Indian Army : News and Discussion

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chackojoseph
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 08:29

Peter,

Clearly for point a) you believe it is Anthony's fault.
For b) what stopped Anthony from ordering a CBI inquiry back then? If VKS disobeyed direct orders then Anthony is spineless as VKS should have been sacked. What you are saying is VKS disobeys a direct order, Anthony the defence minister is so helpless he cannot order a CBI inquiry eventhough his COAS is telling him that he was offered a 14 crore bribe! Now an year later the General himself goes to the press and Anthony orders the inquiry.

Do you see how preposterous your belief about Anthony's innocence is?
I hope you realize, as every one else has, that it is the General who took the matter to the press and not Anthony.

How on earth this is VKS's fault is beyond me.

Is it still not clear?


have already given my POV "repeatedly". If you cannot understand, let us skip this. You can indulge yourself. As I understand, you have no credible arguments to my POV and hence you are trying "I don't understand" line repeatedly. You are asking same questions again and again and again, and when replied, you pretend not understand.

So now are we to believe that Anthony did not sack VKS is a mark of his greatness? Or do you believe the version anthony is peddaling and you are believing may have holes in it? Like asking a question who brought this matter to the public? VKS or Anthony?

Ask yourself why would a defence minister sit on a report of a 14 crore bribe to his COAS from his COAS.


Where did sacking question come up? Where did you invent this from? the minister sitting on a report? which report? a verbal report that COAS would not act upon?

Nonsense. This is foot in the mouth. If India really had an honest investigative system then it would be clear why Anthony sat on his back side and did nothing. Come on how can an honest defence minster sleep when he knows that his COAS has been offered a bribe of 14 crores? Especially if the same COAS , as you assert, disobeyed a direct order. This should have been an even stronger reason to launch a CBI probe.


Do you know the definition of 'foot in mouth'? Can you explain how this situation is foot in mouth?

No selective reading. You are highly biased in your assessment of Anthony for reasons best known to you.

Anthony is not consistent in his behavior. People of integrity are very consistent in their behavior.


This is your personal opinion. I have noted it "repeatedly" and disagree.

Up until the point of your above quote, you were misinformed and could have entertained the view that VKS allowed the loot. Once it was pointed out that VKS cancelled the contract immediately and thus there was no loot for two years, your assertion of equal blame should have fallen to the ground. But perhaps you did not want to back down from your public position.


The information was not available and when i was told i understood. I will "repeat" this "VKS has done a good job which is my first even post about this whole matter. Go back and read.

I still believe that AK Antony is an honest defence minister and VKS an honest Army chief. In addition to his fault in this situation, it is as much fault of VKS.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 29 Mar 2012 09:06

Prem Kumar wrote:
shiv wrote:er if the Army chief says that the army is in a sorry state and needs help and members of parliament say that the army chief should be dismissed for saying that, does it mean that the army chief is wrong about the army and that MPs know better about how the army is?

Lets hear some names of MPS who have said that so that we can serially remove their chaddis and post images.


Lets cross reference this MP list with the 162 murderers, looters & rapists who grace our Parliament!


How did you come to this number of 162? care explaining?

And, why are you accepting them to be your leaders, and among others in the billion.
Why would anyone vote for such people have you thought about? Think, only lion can lead a lion pack, but that is not a standard pattern say for example - donkeys. OT: BTW, I haven't seen any donkey in a pack being lead by another.

What I am saying is, this blame is a b^2 for electing them. so blame (y)ourselves.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 29 Mar 2012 09:16

Despite my many detractors,I agree with Chacko ansd others on the fact that Gen.VKS is personally honest and so is AKA.However,the good general in my opinion has shown very poor judgement,tactics and even and naivety by not putting in black and white matters relating to his DOB assurances from his superiors and the alleged bribe over the Tatra trucks. St.Anthony has been a dismal "zero" when it came to energising the MOD,getting it off its backside in meeting the demands of the services,seeking out corruption-even when it was placed on a platter to him by Gen.VKS,all he did was bury his face in his hands! He is the epitome of Edmund Burke's words.This "ostrich" like attitude by the UPA-2 ,has been an unmitigated disaster.AKA actually had a golden opportunity to sweep out the cobwebs and parasites in the MOD given his personal clean reputation,but did nothing.

Presiding over this debacle has been the august presence of the ruling UPA-2 "witchdoctor",MMS! His medicine,"do nothing,let the disease run its course",killing the patient slowly,"why go the chaemo route?",seems to have been his mantra.Thus 2-G,CWG,Antrix-Devas,coal-gate,and the defence scams from land,Adarsh,and the latest revelations,have all come home to roost.A hurt and shafted Gen.VKS,and/or his supporters,appear to have opted for the "Samson option".If the GOI now sack him,he will join Adm.Bhagwat as a true martyr.As long as he is in his chair,every hour will prove a very painful reminder to them of their failings.To now run to parliament and assure that house that everything will be done for the IA/forces is a weak and open acknowledgement that nothing was done and vindicates Gen.VKS's letter.

Now that pandora's box has been opened,a full and thorough spring-cleaning must take place and the Opposition must not be found wanting at this critical juncture.The truth about Tatra,helos,etc. must be followed to the last detail and this should also NOT delay further the needs of the forces.Adm.Bhagwat yesterday on telly had a very important point to make,about the role of the CAG in examining the evidence.It has been the CAG and SC who have truly unearthed the nest of vipers and scorpions who have bled the nation dry through their greed and selfishness.Their role will be crucial in the coming days.RIP UPA-2.

Bharat Karnad in the DC has a lot to say.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/columnis ... 0%99s-tale

A sting in the general’s tale

March 29, 2012

It is hard to say when it is that the military stopped being the paragon of propriety in a social milieu increasingly bereft of basic values that people once saw reflected in the men in olive green (or in Air Force blue and Navy white), such as honour and honesty. There are still many officers of the old school for whom military is a career, yes, but also an orderly world of do’s and don’ts.

