Let's give it some time.chackojoseph wrote: Why do you keep repeating why VKS was not punished? haven't I already stated that he should have forced him. Hypothetically, VKS silence shows that he at fault and is running away from defence ministers statement.
Because it would be against the law.chackojoseph wrote: How will it be illegal?
Ministers (AKA in this case) do not have the authority to order army chief to override the law that prevents army chief from taking action. Only AKA could have taken action.When AKA asked Army Chief to take action, there is no mention it that VKS ahould go to police thana.
Explain why it is against law? I can learn.Dhiman wrote: Because it would be against the law.
Ministers (AKA in this case) do not have the authority to order army chief to override the law that prevents army chief from taking action. Only AKA could have taken action.
I said the same thing. Wait for VKS statement before pronouncing AKA guilty.Pranav wrote: Let's give it some time.
It has to do with "checks and balances" and "separation of powers": two fundamental principals behind democratic systems. A supreme court judge cannot make laws, Parliament MP's cannot decide court cases, and in the same manner, army chief cannot sidestep police and prosecute someone for committing a domestic crime (bribery). If this was not the case, India would be like what Pakistan is today.chackojoseph wrote:Explain why it is against law? I can learn.Dhiman wrote: Because it would be against the law.
Ministers (AKA in this case) do not have the authority to order army chief to override the law that prevents army chief from taking action. Only AKA could have taken action.
What? What happened to all your journalistic "alleged" and all? This is beyond stupid. One shouldn't need a formal complaint to want to figure out just why one of the companies under his direct control is charging the Army a 100%+ markup. Is this so complicated to understand. I truly don't know what kind of cockamamie organization would require a formal complaint before a higher up can make inquiries into the operations of his subordinates.chackojoseph wrote: The writer is preaching anarchy. Why the formalities should be ignored? Isn't the government all about formalities. One of the successes of AKA has been able to work with formalities and streamlining the procedures.
If Antony goes beyond formalities he should do it in exigencies, like national emergencies etc. otherwise, the entire system will be doomed.
We do not want rouge ministers in India.
AKA can be accused of omission, but not anything else. The writer is insane
You can only learn when you have an open mind. No matter what is being told, you want to keep harping on the same point, which betrays a closed mind. No chance of learning any thing here.chackojoseph wrote:Explain why it is against law? I can learn.Dhiman wrote: Because it would be against the law.
Ministers (AKA in this case) do not have the authority to order army chief to override the law that prevents army chief from taking action. Only AKA could have taken action.
A good statement from VKS. If, as one suspects, this was leaked by the MoD in order to fix the General, then it may backfire.nelson wrote:Disclosure of letter “high treason”: Gen. Singh
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true
A day after DNA published a report about army chief General VK Singh raising concerns about India’s lack of preparedness for war in a letter to prime minister (PM) Manmohan Singh, the opposition came down heavily on the Union government on Wednesday. Senior BJP leader M Venkaiah Naidu held a copy of DNA in the Rajya Sabha and asked if India’s defence preparedness was in such a sorry state as mentioned by the army chief.
“These are serious charges,” Naidu thundered as Rajya Sabha chairperson Hamid Ansari tried to stop him from reading aloud excerpts from the report. The House was adjourned for some time, but when it assembled again, BJP leader Prakash Javdekar criticised the government for neglecting the country’s defence requirements.
From the outset, defence minister AK Antony was more perturbed about the leakage of the report than the facts mentioned in the letter and concerns raised by the army chief who retires in two months. There was silence in the treasury benches when Antony said the defence ministry was aware of the letter and would react to it at “an appropriate time”.
After Antony had his say, leader of opposition in the Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley voiced concern about the country’s defence preparedness. He said he wanted to avoid an “acrimonious” debate on such a sensitive issue and hoped that the government was paying due attention to issues raised in the letter. He also raised concern about the leakage of the letter.
