Indian Army : News and Discussion

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Pranav
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 29 Mar 2012 12:32

chackojoseph wrote:Why do you keep repeating why VKS was not punished? haven't I already stated that he should have forced him. Hypothetically, VKS silence shows that he at fault and is running away from defence ministers statement.


Let's give it some time.

14-crore bribe offer: Army chief to challenge Defence Minister's account - http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/14-cr ... ces-190752

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Dhiman » 29 Mar 2012 12:33

chackojoseph wrote:How will it be illegal?


Because it would be against the law.

When AKA asked Army Chief to take action, there is no mention it that VKS ahould go to police thana.


Ministers (AKA in this case) do not have the authority to order army chief to override the law that prevents army chief from taking action. Only AKA could have taken action.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Luit » 29 Mar 2012 12:34

according to general singh,

# there was no joint secretary available at MoD to deal with army procurement proposals for more than 6 months, as a result
# over 100 proposals lay on some desk gathering dust,
# IA ammo reserves will last only 2 days of battle
# he has informed the DM and the PM about the poor war fighting capabilities of the army because of neglect from the ministry,
# he has said that he informed the DM of efforts to bribe him, the DM chose not to act


these are just some of the things that the general has revealed, more will be revealed.

in any other respectable country, ministers/officials would have been sacked and perhaps even governments would have crumbled, but here we are pondering on sacking the general, who is merely doing his job as a professional. strange country we live in, very similar to a banana republic.

anthony is the worst def minister we have had, even worse than menon. he has big zero to show for himself, not surprising as he is more like a chamcha, with zero managerial and leadership skills.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 12:36

Dhiman wrote:Because it would be against the law.

Ministers (AKA in this case) do not have the authority to order army chief to override the law that prevents army chief from taking action. Only AKA could have taken action.


Explain why it is against law? I can learn.

Pranav wrote:Let's give it some time.


I said the same thing. Wait for VKS statement before pronouncing AKA guilty.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Dhiman » 29 Mar 2012 12:56

chackojoseph wrote:
Dhiman wrote:Because it would be against the law.

Ministers (AKA in this case) do not have the authority to order army chief to override the law that prevents army chief from taking action. Only AKA could have taken action.


Explain why it is against law? I can learn.


It has to do with "checks and balances" and "separation of powers": two fundamental principals behind democratic systems. A supreme court judge cannot make laws, Parliament MP's cannot decide court cases, and in the same manner, army chief cannot sidestep police and prosecute someone for committing a domestic crime (bribery). If this was not the case, India would be like what Pakistan is today.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby anjan » 29 Mar 2012 12:57

chackojoseph wrote:The writer is preaching anarchy. Why the formalities should be ignored? Isn't the government all about formalities. One of the successes of AKA has been able to work with formalities and streamlining the procedures.

If Antony goes beyond formalities he should do it in exigencies, like national emergencies etc. otherwise, the entire system will be doomed.

We do not want rouge ministers in India.

AKA can be accused of omission, but not anything else. The writer is insane
What? What happened to all your journalistic "alleged" and all? This is beyond stupid. One shouldn't need a formal complaint to want to figure out just why one of the companies under his direct control is charging the Army a 100%+ markup. Is this so complicated to understand. I truly don't know what kind of cockamamie organization would require a formal complaint before a higher up can make inquiries into the operations of his subordinates.

That's not omission. That willful negligence. The best argument for him is that he's simply not powerful enough to stop certain types of corruption. Beyond that it's your argument that's insane and ignores the reality of any organizational structure.

While we're at it I'm curious why you think a anonymous complaint is actionable by the good saint but a verbal one from the Chief is not. If he really wants a piece of paper he should have written himself an anonymous complain. After all isn't he the greatest, that paragon of virtue, cleaner than the driven snow, the one and only Saint Antony.
Last edited by anjan on 29 Mar 2012 13:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby nelson » 29 Mar 2012 12:59

chackojoseph wrote:
Dhiman wrote:Because it would be against the law.