There have been service chiefs who after demitting office rode bicycles because that’s all they could afford (Adm. R.L. Periera), or repaired without fuss to small, apartments because anything grander their pensions wouldn’t allow (Adm. Vishnu Bhagwat). But the officer cohorts that produced a Periera or a Bhagwat also threw up service chiefs — no names, please, they have law on their side! — verily Kubla Khans who have built pleasure domes, allegedly on a service chief’s salary and pension.

The Chief of Army Staff, Gen. V.K. Singh, has blown the lid off the comfortable milieu senior military brass cocoon themselves in, where every whim quite literally is a command, revealing just how dirty military life has become, how much corruption has seeped into cantonment life. Of course, there were always officers from the support arms in the Army — the service corps and ordnance corps — who were known for accumulating wealth at the exchequer’s expense. Gen. Singh actually hinted at a conspiracy of Rs 14 crores being dangled as bait by retired officers he identifies as “the Adarsh lobby” in the hopes of implicating him in a bribery scandal. What the Army Chief’s revelations have done is loosening the dirt lining the military acquisitions system, permitting the muck and the scum to float to the top. Now all the rumours one heard about payouts to senior officers over the years can be freely aired.

Over time, one has heard hearsay accounts, for instance, of a system of “under the table” payments by consortia of contractors to officers assuming the highest commands. Thus, an appointee to an Army commander’s post was richer, one was told a decade back, by Rs 3-4 crores. Today the sum may be a multiple of this figure. It’s not clear, however, whether this is a one-time booty or recurring prize-money. The trouble is these sorts of payoffs have come to be viewed by many in Army circles as perquisites. In like vein, pelf at lower level is tolerated as an “equalisation” measure relative to politicians and civil servants who routinely siphon off public funds.

The rot is wide and deep and spreading fast. What Gen. Singh has put his finger on are the vendors, mostly foreign, of weapon systems, spares and service support either directly or through Defence Public Sector factories, involved in assembling imported systems or licensed production, who prop up this system of corruption. With the expenditure on acquisitions rocketing, so have the competitive stakes for foreign Companies, DPSUs (Defence Public Sector Undertaking), and Indian private firms entering the defence business. Consequently, more and more officers up and down the military acquisitions line — in the weapons and quality control directorates, units tasked with testing and short-listing, and in price negotiation committees — are tempted, and many succumb.

The Congress government’s initial response was remarkable for its insouciance and near indifference — the Army Chief should have lodged an FIR. Par for the course, one supposes, for a political party that during its long years in office first perfected and then institutionalised corruption. Defence minister A.K. Antony defended himself in Parliament saying Gen. Singh informed him about the attempted bribery over 16 months ago all right but was remiss in not following up with a written complaint without which, the minister lamented, he couldn’t proceed. Why does that ring false?

For one thing because Mr Antony has turned his programme to root out corruption into a fetish, and someone so concerned with cleansing his ministry surely should not have stood on formalities. In the event, he neither reminded the Army Chief to send his charge in writing nor ordered an investigation, which he could have done. Instead, he waited until now when the story broke and the leads may have gone cold, to bring the CBI into the picture. Was this Mr Antony’s Plan B if all this ever came to light?

In the wake of a tsunami of wrongs in the military, it is time to initiate two major reforms before it is too late. One is to institute “deep selection” of service chiefs — that is, all lieutenant general-rank officers completing two years in that rank be eligible for consideration. This widening of the selection pool will at once weed out those who have advanced in their careers with only seniority to recommend them, leading to just too many duds as service chiefs. This will also incentivise an entire cohort to strengthen their records with genuine achievements rather than coasting in their last few tenures, and prevent “succession planning” by unscrupulous former Army Chiefs as has happened in the case of the designated successor to Gen. Singh.

The other measure is to routinely do thorough background checks of not just the candidates for appointments to corps commander level up, but also their immediate families. It will prevent persons from becoming Army Chiefs, like the one who not too long ago held this post and was known for shedding tears usually for the camera, adorning his golf cart with the four stars of his rank, and deploying a large contingent of soldiers from his parent infantry unit at his residence to help run his wife’s textile fashions and export business. With such a man in the chief’s saddle, what message would have been conveyed to military officers except “misuse your position to the max”?

The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi.

Last edited by Philip on 29 Mar 2012 09:17, edited 1 time in total.

Sri
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Sri » 29 Mar 2012 09:16

Manish_Sharma wrote:
You and fellow christian chackojoseph are all out to support your fellow christian ak antony.

Even if this gets me banned, I'm saying you and chacko are only being 'christians' and not nationalists!


Back off Manish Ji. I know many Christians who are true blue patriots. Chacko Ji is one one of them even though we have had a little disagreement on 'Off Topic Thread' I vouch for him.

But I am still perplexed on AKA.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 29 Mar 2012 09:19

Another viewpoint from the DC.

Gunrunners & Sons
March 29, 2012

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/editoria ... s-sons-589

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 29 Mar 2012 09:40

Philip wrote:personally honest and so is AKA


ha ha ha...now a days it sounds whenever anyone uses the words 'personally honest', it is like saying, personally he is honest but to the institution he heads we have no idea or worst we can't extend the same trust.