Later, senior CPM leader Sitaram Yechury, JD(U)’s Shivanand Tewari and Pyarimohan Mahapatra of the BJD also questioned the government on how the letter reached the newspaper. “We may say that we want to avoid acrimony, but the matter is already in public domain as the letter has appeared in the press,” Yechury said.
Parties like the Samajwadi Party and the Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD) demanded that the army chief be sacked. RJD chief Lalu Prasad Yadav said that Gen Singh is frustrated. “It was an expression of his frustration,” he said. His views were echoed by minister for overseas affairs Vyalar Ravi. Congress spokesperson Rashid Alvi observed that in matters related to national security, everyone should exercise restraint.
The DNA report has shaken the government at the highest level. The PM who returned from Seoul was scheduled to speak on the letter during the post-lunch session. It reflected how seriously the government treats the letter now that it is in public domain. However, uproar in the Lok Sabha over Telangana prevented the PM from speaking in the Rajya Sabha.
During the afternoon briefing, BJP’s Ravi Shankar Prasad was extremely critical of the handling of the defence ministry by the UPA government for the past several weeks. In a critical appraisal of the government’s skirmish with the army chief, Prasad said: “It is evident that though armed forces are under civilian control in our democracy, that equilibrium seems to have been disturbed. It requires political management not only by the defence minister but also by the highest leadership.”He said the government must ensure that defence preparedness and procurement take place without “compromising integrity”.
The Congress is in a tizzy over defence minister AK Antony’s hurry to order a Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) into army chief VK Singh’s allegations that he was offered a Rs14 crore bribe to clear the purchase of substandard Tatra trucks. The party fears that the probe may open a can of worms as the deal opting for Tatra trucks was signed in 1986 when Rajiv Gandhi was prime minister as well as defence minister. Businessman Rajiv Rishi who got the deal to purchase the high-technology Tatra trucks was believed to be a close friend of Gandhi.
Congress leaders are upset that Antony has handed over the bribe allegation case to the CBI without even discussing the issue with party colleagues in the absence of prime minister (PM) Manmohan Singh.
“There is a proper way of ordering a probe. He could have consulted his senior-most colleague Pranab Mukherjee to set the terms and references for the probe,” a visibly upset senior minister told DNA.
In the absence of terms and references, the party fears that the CBI may dig up minute details of the deal and sully Rajiv Gandhi’s name.
The Bofors ghost continues to haunt the Congress to date and now, the CBI probe may end up naming Gandhi by probing Gen Singh’s charge that substandard Tatra trucks were bought for exorbitant prices over the years. Though respected in the party for his integrity, Antony may now face the high command’s ire for ordering a probe without examining its implications. “He may be saving himself from facing the wrath of the opposition, but he has made the first family of the ruling party vulnerable,” Congress leaders told DNA.
Sources said Gen Singh’s interview in a newspaper in which he made the bribery allegations enraged Antony so much that he called up the defence secretary from his Parliament house chamber itself and asked him to order a CBI probe. “He did not even call for the files to examine the deal,” sources said.
Congress loyalists are working overtime to ensure the CBI limits its inquiry to the army chief’s bribe allegations and that Rajiv Gandhi’s name does not crop up in connection with the Tatra trucks deal.
Insiders, however, said the defence ministry letter has called for a “comprehensive probe” and therefore, the CBI will be forced to unearth details from the day the proposal to buy Tatra trucks was made. The probe may also cover how the supplies took place over the years and if any special favour was accorded to its manufacturer over and above the offers made by other competitors. Interestingly, the deal for Tatra trucks was made around the same time when the Bofors deal was inked.
Meanwhile, the government has decided not to touch Gen Singh unless he creates a new problem.
Congress spokesperson Rashid Alvi said such issues need not be debated in public. He, however, said Antony’s statement declaring India’s full preparedness to take on any eventuality was encouraging and answered all doubts raised by the army chief’s leaked letter.