Ministers (AKA in this case) do not have the authority to order army chief to override the law that prevents army chief from taking action. Only AKA could have taken action.


Explain why it is against law? I can learn.



You can only learn when you have an open mind. No matter what is being told, you want to keep harping on the same point, which betrays a closed mind. No chance of learning any thing here.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby uddu » 29 Mar 2012 13:30

Anthony must start cleaning from inside the MOD. Without the involvement of MOD officials it's impossible to conduct large scale corruption by any service.
The army is hit hard this time because their reliance on import of weaponry. A large portion of weaponary used by the Army is imported. Further imports will not solve the problem.
Time to have a look at Trichy Assault Rifle, MSMC, Arjun, TATA, AL, LCH, ALH and the like. Follow on orders for Pinaka can also be placed along with development of next generation of Pinaka-II, Akash-II and the like.
The artillery upgrade need to be speeded up with the indigenous guns. Hope the Bhim project is getting revived as well.
High time to go indigenous in a big way.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 29 Mar 2012 13:40

nelson wrote:Disclosure of letter “high treason”: Gen. Singh

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true


A good statement from VKS. If, as one suspects, this was leaked by the MoD in order to fix the General, then it may backfire.

If it is high treason then it is incumbent on the Govt to get to the bottom of the matter. Some very senior people in the Govt dirty tricks department may be hoist on the petard of high treason.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby nelson » 29 Mar 2012 13:42

Praveen Swamy elucidates why the contents of VKS's letter to PM may remain harmless.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 255466.ece

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby nelson » 29 Mar 2012 13:50

An independent analysis of the 'leak' written by Col retd Ashok Kumar Singh.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-8fqj- ... ktoUQ/edit
Last edited by nelson on 29 Mar 2012 13:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Luit » 29 Mar 2012 13:51

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_vk-singh-s-letter-to-pm-oppostion-corners-govt-after-dna-report_1668705
A day after DNA published a report about army chief General VK Singh raising concerns about India’s lack of preparedness for war in a letter to prime minister (PM) Manmohan Singh, the opposition came down heavily on the Union government on Wednesday. Senior BJP leader M Venkaiah Naidu held a copy of DNA in the Rajya Sabha and asked if India’s defence preparedness was in such a sorry state as mentioned by the army chief.

“These are serious charges,” Naidu thundered as Rajya Sabha chairperson Hamid Ansari tried to stop him from reading aloud excerpts from the report. The House was adjourned for some time, but when it assembled again, BJP leader Prakash Javdekar criticised the government for neglecting the country’s defence requirements.

From the outset, defence minister AK Antony was more perturbed about the leakage of the report than the facts mentioned in the letter and concerns raised by the army chief who retires in two months. There was silence in the treasury benches when Antony said the defence ministry was aware of the letter and would react to it at “an appropriate time”.

After Antony had his say, leader of opposition in the Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley voiced concern about the country’s defence preparedness. He said he wanted to avoid an “acrimonious” debate on such a sensitive issue and hoped that the government was paying due attention to issues raised in the letter. He also raised concern about the leakage of the letter.

Later, senior CPM leader Sitaram Yechury, JD(U)’s Shivanand Tewari and Pyarimohan Mahapatra of the BJD also questioned the government on how the letter reached the newspaper. “We may say that we want to avoid acrimony, but the matter is already in public domain as the letter has appeared in the press,” Yechury said.

Parties like the Samajwadi Party and the Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD) demanded that the army chief be sacked. RJD chief Lalu Prasad Yadav said that Gen Singh is frustrated. “It was an expression of his frustration,” he said. His views were echoed by minister for overseas affairs Vyalar Ravi. Congress spokesperson Rashid Alvi observed that in matters related to national security, everyone should exercise restraint.

