant to today when the similar capability will be on a definitive Typhoon.

Similarly, there is nothing magical about any of the data claimed in your pics. It merely explains how sensor fusion is done and the result, which is the same basic end state many countries are shooting for with their own unique software and hardware combos.
Again your a bit paranoiac and aggressive : I just pointed that the only fighter aircrafts with true sensor fusion to date are the F22 and the rafale. Probably the gripen NG will have this feature and at some point and the Typhoon too next decade...With money you can imagine having sensor fusion on a cessna if you want but that's not the point.
But to date nor the Gripen NG and even more significantly nor the typhoon feature such a capability...Nor than any fighter types in indian inventory.

And you are also still failing to grasp the difference between correlated tracks which only take the best single track in a federated architecture with true sensor fusion like with the rafale where any sensor inputs are processed through a centralized processing units to get the most reliable picture of the battlefield.
fundamentally, you are wedded to the notion that the Rafale sensor fusion is something unique because it is on the Rafale, but you have no clear answer how its magical or better than that on other aircraft when they field mature systems with a diverse sensor farm superior to that on the Rafale in several respects.
There are clear clues, the swiss evaluation being an independent assessment. Don't forget that phase two assessed how aircrafts would perform in 2015 with scheduled improvements. The ranking between the rafale, typhoon and the gripen did not change. So yes this is rafale trade mark to date and probably still for quite some times...

I believe IAF knows it and understand the potential link with it...I also believe that this capability is not easy to copy. For these reasons IAF is ready to pay a big amount of money to acquire the ToT associated with this technology (and others).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Operational Capabilities of the Eurofighter Typhoon

Page 21 onwards.

Sensor fusion consists of two components: Sensors (hardware) and Fusion (Software).

IF AT ALL India is looking for anything it is the "Sensor" component.

My feel is that India WAS looking for much of these technologies. No longer as much, and as time goes by that window will close. And, as time goes by, the Rafale craving (and it is a good, honest craving) will naturally cease (outside of building the number of squadrons). At $15 billion the Rafale could be worth it and its contribution: How to test high end components and manufacturing techniques.

The Sensor Correlation and Fusion Process
Categories of Data Fusion:

Four categories of data fusion application that must be mastered to achieve the objectives
of New World Vistas include:

• Target Data Fusion
. The fusion of point target data from multiple co-located or dispersed sensors to develop target state (tracks) and identities for C4I systems.
• Multisensor ATR Data Fusion
. The fusion of imaging (two-dimensional) and non-imaging data to perform automatic target recognition.
• Image Data Fusion
. The fusion of multiple sources of image (two-dimensional) and non-image data to generate enhanced image products that present the full information content from all sources.
• Spatial Data Fusion
. The fusion of more general spatial data (three-dimensional representations of real-world surfaces and objects that are imaged) combines multiple data views into a composite set incorporating the best attributes of all contributors
The Rafale - today, is not the Rafale when the plane was tested. point being India has moved on and the Rafale not as much (we cannot expect it to). And by next year this time the Rafale will be a lot more plain. Again naturally.

The Rafale will then be even less in value.

Anything beyond $15 billion the Rafale is not worth it.
Cain Marko
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Cain Marko »

I do suspect that the sensor mix and fusion on Rafale is it's USP. The Swiss evals are a rather good indicator of this. Not only were those evals taking into consideration a 2015 scenario, bot also included the super hornet, a bird known for its electronic wizardry. Then there is the mica iir, which only the rafale fields, perhaps another pointer to it's usp. Again, the atlc exercise and the rafales decent performance against the f22 might be another indication. I think the IAF clearly saw this and chose the rafale and continues s to insist upon it even in the light of possible gen 5 BIRDS in the near future threat matrix.