That's what 'personally honest' means, which you exemplified in your post by elaborating on the role of AKA.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Mar 2012 09:45

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120329/j ... 3PfFdn4Vac
General reduced to guerrilla
-"Army chief virtually deactivated as leaked letter to PM opens fresh flank
SUJAN DUTTA
New Delhi, March 28: The government is seeing a “rogue” general in its army chief.
Like Barack Obama in the US who sacked his chief of Afghanistan operations, “runaway” Gen. Stanley McChrystal in May last year, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is seeing a general warring on Raisina Hill.
For two days in a row, defence minister A.K. Antony has had to defend himself in Parliament for actions of the army chief — the latest being the leak of a letter that Gen. V.K. Singh wrote to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh pointing out critical shortages in the military arsenal.
The CBI is now set to question both the army chief and the defence minister.
In the defence ministry, a quiet word has been sent to officials to virtually cease all advice and communication with the army chief whose actions the government is finding consistently embarrassing.
To us, he is the chief of army staff. He should be able to decide for himself what is good and what is bad,” a senior defence ministry official said this afternoon after Antony spoke in Parliament.
The government has not accused the army chief of leaking the letter that Antony said was “top secret” but officials in the defence ministry and politicians Lalu Prasad and Shivanand Tiwari have insinuated that he leaked the letter.
Lalu Prasad (RJD) and Tiwari (JD-U) have also demanded that Gen. V.K. Singh be sacked.
Buoyed by the political support in the Rajya Sabha, the government may well be tempted to. In the US, Obama sacked the decorated Stanley McChrystal last year because of the general’s intemperate remarks on politicians and bureaucrats that were quoted in Rolling Stone magazine. Gen. V.K. Singh has done no such thing, except of course that he had taken the government to court. But his words have hurt the government no less.
The calendar for the near future is full of public occasions for both the defence minister and the army chief in which they will interact with the media and/or speak in Parliament. The army chief is also scheduled to give interviews to news outfits over the next few days.
The ministry-hosted prestigious event, Defexpo (an exhibition of weapons and systems for land and naval warfare and internal security), is to be inaugurated by Antony tomorrow. Antony is also scheduled to address a media conference after the inaugural.
The chiefs of the army, navy and air force, delegations from as many as 15 countries and representatives of global defence companies would be thronging New Delhi for the four-day event. Defexpo 2012 is also being held concurrently with the Brics summit for which the heads of government of four countries are in the capital.
In the middle of this international gathering, the focus is, however, on the army chief and his continuing tussle with the government.
In the letter that he wrote to the Prime Minister on March 12, Gen. V.K. Singh said the army’s air defence capabilities were eroded because the missiles were outdated.
There isn’t enough ammunition for the army’s night-blind tanks and the special forces lack the equipment for their missions. In effect, the army chief said, that for a country that has potential adversaries on two fronts in Pakistan and China, India’s military is too impoverished........."
Gautam

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Mar 2012 09:55

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120329/j ... 3Pijdn4Vac
Scary but breach of discipline, says BJP
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
"New Delhi, March 28: Most BJP leaders said in private they wanted Gen. V.K. Singh “sacked” as army chief over his letter to the Prime Minister, echoing the Janata Dal (United), Samajwadi Party and the RJD.
They recalled with glee how the NDA’s former defence minister, George Fernandes, summarily got rid of his navy chief, Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, for allegedly violating service norms. “At the first sign of a challenge to the political executive, the minister decided that enough is enough and the navy chief should go. Nobody in the UPA government has that kind of steely resolve,” a source said.
Publicly, though, the BJP insisted the general should not be thrown out. “We do not share the view that he should be sacked,” spokesperson Ravi Shankar Prasad said.
Lok Sabha Opposition leader Sushma Swaraj adopted a calibrated position that was equally critical of the army chief and defence minister A.K. Antony and emphasised the need to protect the “equilibrium” between the armed forces and the civilian command. “The contents of the army chief’s letter are scary. When the common person reads that the defence forces have no ammunition and cannot defend the country, he finds it scary.”
Sushma argued that the letter amounted to “breach of discipline” because it “revealed the ire at the differences between the army and the ministry”. “The decision to write a letter is always fraught with the possibility, even if one per cent, that it may be leaked at some point in time.”
The Opposition leader also wondered why the general did not immediately get the officer, who allegedly offered him a Rs 14-crore bribe to renew a truck deal, arrested.
Off the record, sources said that what had “raised the hackles” of the political class was the general’s apparent bid to drag Antony into the row. “People can fault him (Antony) for indecision, lack of dynamism. But nobody can raise a finger on Antony’s integrity. He is honest to a fault. So if the general even tangentially wants to drag the minister in a graft case, he will not gain our sympathy or support,” a BJP MP said......."
Gautam

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Sri » 29 Mar 2012 09:58

Gen VK Singh fires one more salvo

The Indian Express reports that Gen VK Singh has forwarded to the CBI a complaint against Lt Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag, the serving 3 Corps Commander and other top Army officers, that had been made out by Ambika Banerjee, a Trinamool Congress MP in a letter to the Army chief in May 2011.

In that letter, Banerjee had pointed to widespread “procurement scams” in the “secretive” Special Frontier Force (SFF), a paramilitary unit comprising Tibetan refugees that was established after the 1962 war with China to conduct covert operations behind Chinese lines in the event of another war. Also known as Establishment 22, the SFF operates under RAW, India’s external intelligence agency.
The letter is a virtual live grenade, and makes damaging allegations of corruption against specific Army officers (who have been named), including a former Army chief. Banerjee alleges that the former Army chief received crores of rupees in kickbacks for defence procurements and had acquired assets disproportionate to his known sources of income.

According to the Indian Express report, Banerjee further alleged in the letter that during the time that Lt Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag served as Inspector-General of the SFF, there had been

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Mar 2012 09:58

http://www.samachar.com/Army-Chief-row- ... dhefg.html
Army Chief row: Pressure on PM to intervene
"Defence minister AK Antony and Army Chief General VK Singh who are at loggerheads, will come face to face at the Defence Expo on Thursday. A letter written by the General to the Prime Minister's Office claiming shortcomings in defence preparedness was leaked to the media evoking sharp reactions from the government as well as former Army officers. Pressure is now building on the Prime Minister to intervene.
Former Army chiefs have called for a full probe into the source of the leakage of the letter and General VK Singh's claims. "They have to find out that where these leaks are occurring, who is leaking them. Is there an espionage inside in the Army headquarters? We do not know the answers to any of these questions and they have to be inquired into very seriously," General (Retired) Shankar Roy Chowdhury said.
Lt General (Retired) Raj Kadyan added, "A privilege communication between an Army Chief and the Prime Minister is a very serious matter and needs to be investigated."
Meanwhile, there was furore in Parliament over the leaked letter with members demanding to know not just the source of the leakage but the contents of the letter too, questioning the security preparedness of the country. "We will take an appropriate action, we're doing everything to plug the leaks," a defiant Defence Minister Antony said......."
Gautam

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 29 Mar 2012 09:59

Thanks Philip for bringing this for our attention.