The DNA report has shaken the government at the highest level. The PM who returned from Seoul was scheduled to speak on the letter during the post-lunch session. It reflected how seriously the government treats the letter now that it is in public domain. However, uproar in the Lok Sabha over Telangana prevented the PM from speaking in the Rajya Sabha.

During the afternoon briefing, BJP’s Ravi Shankar Prasad was extremely critical of the handling of the defence ministry by the UPA government for the past several weeks. In a critical appraisal of the government’s skirmish with the army chief, Prasad said: “It is evident that though armed forces are under civilian control in our democracy, that equilibrium seems to have been disturbed. It requires political management not only by the defence minister but also by the highest leadership.”He said the government must ensure that defence preparedness and procurement take place without “compromising integrity”.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Luit » 29 Mar 2012 13:53

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_vk-singh-bribe-row-congress-fears-probe-may-implicate-rajiv-gandhi_1668703
The Congress is in a tizzy over defence minister AK Antony’s hurry to order a Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) into army chief VK Singh’s allegations that he was offered a Rs14 crore bribe to clear the purchase of substandard Tatra trucks. The party fears that the probe may open a can of worms as the deal opting for Tatra trucks was signed in 1986 when Rajiv Gandhi was prime minister as well as defence minister. Businessman Rajiv Rishi who got the deal to purchase the high-technology Tatra trucks was believed to be a close friend of Gandhi. :mrgreen:

Congress leaders are upset that Antony has handed over the bribe allegation case to the CBI without even discussing the issue with party colleagues in the absence of prime minister (PM) Manmohan Singh. :mrgreen: He scribbled his directive on the press clipping mentioning the bribery charge and asked the defence ministry to pass the matter to the CBI.

“There is a proper way of ordering a probe. He could have consulted his senior-most colleague Pranab Mukherjee to set the terms and references for the probe,” a visibly upset senior minister told DNA. :rotfl:

In the absence of terms and references, the party fears that the CBI may dig up minute details of the deal and sully Rajiv Gandhi’s name. :((

The Bofors ghost continues to haunt the Congress to date and now, the CBI probe may end up naming Gandhi by probing Gen Singh’s charge that substandard Tatra trucks were bought for exorbitant prices over the years. Though respected in the party for his integrity, Antony may now face the high command’s ire for ordering a probe without examining its implications. “He may be saving himself from facing the wrath of the opposition, but he has made the first family of the ruling party vulnerable,” Congress leaders told DNA.

Sources said Gen Singh’s interview in a newspaper in which he made the bribery allegations enraged Antony so much that he called up the defence secretary from his Parliament house chamber itself and asked him to order a CBI probe. “He did not even call for the files to examine the deal,” sources said.

Congress loyalists are working overtime to ensure the CBI limits its inquiry to the army chief’s bribe allegations and that Rajiv Gandhi’s name does not crop up in connection with the Tatra trucks deal. :rotfl:

Insiders, however, said the defence ministry letter has called for a “comprehensive probe” and therefore, the CBI will be forced to unearth details from the day the proposal to buy Tatra trucks was made. The probe may also cover how the supplies took place over the years and if any special favour was accorded to its manufacturer over and above the offers made by other competitors. Interestingly, the deal for Tatra trucks was made around the same time when the Bofors deal was inked. :mrgreen:

Meanwhile, the government has decided not to touch Gen Singh unless he creates a new problem. :mrgreen: Some members of the Congress and the opposition, particularly the JD(U), :mrgreen: have sought the army chief’s dismissal following Wednesday’s DNA report about him having written a letter to the PM mentioning the army’s lack of preparedness for war. The PM chaired a meeting on Wednesday and rejected demands to sack the army chief. :mrgreen:

Congress spokesperson Rashid Alvi said such issues need not be debated in public. He, however, said Antony’s statement declaring India’s full preparedness to take on any eventuality was encouraging and answered all doubts raised by the army chief’s leaked letter.
Last edited by Luit on 29 Mar 2012 14:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby alexis » 29 Mar 2012 14:01

anmol wrote:
Pranav wrote: 70 lakhs rupees x 7000 trucks = USD 1 billion approx


Ajai Shukla says that the trucks are bought for 110 lakhs, so close to USD 2 Billion.