Of course I am not sure if this usp is not worth a simple off the shelf buy, which woul probably reduce t be cost considerably. Point is, the rafale is no doubt an exceptional bird, however, does it warrant such an expensive acquisition route?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

There is an excellent slide from Lockheed PR which explain the difference :
http://s619.photobucket.com/user/Spudma ... 8.jpg.html
I am not sure when that was considered "Sensor Fusion". Where is "Fusion" in that?
Philip
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

Does one imagine that other nations development of aircraft will remain frozen? If one has a Swiss evaluation to consider,here is another (a trifle dated) Aus Air Power assessment of the FGFA/T-50 in comparison with other fighters to chew upon.

http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-Russia ... h-2011.pdf

Russian Fighter Technology Accelerates
Xcpts:
The aerodynamic design of the T-50 is innovative,
and intended clearly to achieve ‘extreme agility’
throughout the envelope. The fully moving tails,
movable inlet strakes, 3D thrust vectoring,
and leading and trailing edge surfaces extend
considerably on the superlative aerodynamics of
the Flanker. The T-50 is clearly intended to outfly
the F-22 in close combat and supersonic combat.
Most of the T-50’s weapons will be carried in a
long weapon bay in the floor of the fuselage tunnel.
Two ‘scab’ fairings were evidently added late in the
design to carry WVR missiles, likely the RVV-MD in
early aircraft. Intended early weapons include the
RVV-MD, an enhanced R-73/74 Archer, the RVV-
SD, an enhanced R-77M Adder, and the large 200
nautical mile R-172 missile, intended to kill AEW&C
aircraft and tankers from standoff ranges. A new
internally carried ASM is in development, as is a
yet to be displayed small diameter bomb analogue.
The sensor suite is to include the large Tikhomirov-
NIIP active phased array or AESA radar, a new
Infrared Search/Track system, and an advanced
radio-frequency surveillance system, a suite similar
to that initially planned for the F-22A Raptor.
While uncertainties will continue with respect
to the stealth performance of the aft fuselage,
it is abundantly clear that the T-50 PAK-FA will
not match the stealth performance of the F-22A
Raptor, but will be more agile and manoeuvrable,
especially in close combat, and will have better
range and persistence by virtue of greater fuel fraction
The T-50 PAK-AF will outperform the F-35 Joint
Strike Fighter in all cardinal parameters, and
will in a mature design produce similar stealth
performance.
Evolved legacy fighters like the F-15SE, F/A-18E/F
and Eurocanards are wholly outclassed by the T-50
and have little hope of surviving in combat with this design
The Su-35S is a fully digital design, and the highest
performing Flanker variant, with supercruise
capability, albeit not as good as the supercruise
optimised F-22A Raptor. The new Irbis E hybrid
phased array radar has around twice the power-
aperture performance rating of the Super Hornet’s
APG-79, with commensurate range advantages,
but less performance than the APG-82 active
phased array intended for block upgrades on some
F-15 variants.
In terms of raw kinematic performance and
agility, the Su-35S outclasses all Western fighters
other than the F-22A Raptor. In terms of radar
range performance, it falls slightly below the
F-22A’s APG-77 and the intended APG-82 F-15C/E
installation. The combination of a long range
radar and supercruise allows the aircraft to gain
up to 30 percent more kinematic range out of its
intended Beyond Visual Range missile armament,
in comparison with conventional fighters like the
F/A-18 series or the F-35, which must shoot
“uphill” if attempting to engage the higher and
faster flying Su-35S
The high performance of the Su-35S, its large
missile payload, excellent persistence and long
range sensor capability make the most lethal
conventional fighter ever built.
Here is an interesting series of papers presented at RUSI by a Russian expert on air defence,the opposite of air power.Ground based as well as airborne systems are mentioned.Excellent slide show.

http://www.slideshare.net/RUSIEVENTS/ig ... -air-power
Igor Sutyagin: The Opposite of Air Power
by Royal United Services Institute for Defence and Security Studies on Nov 06, 2013

Dr Igor Sutagin spoke at the RUSI Air Power Conference Nov. 2013. He discussed Russian capabilities from his own first-hand experience as a Soviet officer. More details http://www.rusi.org/airpowerconference/
NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

I think we need to stop worrying (too much?) about the Chinese. From Jane's, Nov, 2013:

Nov, 2013 :: CAD images suggest 'strike' version of Shenyang J-31
Key Points

* CAD images that have appeared on Chinese websites suggest a strike version of Shenyang's J-31 stealth fighter
* The CAD images cannot be verified but would make sense given the PLAAF's lack of interest in the existing J-31 programme
I think India can safely shelve the MMRCA program. Now at $15 billion, it is not *really* worth it.
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