70 lakh is the extra price paid. So loss to exchequer is 4900 crore.anmol wrote:Ajai Shukla says that the trucks are bought for 110 lakhs, so close to USD 2 Billion.Pranav wrote: 70 lakhs rupees x 7000 trucks = USD 1 billion approx
It does not stop anybody from filing a case. A supreme court jusge can file a case. parliament can appeal on a case via procedure. An Army chief cannot be stopped from investigating internally or externally. naturally, he cannot prosecute. Antony asked him to take action not prosecute.Dhiman wrote:It has to do with "checks and balances" and "separation of powers": two fundamental principals behind democratic systems. A supreme court judge cannot make laws, Parliament MP's cannot decide court cases, and in the same manner, army chief cannot sidestep police and prosecute someone for committing a domestic crime (bribery). If this was not the case, India would be like what Pakistan is today.
Which place you felt that i passed a judgement? calling an insane suggestion has nothing to be journalistic about.anjan wrote:What? What happened to all your journalistic "alleged" and all? This is beyond stupid. One shouldn't need a formal complaint to want to figure out just why one of the companies under his direct control is charging the Army a 100%+ markup. Is this so complicated to understand. I truly don't know what kind of cockamamie organization would require a formal complaint before a higher up can make inquiries into the operations of his subordinates.
That's not omission. That willful negligence. The best argument for him is that he's simply not powerful enough to stop certain types of corruption. Beyond that it's your argument that's insane and ignores the reality of any organizational structure.
While we're at it I'm curious why you think a anonymous complaint is actionable by the good saint but a verbal one from the Chief is not. If he really wants a piece of paper he should have written himself an anonymous complain. After all isn't he the greatest, that paragon of virtue, cleaner than the driven snow, the one and only Saint Antony.
If you are not able to find a reply to my 'recusal' explanation (i had misspelled as recluse), what can I do. I had already read the explanations given in the thread before and I do not agree.nelson wrote:You can only learn when you have an open mind. No matter what is being told, you want to keep harping on the same point, which betrays a closed mind. No chance of learning any thing here.
Correct! The entire idea of license manufacture bu a DPSU is to keep the procedures clean. If that is not achieved, then they must consider Indian private sector, which could at least churn out quality stuff.uddu wrote:Anthony must start cleaning from inside the MOD. Without the involvement of MOD officials it's impossible to conduct large scale corruption by any service.
The army is hit hard this time because their reliance on import of weaponry. A large portion of weaponary used by the Army is imported. Further imports will not solve the problem.
Time to have a look at Trichy Assault Rifle, MSMC, Arjun, TATA, AL, LCH, ALH and the like. Follow on orders for Pinaka can also be placed along with development of next generation of Pinaka-II, Akash-II and the like.
The artillery upgrade need to be speeded up with the indigenous guns. Hope the Bhim project is getting revived as well.
High time to go indigenous in a big way.
The matter is now in the media. So AKA has to order a CBI enquiry. Else, he would be held responsible.peter wrote:You are still missing the point. Where is the written complaint from General VKS now? If Anthony can order a CBI probe without a written complaint NOW why not back then?chackojoseph wrote:
The talks which transpired between VKS and TS was reported to AKA. AKA asks VKS to give in writing as otherwise there will be no proof (there is no hint that the tape was in the knowledge of AKA or VKS told him).
VKS says that he doesn't want to pursue the case. The trucks are not purchased.
As I said earlier it is inconsistent behavior by Anthony.
It must be abundantly clear why Gen VK Singh today finds himself in an unholy mess. He has violated the Omerta Code of the Power Circle. The one that dictates that once you’ve made it to the posh club of power insiders, you don’t talk about some things, such as the gravy train that everyone rides on and feeds off.
In the posh clubs where liveried waiters hover like friendly ghosts, and where moustachioed Generals and netas in their pressed bandhgalas and babus in their pin-stripe suits guffaw and talk pussy over their Patiala pegs, it is taboo to talk about money. Particularly the kind of obscene money that everyone gets a fair share of when deals are finalised.
