Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 09 May 2012 15:44

As per the first even sentence I typed out from DOB issue. He is good and much much beter then the previous some we had. He has also been effective is putting across changes in terms of indigenous equipment, game changer (sort of) when he went to court etc. So, How is that I do not respect him?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Kapil » 09 May 2012 15:54

Chacko,

I think it will be better for all of us if you could direct these questions at yourself rather than forum members.
Most of this thread has turned into a correction of your innocent-babe-in-the-woods semantic and linguistic distortions.
We try to discuss serious issues,you provoke the hair trigger guys,this throws the thread off track and in turn keeps serious ,valuable contributors to the Army Thread away.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 09 May 2012 16:02

Kapil wrote:Chacko,

I think it will be better for all of us if you could direct these questions at yourself rather than forum members.
Most of this thread has turned into a correction of your innocent-babe-in-the-woods semantic and linguistic distortions.
We try to discuss serious issues,you provoke the hair trigger guys,this throws the thread off track and in turn keeps serious ,valuable contributors to the Army Thread away.


I have not triggered hair trigger guys? Need they be triggered? Instead look at yourself. You have tried 3 times, you addressed me, with hostility and sarcasm. If you have a axe to grind, why don't you let it out. I have met you just once in 2004 (first BR meet when I came back). Since then I neither remember your face and am not aware have crossed path. Why is that you are so hostile? You too have a choice of keeping my posts hidden with this forum software. Why is that you choose to pick? it is you who tried to show that i am trying to show vks in bad light. When i reply, you have a problem. Why is that? I am sure, i can take this to another thread. But, you needto reply to my original question. how is my question "twisting."

Added later...

I will take your advice because you are a webmaster, which I just noticed on your profile.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 09 May 2012 18:44

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ar ... rs_1686345

Arms ready? Antony fails to convince RS
Published: Wednesday, May 9, 2012, 11:00 IST
By DNA Correspondent


As he came under attack from the opposition on the chinks in defence armoury, defence minister AK Antony came out with a weak defence that the situation is now being corrected.

“That was in the past. Now for the last four years, we have not been surrendering any money to the finance ministry. We have been spending all the funds allocated to us,” he said while responding to the debate on the grants for the defence ministry in the Rajya Sabha.

Antony, however, added that he shares the service chiefs assessment that the current allocation of Rs1,93,000 crore is inadequate and needs to be enhanced. “They want Rs47,000 crore more, I also agree that this should be increased,” he said.

But the defence minister sought to put the deficiencies pointed by the army chief VK Singh in his letter to the PM in perspective. “I have looked at the past records. There is nothing new in what he has written. Right from the time of independence, the army chiefs have been asking for more,” he said. “But then, irrespective of these shortcomings, the Indian Army is the best in the world,” he added.

On the major aspects of criticism by the opposition, Antony conceded that there have been gaps and there is still some time before these could be filled up. “Yes, the army needs a new gun,” he said while accepting that the last time a new gun was bought was in 1986 — the Bofors gun. He also admitted that the army needs a new gun for its air defence, but said the procurement of this new weaponry had to be aborted at the last stage because of corruption aspects that had surfaced.

He also shared the opposition’s concern about the changed geo-strategic realities and the “disturbed neighbourhood” and pointed out that for the 12th plan period, these aspects have been taken into consideration while framing the course of action.

Antony said a new defence production policy has been put in place and this would encourage the participation of the Indian private sector in joint ventures with the defence public sector undertakings and ordnance factories. “We want to reduce our dependence on foreign vendors,” he said.


Hadn't the finance ministry quite coolly rejected the proposal for new corps? Seems they have been jolted out of their stupor.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby peter » 09 May 2012 18:58

ASPuar wrote:
Hadn't the finance ministry quite coolly rejected the proposal for new corps? Seems they have been jolted out of their stupor.


Pen is mightier than the sword! Talk about the power of a letter!!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vasu raya » 09 May 2012 19:05

Turning the T scam into an opportunity?

Of the whole issue the damage due to corruption by BEML among others stands out to be,

1) the over priced truck

2) its customization and improvization for Indian conditions or the lack thereof over time

The competition from the private sector giant Tata delivers a similar product better suited to Indian conditions with a lower price tag.

