Indian Army : News and Discussion

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Rahul M
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

^^^ take everything in that story, including the part about lookouts with a large sack of salt.
at most it is some chowkidar with the instructions 'koi aye to bata dena' that has been exaggerated by sekhar gupta and co.
vera_k wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:And India is not Pindistan, Rank and file, Generals of Army which are from Indian society will never agree for a coup. which a population 1250 million, a coup cannot be just undertaken by a capturing a few blocks of Delhi.
Having heard this type of sentiment often, what are the reasons that a coup is not possible in India?

All it needs is for the government to be arrested, and a new government to be appointed in its place. Indira Gandhi managed to impose the Emergency using these tactics of putting one set of civilian leaders in jail.
a rather facetious argument. the army ain't indira gandhi.

follow this discussion viewtopic.php?p=1220476#p1220476

then do educate yourself with this book. viewtopic.php?p=1227856#p1227856
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

AdityaM wrote:I am still surprised that there are lookouts who keep a watch on army movement towards the Capital.

what an uneventful life they must be leading (aside from this episode)!
AdityaM, that part is correct and they dont keep watch on Army movement, but anything out of ordinary.Their life is nondescript and boring but do a hell lot of work which is difficult to imagine.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by member_20317 »

my god shekhar gupta has also claimed that the report was based on facts (till he got onto his udaan khatola) and that GoI is in a denial mode (poor guy is feeling like a crucified messiah now)
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by ManuT »

Shaker Gupta has done some work.

In the past, he has rightly called, based on their service conditions, para-militatries as orphans, in terms of benefits and their interests being taken care of by the system.

I'll grant him that he in interviewing he puts the subject at ease and opens him up. His program 'talk while you walk' (when I have watched it in the past), was worth some post-analysis but not good at projecting.

But he dropped the ball on this one, (and a few other balls elsewhere). To me, in the NDTV interview in question he seemed a little contrite and defensive. He could be covering up anything - his bad call/superiors/for juniors.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Rahul M wrote:then do educate yourself with this book. viewtopic.php?p=1227856#p1227856
I'll try to find the book here, but the argument presented in the thread isn't very convincing. IG would have come up with some constitutional mechanism to prolong the Emergency. For that matter, there wasn't a rebellion against the Brits after WW2 either. Perhaps the extreme tendency to be reactive plays a big part in preserving the government of the day.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Virupaksha »

vera_k wrote:
Rahul M wrote:then do educate yourself with this book. viewtopic.php?p=1227856#p1227856
I'll try to find the book here, but the argument presented in the thread isn't very convincing. IG would have come up with some constitutional mechanism to prolong the Emergency. For that matter, there wasn't a rebellion against the Brits after WW2 either. Perhaps the extreme tendency to be reactive plays a big part in preserving the government of the day.
Independence of India was declared 1-2 days after the navy mutiny.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

lookouts are probably just outlying police stations who have orders to warn lutyens delhi so assorted carpetbaggers can head for the hills should anything hostile approach - not necessarily the army, but you know things like 10,000 aggrieved people on some dilli chalo, dilli ko aag lagao kind of mood on any issue.

the political elites will not budge from their destructive activities until something like that happens, as in half of lutyens delhi burned to the ground by angry mobs, people chasing minister/MP types through the leafy streets with lathis....barking mutts can provide live coverage from a safe vantage point under 'breaking news'
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

vera_k wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:And India is not Pindistan, Rank and file, Generals of Army which are from Indian society will never agree for a coup. which a population 1250 million, a coup cannot be just undertaken by a capturing a few blocks of Delhi.
Having heard this type of sentiment often, what are the reasons that a coup is not possible in India?

All it needs is for the government to be arrested, and a new government to be appointed in its place. Indira Gandhi managed to impose the Emergency using these tactics of putting one set of civilian leaders in jail.
There are large and distributed armed bodies and organisations that are not under control of the Army. This system has been setup over the years because in the early days the politicians like JLN et al were very jittery about a take over by the Army as was frequently happening in our neighborhood.

This is also why the babus humilate the Army at every opportunity they get and often also contrive opportunities to get because they know that the Army will never hit back and the politicos will always protect the babus and vice versa.

The cream in kickbacks is always taken by the politicos and the babus. The uniformed morons only get the crumbs.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Atri »



Perhaps this is how St. AKA reacted to firing by PMO and 10 janpath, upon revealing the information by VKS about 14 crore tatra truck bribe offer..
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Prem »

As they say follow the money, there is distinct possibility that folks behind the IA story might be the ones who could not make money out of MRCA deal and now want share in the booty in IA procurements. Navt's acquisition are few and different , AF wont come up with big order now for a while and this leaves only the IA to be looted by the corrupts. The fight will intensify only as you cant have thieves sitting at ease knowing very well that Billions of Bucks can be stolen by knocking down the one or 2 doors after removing the honest watchmen guarding them. Indian Politheifians are now becoming brazen and overstepping , betraying every sense of loyalty to the nation.