I don't know, I can see that all the points which I feel strongly are listed out by BK here.

================================
Bharat Karnad in the DC has a lot to say.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/columnis ... 0%99s-tale

A sting in the general’s tale

March 29, 2012

It is hard to say when it is that the military stopped being the paragon of propriety in a social milieu increasingly bereft of basic values that people once saw reflected in the men in olive green (or in Air Force blue and Navy white), such as honour and honesty. There are still many officers of the old school for whom military is a career, yes, but also an orderly world of do’s and don’ts.

There have been service chiefs who after demitting office rode bicycles because that’s all they could afford (Adm. R.L. Periera), or repaired without fuss to small, apartments because anything grander their pensions wouldn’t allow (Adm. Vishnu Bhagwat). But the officer cohorts that produced a Periera or a Bhagwat also threw up service chiefs — no names, please, they have law on their side! — verily Kubla Khans who have built pleasure domes, allegedly on a service chief’s salary and pension.

The Chief of Army Staff, Gen. V.K. Singh, has blown the lid off the comfortable milieu senior military brass cocoon themselves in, where every whim quite literally is a command, revealing just how dirty military life has become, how much corruption has seeped into cantonment life. Of course, there were always officers from the support arms in the Army — the service corps and ordnance corps — who were known for accumulating wealth at the exchequer’s expense. Gen. Singh actually hinted at a conspiracy of Rs 14 crores being dangled as bait by retired officers he identifies as “the Adarsh lobby” in the hopes of implicating him in a bribery scandal. What the Army Chief’s revelations have done is loosening the dirt lining the military acquisitions system, permitting the muck and the scum to float to the top. Now all the rumours one heard about payouts to senior officers over the years can be freely aired. [One def. good thing that came out of this episode is tearing of Holy Cow attitude shown towards Army and particularly of officers in high post. It only protected culprits and wannabe culprits by enforcing such attitude by various means. Even in this forum, even to talk about, we have pass through 'show evidence' brigade.]

Over time, one has heard hearsay accounts, for instance, of a system of “under the table” payments by consortia of contractors to officers assuming the highest commands. Thus, an appointee to an Army commander’s post was richer, one was told a decade back, by Rs 3-4 crores. Today the sum may be a multiple of this figure. It’s not clear, however, whether this is a one-time booty or recurring prize-money. The trouble is these sorts of payoffs have come to be viewed by many in Army circles as perquisites. In like vein, pelf at lower level is tolerated as an “equalisation” measure relative to politicians and civil servants who routinely siphon off public funds.

The rot is wide and deep and spreading fast[as SaiK, member, mentioned in another post, it is to such level that only breakthrough could be all are seen guilty until proven innocent]. What Gen. Singh has put his finger on are the vendors, mostly foreign, of weapon systems, spares and service support either directly or through Defence Public Sector factories, involved in assembling imported systems or licensed production, who prop up this system of corruption. With the expenditure on acquisitions rocketing, so have the competitive stakes for foreign Companies, DPSUs (Defence Public Sector Undertaking), and Indian private firms entering the defence business. Consequently, more and more officers up and down the military acquisitions line — in the weapons and quality control directorates, units tasked with testing and short-listing, and in price negotiation committees — are tempted, and many succumb.

The Congress government’s initial response was remarkable for its insouciance and near indifference — the Army Chief should have lodged an FIR. Par for the course, one supposes, for a political party that during its long years in office first perfected and then institutionalised corruption. Defence minister A.K. Antony defended himself in Parliament saying Gen. Singh informed him about the attempted bribery over 16 months ago all right but was remiss in not following up with a written complaint without which, the minister lamented, he couldn’t proceed. Why does that ring false?

For one thing because Mr Antony has turned his programme to root out corruption into a fetish, and someone so concerned with cleansing his ministry surely should not have stood on formalities. In the event, he neither reminded the Army Chief to send his charge in writing nor ordered an investigation, which he could have done. Instead, he waited until now when the story broke and the leads may have gone cold, to bring the CBI into the picture. Was this Mr Antony’s Plan B if all this ever came to light?[Wah, Whah! do we need anymore discussion?]

In the wake of a tsunami of wrongs in the military, it is time to initiate two major reforms before it is too late. One is to institute “deep selection” of service chiefs — that is, all lieutenant general-rank officers completing two years in that rank be eligible for consideration. This widening of the selection pool will at once weed out those who have advanced in their careers with only seniority to recommend them, leading to just too many duds as service chiefs. This will also incentivise an entire cohort to strengthen their records with genuine achievements rather than coasting in their last few tenures, and prevent “succession planning” by unscrupulous former Army Chiefs as has happened in the case of the designated successor to Gen. Singh.

The other measure is to routinely do thorough background checks of not just the candidates for appointments to corps commander level up, but also their immediate families. It will prevent persons from becoming Army Chiefs, like the one who not too long ago held this post and was known for shedding tears usually for the camera, adorning his golf cart with the four stars of his rank, and deploying a large contingent of soldiers from his parent infantry unit at his residence to help run his wife’s textile fashions and export business. With such a man in the chief’s saddle, what message would have been conveyed to military officers except “misuse your position to the max”? :rotfl: [such is our democracy]

The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi.