Now, instead of lowering the price, if the Army HQ which has already allocated funds with Tatra prices
in mind, have them requisition Tatas with more technology specifically hybrid engines, note that the Tata chairman is also on the record stating that they intend to bring in hybrid technologies into the Indian market but at the moment of time it is probihitively expensive to do so and the Indian consumer may not be willing to pay as much. Tata is already investing in the technology however its currently focusing on abroad markets.

Japan which is a world leader in hybrid technologies is engaging with us, we also supply rare earth
minerals (used in building the batteries used by hybrid engines) to them after China stopped the same overnight. Tata or rather India has a source for such technologies by forming JVs.

As things emerge,

Army might redeem itself of this corruption saga and pursue modernization efforts, decreases its own dependence on Oil and hence improving logistics

Tata might get that break of introducing hybrid technologies to the Indian market, with time the technology becomes cheaper to access and the trucks on Indian roads might contribute to less pollution and hence derivative healthcare costs

This intiative gels with the goal of defense offset policy, improving or providing opportunities to the local industry, which in part drives the GDP where defence budget is a percent of it. In a way its self-serving to the Army.

Politically, this is just a bonus, with Hillary asking is to reduce dependence on Iranian oil, we could in turn ask them to engage the Japanese with us for greener technologies

Then the flaws,

will the price of Tata's replacement truck for Tatra in its hybrid version costs as much if not more as the current over priced BEML's Tatra? hopefully the financial MBA's can take over

Disclaimer: Tata as mentioned in the article represents the private sector in general, there is no personal interest

anecdotal: US used a 747 retired from Air India for its laser BMD program, later the IAF reacted by taking over all the subsequently retired Air India 747's

if China is embargoing its rare earth minerals export for a reason, will the IA react? by being proactive in adopting greener technologies, who knows China might show up on the NE border with hybrid vehicles easing up its logistics and you might find yourself reacting to this by paying more for those technologies but starting late just as the GOI is reacting on the Infra front

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 09 May 2012 19:26

the quickest way for the army to induct hybrid tech is to buy hybrid staff cars, or any light vehicles normally used on bases or urban environments, or indeed fork lifts and other base logistics vehicles
allows tata to build up knowledge base and then incorporate into more heavy duty vehicles used in off-base conditions

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SaiK » 09 May 2012 19:33

wow.. nothing but feeding the corrupted minds with more options.

greener tech, the chippandas are way ahead in terms of investments and projects.

if IA or our forces need to think greener, get DRDO into action, and enable them.. rather doing this tango with firangies and their equipments.

There are security and mil angle, and at the same time there technology angle.. one feeds into another. What it does not satisfy is the nexus between agents, babooze, and the inside jobers.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 09 May 2012 19:41

Im surprised that Tata Motors couldnt produce a truck that met the GSQR?

And honestly, I think allow ALL Indian industry to participate in the weapons business. Why only DRDO?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Ankit Desai » 09 May 2012 20:07

ASPuar wrote:Im surprised that Tata Motors couldnt produce a truck that met the GSQR?


TATA with Mahindra produced a truck and they were in competition with TATRA. And that's where whole TATRA's influence in defense circle came up.

I am not saying that TATA and Mahindra are behind the TATRA episode but, TATRA was alone in the market back in 80's and 90's. With the TATA and Mahindra in race in late 1990's and 2000's, that made TATRA to go a step forward and bribe episode.

-Ankit

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Kapil » 10 May 2012 08:33

The TATAs have some sort of issues/history of not being selected as suppliers to MoD.
Maybe its their no bribe policy.
I also discovered another nugget--apparently the Tata Group is morally happy with making bits and pieces of hardware..benign stuff but they will not like making weapons.
Their JV pursuits are also on this track.
So they'll make trucks,they'll make FICV chassis etc but they won't make or even do r and d for the turret and weapons fit.

This is unwritten policy.