70 lakh is the extra price paid. So loss to exchequer is 4900 crore.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 14:08

Dhiman wrote:It has to do with "checks and balances" and "separation of powers": two fundamental principals behind democratic systems. A supreme court judge cannot make laws, Parliament MP's cannot decide court cases, and in the same manner, army chief cannot sidestep police and prosecute someone for committing a domestic crime (bribery). If this was not the case, India would be like what Pakistan is today.


It does not stop anybody from filing a case. A supreme court jusge can file a case. parliament can appeal on a case via procedure. An Army chief cannot be stopped from investigating internally or externally. naturally, he cannot prosecute. Antony asked him to take action not prosecute.

anjan wrote:What? What happened to all your journalistic "alleged" and all? This is beyond stupid. One shouldn't need a formal complaint to want to figure out just why one of the companies under his direct control is charging the Army a 100%+ markup. Is this so complicated to understand. I truly don't know what kind of cockamamie organization would require a formal complaint before a higher up can make inquiries into the operations of his subordinates.

That's not omission. That willful negligence. The best argument for him is that he's simply not powerful enough to stop certain types of corruption. Beyond that it's your argument that's insane and ignores the reality of any organizational structure.

While we're at it I'm curious why you think a anonymous complaint is actionable by the good saint but a verbal one from the Chief is not. If he really wants a piece of paper he should have written himself an anonymous complain. After all isn't he the greatest, that paragon of virtue, cleaner than the driven snow, the one and only Saint Antony.


Which place you felt that i passed a judgement? calling an insane suggestion has nothing to be journalistic about.

You are again going round and round and round. I have said that AKA is at fault and he should have investigated. How hard is it to understand? So did the Defense minister say "its my judgement, punish me if I am wrong." I don't understand why you have to keep talking same stuff again and again and again. Move beyond the point, can you?

What he said in parliament is that he normally acts on even the anon complaints, this time he judged that it needn't be and he had asked the Gen to take action. The gen refused and he implied even i didn't take it.

Why are you pushing all these as your own and not AKA said? AKA has already said all that. You are claiming that it is a new thing you are saying.

nelson wrote:You can only learn when you have an open mind. No matter what is being told, you want to keep harping on the same point, which betrays a closed mind. No chance of learning any thing here.


If you are not able to find a reply to my 'recusal' explanation (i had misspelled as recluse), what can I do. I had already read the explanations given in the thread before and I do not agree.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 14:17

uddu wrote:Anthony must start cleaning from inside the MOD. Without the involvement of MOD officials it's impossible to conduct large scale corruption by any service.
The army is hit hard this time because their reliance on import of weaponry. A large portion of weaponary used by the Army is imported. Further imports will not solve the problem.
Time to have a look at Trichy Assault Rifle, MSMC, Arjun, TATA, AL, LCH, ALH and the like. Follow on orders for Pinaka can also be placed along with development of next generation of Pinaka-II, Akash-II and the like.
The artillery upgrade need to be speeded up with the indigenous guns. Hope the Bhim project is getting revived as well.
High time to go indigenous in a big way.


Correct! The entire idea of license manufacture bu a DPSU is to keep the procedures clean. If that is not achieved, then they must consider Indian private sector, which could at least churn out quality stuff.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby alexis » 29 Mar 2012 14:51

peter wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:
The talks which transpired between VKS and TS was reported to AKA. AKA asks VKS to give in writing as otherwise there will be no proof (there is no hint that the tape was in the knowledge of AKA or VKS told him).

VKS says that he doesn't want to pursue the case. The trucks are not purchased.