[/quote]

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby suryag » 29 Mar 2012 10:00

Now it all makes sense why one particular chief wanted a line of succession. It was needed to prevent anyone from digging up dirt on the previous chiefs' decisions

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 29 Mar 2012 10:14

suryag wrote:Now it all makes sense why one particular chief wanted a line of succession. It was needed to prevent anyone from digging up dirt on the previous chiefs' decisions

Even in such cases, you are only half right. These Chiefs are only can be equated to 'guest appearance' role for the great movie, whose real Hero/producer/director are someone else.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 10:24

Kanson wrote:For one thing because Mr Antony has turned his programme to root out corruption into a fetish, and someone so concerned with cleansing [b]his ministry surely should not have stood on formalities. In the event, he neither reminded the Army Chief to send his charge in writing nor ordered an investigation, which he could have done. Instead, he waited until now when the story broke and the leads may have gone cold, to bring the CBI into the picture. Was this Mr Antony’s Plan B if all this ever came to light?[/b][Wah, Whah! do we need anymore discussion?]


The writer is preaching anarchy. Why the formalities should be ignored? Isn't the government all about formalities. One of the successes of AKA has been able to work with formalities and streamlining the procedures.

If Antony goes beyond formalities he should do it in exigencies, like national emergencies etc. otherwise, the entire system will be doomed.

We do not want rouge ministers in India.

AKA can be accused of omission, but not anything else. The writer is insane

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 29 Mar 2012 10:26

To highlight the matter raised by nelson,


nelson wrote:Before letter to PM, Army Chief had written to Antony on 10 issues that are degrading army capability.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gen-v ... y/919778/0

The same was reported on this thread and adjacent ones too.

viewtopic.php?p=1251326#p1251326

viewtopic.php?p=1251439#p1251439

Quote from the article
The detailed letter sent last month points out 10 critical issues that the Army has been pushing for the past two years, which need to be addressed urgently to regain the combat edge of the force.



I'm adding my 2 bits...

viewtopic.php?p=1251416#p1251416

Knowledgeable people should keep list of deals approved during VKS tenure. It will come handy to compare, contrast and judge on how fast procurements will be approved during Bikram Singh period and the size & value of such deals which coincide with the period leading to next Parl election.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 29 Mar 2012 10:33

CJ, The edifice of clean is crumbling due to selective inaction. Operational readiness has been sacrificed at the altar of cleanliness. Not to mention officer cadre has been ravaged.

You dont need a war to do such damage when you have such leaders.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 29 Mar 2012 10:43

chackojoseph wrote:
Kanson wrote:For one thing because Mr Antony has turned his programme to root out corruption into a fetish, and someone so concerned with cleansing [b]his ministry surely should not have stood on formalities. In the event, he neither reminded the Army Chief to send his charge in writing nor ordered an investigation, which he could have done. Instead, he waited until now when the story broke and the leads may have gone cold, to bring the CBI into the picture. Was this Mr Antony’s Plan B if all this ever came to light?[/b][Wah, Whah! do we need anymore discussion?]


The writer is preaching anarchy. Why the formalities should be ignored? Isn't the government all about formalities. One of the successes of AKA has been able to work with formalities and streamlining the procedures.

If Antony goes beyond formalities he should do it in exigencies, like national emergencies etc. otherwise, the entire system will be doomed.

We do not want rouge ministers in India.

AKA can be accused of omission, but not anything else. The writer is insane


Chacko sir, you are mixing two unrelated things by context in the name of formalities, like the same way you mixed judgement and integrity.

You use integrity of AKA to support the judgement of AKA in your previous post. Integrity comes into equation only when we try ascribe motives to his judgement. At present, everyone in this forum as well as Opposition parties in Parliament are only taking about whether his judgement is bad or worse.

To give you one more example, whenever Opposition raises some questions, congress idiots who often appears as spokesperson on TV talkshows quickly blurb, MMS being very upright and honest there is no such thing happened. Can you catch the difference? Right and wrong can happen even if you are a honest person. In my view, by mistake, you have done the same things by mixing integrity and judgement.

Same way, formalities are only means to achieve your goal. If your goal is to root out corruption by any means which is what AKA through media organs was/is saying so long, then why worry about formalities for such grievous matters. What is more important, formalities or the goal ?

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 10:54

His judgement was wrong. Even AKA has said that it was his judgement and punish him if he is wrong. he did not say reward him if He is right.

Judgement is write or wrong, the argument that he should not have followed "formalities" is insane. This is anarchy.

Kason, this is not a point against your argument. This writer is mad.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Jaybhatt » 29 Mar 2012 10:58

Some Background Material on Ravi Rishi and his Shenanigans

It appears this has not been posted on this forum.

http://www.ceskapozice.cz/en/business/c ... llegations

This URL leads us to the publication that contains the full article. However, the full article cannot be accessed without a subscription.

Here is the full article :

QUOTE
27 APRIL 2012

Tatra faces tunneling and tax evasion allegations

Anonymous plaintiff accuses the major owner and management of Tatra truck maker of tunneling profits and tax evasion
The management and a major shareholder in the iconic Czech truck producer Tatra face a criminal complaint for allegedly failing to ensure proper oversight of assets. The anonymous plaintiff claims that the sale of truck parts at knock-down prices to India via an intermediary British company has damaged the company.
Václav Láska, a former high-ranking police investigator, lawyer and one-time head of the local branch of watchdog Transparency International, has lodged a criminal complaint against the management of Tatra trucks and one of the firm’s major shareholders, Indian businessman Ravinder Kumar Rishi, on behalf of plaintiffs who wish to remain anonymous due to fears of “labor persecution,” the daily Právo reported on Wednesday.

Vectra allegedly profits from Tatra's loss

Since 2005, Tatra has supplied so-called complete knock-down kits (CKD), containing all the components of haulage Láska claims that between 2005 and 2010 Tatra lost profits of around Kč 270 milliontrucks to the Indian state-owned firm Beml Limited, which then assembles the vehicles in India. The transactions have been conducted through British-registered intermediary firm Vectra Limited, which, according to the charges, has frequently purchased the CKD kits at below production cost, thus causing losses to the Czech company running into millions of crowns.