Of course they are doing a lot in EW but they must consider it a moral weapon.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vasu raya » 10 May 2012 09:19

@Lalmohan
As long as a GSQR can list the green technologies and the fin min approves, all well and good, just that ROI is very high on fuel guzzlers e.g., trucks, if hybrid technologies are proved on off-road mil trucks, the Indian truck's context is addressed fully

As far as maturity of technology goes,

Here are a couple of old links gleaned from wiki related to military vehicles,

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-02-13-humvee_x.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/hmmwv-he.htm

@SaiK
This fits in the Defence offsets process which is our current state of art against corruption? one needs right people anyways

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 10 May 2012 12:30

ASPuar wrote:http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_arms-ready-antony-fails-to-convince-rs_1686345

Arms ready? Antony fails to convince RS
Published: Wednesday, May 9, 2012, 11:00 IST

“That was in the past. Now for the last four years, we have not been surrendering any money to the finance ministry. We have been spending all the funds allocated to us,” he said while responding to the debate on the grants for the defence ministry in the Rajya Sabha.




Blatant misrepresentation. Here are the capital outlay figures from last 4 years. As is clear, MoD was unable to spend the Budgeted amount for 2008 and 2009. He is hiding behind the scaled down Revised estimates that MoD prepares mid-year.

Image

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 10 May 2012 14:02

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 077112.cms

Tejinder Singh withdraws from SC plea against Army chief Gen V K Singh
PTI | May 10, 2012, 11.09AM IST

NEW DELHI: In a surprise move, retired Lt Gen Tejinder Singh today withdrew his petition from the Supreme Court seeking a CBI inquiry into the alleged misconduct of Army chief Gen V K Singh.

Appearing before a bench of justices P Sathasivam and J Chelameswar, senior counsel Rajiv Dhawan urged the court to grant permission for withdrawing the petition.

"Your lordships please don't open the file at all. Kindly grant me permission to withdraw the petition and move the appropriate forum," Dhawan urged the court.

Accordingly, the bench granted permission for withdrawal of the petition.

Tejinder Singh had approached the Supreme Court on April 25 seeking a CBI inquiry on the alleged role of the Army chief in the purported bugging of the defence minister's office and action against him for "misconduct".

The government has already denied reports of bugging.

The petition was filed days after the Army chief accused Tejinder Singh of offering him bribe of Rs 14 crore for purchase of Tatra trucks. Following the complaint by the Army chief, the CBI initiated a probe into the matter.

He had also accused the Army chief of professional misconduct by making "political statements" while holding the key post. He had alleged the Army chief had stated that the Maoist problem in the country is the creation of the government when the Centre had sought help of the Army in Naxal-affected areas.

Tejinder Singh had made the Army chief a party in his petition.

He has also filed a criminal defamation case against Gen V K Singh and four other senior Army officers in a trial court.


No surprise here. The surprise is that he (and his backers) had filed such a frivolous case in the first place. It would have been ripped to shreds in the Supreme Court, and so would whatever remains of Tejinder Singh's reputation.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 10 May 2012 17:06


chetak
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 10 May 2012 19:06

ASPuar wrote:Honest and incompetent is no better than dishonest. He has not even been able to provide Non Functional Financial Upgradation (NFFU) assured career progression scheme to his officers, something which EVERY other Group A service (defined as a service whose apex grade is 67000-79000) has now got. Armys apex grade is equivalent to Cabinet Secretary, but they still havent received NFFU.

Every civil servant gazetted officer in this country now retires at the grade of a Lieutenant General with equivalent pension, thanks to the NFFU scheme. Only 0.1% service officers receive this privilege. Why have defence officers been stiffed yet again? Because an UNDERSECRETARY in the Ministry of Defence rejected the proposal from the Chiefs of Staff committee, to include Military officers in NFFU, without showing the file to the Defence Secretary even.

So tell me, a man who doesnt know how his own ministry is undermining the armed forces, what good is he as a minister? Totally useless.



But still, the man is totally honest, no? :lol:

It will be of great comfort to our freezing Soldiers up on the siachen.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 10 May 2012 23:00

ASPuar, What 'appropriate forum' does the Lt Gen want to take the case to? NDTV with its packed audience?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 10 May 2012 23:22

@Ramana: Trust me. Without any locus at all, he wanted to tell the supreme court that a CBI enquiry should be made as to how the chief did this, and how he did that, how he went to court against the govt, and how he told the govt that the Army shouldnt be in anti naxal ops. But the fact is, hes still the chief. The govt has said repeatedly it has full faith in him. So who is Shri Tejinder Singh to place this petition before the court, when the Govt of India, of which the Army Chief is a senior officer, has not got any complaint against him?

