Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Aug 2012 14:55

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/gover ... 120826.htm

Addressing questions raised over the process of selecting Rafale fighter planes, the government is going ahead with the procurement of 126 French combat aircraft and efforts are being made to complete the deal within this financial year.

Contract negotiations for the multi-billion dollar deal will resume soon, government sources told PTI in New Delhi [ Images ].
Click here!

Questions had been raised over the process by a member of Parliament besides some other quarters but a committee of independent monitors has given a clean chit to the process, they said.

The government is making efforts to conclude the deal during this financial year, sources said.

The examination of the process was ordered by Defence Minister AK Antony after former MP Mysura Reddy questioned the method of selecting Rafale as the lowest bidder for the deal.

Responding to the charges levelled by him, Antony had recently issued a letter to the former Telugu Desam Party MP saying that the Contract Negotiations Committee has been directed to proceed to complete its deliberations and finalise its report.

In his letter to Reddy, Antony said, 'The issues raised by you were examined by independent monitors who have concluded that the approach and methodology adopted by the CNC in the evaluation of the commercial proposals thus far has been reasonable and appropriate and within terms of the Request for Proposal and Defence Procurement Procedure.

'Before any further action is taken, the entire issue of approach and methodology adopted by the CNC to determine the L-1 vendor as well as your letter and other references received in this regard will be re-examined by the defence ministry to ascertain that the entire procurement process is reasonable, appropriate and as per the laid down procedure,' Antony had said.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 26 Aug 2012 22:11

Government to procure 126 French Rafale combat jets

Addressing questions raised over the process of selecting Rafale fighter planes, the government is going ahead with the procurement of 126 French combat aircraft and effort is being made to complete the deal within this financial year.

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/curren ... 49400.html

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 26 Aug 2012 22:11

Vishal Jolapara wrote:August 12, 2012: Moscow - Zhukovsky

Go Katrina Go

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Aug 2012 01:19

I wish they negotiate for porting Kaveri and other parts as well for the future upgrades... meaning rights to replace engine all by ourselves without voiding license and contract.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 27 Aug 2012 09:14

can anyone here compare the m88 & kaveri in terms of dimensions & thrust ratio with mean time of failure

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Aug 2012 09:20

it would be same after the deal is signed, and the product comes out. dr. saraswat is just waiting for finalizing on the requirements [check youtube video of the interview], that T:w, etc.. are being determined so that the engine applies for LCA, AMCA, and other A/cs.. and the reason, I wanted the deal to merge with Rafale.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 27 Aug 2012 09:40

there is no news about further testing of kaveri on test bed or plans for putting it on lca

cant we get a Rafale & put one m88 & one kaveri for testing purpose can anyone comment on this idea
m88 will give the aircraft the stable engine for the flight & kaveri will be tested .

technologically is it possible i have seen some Russian fighter with two different engine can't find the picture though

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Aug 2012 07:24

IMR Aug issue reports that the deal signing is being delayed by "9 months" becasue HAL were late in meeting the deadline for "submitting their plan for financial and manufacturing tasks".The MOD has asked HAL to "focus on building airframes,engines and system and weapons integration of Rafale aircraft,rather than on meeting its portion of the $5.5B offset requirements as part of the deal".AKA has authorised the babus to finalise the deal within 3 months but because HAL have been unable to submit the license production plan,the extra 6 months delay will take place.

So who will be held accountable for the delay and inevitable cost escalation that Dassault will happily ask for? No one at all,as with the CWG,2-G,Coalgate scams-there will be "no loss" declared by Congress bean-counters!

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 30 Aug 2012 09:44

http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2012/08/i ... firms.html

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 30 Aug 2012 09:46

http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2012/08/w ... xcept.html

Another article, published in L'Usine Nouvelle, indicated that discussions are really going on, and well, though this may last for long. The article states that due to the high technological complexity of some of the Rafale's components, the aircraft should remain mainly built in France, for more than 50 percent of the production.