“The Tatra company sells kits to the British company Vectra Limited without a profit margin, and even at prices lower than the cost of manufacturing. All margins from this business, i.e. all profits from these transactions, go only to the accounts of the British company,” Láska told Právo. “The fact that the representatives of Tatra allow these transactions clearly contradicts the principles of sound economic governance.”

Láska claims that between 2005 and 2010 Tatra lost around Kč 270 million in potential profit. The calculation is based on a profit margin of 10 percent per kit, which he says the management intentionally forfeited in order to sell the goods to Vectra Limited at a knock-down price. Láska also says that through the transactions the company also avoided paying tens of millions of crowns in tax.

“By transferring the considerable profits to the British company, the Tatra company reduced its income tax payments by tens of millions of crowns,” Láska said.

Alleged misuse of information

Ravinder Kumar Rishi, deputy chairman of Tatra’s supervisory board, is also the owner of Vectra Limited and thus de facto represents both Tatra and Vectra in business negotiations — and the transactions in question. According to Láska, Ravinder Kumar Rishi may have misused information in these business relations.

In 2010, Tatra supplied 600 CKD kits to the Indian company Beml — which assembles the trucks and has large orders with the Indian army — and according to Láska, Tatra has committed to deliver a further 460 kits this year. “If the criminal complaint is deemed to be justified, steps could be taken which will curtail further losses and also stop additional tax evasion,” Láska told Právo

UNQUOTE

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Mar 2012 11:01

chackojoseph wrote:We do not want rouge ministers in India.

Sorry to quibble, but you surely mean "rogue"!
Gautam

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Mar 2012 11:03

g.sarkar wrote:http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120329/jsp/nation/story_15308947.jsp#.T3Pijdn4Vac
Scary but breach of discipline, says BJP
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
"New Delhi, March 28: Most BJP leaders said in private they wanted Gen. V.K. Singh “sacked” as army chief over his letter to the Prime Minister, echoing the Janata Dal (United), Samajwadi Party and the RJD.
They recalled with glee how the NDA’s former defence minister, George Fernandes, summarily got rid of his navy chief, Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat, for allegedly violating service norms. “At the first sign of a challenge to the political executive, the minister decided that enough is enough and the navy chief should go. Nobody in the UPA government has that kind of steely resolve,” a source said.
Publicly, though, the BJP insisted the general should not be thrown out. “We do not share the view that he should be sacked,” spokesperson Ravi Shankar Prasad said.
Lok Sabha Opposition leader Sushma Swaraj adopted a calibrated position that was equally critical of the army chief and defence minister A.K. Antony and emphasised the need to protect the “equilibrium” between the armed forces and the civilian command. “The contents of the army chief’s letter are scary. When the common person reads that the defence forces have no ammunition and cannot defend the country, he finds it scary.”
Sushma argued that the letter amounted to “breach of discipline” because it “revealed the ire at the differences between the army and the ministry”. “The decision to write a letter is always fraught with the possibility, even if one per cent, that it may be leaked at some point in time.”
The Opposition leader also wondered why the general did not immediately get the officer, who allegedly offered him a Rs 14-crore bribe to renew a truck deal, arrested.
Off the record, sources said that what had “raised the hackles” of the political class was the general’s apparent bid to drag Antony into the row. “People can fault him (Antony) for indecision, lack of dynamism. But nobody can raise a finger on Antony’s integrity. He is honest to a fault. So if the general even tangentially wants to drag the minister in a graft case, he will not gain our sympathy or support,” a BJP MP said......."
Gautam


THis is pure psy-ops. All private quotes of BJP members. Never we will hear a private quote from INC leaders praising BJP members. All this is to say, see even BJP can't find fault with this Govt and is obsufating the issue.

This kind rubbish journalism can be best ignored. Everything in the media in this country is now seen as good for INC, Bad of INC and nothing else.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 29 Mar 2012 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 11:04

Jaybhatt wrote:Some Background Material on Ravi Rishi and his ShenanigansIn 2010, Tatra supplied 600 CKD kits to the Indian company Beml — which assembles the trucks and has large orders with the Indian army — and according to Láska, Tatra has committed to deliver a further 460 kits this year. “If the criminal complaint is deemed to be justified, steps could be taken which will curtail further losses and also stop additional tax evasion,” Láska told Právo
UNQUOTE


Thank You Jaybhatt. This is information. This explains attempt to bribe. he has supplied and is struck with inventory?

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 29 Mar 2012 11:08

A question is being raised, why didnt the Army chief take action on his own and why did he have to go public. The bribe offer incident in question supposedly happened about two months ago, as per Jaswant Singhs article (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gover ... e/929622/0). Now, the govt. went out and declared Vikram Singh to be the official successor around the start of the year, and all official files started to be routed through his office. The question is, would VK Singh get the departmental go ahead to move against Lt Gen Tejinder Singh, with Lt Gen Vikram Singh in charge? Its possible the general went public when he realized that regardless of how hard he tried, there would not be any movement in the issue.

All said and done, I personally have no confidence in JJ Singh, Deepak Kapoor, Vikram Singh, Tejinder Singh and Dalbir Singh.. I am afraid, the army needs to go through a thorough house cleaning. We are looking at incompetence of 1962 levels.

No arty, tin can tanks, no air defense, and now - sub standard trucks..

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby SRoy » 29 Mar 2012 11:10

^^
Aditya_V

Don't bank too much on BJP wallahs. Birds of the same feather. Read Jaitely's and Swaraj's statement. Why are they pointing fingers at the Army / COAS for the leak? Have they asked the PM as how the leak happened? Or have they enquired the reason for poor state of preparadness? Is this not also the party that also boasts of largest number ex-servicemen (so no dearth of advisors in security issues)?

Sorry for OT post, but this party has lost my support after the VKS incident. No more voting them.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 11:21

g.sarkar wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:We do not want rouge ministers in India.

Sorry to quibble, but you surely mean "rogue"!
Gautam


Yes. Spells arise as I multitask.

ramana wrote:CJ, The edifice of clean is crumbling due to selective inaction. Operational readiness has been sacrificed at the altar of cleanliness. Not to mention officer cadre has been ravaged.