Believe you me, if the case had been put to the court, Tejindar Singh would have had his pants fined off his posterior by the Supreme Court, and tossed out on his ear.

Already, the Metropolitan Magistrate whose court the defamation case came up in first has recused himself, due to the fact that Tejinders lawyer was pressurising him for a favourable order (a metropolitan magistrate is the juniormost level of court heirarchy, and occasionally senior lawyers browbeat them). What does this show, wrt Shri Tejindar Singh? A vexatious litigant, a man with an axe to grind, and obviously a fellow who will stop at nothing.

@Chetak: Precisely. But that notwithstanding, I still appreciate the fact that allegedly he has frustrated the plans of a lot of arms dealers currently active in this country. At least he IS honest, and isnt actively on the take on bogus stuff which is then palmed off to our troops. Or so I hope.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Philip » 10 May 2012 23:44

Yes,VKS...better late than never! The curtailing of his tenure (which saw him "out" the Tatra scam in particular) by a year must be rued by the wheeler-dealers,who one presumes are gnashing their teeth in despair and rage,esp. the Tatra scamsters. One Q though,with so much of evidence,why hasn't the BEML chief been either arrested,or suspended,or sent on forced leave? Is there a desperate attempt to cut losses and find scapegoats?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 10 May 2012 23:48

Philip,
I think Tatra is the second leg of Bofors. One part was unearthed in 1986 leading to fall of government and this one is still not clear.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 11 May 2012 00:59

Brothers-in-arms By Bharat Karnad

India should have reacted to the Siachen tragedy with prompt offers of material and expert help, and proposed an immediate meeting between Gen. Kayani and his Indian counterpart, Gen. V.K. Singh, to explore ideas the Pakistani COAS might have for resolving disputes and coexisting peacefully.


In the context of the Indian government once again whining about Washington not arm-twisting Islamabad enough to contain terrorist Hafiz Saeed and the Pakistani Lashkars to the visiting US secretary of state Hillary Clinton, making a case for restoring links between the armies of the two countries with shared regimental histories and background would appear to be quixotic.


In India-Pakistan relations, among the low hanging fruit are military-to-military links forged by such things as joint sports meets, visits by officers to parent regiments and, dare I mention, seats allotted to Pakistan Army officers at the National Defence College in Delhi.


Instead, the pettiness and small-mindedness encountered by Pakistani military-men posted to their high commission in Delhi is so sustained and unrelenting, it is a wonder more of them arriving here a little wary don’t turn bitter on the spot. That Indian defence attachés are similarly mistreated is no excuse.


Imagine the positive fallout from, say, encouraging the Pakistani defence attachés to observe our “integrated” military exercises, such as Operation Shoorveer now underway in the Punjab plains. It will help them experience at close quarters military formations being marshalled effectively by Indian commanders and to realistically compare their country’s capabilities and stamina with India’s. What’s there to be so secretive about? What new stuff could they possibly learn about our military that they don’t already know, or that departs hugely from how the Pakistani armed forces themselves practise fighting wars?


:eek: Are you f*#%ing kidding me ??? To support this outlandish idea he goes on and quotes....

It is amusing to recall, on this subject, what the late Israeli general, Moshe Dayan, said about the Indian and Pakistani armies. “They fight by the book,” he said, and, after a pause, with perfect comic timing, added, “the same book”.


I'am in a loss of words to even rebuke this kind of BS

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 11 May 2012 08:39

In India-Pakistan relations, among the low hanging fruit are military-to-military links forged by such things as joint sports meets, visits by officers to parent regiments and, dare I mention, seats allotted to Pakistan Army officers at the National Defence College in Delhi.

Guess the time has come to stop taking BK seriuosly or is this some uber-Chankian thing which mere mortals cannot understand?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 11 May 2012 11:00

Army officers, jawans involved in scuffle in Ladakh

NEW DELHI: Army officers and jawans based in Ladakh were involved in a scuffle during field firing, official sources said on Friday.