Politheifian = Theif +Politcian
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

Utterly sorry for the OT but Jhujar saab, shouldn't it be poly-thiefian? Thiefs of all hues!
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Jhujar to confirm Philip and your take that its to get the honest folks guarding the doors here is on more lifafa against AKA.

AKA honest but indecisive

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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by ASPuar »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 552016.cms
Troop movement: Armymen laugh at bureaucrats for hitting panic button

TNN | Apr 6, 2012, 02.17AM IST


NEW DELHI:

A day after a news report about alleged unauthorized military movements kicked up a row, defence ministry sources picked holes in the conspiracy theory, stressing that it was silly that sections of the government acquiesced in the scare about the intent of units when they were only engaged in routine exercises.

A senior officer said that even if a "reckless" Army chief were to think of flexing muscles, it wouldn't make much sense for a few hundred troops to be moved from Hisar and Agra.

Over 6,000 trained soldiers are posted within Delhi throughout the year as part of the larger Army deployment. Several others pointed to the fact that thousands more soldiers were in the national capital during the period. These troops had come to Delhi for the Army Day celebrations and the Republic Day parade. Thousands of trained troops arrive in the national capital weeks ahead of January 15, the Army Day.

Sections in the government made the authorities press the panic button by representing the movement of two units on January 16 as a sinister manouever by the supporters of Army chief General V K Singh.

There are other reasons also why many in the government find it mysterious that supposedly seasoned people bought into the suggestion that the movement of two units was actually meant to be muscle flexing by supporters of the Army chief.

Many in the defence ministry pointed out that it would have been an extremely foolish step to mobilize troops along the crowded national highways over several hours, if the intent was to flex muscles. Officers also drew attention to the fact that every unit of the Indian Army carries out mobilization exercises at least once every quarter, since the Operation Parakram days.

"Why would you want to bring a few hundred soldiers via road, taking several hours," an officer asked.

When India mobilized its troops to the Pakistan border in the wake of the December 13, 2001 terrorist attack on Parliament, serious problems with swift mobilization were exposed. Worst was the extreme slowness with which troops mobilized to the border.

Ever since Operation Parakram, all Army units carry out regular mobilization exercises. These involve the troops mobilizing vehicles, weapons, rations, fuel etc to figure out preparedness. The units move out of their base and go several kilometers ahead before turning back. Then a review is carried out. What the mechanized infantry unit based in Hisar and the 50 Para Regiment based in Agra did was the same - they moved ahead as part of regular mobilization.
Some babus chaddis are about to get burned.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

Would like to use some choice words ....

Try and guess which Turd will put a headline like

Did General Singh have prior information about troop movement story?
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by member_23061 »

When I read the story, the intent was indeed to portray malicious intentions on the part of Army. He left the word unsaid, but there was no mistaking his intent.

This is a classic psy-ops maneuver IMO. I don't understand why the arms lobbies are going overboard with the hit jobs ....... don't they know the story of the boy who cried 'wolf'? No one is going to believe their insane stories from now on ... So I think we should thank SG for indirectly helping out General VKS.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by member_23061 »

Surya wrote:Would like to use some choice words ....

Try and guess which Turd will put a headline like

Did General Singh have prior information about troop movement story?
Guess 1 : TOI

Guess 2 : India Today
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Idea was to create an image that the Indian military also may think of such a thing in an established democracy.
The idea has been thrown to the outside world.

The people behind this may be under the impression that IA is being put under pressure (DOB controversy, procurement, scams etc) and in retaliation they could make this move. Only thing is that for IA these may be small things and they do not change the institution.

But this coalition which is after the IA seems to be working for outsiders
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

India today
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by putnanja »

I think the Gen VKS was asked about the troop movement by AKA/NSA etc sometime in Jan/feb , and hence he might have made that comment about giving wrong meaning to troop movements in his march interview.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Journalist don't go out on a limb to malign the military forces. So some powerful backing is here. What is going on, India Today, Tribune, Ind Express and who else? We know some individual news reporters in addition to the media outlets.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by kshatriya »

ramana wrote:Journalists don't go out on a limb to malign the military forces. So some powerful backing is here. What is going on, India Today, Tribune, Ind Express and who else? We know some individual news reporters in addition to the media outlets.
CNN - IBN is filled with all the junk stories about IA. And Today it was about how the Army cant fight for over 10 days... Looks like the Saint is the target.. It was indirectly hinted by some of their "Experts"
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

The pointer is not at Ministers or our forces.. All these pointers are at the very sense of our aam-ness. The lesser the aam, better would be apple-ish media.

can't blame the media alone, since they have a selling point in that they find millions of aams buying these junk.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Kapil »

They are doing this to the Army that was the first one to stop and reverse the Japanese and the Germans.
The Army that created a new nation in 1971 and let 93,000 POWs live.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by hnair »

I hope they inform these "look outs" about next Republic Day.

