Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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ASPuar
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 13 May 2012 04:43

http://www.indiablooms.com/NewsDetailsP ... 20512q.php

Officers-jawans clash in Ladakh not mutiny: Army


Ladakh, May 12 (IBNS):

Army officers and jawans of an artillery unit clashed at the Mahe Field Ranges in Ladakh Region during the field firing exercise of Field Regiment on Thursday.

"The entire episode can at worst be seen as an isolated act of indiscipline. It can in no way be termed as mutiny," read a media statement issued by Amy spokesperson Colonel Jagdeep Dahiya on Saturday.

"No arms and ammunition have been used by anybody. The armoury has not been captured by the troops as is being wrongly reported."

"Misinterpretation and mischievous reporting to sensationalise the incident by some sections of print and electronic media need to be dispelled," he said.

Dahiya said the Brigade Commander of the Artillery Brigade and General Officer Commanding of the Division interacted with the troops on Friday.

"The situation was brought well under control and the Regiment is being moved back from ranges to its location with effect from 12 May 2012," said the spokesperson.

"A Court of Inquiry to investigate into the circumstances under which the incident took place has commenced," he said.

"The Court of Inquiry will identify the complicity of the officers and men. However, nobody has been removed, dismissed or suspended," said Dahiya.

"Col P Kadam, the Commanding Officer was not assaulted by other officers, as has been wrongly reported. The CO as well as Maj AK Sharma and Sepoy Suman Ghosh who suffered superficial injuries, have been given medical treatment," he said.

"The situation is well under control," said the Army spokesperson.


Lots of contradictions in the media and army version. Wait and see, could be the sahayak story is also a fraud. Praveen Swami is anyway not a very trustworthy source. At the very least, its a surprise that given how little information has come out, Shri Swami has written this sanctimonious lecture piece already, about colonial institutions, and whatnot. Looks very shady to me.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby peter » 13 May 2012 05:15

ASPuar wrote:
Lots of contradictions in the media and army version. Wait and see, could be the sahayak story is also a fraud.


Army is saying only 3 people are superficially hurt: CO, Major and the Jawan.

It seems to me that other jawans and officers did not join the ruckus. So all earlier reports were exaggerations.

It further seems that the CO was perhaps trying to break the fight between the major and the jawan since only these three are injured?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby peter » 13 May 2012 05:30

Don't know how much to believe this: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Ladakh-clash-CO-relieved-of-charge-unit-to-be-disbanded/articleshow/13114452.cms

but it does say:

The Army also denied that the stand-off was still in progress with the jawans, who got agitated after sepoy Suman Ghosh was mercilessly thrashed by young officers for daring to complain about the behaviour of a major's wife during the firing training camp at the Mahe ranges.


Earlier, an extensive study conducted into the high suicide rate in the 1.13-million-strong Army by the Defence Institute of Psychological Research had held that "perceived humiliation and harassment" at the hands of their superiors often served as the final "trigger" for jawans to take their own lives.


If these reports are indeed true then "sahayak" system does stand implicated.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 13 May 2012 07:50

A lot more (unconfirmed) details here:

Behind Army Leh clash: Breach of rules and failure of command

A reconstruction of what transpired at the Army’s Mahi firing range in Nyoma, around 150 km from Leh, on Thursday:

* The 226 Field Regiment had moved from Darbuk to the range for firing practice, and officers and men were staying in temporary tents. However, in a breach of rules, at least five officers allegedly also had their wives accompanying them. While families are usually invited for firing demos of artillery guns, wives and children are strictly not allowed at a firing practice session. Even at Darbuk, only a limited number of families are allowed, given that it is a designated “field area”. The Army says the wives were staying at a nearby GREF (General Reserve Engineer Force) camp.

* On Thursday, as the firing practice was on, the regiment barber, identified as Suman Ghosh, is believed to have entered a major’s tent. The sequence of events is unclear, but a version says that on seeing the officer’s wife in the tent, Ghosh ran out in alarm. Following this, the wife allegedly created a furore.

* The major, along with two other officers, is believed to have then thrashed Ghosh, as well as denied him medical aid. This was a second breach of rules as in such cases, disciplinary action is taken while physical assault is forbidden. However, the matter was believed to have been sorted out following the intervention of Commanding Officer Kadam. Ghosh was sent for medical care to a nearby field hospital.

* In the evening though, things took an ugly turn when all the soldiers of the regiment (close to 500) returned to the barracks. A strong rumour spread that Ghosh had died after the severe beating. In a third violation of rules, the subedar major of the battalion — who is the representative of the troops — failed to quell these rumours.

* Convinced that Ghosh had died, a group of soldiers went to the temporary officer’s mess and created a ruckus. As things started getting out of control and physical, Col Kadam, who was staying at the GREF camp, rushed to the spot to calm the troops. Here is when the fourth breach of discipline took place. Even as Kadam was reasoning with the troops, he was hit on the head by a stone thrown by one of the soldiers.