They said the scuffle took place between officers and jawans of an artillery unit deployed in Nyoma in Ladakh on Thursday night.

Commenting on the situation, Army headquarters said that, "Due to some administrative reasons, there was a scuffle in an artillery unit during field firing. The incident is under investigation and necessary action will be taken.

They said no casualties occurred during the scuffle.


:roll:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nits » 11 May 2012 14:45

Lt Gen (Retd) Tejinder Singh withdraws plea against Army chief Gen VK Singh

The Supreme Court on Thursday dismissed as withdrawn a writ petition by Lt Gen (Retd) Tejinder Singh seeking a CBI inquiry into Army chief Gen VK Singh's alleged role in the reported bugging of the defence minister's office despite the government denying any such incident.

The reluctance of a bench of Justices P Sathasivam and J Chelameswar forced the retired Army officer to withdraw his plea.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 11 May 2012 17:07


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/248 ... -camp.html

Jawans clash with officers in army camp in Leh

Leh, May 11, 2012, (PTI)

Tension gripped an army artillery regiment here after a group of officers and jawans clashed following an incident of alleged molestation involving a jawan, and the subsequent reported capturing of the armoury by the agitated soldiers.

The trigger for the clash took place late yesterday afternoon in Nyoma sub-district, located 150 kilometres from here, when a jawan allegedly misbehaved with the wife of a Major who subsequently beat him up, official sources said.

The officers and jawans of 226 Field Regiment were undergoing firing practice at this place.

The Major then did not permit other jawans to allow any medical treatment for the 'sahayak' fuelling anger among the personnel who objected, the sources said.

The news reached the Commanding Officer of the regiment who was camping in the nearby police guest house. He immediately reached the scene and gauging the mood shouted at the Major for his reluctance to allow the injured 'sahayak' being taken for treatment. Seeing this, the Major along with five of his officer colleagues beat the Commanding Officer, a Colonel, in front of the troops. This angered the jawans, who then went berserk and beat the other officers with sticks, the sources said.

The Commanding Officer was immediately shifted to Leh hospital. Nearly 40 to 50 jawans then started a search for the Major rank officers who attacked the CO. Two were found in nearby camp and were beaten up, the sources said, adding they were rescued after an intervention by the local police.

Three of the Majors were still hiding and are believed to have moved towards Chashool army camp located on Sino-India border, the sources said. The 226-Field Regiment Unit has been cordoned and senior officers of Leh-based 14 Corps have rushed to the scene, they said.

Tempers cooled down this afternoon when General Officer Commanding of the IIIrd Infantry division assured the jawans who had captured the armoury, that action will be taken against the erring officers, the sources said.

The sources said though the jawans had armoury under their control, no withdrawal of weapons has been resorted to.

Superintendent of Police (Leh) Vivek Gupta was camping in Nyoma along with heavy reinforcements following a report by the Sub-Divisional Magistrate that army jawans, armed with sticks and knives, were holding protest, the sources said.

Commenting on the situation, the Army Headquarters in Delhi said "due to some administrative reasons, there was a scuffle in an artillery unit during field firing. "The incident is under investigation and necessary action will be taken."


An unsavoury incident. Throws everyone in a bad light. The jawan, accused of molestation. The major, who a) resorted to fisticuffs, and b) refused evacuation of the jawan. The CO, who yelled at an officer who had just recovered from the shock of seeing his wife molested, in front of the men. The other officers, who attacked the CO (the CO's behaviour must have been disgusting to have caused OTHER officers to so far lose their cool as to attack their own colonel).

Prima facie, looks like:

1. The Jawan who molested the wife, will of course be charged for that offence.

2. The Major, who thrashed the jawan will be charged for doing so, though with the defence of grave and sudden provocation. He will face jail for sure.

3. The officers who attacked the CO will be charged for assault of a superior officer, grievous hurt, attempt to murder, etc. Theyre in for lots of jail time.

4. The jawans who mutinied will be charged with that offence, which carries a sentence of death.

5. The CO will likely be charged with dereliction of duty, and conduct unbecoming an officer, and chucked out of the army.