You dont need a war to do such damage when you have such leaders.


I was listening to Ex Army Chief Gen Shankar Roy Chauwdhary, i am sure his opinion carries a lot of weight in this forum. I will also point out what was told by T Sarkar when I said about the fixation of big purchases and soldiers in high altitude did not have clothing in big numbers. Both say the same thing. They say, its normal. gen Chowdhry said that all chiefs have been continuously writing about it. He said this letter got leaked and hence it is controversial and other wise routine. (I am merely reporting this and not saying that we have everything and this is enough.)

In past few years, we have made the most number of purchases and the 126 mmrca mother of all deals has been brought to the stage with a lot of transparency and still they are aiming it to be clean.

If someone tells me that we have not purchased anything in past 5-10 years and not enough, i would say re think.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 29 Mar 2012 11:35

chackojoseph wrote:The writer is preaching anarchy. Why the formalities should be ignored? Isn't the government all about formalities. One of the successes of AKA has been able to work with formalities and streamlining the procedures ....


Firstly AKA could have asked for an inquiry without any further input from VKS, as he is doing now. Secondly he could have instructed VKS in writing to take steps in the bribery case. If VKS had refused, it was AKA's duty to proceed against him for insubordination. Finally, BEML is not under VKS' purview at all, so it was incumbent on Antony to start an investigation independently of what VKS did or did not do.

That Antony did none of this suggests that Antony's main job is to facilitate loot by 2Gs.
Last edited by Pranav on 29 Mar 2012 11:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 29 Mar 2012 11:38

ramana wrote:Operational readiness has been sacrificed at the altar of cleanliness.


You are being too generous if you think Antony or his boss Maino have any interest in cleanliness.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 11:56

Pranav wrote:Firstly AKA could have asked for an inquiry without any further input from VKS, as he is doing now. Secondly he could have instructed VKS in writing to take steps in the bribery case. If VKS had refused, it was AKA's duty to proceed against him for insubordination. Finally, BEML is not under VKS' purview at all, so it was incumbent on Antony to start an investigation independently of what VKS did or did not do.

That Antony did none of this suggests that Antony's main job is to facilitate loot by 2Gs.


You go round and round. Antony said it is his judgement on what Antony could have done. Antony was forward and forthright in parliament and it has made critics silent. It is an anti-climax. You are free to take a stand that he was wrong. You have taken a stand. I have stated my stand with 'omission' as my reasoning.

First of all, VKS is guilty if letting the abuser of Army Chief's Chair free. Like president of India, Army cherishes its chiefs chair. I have not held him guilty for any other thing. It is independent of what transpired between AKA and VKS. VKS should have broken the bloody face of the abuser of Army chiefs dignity and chair (figuratively saying). it logically transforms to a full fledged probe.

Second is that "he refused to pursue the matter" is spite of Defence Minister's position asked him to take action. This is where AKS and VKS matter arises. Here too VKS is guilty.

Let us move on to AKA. His mistake is that he should have been tough on VKS to file a complaint as VKS is a first party to the incident.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby suryag » 29 Mar 2012 12:03

It is interesting AKA says in RS that he has even pursued anonymous complaints, in this case the army chief goes to him and personally complains and despite that he leaves the decision to VKS? IS that believable from a person who has tken upon himself to cleanse the system. Now we dont know who is telling the truth is it AKA or is it VKS

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby merlin » 29 Mar 2012 12:05

SRoy wrote:^^
Sorry for OT post, but this party has lost my support after the VKS incident. No more voting them.


Exactly. Precisely. Completely disappointed in BJP's actions.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Yayavar » 29 Mar 2012 12:09

chackojoseph wrote:First of all, VKS is guilty if letting the abuser of Army Chief's Chair free. Like president of India, Army cherishes its chiefs chair. I have not held him guilty for any other thing. It is independent of what transpired between AKA and VKS. VKS should have broken the bloody face of the abuser of Army chiefs dignity and chair (figuratively saying). it logically transforms to a full fledged probe.


What probe? It was said to him, he has recordings, and he reports it....pooch bcoz am conphused onlee. As per report he did not approve the trucks - is that not a 'muh tod jawab' too ?

Second is that "he refused to pursue the matter" is spite of Defence Minister's position asked him to take action. This is where AKS and VKS matter arises. Here too VKS is guilty.


What was he to do? What did he refuse?

Let us move on to AKA. His mistake is that he should have been tough on VKS to file a complaint as VKS is a first party to the incident.


Not sure of this one but then he should not have ordered CBI now since the same conditions hold still...no filed complaint presumably.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 29 Mar 2012 12:11

chackojoseph wrote:Second is that "he refused to pursue the matter" is spite of Defence Minister's position asked him to take action. This is where AKS and VKS matter arises. Here too VKS is guilty.


I would say AKA is lying, to put it mildly, he said nothing of the sort when the matter started, he only asked to "keep them away" -- had the matter not blown up because VKS put it out, AKA would have still not done anything.

Now that his inaction is caught AKA is trying to do a CYA exercise and trying to pass the buck -- unless of course Gen VKS is such a big dunderhead that he talks about his own faults in public proactively :lol:

Puhlleeze, there is nothing good that can be said about AKA in this episode, and nothing bad about Gen VKS.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 12:15

suryag wrote:It is interesting AKA says in RS that he has even pursued anonymous complaints, in this case the army chief goes to him and personally complains and despite that he leaves the decision to VKS?


This is the lack of understanding of what he said:

Tell me what is the definition of "anonymous" and how can Defence Minister ask anonymous to file a complaint?

Vic
What probe? It was said to him, he has recordings, and he reports it....pooch bcoz am conphused onlee. As per report he did not approve the trucks - is that not a 'muh tod jawab' too ?