Into that posh club, Gen VK Singh has blundered in like a barefoot dehati.
And, worse, he declines gratuitous invitations from fellow officers for him to become “one of them” by getting suited-booted up, refuses to clamber aboard their gravy train and help himself to the goodies – and, horror of horrors, goes so far as to initiate investigations into their own conduct unbecoming of officers. All this merely because they played by the “jobs for the boys” rules of the Power Club, and feathered their own nests.
VK Singh
If what it takes to get us even talk about the colossal mess we are in is for him to shake the government and our civil society out of our stupor, more power to you, Gen Singh. AFP
And now, he has begun focusing his Sauron eye on serving officers, who are in line to become Army Chief. Is the man mad, they wonder. How did we ever let him into the club, they fret.
Of course, there have been – and continue to be – honest men in the uniformed services, just as there are honest men in politics and in the civil service. But even when they themselves are scrupulously clean, they have all along abided by the Omerta Rule: even when they knew that other officers and netas and babu were pigging out on the trough, they chose to look the other way. Why blow the whistle and invite trouble, and risk losing their honour and their well-earned pension and the prospect of being invited to head some committee or a thinktank in the future?
Which is why the retired Lieutenant General whom Gen VK Singh accused of offering him a bribe cannot get his head around the fact that there are still a few good men in uniform. “Army chiefs before you have accepted money, and army chiefs after you will, so why do you not?” he asked Gen VK Singh, when he made the offer of a Rs 14 crore bribe.
Today, Gen VK Singh, close to retirement and perhaps sensing that he has been robbed of his dignity in the battle with the government over his date of birth, has gone rogue. He has broken the Omerta Code of silence and is telling the world of the horrors he has seen within the Army fortresses. And it isn’t a pretty picture.
Fellow officers are shaking their heads and tut-tutting into their Scotch on the rocks. Why rock the boat, they ask him. Why invite inglorious attention to what we’ve tucked away out of sight –and put on a show of glorious make-believe? Why, oh why, can’t you just look away?
The political establishment in its entirety is equally appalled. The General has become a guerilla warrior, they thunder. He ought to abide by the code, yield to civilian supremacy, and either stay silent or be sacked. In the same way that they rubbished Team Anna’s campaign against corruption last year and continued with their rollicking party in Parliament, they have ganged up against Gen VK Singh. In words eerily reminiscent of last year (in the context of Anna Hazare’s campaign), Lalu Prasad Yadav wonders if Gen VK Singh is angling for a career in politics.
And what of the media and sections of civil society? They too have their ‘angles’: Gen VK Singh’s motives are suspect, they say. Why did he not act in all the time that he was in office, why now, they wonder. In the same way that they turned on Team Anna and made mincemeat of that campaign, they are shredding Gen VK Singh to pieces – when, in fact, the focus then and now should have been on the sky-high corruption that they exposed.
It’s a bizarre, perverted world if we are asked to tolerate the status quo, even when we know it to be venal, merely because the alternative – of shaking things up — makes us queasy. Because it violates Section 2, Subsection 3(a) of the club rules.
For sure, Gen VK Singh has gone rogue. But I say: more power to you, Gen Singh. Even if, as some have suggested, you are doing it only for megalomaniacal reasons — or out of a sense of pettiness. Even though I can’t quite understand why you waited until now to say these things, I’m just plain glad you are saying them at least now.
Any self-respecting civilian government or military force or civil society ought to be celebrating Gen VK Singh for being a true warrior and taking on the Enemy Within. The problems that he highlights are our collective problems. Those problems have turned us into a banana republic far more than anything Gen Singh has done in severing the cosy, comfortable, clubby relationship between the military and the civilian administration.
If what it takes to get us even talk about the colossal mess we are in is for him to shake the government and our civil society out of our stupor, more power to you, Gen Singh.