6. The unit itself, which may end up being disbanded, and its flag retired.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sanjeevpunj » 11 May 2012 17:57

^^^A very Neat analysis. Is this little spark all that is needed to disband a functional regiment? So unfortunate, doesn't spell good for anyone. As always, lust is the root cause of all the troubles.
A honest question to anyone who thinks the man who fistcuffed the soldier who was harassing his wife was indeed deserving the fistcuffs...what would you do if it was your wife instead of this man's wife?
Last edited by sanjeevpunj on 11 May 2012 18:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Lekhraj » 11 May 2012 18:00

Does not looks right?

What was the officers wife doing at the practice firing range? Families do not go with officers for firing practice.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sachin » 11 May 2012 18:30

ASPuar wrote:The unit itself, which may end up being disbanded, and its flag retired.

A neat sum up, with focus on the purely legal aspects :). But perhaps the Army may have to go for a detailed analysis on this. I dont think this was really a spontaneous reaction. There may be simmering problems out there. The treatment meted out to the Sahayak may have been the trigger. But the way the soldiers reacted to this,and how the junior officers teamed up and bashed up the Colonel all gives a picture that the "camraderie" was pretty much lost here. All folks concerned were waiting for an oppurtunity to bash up others. The Majors could not sense that the soldiers were waiting for an oppurtunity, and the Colonel did not know that the Majors were waiting for an oppurtunity :).

The concept of Sahayak may also need a relook here. If this was said to be a way of a soldier getting to know an officer's family better, looks like at least here that was not the case. The officer who can insist that an injured Sahayak should not be given medical treatment also does not seem to gel well with the concept.

Aside, the narration of the event some how reminded me of Mangal Pandey and his actions in front of his regiment's quarter guard. And very rarey does the local civil police get a chance to intervene in a military scuffle.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby merlin » 11 May 2012 18:31

ASPuar wrote:Prima facie, looks like:

1. The Jawan who molested the wife, will of course be charged for that offence.

2. The Major, who thrashed the jawan will be charged for doing so, though with the defence of grave and sudden provocation. He will face jail for sure.

3. The officers who attacked the CO will be charged for assault of a superior officer, grievous hurt, attempt to murder, etc. Theyre in for lots of jail time.

4. The jawans who mutinied will be charged with that offence, which carries a sentence of death.

5. The CO will likely be charged with dereliction of duty, and conduct unbecoming an officer, and chucked out of the army.

6. The unit itself, which may end up being disbanded, and its flag retired.


I think 1, 2 and 3 will happen. 4 and 6 definitely will NOT happen and 5 may or may not happen.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 11 May 2012 18:51

Sachin wrote:A neat sum up, with focus on the purely legal aspects :). But perhaps the Army may have to go for a detailed analysis on this. I dont think this was really a spontaneous reaction. There may be simmering problems out there. The treatment meted out to the Sahayak may have been the trigger. But the way the soldiers reacted to this,and how the junior officers teamed up and bashed up the Colonel all gives a picture that the "camraderie" was pretty much lost here. All folks concerned were waiting for an oppurtunity to bash up others. The Majors could not sense that the soldiers were waiting for an oppurtunity, and the Colonel did not know that the Majors were waiting for an oppurtunity :).

The concept of Sahayak may also need a relook here. If this was said to be a way of a soldier getting to know an officer's family better, looks like at least here that was not the case. The officer who can insist that an injured Sahayak should not be given medical treatment also does not seem to gel well with the concept.

Aside, the narration of the event some how reminded me of Mangal Pandey and his actions in front of his regiment's quarter guard. And very rarey does the local civil police get a chance to intervene in a military scuffle.


Simmering problems more likely than not are poor administration by the Command (CO). A few points:

1. A molestation bid on a mans wife will likely, almost certainly provoke a violent response. His refusal to send the man for medical attention was also likely his not having yet overcome the rage at the act of molestation, and with a few moments calm thought he would have thought the better of it, as there was no alternative to this. Possibly he feared administrative censure if the injuries of the man were revealed to be the result of a beating. Possibly the mans injuries werent very severe, and the reason he was being sent for checkup was to record the beating. Either way, he acted on the basis of sudden provocation, and probably was getting around to thinking the better of what he had done (it is an offence under the army act to hit a subordinate), and realising the consequences.