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 30 Aug 2012 12:28

Oh ! again !

“WE PAY FOR INDIA’S NAVY ” : Another Bizarre claim by UK Media

After Indian prime minister announced Mars mission in his 15 August Independence day speech , British media went all out war on India , claiming that Mars mission was using British provided £280million a year funds , it first started when UK lost the MMRCA tender to the French company , UK which is facing Economic slowdown but still went a head with Olympics but recent attack of British media (express.co.uk ) on recent purchase of Russian Warship by Indian navy has new heights of Ridiculousness .
......

saje · Post by **saje** » 30 Aug 2012 12:38

avinashpeter wrote:http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2012/08/i ... firms.html

The article states that due to the high technological complexity of some of the Rafale's components, the aircraft should remain mainly built in France, for more than 50 percent of the production.

Given that HAL has it's hands full, having 50% of the birds built in France should ensure that we get a majority of them on time.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 30 Aug 2012 13:04

Does this also mean we only get 50% TOT, if so this mean a breach in the rfp, original TOT minimum limit was at 60% and France was quickly claimining full-tot initially, now 50%, this is ridiculous. Even the US was matching 60% TOT clause. I hope they don't screw around with the TOT clause as this could lead to Rafale failing to finally ink the deal. As far as the deal is concerned only the first 18 should be built in France and over phases the entire production shifted to India by lets optimistically say around 2020.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 30 Aug 2012 13:12

It may not have any effect on % TOT. If news reports are to be believed, this story emanates from the fact that HAL, allegedly, has delayed submission of their plans for local build and therefore ToT. Speculation is, that to prevent any further delay and therfore ensure IAFs Sqn levels do not deplete, that 50% numbers will be in fly away form from France.

The % has no bearing on % ToT at all. Besides there was speculation that the # of Raffys would be in excess of the original 126.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 30 Aug 2012 13:57

What use is it to have TOT when half are made in France, thats 63 aircraft and by the time TOT occurs in stages only the last 10 will be made entirely in India. There is no need to make such a silly mistake. Until there is an indication of more orders as of now the order count remains at 126. Even if 200 are ordered only the last 3 squadrons will made in India entirely.

With all the delays already in this program, there is no harm in waiting a bit longer and have a sensible deal where complete TOT can occur by end of decade and atleast make a good 70% of the entire order in India.

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 30 Aug 2012 14:20

ToT can be useful even if we make a single aircraft at home. The no of aircraft built at home has nothing to do with ToT. ToT is essential for replicating the current aircraft and is as useful for 1 aircraft as is for 125.

We need ToT to improve our current aircraft as well as for future programs. Stuff like AESA radar, Spectra, sensor fusion, tight packaging will be extremely useful for LCA, FGFA, AMCA etc. Meanwhile, our babus can be busy extracting the last drop of technology that the French can spare.

The plan was to import 1-2 squadrons from France and build the rest in India. HAL is already an assembling behemoth and there is not much more to learn from building 90 Rafales vs 54 Rafales. We need to concentrate more on stuff that we don't have. We are already getting a decent workload in FGFA where HAL is the lead contractor. The things we need to look out for are French exclusive techs like their radar, avionics like Spectra, engines etc. Even if this tech comes within 20% ToT, it is much better than 60% ToT that includes technology we already have.

In short, percentages don't matter. It is the actual technology that does.

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 30 Aug 2012 14:40

If Rafale wants more share(say 50%) of the 126 order to be produced in France, India/HAL should push for full & complete production of the follow-on orders(if any planned & imho they will order atleast 60 more) which would help HAL scale up their tech know-how and also mature in the next gen production methods..because establishing a production line for 2-3 squadrons will never be profitable for HAL/India given the fact that the entire assy line is 1-2 generations ahead of what is being used for Su30/Hawk and would require substantial investment.