You are still missing the point. Where is the written complaint from General VKS now? If Anthony can order a CBI probe without a written complaint NOW why not back then?

As I said earlier it is inconsistent behavior by Anthony.


The matter is now in the media. So AKA has to order a CBI enquiry. Else, he would be held responsible.

If a junior person tells me that another person in the company is trying to bribe him, i would insist on a written complaint. Else, i may get into trouble if the complainant changes his stand.

I agree that AKA should have been pro-active and made VKS file a complaint. However, VKS is to be faulted for not acting against his subordinate. He should have submitted a written complaint alongwith the tape recordings of the conversation.

I also dont understand why VKS went to the media. He should have filed a complaint with the appropriate investigative agency.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby nelson » 29 Mar 2012 14:57

The problem is the person was no longer in the "Company".

Lt Gen retd Tejinder Singh was not amenable to Army Act at the time of making the offer. Had he been under Army Act, his b@ll$ would have been roasted by now. Can't you see the Generals who have been Court Martialled or those who have been arrested now, in Sukna and Adarsh scams.

Why VKS went to media now, is a question that would be answered by Lt Gen retd Tejinder Singh in due course.
Last edited by nelson on 29 Mar 2012 15:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby SRoy » 29 Mar 2012 15:04

^^
alexis,

The bribe giver was not COAS Gen. VKS's subordinate, in the sense he was out of service.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Luit » 29 Mar 2012 15:08

http://www.firstpost.com/india/gen-vk-singh-is-a-hero-for-fighting-the-enemy-within-259567.html

It must be abundantly clear why Gen VK Singh today finds himself in an unholy mess. He has violated the Omerta Code of the Power Circle. The one that dictates that once you’ve made it to the posh club of power insiders, you don’t talk about some things, such as the gravy train that everyone rides on and feeds off.

In the posh clubs where liveried waiters hover like friendly ghosts, and where moustachioed Generals and netas in their pressed bandhgalas and babus in their pin-stripe suits guffaw and talk pussy over their Patiala pegs, it is taboo to talk about money. Particularly the kind of obscene money that everyone gets a fair share of when deals are finalised.

Into that posh club, Gen VK Singh has blundered in like a barefoot dehati.

And, worse, he declines gratuitous invitations from fellow officers for him to become “one of them” by getting suited-booted up, refuses to clamber aboard their gravy train and help himself to the goodies – and, horror of horrors, goes so far as to initiate investigations into their own conduct unbecoming of officers. All this merely because they played by the “jobs for the boys” rules of the Power Club, and feathered their own nests.
VK Singh

If what it takes to get us even talk about the colossal mess we are in is for him to shake the government and our civil society out of our stupor, more power to you, Gen Singh. AFP

And now, he has begun focusing his Sauron eye on serving officers, who are in line to become Army Chief. Is the man mad, they wonder. How did we ever let him into the club, they fret.

Of course, there have been – and continue to be – honest men in the uniformed services, just as there are honest men in politics and in the civil service. But even when they themselves are scrupulously clean, they have all along abided by the Omerta Rule: even when they knew that other officers and netas and babu were pigging out on the trough, they chose to look the other way. Why blow the whistle and invite trouble, and risk losing their honour and their well-earned pension and the prospect of being invited to head some committee or a thinktank in the future?

Which is why the retired Lieutenant General whom Gen VK Singh accused of offering him a bribe cannot get his head around the fact that there are still a few good men in uniform. “Army chiefs before you have accepted money, and army chiefs after you will, so why do you not?” he asked Gen VK Singh, when he made the offer of a Rs 14 crore bribe.

Today, Gen VK Singh, close to retirement and perhaps sensing that he has been robbed of his dignity in the battle with the government over his date of birth, has gone rogue. He has broken the Omerta Code of silence and is telling the world of the horrors he has seen within the Army fortresses. And it isn’t a pretty picture.