arthuro wrote: Again your a bit paranoiac and aggressive : I just pointed that the only fighter aircrafts with true sensor fusion to date are the F22 and the rafale. Probably the gripen NG will have this feature and at some point and the Typhoon too next decade...With money you can imagine having sensor fusion on a cessna if you want but that's not the point.
I am not being paranoiac and aggressive but you are playing fast and loose with the figures and clearly you dont like being called out on it. Tough luck, repeating something dodgy a dozen times over wont make it the truth. The EF already has sensor fusion. Your bringing in an older Swiss evaluation to say it doesnt is meaningless. Similarly, the Rafale does not have an IRST today, it is presumed the IAF version will. So by your selective standards, the Rafale would be inferior if the data today is taken as definitive.
But to date nor the Gripen NG and even more significantly nor the typhoon feature such a capability...Nor than any fighter types in indian inventory.
Your claims.. nothing else nothing more. Please prove current Typhoon does not have any sensor fusion.
And you are also still failing to grasp the difference between correlated tracks which only take the best single track in a federated architecture with true sensor fusion like with the rafale where any sensor inputs are processed through a centralized processing units to get the most reliable picture of the battlefield.
Its interesting how you quote the very data you need and yet seem unable to understand it yourself. Sorry, but what exactly is unique about the Rafales centralized processing units again. I just showed you a similar architecture on a different platform, the Indian AEW&C, with computers and mass storage capability that dwarf the Rafales and with sensors that are more powerful. They employ the same methods and even provide battle management capabilities (which directly translate to work done on programs run by the same organization) and still you say that there is something special about sensor fusion on the Rafale which is not equal to sensor fusion as the world knows it bar whats on the F-22 . I ask, what exactly is this USP? Instead of replying you say well, Rafale has it, others dont. Please specify what exactly is unique about Rafales sensor fusion vs other peoples sensor fusion.
Until you answer this one question, calling me names wont help.
There are clear clues, the swiss evaluation being an independent assessment. Don't forget that phase two assessed how aircrafts would perform in 2015 with scheduled improvements. The ranking between the rafale, typhoon and the gripen did not change. So yes this is rafale trade mark to date and probably still for quite some times...
The Swiss evaluation is dated. By the same standards, whatever areas the EF was ahead, would make it clear it remained ahead, right? But thats not the case. The Swiss eval is useful data to puncture the propaganda that Rafale was inferior to the EF, being run by the latter camp. But its not a definitive mark of superiority forever.
I believe IAF knows it and understand the potential link with it...I also believe that this capability is not easy to copy. For these reasons IAF is ready to pay a big amount of money to acquire the ToT associated with this technology (and others).
Your assumptions.. OTOH IAF wants TOT for local spares and support and cost effective supply.
Last edited by Karan M on 24 Feb 2014 12:58, edited 1 time in total.
Karan M
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Cain Marko wrote:I do suspect that the sensor mix and fusion on Rafale is it's USP. The Swiss evals are a rather good indicator of this. Not only were those evals taking into consideration a 2015 scenario, bot also included the super hornet, a bird known for its electronic wizardry. Then there is the mica iir, which only the rafale fields, perhaps another pointer to it's usp. Again, the atlc exercise and the rafales decent performance against the f22 might be another indication. I think the IAF clearly saw this and chose the rafale and continues s to insist upon it even in the light of possible gen 5 BIRDS in the near future threat matrix.

Of course I am not sure if this usp is not worth a simple off the shelf buy, which woul probably reduce t be cost considerably. Point is, the rafale is no doubt an exceptional bird, however, does it warrant such an expensive acquisition route?
The Rafale may well have this but does it have it as something others cant incorporate? Thats the point.
Super Hornet, latest block, is slated to get sensor fusion as well. Its merely a function of integrating the data and processing it for unified display to the pilot and (more complex) assigning for battle engagement.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20317 »

AEW&C connecting with SAM batteries was news to me. A happy one. I was looking for a confirmation. Thanks for that.

On fusion, the tech demo stage may be over but where is the confirmation that SAM support like Akash can understand the data that AEW&C is giving out.

When the Amerikhans and French display their wares they know they have it or will have it in considerable numbers. In our case we have no confirmations. This becomes especially difficult to bear when you know that it is about money.

Presuming that we have this capability to sensor fuse our data. But we do not have enough data linked platforms of this kind, then what use remains of such a capability. IOW, one of the biggest advantage of the sensor fused state will be that an aircraft can be kept up for the attack with the ~same efficiency as any other by linking it with the data available from other crafts. The data having hopped around on different platforms on the way. Completely disregarding the jamming that the first aircraft is subjected to. The same goes for other assets. Think of this as the thousand all seeing eyes of Indra add a few ears too and a few skins and a few noses to it.