We dont want the security guys galloping down Rajpath with the sorry-asses of their "protectees" held high as the giant coup-parade orchestrated by CoAS, CNS, CoAF, schoolchildren, tribals, Khadi department and a handful of camels roll down towards them.

Sucker Das Gupta's chaddi is around his ankles and he knows it.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Everyone is having field day with own off and leg spins.

Lt Gen Panag's tweets will send shivers down those without spines!!!
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by svenkat »

There seems to be some truth in Shekhar Guptas article.

Few facts emerge on troop movement
The movement of the two units was noted with concern in this context, a senior Intelligence Bureau official admitted to The Hindu , but insisted that “at no stage was the possibility of a coup, or any attempt to overawe the government, ever discussed. We worried about indiscipline, or a show of support by some elements — and it's our job to consider those possibilities.”
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/movement-may-have-been-cover-against-sacking-hints-lt-gen-panag/933282/0
Lt Gen Panag’s five tweets:

5/5: Night of Jan 16th: A Pre-emptive demonstration with a Cover Plan to pre-empt likely impending decision!

4/5: Units/fmns undertaking Deception or Demostration ops do not know the real aim. Cover Plan gives credibility. Sr Cdrs know the real aim.

3/5: Demonstration in mil terms implies to show/demonstrate something to alter enemy decision making. Done as a credible operation.

2/5: Cover Plan in mil terms implies to give a credible cover to operations undertaken to deceive the enemy.

1/5: Pre emption in military terms implies acting before the enemy does to upstage him from implementing his strategy, plan or operation.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by svenkat »

One has to admit with sadness after lt.gen. panag's tweets,that things are not perfect in IA.Theres an unsavoury struggle inside IA.

In a way it is good because theres a clean up taking place,a clean up long due and necessary.
Last edited by svenkat on 06 Apr 2012 10:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

Subramaniam swamy tweets (TIFWIW):

>>@Swamy39
" Shekhar Gupta had four sessions with PC in the Ministry to prepare the story. Editor or steno?"
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

vera_k wrote:
Rahul M wrote:then do educate yourself with this book. viewtopic.php?p=1227856#p1227856
I'll try to find the book here, but the argument presented in the thread isn't very convincing. IG would have come up with some constitutional mechanism to prolong the Emergency. For that matter, there wasn't a rebellion against the Brits after WW2 either. Perhaps the extreme tendency to be reactive plays a big part in preserving the government of the day.
the relevance to this thread being ?
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

"Coup-ioser and coup-ioser"! That the regime panicked like a thief in the night,who hears a noise when looting a house,is now almost a certainty.The "noise" however that disturbed the thief and made him wet his dhoti is another matter.Was it accidental, incidental,or intentional- a warning,to "lay off" the chief ,if one goes by Lt.Gen.Panag's tweet?

Who in the regime would best be able to determine the truth of the "noise"? Undoubtedly policeman PC with the vast eavesdropping and internal intel gathering capabilities at his command.If the "Swamy's" info is accurate,and he is rarely off the mark,SG's alleged 4 sittings with the policeman are now perfectly in line with events.SG was indeed given a scoop,but given the credibility of the establishment today,it failed to deliver the expected KO punch on the chief,backfired badly, and the scoop resembled mere melted "I scream" than 24K gold.

This will not be the end of the affair.More will come,as they say,"the truth will out",huge stakes are at risk,which have a global angle,remember that deals to the tune of $80B must be finalised asap.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Can the Lok Sabha MPs summon Shekhar Gupta or do they need a JPC for that?
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

ramana wrote:Can the Lok Sabha MPs summon Shekhar Gupta or do they need a JPC for that?
Standing Committee on Defense can summon any one before it to give evidence. Likewise JPC which is Committee consisting of both members of the house with specific purpose.

The question is Will they?? Will it constitute breach of Journalistic privilege and ethics to keep source confidential?? Is there any such thing written down in Law for the Journalists as it is in case of MPs??

Inc would surely oppose it.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

It might be important to make Shekhar Gupta tell the MPs what he knows for he printed a standing by statement next day. They should summon him in national interests. And it will put paid to future nakre by other journalists.

He need not reveal his sources but he has to tell his story to some one responsible under oath lest he lies again.

Right now he has to bring more facts or resign from Ind Exp as the editor.