Which tape? CBI says "no tape." He did not approve truck 'earlier' and hence later he was 'offered to bribed.' So, the descision to not purchase truck was not a muhtod jawab.
What was he to do? What did he refuse?


It is in Defence ministers statement in parliament.
Not sure of this one but then he should not have ordered CBI now since the same conditions hold still...no filed complaint presumably.


Take action dosen't mean CBI action. Since VKS refused. The onus lies on VKS to issue statement, why he refused and what actions led to his refusal.

Sanku,

Thats personal opinion. Considered and thank you.
Last edited by chackojoseph on 29 Mar 2012 12:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Dhiman » 29 Mar 2012 12:16

chackojoseph wrote:It is independent of what transpired between AKA and VKS. VKS should have broken the bloody face of the abuser of Army chiefs dignity and chair (figuratively saying).


Well, literally speaking, it would be illegal for the army chief to do that even in a figurative sense :-)

it logically transforms to a full fledged probe. Second is that "he refused to pursue the matter" is spite of Defence Minister's position asked him to take action. This is where AKS and VKS matter arises. Here too VKS is guilty.


Army chief by law cannot go to local police thana and file an FIR. By law he can only do two things: 1) cancel the contract, and 2) report to his boss the defense minister. He did both 1) and 2).

http://ibnlive.in.com/cnnibnvideos/top-us/243668.html

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby nelson » 29 Mar 2012 12:18

chackojoseph wrote:
Pranav wrote:Firstly AKA could have asked for an inquiry without any further input from VKS, as he is doing now. Secondly he could have instructed VKS in writing to take steps in the bribery case. If VKS had refused, it was AKA's duty to proceed against him for insubordination. Finally, BEML is not under VKS' purview at all, so it was incumbent on Antony to start an investigation independently of what VKS did or did not do.

That Antony did none of this suggests that Antony's main job is to facilitate loot by 2Gs.


You go round and round. Antony said it is his judgement on what Antony could have done. Antony was forward and forthright in parliament and it has made critics silent. It is an anti-climax. You are free to take a stand that he was wrong. You have taken a stand. I have stated my stand with 'omission' as my reasoning.

First of all, VKS is guilty if letting the abuser of Army Chief's Chair free. Like president of India, Army cherishes its chiefs chair. I have not held him guilty for any other thing. It is independent of what transpired between AKA and VKS. VKS should have broken the bloody face of the abuser of Army chiefs dignity and chair (figuratively saying). it logically transforms to a full fledged probe.

Second is that "he refused to pursue the matter" is spite of Defence Minister's position asked him to take action. This is where AKS and VKS matter arises. Here too VKS is guilty.

Let us move on to AKA. His mistake is that he should have been tough on VKS to file a complaint as VKS is a first party to the incident.


i don't know why you are being so obstinate. in spite of clear reasoning, why VKS by himself could not have initiated an inquiry, again and again, you stick to your point. and on top of it you say others are going round and round.

going by what you say, what stops AKA from issuing a show-cause notice for failure to take action and be tough, now? he has not done so and he will never do that.

do you want me to post the hierarchy of power and responsibility in the functioning of govt of india. if a senior person justifies to others that a certain lapse happened because of his junior, either he is lying or that junior has already been take to task. since the latter has not happened i assume that AKA is lying.

and lying in the Parliament is not new to him. in the very case of VKS, he lied through his teeth that VKS's promotion to certain ranks on the strength of his DoB as May 1950, which is nothing but a lie. a person who lies to defend his position and disown his juniors can never be clean. in fact he has been disloyal and had he been in uniform he would be deemed a traitor.
Last edited by nelson on 29 Mar 2012 12:27, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 12:19

Dhiman wrote:
Well, literally speaking, it would be illegal for the army chief to do that even in a figurative sense :-)

Army chief by law cannot go to local police thana and file an FIR. By law he can only do two things: 1) cancel the contract, and 2) report to his boss the defense minister. He did both 1) and 2).

http://ibnlive.in.com/cnnibnvideos/top-us/243668.html


How will it be illegal?

When AKA asked Army Chief to take action, there is no mention it that VKS ahould go to police thana.

1) cancel the contract, and 2) report to his boss the defense minister.


3) Follow the orders of his boss on remedy. he did not do it.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby suryag » 29 Mar 2012 12:22

btw AKA as the superior of VKS doesnt need to ask him for permission this is not some tinpot arab country where someone can pardon someone and the justice system would be fine with it. Someone who says he acts on anonymous complaints to keep up integrity how can he ask for permission on such an obvious complaint.

And who knows if VKS indeed told AKA to let the matter pass ? how can someone believe AKA is telling the truth ?

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 29 Mar 2012 12:23

chackojoseph wrote:3) Follow the orders of his boss on remedy. he did not do it.


Where is the paper trail for these orders. And what action did the Boss take against VKS for this alleged disobedience.

This inaction itself suggests that AKA is lying.
Last edited by Pranav on 29 Mar 2012 12:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 12:28

suryag wrote:btw AKA as the superior of VKS doesnt need to ask him for permission this is not some tinpot arab country where someone can pardon someone and the justice system would be fine with it. Someone who says he acts on anonymous complaints to keep up integrity how can he ask for permission on such an obvious complaint.

And who knows if VKS indeed told AKA to let the matter pass ? how can someone believe AKA is telling the truth ?


If the complainant is know and is first party, he has to pursue the complaint. Every dept head will ask for a written complaint.

if its anonymous, the there is another procedure.

You cannot treat an Army chiefs complaint like an anonymous complaint. The first and second party is known

Pranav wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:3) Follow the orders of his boss on remedy. he did not do it.


Then what action did the Boss take against VKS for alleged this disobedience.

This inaction itself goes to show that AKA is lying.


Why do you keep repeating why VKS was not punished? haven't I already stated that he should have forced him. Hypothetically, VKS silence shows that he at fault and is running away from defence ministers statement.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby nelson » 29 Mar 2012 12:31

Disclosure of letter “high treason”: Gen. Singh

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true


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