However we cannot reach this state of affairs because we do not have the assets (confirmation?) that are useful in such manner. And we cannot reach that state unless we get enough money into this. But with 126 Raffy we can hope to train a few hundred engineers on the maintenance of these things and that is it. Badle mein kya mila?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:If the IAF still has the rafale as priority n°1 compared to other programs (LCA, Super sukhoi, FGFA, AMCA...) it might just tell something many are not eager to hear.
The IAF isn't going to be signing the cheque off to Dassault. The fact that its not been signed might just tell something that many are not eager to hear.

Especially when india is not only willing to buy a cheap rafale directly from France but pay a huge amount more to get the technology and industrial facilities & supply chain to manufacture it.

5th gen: it doesn't only take to have a blended fuselage and internal weapon bays to pretend being a true 5th gen jet. A clue : the F35 with dozens of prototypes, thousands of top notch engineers from several countries still have a hard time (more than ten years) to write and sort out the expected 6 millions line of codes to achieve true sensor integration and sensor fusion (and not only sensor correlations which is often advertised as sensor fusion). Without downplaying FGFA and AMCA efforts, it is more than doubtful that they will ever achieve anything close in terms of sheer level of technology. I believe the IAF is well aware of that situation and is just being realistic. FGFA and AMCA looks like 5th gen aircraft, might share a few attributes with them, but that's about it.
Hmm.. F-35. With your endorsement now, looks better still. :wink:

-LCA: even though recent declarations gave the program some kind of a boost, program record advise to remain cautious. The LCA has the merit to be cheap and locally built, but I don't believe it (or even two LCA) will match a rafale in terms of punch, range and sensor integration&fusion.
How about four Tejas for the cost of one Rafale.

Similar acquisition cost.
Higher operating cost.
14 ton payload v 9.5 ton.
32 hardpoints v 14 hardpoints
4x sortie rate
Lower attrition rate

Other things that you can buy for the cost of one Rafale -

1 x Su-30MKI + 2 x Tejas
1 x ERJ-145 AEW&C
75-100 x Nirbhay LRCM

With the rafale, IAF is getting a 4.5 gen jet with true sensor fusion and a high level of sensor integration which will make it of a category of its own in the IAF inventory and provide a nice "preview" of what to expect from a true 5th gen jets like the F35. Paying for the ToT (not possible with the F35) will be a solid step towards mastering future indigenous programs and probably a mandatory step to think about the AMCA.
ToT has played a very limited role in assisting domestic aviation programs (as is more than evident from ADA's history). Also, while ToT for the F-35's avionics is off-the-table, the domestic industry has already achieved critical mass in terms of avionics development. It can still assimilate plenty from the F-35's high tolerance airframe manufacture though. And finally, if the ADA/HAL can approach a foreign contractor for design consultancy.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

I am not being paranoiac and aggressive
IF you do not agree with him, you are (from his point of view).
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Your claims.. nothing else nothing more. Please prove current Typhoon does not have any sensor fusion.
Hello Karan M,

The typhoon did not change fundamentally from the swiss evaluation which already anticipated planned incremental upgrade until 2015. Incorporating a sensor fusion capability, I mean not only a simple "federation" of sensors into a single tactical display is a significant piece of development. So besides swiss evaluation which did not anticipate a true sensor fusion capability for the typhoon, if such feature was actually being developed for the typhoon it would simply not go unnoticed. You would have first a big PR campaign from Eurofighter Gmbh with pilot interviews detailing the prowess of this new capability and so on...Every fighter aircraft manufacturers do that...

For these two reasons, it is actually your task to try to prove now that the typhoon feature an actual sensor fusion capability (and not a mere federation of tracks).