Fellow officers are shaking their heads and tut-tutting into their Scotch on the rocks. Why rock the boat, they ask him. Why invite inglorious attention to what we’ve tucked away out of sight –and put on a show of glorious make-believe? Why, oh why, can’t you just look away?

The political establishment in its entirety is equally appalled. The General has become a guerilla warrior, they thunder. He ought to abide by the code, yield to civilian supremacy, and either stay silent or be sacked. In the same way that they rubbished Team Anna’s campaign against corruption last year and continued with their rollicking party in Parliament, they have ganged up against Gen VK Singh. In words eerily reminiscent of last year (in the context of Anna Hazare’s campaign), Lalu Prasad Yadav wonders if Gen VK Singh is angling for a career in politics.

And what of the media and sections of civil society? They too have their ‘angles’: Gen VK Singh’s motives are suspect, they say. Why did he not act in all the time that he was in office, why now, they wonder. In the same way that they turned on Team Anna and made mincemeat of that campaign, they are shredding Gen VK Singh to pieces – when, in fact, the focus then and now should have been on the sky-high corruption that they exposed.

It’s a bizarre, perverted world if we are asked to tolerate the status quo, even when we know it to be venal, merely because the alternative – of shaking things up — makes us queasy. Because it violates Section 2, Subsection 3(a) of the club rules.

For sure, Gen VK Singh has gone rogue. But I say: more power to you, Gen Singh. Even if, as some have suggested, you are doing it only for megalomaniacal reasons — or out of a sense of pettiness. Even though I can’t quite understand why you waited until now to say these things, I’m just plain glad you are saying them at least now.

Any self-respecting civilian government or military force or civil society ought to be celebrating Gen VK Singh for being a true warrior and taking on the Enemy Within. The problems that he highlights are our collective problems. Those problems have turned us into a banana republic far more than anything Gen Singh has done in severing the cosy, comfortable, clubby relationship between the military and the civilian administration.

If what it takes to get us even talk about the colossal mess we are in is for him to shake the government and our civil society out of our stupor, more power to you, Gen Singh.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Viv S » 29 Mar 2012 15:12

Has there been further information released on the supposed recording of the attempt to bribe. Its doubtful if any such recording exists. The Army Chief's statement made it amply clear that he was taken aback by the offer - there's no reason for a tape recorder to have been running in the background.


And assuming that there is no recording, this entire controversy is moot. It doesn't matter if the Army chief were to a write a complaint, or the DM were to do so - it would go nowhere and they both know it. Aside from General V.K. Singh's testimony, there is simply no legally admissible evidence to enable the prosecution of the accused individual.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 29 Mar 2012 15:22

Clamour for action against V.K. Singh grows

The chorus for strong action against Army chief V.K. Singh grew louder on Thursday after reports that he had sought a CBI probe into a serving officer based on a letter written by a Trinamool Congress MP. While the BJP doubted the timing of the disclosure, the RJD said he was ‘out of his mind’.

http://www.asianage.com/india/clamour-a ... -grows-253


Look at the pigs squeal.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby chackojoseph » 29 Mar 2012 15:35

There is no scope for his dismissal yet. Especially after he kicked up the corruption row.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby nelson » 29 Mar 2012 15:46

Pranav wrote:
Clamour for action against V.K. Singh grows

The chorus for strong action against Army chief V.K. Singh grew louder on Thursday after reports that he had sought a CBI probe into a serving officer based on a letter written by a Trinamool Congress MP. While the BJP doubted the timing of the disclosure, the RJD said he was ‘out of his mind’.

http://www.asianage.com/india/clamour-a ... -grows-253


Look at the pigs squeal.


Poor fellows don't know that the letter from TMC MP is addressed to
PM and Defence Minister. Probably they can't read?

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby alexis » 29 Mar 2012 15:59

merlin wrote:
SRoy wrote:^^
Sorry for OT post, but this party has lost my support after the VKS incident. No more voting them.