Look at the pigs squeal.Clamour for action against V.K. Singh grows
The chorus for strong action against Army chief V.K. Singh grew louder on Thursday after reports that he had sought a CBI probe into a serving officer based on a letter written by a Trinamool Congress MP. While the BJP doubted the timing of the disclosure, the RJD said he was ‘out of his mind’.
http://www.asianage.com/india/clamour-a ... -grows-253
Poor fellows don't know that the letter from TMC MP is addressed toPranav wrote:Look at the pigs squeal.Clamour for action against V.K. Singh grows
The chorus for strong action against Army chief V.K. Singh grew louder on Thursday after reports that he had sought a CBI probe into a serving officer based on a letter written by a Trinamool Congress MP. While the BJP doubted the timing of the disclosure, the RJD said he was ‘out of his mind’.
http://www.asianage.com/india/clamour-a ... -grows-253
I lost all respect for BJP after "coffingate". I am not surprised. 2G scam also has links to BJP. Both BJP and Congress are corrupt but there are clean individuals in both parties.merlin wrote:Exactly. Precisely. Completely disappointed in BJP's actions.SRoy wrote:^^
Sorry for OT post, but this party has lost my support after the VKS incident. No more voting them.
There is no reason to bring BJP into the picture and make it a political game. This issue is being run by Congress, and trying to needlessly bring in BJP just lets the real culprits off the hook.alexis wrote:I lost all respect for BJP after "coffingate". I am not surprised. 2G scam also has links to BJP. Both BJP and Congress are corrupt but there are clean individuals in both parties.merlin wrote:"SRoy"^^
Sorry for OT post, but this party has lost my support after the VKS incident. No more voting them.
Exactly. Precisely. Completely disappointed in BJP's actions.
My understanding was that he retired after this incident. However, my arguement does not change. Any complaint has to be documented. AKA (being a conservative and a "safety - first" person) wanted a written complaint, which was not provided. I agree with Chacko that both parties are guilty of act of omission.SRoy wrote:^^
alexis,
The bribe giver was not COAS Gen. VKS's subordinate, in the sense he was out of service.
.... Banerjee told a news channel, Star Ananda, in Delhi that a year back, after getting information of graft from reliable sources, he had written to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Defence Minister AK Antony about “illegal or disputed deals”.
“Unfortunately, I have received only acknowledgement. I am very surprised that I did not get any letter from them. But the media has got my letter from their tables,” Banerjee said.
The fact that 3G and GOI had to resort to, what we call in Mumbai, "Chindhi giri" of digging up some application form written by a 14 year old boy in mid-sixties shows that there really isn't much material available with GOI and "3G-system" on VKS that can be used to frame him, blackmail him and chastise him if he is insubordinate. If they could dig up some application form, then they must have searched for something more serious and damning for sure. The fact that they could not find anything else, shows that EITHER VKS has lived a very Dharmik life with integrity OR he is really smart and knows how to cover all his deeds. While I favor the former inference, in either case he is truly deserving person.Murugan wrote:And VKS is doing right from day one he took charge. Well before the age row erupted.
Yes. He is. So marginally better. However in all the incidents, he seems to be "late" in his actions. He should have pursued vigorously in both DOB issue and the bribe earlier.Atri wrote:
VKS is doing all this while in office. So no one can say that he did nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls5Wd-Sp6HwMurugan wrote: On 11 March 2011, Singh was inducted into the United States Army War College (Class of 2001 graduate) International Fellows Hall of Fame. He is the 33rd International Fellow and the first Indian Armed Forces officer to be inducted.
I am sorry but the only person who is late is you -- by far -- in catching on -- the age row has been brewing for 6 years, the rest of anti-corruption clean up drive -- for 2 yearsalexis wrote:Yes. He is. So marginally better. However in all the incidents, he seems to be "late" in his actions. He should have pursued vigorously in both DOB issue and the bribe earlier.Atri wrote:
VKS is doing all this while in office. So no one can say that he did nothing.