You might found this meaningless but nevertheless I found this interesting to show that's this is not only my own isolated PoV :
But as I compared the three of them, this is what came to light. The Rafale is the only platform which boasts of complete sensor fusion through the MDPU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale) which is a comlete Integrated Modular Avionics System (http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/issue/feature/8420.html) parallel to the types used on the F-22 Raptor and the F-35. The Eurofighter too boasts of the AIS (http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/sensors.html) which aids in sensor fusion but it's avionics structure is still federated as it lacks an IMA system whereas in the Rafale where the avionics structure is completely unified and a common API is used to access the hardware and network resources, thus simplifying the hardware and software integration. The ARINC 653 is the most popular utility which is used to host multiple applications of different software levels on the same hardware in the context of a Integrated Modular Avionics architecture. Now the advantages of an IMA over the orthodox federated structure that we see in the Typhoon is that it allows for a complete overlay of all data collected from on-board and off-board sensors in real time, it allows the user to upgrade the software and hardware without any hassles and the integration is completely streamlined due to the use of an open architecture and common software, the AIS in the Typhoon ventures to provide a similar capability as far as real time sensor fusion is concerned but it is not a complete solution as such and it lacks the free adaptability and versatility of a true IMA. Now recently the SAAB team working on the Gripen IN claimed that they would be using COTS software components and the ARINC 653 to boost their avionics package (http://www.scribd.com/doc/35842834/G...-Made-in-India). My question is that if the Gripen IN is looking forward to applying such a software package then is it because it hosts an Integrated modular avionics package much like the Rafale and Raptor? Does any one have any definitive information on this topic?
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... n-V/page37

regards

Viv S,
Hmm.. F-35. With your endorsement now, looks better still.


I never dismissed F35 capabilities as a whole even though it has some compromises like any fighter jets. It will obviously set a new standard in terms of avionics, there is no question about that. My point was twofold:
1) in the context of the MRCA competition it would not make the cut as ToT and local manufacturing would be hardly possible due to US restrictions.
2) IF manufactured locally with all the ToT (which is highly unlikely given the reason above), the price for 126 locally built F35 would be immense, far exceeding that of the rafale in the same conditions.
This two objections were to address the argument of the F35 as an alternative for MRCA. But I do not doubt the F35 will prove very effective as a fighter jet, and I never claimed the rafale would beat the F35 in avionics which is absurd. I just said it would give a good "preview" of what an actual 5th gen jet could provide in terms of system capabilities as the rafale already provide an actual sensor fusion capability although not as robust as the F35 when developed. I think it is a rather balanced assessment.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

For what it is worth, the story line (even to my surprise) is that India had requested (some say 3 times) that they be briefed specifically on the F-35B.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Karan M »

Arthuro, you are the one claiming Typhoon lacks sensor fusion, so you prove it. What an amusing way to debaye otherwise, first you state it, and then I must prove it for you?

And what is this MDPU and federated stuff and how does it support your point? That you are quoting a forum participants personal view shows that you yourself are not exactly clear on all these details. If the Su-35 (f.e.) uses a federated system for better redundancy, more computing power, and is willing to trade off the increased weight, volume, LRU count for an overall better sensor fusion plus weapons management system, its their choice to make!

In short, this ("where the avionics structure is completely unified and a common API is used to access the hardware and network resources, thus simplifying the hardware and software integration") is correct in theory. The problems with the JSF code point out that theory sometimes meets reality in terms of difficult implementations (despite the experience on the F-22 CIP).

This ("Now the advantages of an IMA over the orthodox federated structure that we see in the Typhoon is that it allows for a complete overlay of all data collected from on-board and off-board sensors in real time") is not necessarily so. For instance, in a more critical case, in current generation fighters, is the data computed in separate federated processing incorporated in the radar not transmitted to the weapons control and mission computing systems in real time? In short use a high bandwidth data bus (with hardware and software protocols chosen out) and proper allocation of system resources and you can achieve similar results.

Also, the entire easy to upgrade, IMA is better stuff needs to be seen in context. If there is a fundamental issue with the IMA code, it will be much harder to fix than a federated system with discrete components spread out across different systems, as versus one single computing system with complex partitioning, multiple applications running on top of a virtualized layer making use of common hardware resources.

IMA is increasingly popular because it is a more efficient use of computing resources than federated systems. An avionics team can upgrade one system and keep its software current as versus worrying about the processing and software for multiple systems. It also promises centralized compute and weight/vol/power advantages.

Its easier said than done though, when the problem is that if something in the IMA goes wrong, the entire system is affected and the entire combat capability of the aircraft compromised.

In short, you have not proven any claims at all that the EF Typhoon AIS is somehow inferior significantly or otherwise to the Rafale.

We know for a fact that when the Swiss evaluation occurred, the Typhoon was a WIP product & it didn't have many critical systems available, and to some extent some remain to be added. Its your assumption that the Typhoon today is similarly so raw as to be much behind the Rafale.