Exactly. Precisely. Completely disappointed in BJP's actions.


I lost all respect for BJP after "coffingate". I am not surprised. 2G scam also has links to BJP. Both BJP and Congress are corrupt but there are clean individuals in both parties.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Murugan » 29 Mar 2012 16:00

Some tidbit from wiki article

VKS was the first trained commando.

Is the first commando to become a Chief

He is a third generation army man

In the US for the Rangers course, he came first in combat operations.

Singh was awarded the Ati Vishisht Seva Medal (AVSM) for distinguished service while commanding a counter-insurgency force.

He was honorary ADC to president of India

On 11 March 2011, Singh was inducted into the United States Army War College (Class of 2001 graduate) International Fellows Hall of Fame. He is the 33rd International Fellow and the first Indian Armed Forces officer to be inducted.

YSM - Yudh Seva Medal for his distinguished service during Operation Pawan

*****
He is no mean person

He is the first to bring govt on its weak knees

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Atri » 29 Mar 2012 16:04

My father was offered bribe for defence deals: HD Kumaraswamy - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 454853.cms

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 29 Mar 2012 16:06

alexis wrote:
merlin wrote:"SRoy"^^
Sorry for OT post, but this party has lost my support after the VKS incident. No more voting them.

Exactly. Precisely. Completely disappointed in BJP's actions.


I lost all respect for BJP after "coffingate". I am not surprised. 2G scam also has links to BJP. Both BJP and Congress are corrupt but there are clean individuals in both parties.


There is no reason to bring BJP into the picture and make it a political game. This issue is being run by Congress, and trying to needlessly bring in BJP just lets the real culprits off the hook.

-----------

PS> This is not to say that the charges made against BJP are correct or can not be answered, only that it would be falling into a ==,or you farted game.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby alexis » 29 Mar 2012 16:16

SRoy wrote:^^
alexis,

The bribe giver was not COAS Gen. VKS's subordinate, in the sense he was out of service.


My understanding was that he retired after this incident. However, my arguement does not change. Any complaint has to be documented. AKA (being a conservative and a "safety - first" person) wanted a written complaint, which was not provided. I agree with Chacko that both parties are guilty of act of omission.

As somebody pointed out, both AKA and VKS behaved like kripa, bhishma, drona and karna in Mahabharata. If honest men like AKA and VKS are not ready to throw the gauntlet, then i fear for our nation.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Atri » 29 Mar 2012 16:19

Not VKS. MMS and AKA allegedly behaved like the money-serving righteous acharyas. This is best case scenario. Worst case is, they too participated in dishonouring India like Karna did when he called Draupadi a whore. Do not mix bhishma and karna. and Do not mix up VKS and MMS. There is no difference between Karna and Dusshasana. And at least to me, there is no difference between 3G (and their handlers) and MMS and AKA and few others who are "honest like Karna" :roll:....

VKS is doing all this while in office. So no one can say that he did nothing.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Murugan » 29 Mar 2012 16:24

And VKS is doing right from day one he took charge. Well before the age row erupted.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Murugan » 29 Mar 2012 16:32

This is becoming funnier

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_i- ... mp_1668972

Banerjee told a news channel, Star Ananda, in Delhi that a year back, after getting information of graft from reliable sources, he had written to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Defence Minister AK Antony about “illegal or disputed deals”.

“Unfortunately, I have received only acknowledgement. I am very surprised that I did not get any letter from them. But the media has got my letter from their tables,” Banerjee said.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Atri » 29 Mar 2012 16:34

Murugan wrote:And VKS is doing right from day one he took charge. Well before the age row erupted.