As far as TOT is concerned, IMHO 60% TOT will be done by France, because failing to do so will be violation of contractual terms and for sure there will be a big CAG report to follow and some nice moolah for our TV channels to keep shouting BREAKING NEWS(Irony is that, it would remain BREAKING news for days to come)

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 30 Aug 2012 15:15

AFAIK, the initial planes will be 100% manufactured in France. The initial deliveries from HAL will be from knocked down kits imported from France. Slowly, we will ramp up the Indian component in the Rafale and get close to 100%, The question is whether we can actually get close to that mythical 100%.

For that to happen, France will need to provide 100% ToT. In a realistic scenario, this won't happen. For ToT to benefit us, we need to squeeze in as much as important technology in the 60% that was promised to us. That includes all the secret goodies we don't get to hear in the public domain.

We could dangle the carrot of additional orders to extract more French tech!

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 31 Aug 2012 22:38

http://www.defencetalk.com/rafale-mmrca ... hes-44384/

German sources claim that there have been discussions between German and Indian officials on the issue and a re-worked offer for the Eurofighter Typhoon may be in the process of being finalized. For their part, Russian sources have claimed that there is strong likelihood of the tender for the MMRCA being re-floated by the Indian Government

Seems . . . unlikely.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 31 Aug 2012 23:52

If I may add some speculation.....

It would be very "un-Indian" to publically 'up' the Rafale order from 126 units to 200 units.
Even if this is indeed the plan (and I think that's likely, over the longer-term, judging by how the IAF added Su-30 MKIs); the last thing the IAF/MoD will do is announce those plans which will take so long to come to fruition. That would be like 'tipping your hand', and will likely ruffle the Chinese (and why give them that lead-time to build-out their counterveiling response?).

I suspect that number of 126 will be 'solid' for some time.

As for who builds what, where, and whether that's 50% or 60%............. Is that determination made by parts-cost? By machine hours? By weight? What are the implications of all this?

I'll tell you. The implications are industrial and military at the same time. I do believe that the entire purpose of ToT from a military standpoint is to ensure that the Rafales will be *indigenously serviceable* throughout their service life. This may mean that production facilities to be set up in India will be fully functional, if not fully utilized. Maybe full utilization of Indian-located production equipment will only come about after those 126 copies are flying with an IAF roundel painted on.

Would this be a tragedy?
No.
Why?
Consider: "Penny wise and pound foolish".

Also, no one can forget about force levels and the deficit below sanctionned strenght in the IAF. Therefore, speed of order build-out is also a factor. How much should that factor cost? That's an issue of threat perception.

IMHO, paying a little more for French-made parts may not be a tragedy, if they come more quickly than can be produced in India (owing to machine hour limitations); SO LONG AS THE ToT to produce that same part to the same spec is delivered to India.

India should receive the ToT to manufacture every single part that is currently made in France, OR OTHERWISE there should be ample stocks of spare parts delivered to India, that the French will not want produced elsewhere, along with the most solid assurances possible that *any additional parts supplies* will be sacrosanct, even in times of war, and even if nuclear deterrance has failed.

As a strategic consideration: This may warrant some kind of 'cooperation treaty' with the French; obligating them to deliver to India any spare parts that are needed to keep the Rafales flying. (I don't mean "guarantee", I mean promise to deliver.) I don't mean the French will have to 'FedEx'-overnight parts to India in times of war. I mean the French should deliver these parts to India themselves, directly, under the French flag and with French military escort if necessary. This would mean that anyone trying to intercept parts deliveries during times of war, will have to do so with force against the French. That would be the next-best-thing to full ToT, and for both industrial and military reasons, it may actually be the best possible solution. Certainly, it's something to consider. The French may actually like the idea very much (for their own reason$, no doubt).

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 01 Sep 2012 00:09

arijitkm wrote:Oh ! again !