By your own claims, the Americans would no doubt claim that the Rafale AESA is yet to mature as versus whatever is available on the US aircraft to make the former so "behind", without any proof whatsoever.

I await your exact details on how the Typhoon sensor fusion is significantly worse than that of the Rafales. Not handwaves please about how we must do your work for you to satisfy your overt bias in favor of the Rafale.
Last edited by Karan M on 25 Feb 2014 02:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Being interested in one thing, to abide to MRCA strict and clear bidding conditions (ToT, local manufacturing) is a different matter. An F35 purchase for India might be feasible but through an FMS procedure and that is not compliant with MRCA conditions. Given F35 current price tag, if hypothetically India decided to manufacture it and assuming the US would agree, the cost will be sky rocketing, probably dwarfing the price of the negotiated MRCA rafale deal.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

F-35 is available only via FMS. BUT, there is work share for sure.

And, even in the MMRCA competition the US was very clear about what techs India would and would not get.


BTW, why would anyone stop at track or federated stage? What does it take to go the extra mile, given that they have reached the tracked stage? After all it is simple computing power beyond that.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Karan M wrote:Arthuro, you are the one claiming Typhoon lacks sensor fusion, so you prove it. What an amusing way to debaye otherwise, first you state it, and then I must prove it for you?

And what is this MDPU and federated stuff and how does it support your point? More meaningless fluff. That you are quoting a forum participants personal view shows that you yourself are not exactly clear on all these details. If the Su-35 (f.e.) uses a federated system for better redundancy, more computing power, and is willing to trade off the increased weight, volume, LRU count for an overall better sensor fusion plus weapons management system, its their choice to make!

In short, this ("where the avionics structure is completely unified and a common API is used to access the hardware and network resources, thus simplifying the hardware and software integration") is correct in theory. The problems with the JSF code point out that theory sometimes meets reality in terms of difficult implementations (despite the experience on the F-22 CIP).

This ("Now the advantages of an IMA over the orthodox federated structure that we see in the Typhoon is that it allows for a complete overlay of all data collected from on-board and off-board sensors in real time") is not necessarily so. For instance, in a more critical case, in current generation fighters, is the data computed in separate federated processing incorporated in the radar not transmitted to the weapons control and mission computing systems in real time? In short use a high bandwidth data bus (with hardware and software protocols chosen out) and proper allocation of system resources and you can achieve similar results.

Also, the entire easy to upgrade, IMA is better stuff needs to be seen in context. If there is a fundamental issue with the IMA code, it will be much harder to fix than a federated system with discrete components spread out across different systems, as versus one single computing system with complex partitioning, multiple applications running on top of a virtualized layer making use of common hardware resources.

In short, you have not proven any claims at all that the EF Typhoon AIS is somehow inferior significantly or otherwise to the Rafale.

We know for a fact that when the Swiss evaluation occurred, the Typhoon was a WIP product & it didn't have many critical systems available, and to some extent some remain to be added. Its your assumption that the Typhoon today is similarly so raw as to be much behind the Rafale.

By your own claims, the Americans would no doubt claim that the Rafale AESA is yet to mature as versus whatever is available on the US aircraft to make the former so "behind", without any proof whatsoever.

I await your exact details on how the Typhoon sensor fusion is significantly worse than that of the Rafales. Not handwaves please about how we must do your work for you to satisfy your overt bias in favor of the Rafale.
I already showed the typhoon did not feature a true sensor fusion capability using the second round of swiss technical evaluation which took as a comparison planned upgrades of all Eurocanards for 2015. If sensor fusion was to be added for the typhoon, such a development would be known at that point (in 2009) and Typhoon Gmbh would certainly jump on that occasion to inflate typhoon score. I don't see were is the issue in understanding this ?

Second, if this feature was actually being developed now (again not mere sensor federation), you would already have heard about it (development etc). Any fighter manufacturer advertise the pros of its aircraft with abundant PR. It seems very doubtful that Eurofighter Gmbh would remain silent about this new capability given all the export campaigns it tooks part. It is a bit like if the Dassault did not communicate on rafale AESA.

For these two reasons I already pointed, I asked you to show me the evidences proving the opposite as all evidences are showing that the typhoon do not feature an advance sensor fusion capability but only a mere federation of sensors: At which standard such a capability would be introduced in the Typhoon (tranche, batch, drop)...When this capability has been cleared by partner nations ? What were the changes ?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Would this suffice:

Sensors
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