Ethics requires it.

Where is Justice Katju who pontificates on everything expect journalist ethics?
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Shekhar Gupta has lost the moral compass and needs to resign for the good of the media.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

svenkat wrote:There seems to be some truth in Shekhar Guptas article.

Few facts emerge on troop movement
The movement of the two units was noted with concern in this context, a senior Intelligence Bureau official admitted to The Hindu , but insisted that “at no stage was the possibility of a coup, or any attempt to overawe the government, ever discussed. We worried about indiscipline, or a show of support by some elements — and it's our job to consider those possibilities.”
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/movement-may-have-been-cover-against-sacking-hints-lt-gen-panag/933282/0
Lt Gen Panag’s five tweets:

5/5: Night of Jan 16th: A Pre-emptive demonstration with a Cover Plan to pre-empt likely impending decision!

4/5: Units/fmns undertaking Deception or Demostration ops do not know the real aim. Cover Plan gives credibility. Sr Cdrs know the real aim.

3/5: Demonstration in mil terms implies to show/demonstrate something to alter enemy decision making. Done as a credible operation.

2/5: Cover Plan in mil terms implies to give a credible cover to operations undertaken to deceive the enemy.

1/5: Pre emption in military terms implies acting before the enemy does to upstage him from implementing his strategy, plan or operation.
panag is lying through his teeth.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:It might be important to make Shekhar Gupta tell the MPs what he knows for he printed a standing by statement next day. They should summon him in national interests. And it will put paid to future nakre by other journalists.

He need not reveal his sources but he has to tell his story to some one responsible under oath lest he lies again.

Right now he has to bring more facts or resign from Ind Exp as the editor.

Ethics requires it.

Where is Justice Katju who pontificates on everything expect journalist ethics?
The sources are wearing a dhoti.

katju has been suddenly overcome by a very highly developed sense of self preservation onleee. The required hall mark of every grateful pensioner.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by nelson »

Lt Gen retd Panag and his five tweets on the subject reeks of personal vendetta. Someone accosted him with this statement, on twitter only, he chose not to reply. From the day of publishing the report Lt Gen retd Panag has been defending Shekhar Gupta, saying that he might be having followup stories and therefore the last word on this.

May be he is in the BS camp.
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Re: Indian Army : News and Discussion

Post by sum »

Gen Singh's other recommendations also come up against a Babu wall:
Babus now oppose General Singh's vision for MoD
The ongoing battle between Indian Army [ Images ] chief General V K Singh and the ministry of defence has now spread to the level of policy making, high-level sources in the government told Rediff.com

The fundamental issue in the psychological battle General Singh has waged against the government is that he wants radical changes made in the way arms deals are struck in India.

General Singh and other retired and serving army officers would declare victory if military officers are part of the defence secretary's team when decisions on arms purchases are made at the MoD.

Sources have told Rediff.com that the important sub-committee of the Task Force on National Security has recommended that officers of the defence forces be appointed at the level of director in the ministry of defence.


It is a baby step, but an important one.

This would dramatically change the perception of the MoD in the eyes of India's defence personnel.

But this recommendation is being challenged ferociously. There have been reports emanating that the controversies swirling around the army chief have cast their shadows on the deliberations of the task force on national security, which was set up last July.

In August 2011, General Singh briefed the task force, providing a comprehensive view of the issues concerning the army. He told members of the task force that there was a breakdown in the Indian Army's procurement policy.

Surprisingly, the task force did not act urgently and bring the issue to the prime minister's notice.

The task force seems to have treated General Singh's concerns in routine fashion. It appears the task force, which is headed by former Cabinet secretary Naresh Chandra, one of India's distinguished civil servants, is awaiting a formal completion of its assignment. It is expected to submit its report by the end of April.

Government sources claim a group consisting of retired diplomats and civil servants have opposed the inclusion of army officers in the MoD
.
What is the reason for opposing IA in the MoD?? :-?
Rahul Bedi, the well-known defence expert and correspondent for Jane's Defence Weekly, says, "Since the last 20, 30 years experts have given advice to the government to induct uniformed men in the MoD. It's frightening to see delays in taking such decisions. The way this situation can escalate is very frightening. I am not saying that there is going to be a military takeover, but the morale of the soldiers is likely to be adversely affected."

"As it is," he added, "the Indian soldier looks upon the babus (civilian bureaucrats) and politicians as chors, and this is not going to change. This (the opposition to induct military officers at the MoD) is only going to reinforce his belief and his dislike of the MoD and the babus of the MoD and the political class."
:lol:

When officers of India's armed forces sit along with the babus, Bedi says a certain responsibility and accountability will be imposed upon this newly formed establishment to make change come about.
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