2. Until the CO turned up and started blathering away, it seems there was only festering displeasure amongst the men, expressed. After the CO went into 'action', all hell broke loose. Looks like his incompetent handling of the matter chucked the fat into the fire. No soldier, let alone an officer, would strike a superior without being given good reason. The fact that all the majors collectively seem to have (according to the news at least) thrashed the CO, indicates that he must have done something pretty out of line.

3. You would be surprised how small things sometimes spark off mutiny when poor administration has led to dissatisfaction amongst the troops. The CO's role must be probed thoroughly. In an ordinary situation, if an officers wife has been mishandled by a sepoy, the sepoys themselves will automatically come to her aid, and deal with the situation. Here, either the molestation story is fraudulent, because ordinarily the sympathy of any jawan (and indeed, any decent man) would lie with the officer whose wife had been molested... OR.... there was such a powderkeg of frustration built up because of poor handling of the men, that they didnt care.

4. Concept of Sahayak has nothing to do with this. Sahayaks have been around since 1765, when the British Indian Army was formed, and I am willing to bet that you could identify less than 50 such incidents in nearly 300 years. This is like suggesting that since sexual harassment sometimes happens in large corporations, men and women should not work together in the same company. There may be many reasons for relooking the concept of sahayaks (I believe the army is already doing so), but this reason is simply not one of them. It is better to suggest that the sahayak should be with the officer, and not hanging around the house doing domestic chores, under the direction of the officers SHQ, which is totally not what he is meant for.

5. Dont see what it has to do with Mangal Pandey. The man who was thrashed is accused of molestation. A molester is hardly a hero.

6. Civil police were around to save a couple of the Majors. The troops had not opened the kote and taken out their weapons either. Seems they were angry, but everything spiralled out of hand after the CO landed up from the Police guest house where he was camping out, and made his little speech. I think his role will be carefully studied by the COI.

7. Im pretty sure that if the troops had stopped obeying orders before the beating of the colonel happened, then they will be punished.


I will add an aside: I find it rather hard to believe that four or five majors decided to beat up the CO. Im willing to bet that theres something wrong with this picture. Lets wait for more details to come out. Cant always believe what you read in the news!
Last edited by ASPuar on 11 May 2012 20:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 11 May 2012 19:11

Headlines Today giving the usual hyperbolic coverage to the incident.

Hysterical reporters screaming "This is an unprecedented incident in the Army". Hardly so. Mutinies though rare, can, and do happen. The mutineers are punished, and the officers are also punished for allowing things to reach a point where a mutiny could become a reality.

The Army carries on, and so does the World. Lets see what the Inquiry says about it.

Meanwhile, MaJGen S. Thapliyal (Ret) says that Times Now might be wrong about the unit being on field firing exercises, etc. Quite possibly they were in Khrew, or somewhere else, since wives were present.

In either case, Army sources on news are saying its a case of command failure, and the leaders of the unit will be punished if found guilty of negligence.

TV news by the way now saying that it wasnt any Majors who thrashed the CO, but the jawans themselves. As I thought.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ShauryaT » 11 May 2012 19:45

sum wrote:Guess the time has come to stop taking BK seriuosly or is this some uber-Chankian thing which mere mortals cannot understand?
Yes, it is called "cognitive dissonance".

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Gurneesh » 11 May 2012 20:03

Tata 8x8 caught testing by someone at teambhp

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commercia ... truck.html

(did not embed due to the size of images)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby atreya » 11 May 2012 20:06

I met a Madras Regiment Naib Subedar in a train once and he told me at least 4 stories that day, about mini mutinies in various units (he didn't name any). Take it FWIW. There was a unit posted in Kashmir, where the wife of the Major thrashed and abused the sahayak. The sahayak got irritated and he slapped her back. The Major then, apparently, got out a sword and slashed the sahayak. Next morning, all the jawans reported for duty with swords in hand. They proceeded to cut the Major's, his wife's, the adjutant's and the quartermaster's heads. :shock: :-?

It seemed too far fetched to believe, but I didn't question him further.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 11 May 2012 20:31

@Atreya: A likely totally apocryphal story. The man was probably trying to impress you with some gupshup. Any such incident would have been known throughout the army for a very long time.