The fact that 3G and GOI had to resort to, what we call in Mumbai, "Chindhi giri" of digging up some application form written by a 14 year old boy in mid-sixties shows that there really isn't much material available with GOI and "3G-system" on VKS that can be used to frame him, blackmail him and chastise him if he is insubordinate. If they could dig up some application form, then they must have searched for something more serious and damning for sure. The fact that they could not find anything else, shows that EITHER VKS has lived a very Dharmik life with integrity OR he is really smart and knows how to cover all his deeds. While I favor the former inference, in either case he is truly deserving person.

The very fact that GOI stooped low so much tht this cheap chindhigiri was deployed shows that VKS was displaying traits, doing things which goes against the mercantile interests of the entrenched lobby. Ideally VKS should be given 3-4 years of extension and encouraged to continue doing the cleanup. But this ain't the regime of Sri Rama, Chanakya, Vikramaditya or Shivaji so this won't happen for sure.
Last edited by Atri on 29 Mar 2012 16:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby alexis » 29 Mar 2012 16:35

Atri wrote:
VKS is doing all this while in office. So no one can say that he did nothing.


Yes. He is. So marginally better. However in all the incidents, he seems to be "late" in his actions. He should have pursued vigorously in both DOB issue and the bribe earlier.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Murugan » 29 Mar 2012 16:43

Atriji

Yes, Dharmic or Smart, whatever he is doing, he is doing in true commando style, relentlessly, step by step with conviction and fearlessness, without remorse...

Now ambika banerjee has brought the ineptitude of mounmoun sings and antoneys, and their incompetent offices workings...

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 29 Mar 2012 16:46

A very starightforward Q which requires a very simple answer.What would one do if the watchman or security guard/agency you have employed to guard your house fail in their duty and fall asleep,turn a nelsonian eye, whatever ,and allow burglars to make off with the family silver? Surely one's first instinct would be of sacking the man responsible? What if you further learn that the watchman was actually warned in advance that someone was planning to raid the house,or was quietly looting it and all he did was to hold his head in his hands,did nothing not even telling his master? The very least one could say is that he was derelict of hs duty. But if the lord of the manor also does nothing the suspicion then arises whether the crime was that of an "inside job",which is why nothing serious was done about the warnings in the first lace.

I'm afraid that St.Anthony lost his halo whe he held his head in his hands!

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Luit » 29 Mar 2012 17:24

antony =

sits for years as indian army's war fighting capabilities diminish
wants written complaints
cant find a js to look after army procurement proposals
doesn't address dob issue
orders a cbi enquiry after issue is made public

he is a failure as DM

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Luit » 29 Mar 2012 17:32

Murugan wrote:On 11 March 2011, Singh was inducted into the United States Army War College (Class of 2001 graduate) International Fellows Hall of Fame. He is the 33rd International Fellow and the first Indian Armed Forces officer to be inducted.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls5Wd-Sp6Hw

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 29 Mar 2012 17:59

alexis wrote:
Atri wrote:
VKS is doing all this while in office. So no one can say that he did nothing.


Yes. He is. So marginally better. However in all the incidents, he seems to be "late" in his actions. He should have pursued vigorously in both DOB issue and the bribe earlier.


I am sorry but the only person who is late is you -- by far -- in catching on -- the age row has been brewing for 6 years, the rest of anti-corruption clean up drive -- for 2 years

Any time he would have spoken up, some would say -- why now? If he had spoken earlier, they would have claimed blackmail or supporting xyz faction.

After all, when you decide to be like Diggy, you can throw any mud on your opponents, irrespective of any facts, couched as "I think Gen VKS did not personally take out his gun and shoot him this show Gen VKS is involved" or "Gen VKS took out his gun and shot him so it shows Gen VKS wants to hide something"

To those who want to protect the corrupt by tarring everyone with the same brush, they can make any and equal and opposite assertion just to save their skin.

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Postby nelson » 29 Mar 2012 18:26

^Rightly said. AKA did what he had to after being forced, like a typical politician. Sorry, that I have to quote an Italian...

'The first duty of a politician is to save his own skin.' ... Niccolò Machiavelli


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