“WE PAY FOR INDIA’S NAVY ” : Another Bizarre claim by UK Media

After Indian prime minister announced Mars mission in his 15 August Independence day speech , British media went all out war on India , claiming that Mars mission was using British provided £280million a year funds , it first started when UK lost the MMRCA tender to the French company , UK which is facing Economic slowdown but still went a head with Olympics but recent attack of British media (express.co.uk ) on recent purchase of Russian Warship by Indian navy has new heights of Ridiculousness .
......

Gem of comment-

The British ‘aid’ will hardly cover the annual ass-wipes for the Navy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Sep 2012 02:03

Has this been posted before in all its glory?

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 01 Sep 2012 02:11

thanks for this picture....simply awesome.....except the Air-Refuelling pod...need an internal one....

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Sep 2012 09:26

Karan! Awesome and many thanks.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Sep 2012 09:30

I liked the air-refuelling pod.. excellent addition for deep strikes.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 01 Sep 2012 11:32

SaiK wrote:I liked the air-refuelling pod.. excellent addition for deep strikes.

Sir i am all for air-refuelling pod .....just don't like the pod staying out all the time....
for additional stealth and looks

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Sep 2012 12:06

Glad you all liked it. The pod is a buddy refuelling pod, so it wouldnt be inside, and only carried on those missions where dedicated tankers are not available. A Rafale squadron will be very versatile.

Heres another very interesting pic! Best I have found so far.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Sep 2012 12:11

Sorry for the large image sizes, but did some digging around in Google Images and these really need to be seen life size!

RAFALE Sensor fusion

Rafale and TOT (probably a big factor in what swung the deal, though we'd be negotiating hard now to pin Dassault on the specifics)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-62kCY3TMfZ0/T ... 1600/5.jpg

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 01 Sep 2012 12:15

karan i'd like to send you a pm. searched for your email id on your profile here on br but could not. how may I contact you?

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Sep 2012 16:59

quote="arijitkm"]Oh ! again !

“WE PAY FOR INDIA’S NAVY ” : Another Bizarre claim by UK Media

After Indian prime minister announced Mars mission in his 15 August Independence day speech , British media went all out war on India , claiming that Mars mission was using British provided £280million a year funds , it first started when UK lost the MMRCA tender to the French company , UK which is facing Economic slowdown but still went a head with Olympics but recent attack of British media (express.co.uk ) on recent purchase of Russian Warship by Indian navy has new heights of Ridiculousness .
......

[/quote]

Gem of comment-

The British ‘aid’ will hardly cover the annual ass-wipes for the Navy.

[/quote]

OT but looks like Brits are going through kublers stages of acceptance.Maybe they are in denial and anger phase.But i am curious., there is quite a lot of chinese influence in british media.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Sep 2012 20:57

dhiraj wrote:
SaiK wrote:I liked the air-refuelling pod.. excellent addition for deep strikes.
Sir i am all for air-refuelling pod .....just don't like the pod staying out all the time....
for additional stealth and looks

I think we both are just expressing our likings is it not?

. How IAF is going to use it and for what purpose and when is left to mission requirements. Who knows, we might not need at all.. and for chippanda, we might not even think of deploying it and keep it for just for looks.

.

--

BTW, that uniform head up display for faster transition of head up and down is really a value addition.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Sep 2012 01:30

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Sep 2012 01:45

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Sep 2012 08:39

There is no doubt that the Rafale is a proven awesome fighter equipped with a bewildering menu of weaponry and ordnance to go with it.We made the right choice and the sooner the ink is signed on the deal the better.A few of the losers are still hoping for some miracle to get them back into contention given the low global aircraft arms sales today.But the yanquis,finding that negotiating the red tape and notorious Indian babudom is too torturous for them,and are winding up their large teams in India (today's news) lock,stock and barrel,as they have found that the majority of arms deals have come from direct govt-to-govt sales.