Far more interesting is the story of the unrest in 2 Garh Rif in 1960s. The Bn Was posted in Jhansi, and a series of incidents, beginning from an out of control and brash Subedar Major screaming in front of the trps at a young Lieutenant who had ordered a fire drill, led up to the stabbing of a senior bn officer (a major), and the eventual relief from command of the CO for being unable to control the battalion.

The SM was placed under arrest, and court martialled, due to the strong intervention of a very strong Brigade commander. Had it not been for him, things would have gone completely out of control, because the bn CO didnt have the guts to stand up to the Subedar Major, nor to tell him off, much less court martial him for insubordination.

Weak leadership leads to chaos. Strong, fearless and active leadership leads to order. Its the only way, and the army is no democracy. Every man in the army is a warrior. And warriors must be led by men competent to lead.

In this current case, seems the jawan misbehaved, and was beaten. But I cant see how any group of officers thought this was the way to deal with things. Again, bad man management from the CO, allowing mistreatment of troops. Surely no officers would have thought to take such action unless it was becoming a part of the units culture.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chaanakya » 11 May 2012 21:18

ASPuar wrote:
Weak leadership leads to chaos. Strong, fearless and active leadership leads to order. Its the only way, and the army is no democracy. Every man in the army is a warrior. And warriors must be led by men competent to lead.

Well said. Leadership is all important and such incidents show mostly weak leadership. How men would fight if one cant lead them?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby svinayak » 11 May 2012 21:27

India Needs a Joint Chiefs

India is investing billions in arms. But without a coherent organizational structure, it will never become an effective war fighting machine.

At the center of the debate has been a heated discussion over whether India should have a unified command system under which the chiefs of the Army, Navy and Air Force, could operate coherently and to mutual benefit. But the debate should be even louder than it is now.


“The main thing to note is that we live in an extraordinarily fluid time, when the age of superpowers is over, all sorts of permutations and combinations are possible.” I couldn’t agree more, and India’s position in the emerging global security environment is a potent one. I agree that you should not necessarily look to the solutions of others and try to make them a prescription for India, but it would be equally unwise not to examine others’ hard lessons and take from them what might be good for India. I’m not hard over on a Joint Chiefs model, necessarily, but I am fairly certain that we can all agree that the inter-service support relationships in India today are less than optimal. There are a spectrum of options, and India needs to decide where it fits on the old quad chart…does she want Joint Integration, Joint Coordination, Joint Cooperation, or Joint De-Confliction. I would offer that at present, at least in my limited experience with Indian air-ground ops, that India should at least aspire to coordinated inter service efforts, with or without a Joint Chiefs construct.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Jaybhatt » 11 May 2012 21:35

Kapil wrote:Chacko,

I think it will be better for all of us if you could direct these questions at yourself rather than forum members.
Most of this thread has turned into a correction of your innocent-babe-in-the-woods semantic and linguistic distortions.
We try to discuss serious issues,you provoke the hair trigger guys,this throws the thread off track and in turn keeps serious ,valuable contributors to the Army Thread away.


Hear, hear. It is high time that this person was suitably admonished for his incredibly distorted and dishonest posturings on this Forum. I am sorry to point out that Ramana has been rather indulgent with this errant member in the past.

Chacko's absurd rantings against Gen. VKS and, on the other end of the scale, his pathetic defence of Anthony in the last few months, have substantially lowered the level of discourse and debate on BR. It has now become necessary for the senior administrators to solve this matter urgently.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 11 May 2012 21:59

Indian Army conducts Exercise Rudra Aakrosh  in Punjab

Will post pics in images thread in some time.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby peter » 11 May 2012 22:15

ASPuar wrote:
In this current case, seems the jawan misbehaved, and was beaten. But I cant see how any group of officers thought this was the way to deal with things. Again, bad man management from the CO, allowing mistreatment of troops. Surely no officers would have thought to take such action unless it was becoming a part of the units culture.


I find something very strange.
1) Jawans and not a single jawan getting into fight. In general there is a sense of propriety and logic amongst men and I fail to see how jawans rallied for someone who had molested an officers wife. This obviously says that the jawans heard a different tale from the fellow jawan and they believed him.

2) To assault officers is in some sense a "finality" for these jawans. What would cause them to take so much risk?


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