However,the usual delayed performance from the Indian side,HAL in this case,leaves one with the oft-experienced bitter taste in the mouth.Which is why right at the start I suggested that we acquire immediately upon announcing the winner and after signing the MOU/deal,the speedy induction of a sqd. or two two of existing aircraft from the user/manufacturer's stable,to be replaced at a later date with new aircraft conforming to the specs of the deal.This would've allowed faster training and induction and getting to grips with the issue of support and maintenance,ironing out problems experienced in the Indian context well before the final version to IAF specs was manufactured .Had this approach been adopted,we would've had the Rafale in service already,saving 3-4 years in time and making it truly become an interim strike fighter until the stealth FGFA arrives.With the delay in inducting the LCA continuing,why can't the MOD/IAF still adopt this method? It will help offset falling numbers as old MIGs are pensioned off.We did the same when we inducted the Su-30s,using two-seat Flankers and with successive tranches finally inducted the fully equipped MKI.If we could do this for the Russian bird,why not the same roadmap for the French filly?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Sep 2012 08:54

Did you just feed something into mysoora reddy's mouth? he will see every move as corrupt, 'cause that is the only word he knew & grew on [like many others].

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 02 Sep 2012 09:24

kit wrote:quote="arijitkm"]Oh ! again !

“WE PAY FOR INDIA’S NAVY ” : Another Bizarre claim by UK Media

After Indian prime minister announced Mars mission in his 15 August Independence day speech , British media went all out war on India , claiming that Mars mission was using British provided £280million a year funds , it first started when UK lost the MMRCA tender to the French company , UK which is facing Economic slowdown but still went a head with Olympics but recent attack of British media (express.co.uk ) on recent purchase of Russian Warship by Indian navy has new heights of Ridiculousness .
......

Gem of comment-

The British ‘aid’ will hardly cover the annual ass-wipes for the Navy.

[/quote]

OT but looks like Brits are going through kublers stages of acceptance.Maybe they are in denial and anger phase.But i am curious., there is quite a lot of chinese influence in british media.[/quote]

1. We sponsored there military campaigns & every wars payments since 1750's
2. Because of our Men's & Money they fought 2 world wars
3. We sponsored there Nuclear Bomb
4. We did buy all the junks they exported to us
5. We bought there Industries to save there people

can they match it with there peeeeeeeeeeenuts

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 02 Sep 2012 09:35

Interested in the MKIsation of the Rafale aspect, which is distinct from the "TOT deal" and "100% indigenous manufacture in say 5 years" goals

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 02 Sep 2012 09:53

HAL's reported delay of six months (as posted here), is a very disappointing piece of news.

I for one, have always been uncomfortable with our depleting force levels, related to the acquisition and delivery of much needed hardware, in all the three services. In the IAF, I have been a strong advocate of a 50 squadron strong IAF. The reason is simple. The possiblity of a two front confrontation. Even though it may not be an actual two front engagement, Pakis and the chinese are capable of orchestrating khujli on the other from while an engagement is taking place on one, obviously to deplete our resources further by splitting our attention

I would hope that the IAF and the MoD have a Plan B.

To me Plan B would consist of getting the following in place:

a) More Rafales being delivered in a fly away condition, some of them being "temporarily borrowed" from the current french fleet.
b) Ramp up the number of our technical personnel sent to France so that to a certain extent we reduce the dilution in our efforts to understand, imbibe, train and work on the manufacture of our batches of Rafales in France itself.
c) Those companies whith whom Dassault/THALES signs up for offsets, which may have a bearing on the inputs to the Rafale, should do the same with their manpower.

Sounds simplistci. But hey, the KISS principle, has better chances of succeeding.

aditya.agd · Post by **aditya.agd** » 02 Sep 2012 15:49

Never in favor of HAL or drdo to produce anything for India. Private sector and govt should fund them for only research. Production should be private sector responsibility.

member_23667 · Post by **member_23667** » 02 Sep 2012 18:23

Video from Dassault.Don't knew already posted.