* A fight then broke out between the officers and men. The temporary mess is believed to have been vandalised with some fittings being burnt down by the soldiers. However, weapons are not believed to have been used.

* Officers of the unit fled from the spot, some rushing to their wives. At least two wives are believed to have been “rescued” by personnel from the GREF camp, fearing the anger of the jawans. By evening, all the officers had been accounted for, with one having fled to an Army camp in Chushul.

* By late evening, as reports of the violence reached senior officers, troops were rushed from a nearby Rajputana Rifles regiment camp. While rumours of the soldiers seizing the armoury were found to be untrue, the Raj Rif secured the artillery guns of the unit. By Friday morning, normalcy had been restored as senior officers rushed to the spot.

A shaken-up Army is now trying to get things on track. Col Yogi Sheoran, who commanded the regiment before Kadam and is believed to have a good rapport with the troops, has been rushed to the unit. The Army denied that Kadam had been attacked by fellow officers. The commander of the Nimu-based 3 Artillery Brigade was also sent to the Nyoma camp.

While the unit was to earlier stay at Mahi for a month with its artillery, the firing practice has now been cancelled and all temporary shelters set up near the Nyoma range dismantled.

The Army court of inquiry will be headed by an officer of the rank of Brigadier or above. Given the serious breach of disciple, strict action, including court martial, is likely. A preliminary report on the incident has already been forwarded by the 3 Division 14 Corps. Incidentally, the 226 Field Regiment has had disciplinary problems in the past too. An inquiry had been ordered into allegations against the commanding officer of the same unit while it was deployed on the western frontier during Operation Parakram, following a series of anonymous letters.
Last edited by Nikhil T on 13 May 2012 07:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 13 May 2012 07:58

Also an excerpt from the Hindu

Ladakh troop revolt underlines Army class tensions
Early on Saturday, highly-placed military sources told The Hindu, Leh-based 14 Corps Commander Lieutenant-General Ravi Dastane finally hammered out a deal with the soldiers — a deal which promises officers who used beatings against enlisted men will be punished, in return for the soldiers relocating to their base at Thiksey.

In New Delhi, the Army Headquarters described the clash — the worst of its kind since some units mutinied in 1984 — as “an incident of indiscipline,” not a mutiny. The Army has set up a court to inquire into the incident.

Officers, not Gentlemen?

Late on Thursday evening, after the 226 Field Regiment finished a firing-practice session with their 105-millimetre mountain guns in the Mahé range near Nyoma, witnesses saw a fracas break out. Major A.K. Sharma, one of the unit's officers, claimed his wife was insulted by the sahayak. A highly placed source at 14 Corps Headquarters told The Hindu that the officer's wife complained that Ghosh waked into her room without knocking while she was having a shower.

The sahayak, witnesses told The Hindu, was dragged into the Beacon ground near the range, and beaten up. Major Ankur Tewari, Major Kapil Malik, Major Thomas Verghese, Major A.D. Kanade and Major Sharma himself joined in the beating, documents seen by The Hindu say.

From the witnesses' account, it is clear the men of the 226 Field Regiment did nothing — until it became clear Ghosh had suffered significant injuries. Major Kanade, however, allegedly refused to allow the men to move Ghosh to a medical facility, perhaps fearing it would lead to an internal inquiry on his conduct.

The irate men then began arguing with the officers; witnesses say there was a heated argument, accompanied by some pushing and shoving.

226 Field Regiment commander Colonel Prasad Kadam intervened, reprimanding the officers for their conduct — only to be allegedly assaulted by the five.

The Majors, witnesses said, then fled as troops arrived, saving Colonel Kadam.

Fearing attack by other Army units, some men barricaded themselves inside the quarter-guard, housing the armoury, while others marched into the town shouting Bharat Mata ki Jai [“Long Live India”]. Major Sharma was captured and beaten up; the men moved him to hospital thereafter.

Early on Friday morning, Major-General A.L. Chavan, commander of the Leh-based 3 Infantry Division, arrived in Nyoma and began negotiating with the troops, promising them that force would not be used.


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby svenkat » 13 May 2012 08:50

Theres a clear difference in chindus reporting and IE's report.

If chindu report is false(regarding officers attacking CO) the chindu should be taken to task.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Misraji » 13 May 2012 09:18

Regrettable as this Nyoma incident is, it is atleast good that this has come out in the open and will be worked on.
Pretending that everything is hunky-dory when its not, is even worse.

Just my 2 cents.

--Ashish

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pushkar.bhat » 13 May 2012 10:55

TOI-let reports that The 226 outfit will be number plated and personal dispersed.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 13 May 2012 10:58

svenkat wrote:Theres a clear difference in chindus reporting and IE's report.

If chindu report is false(regarding officers attacking CO) the chindu should be taken to task.


Forget taking to task, they would not even publish comments in decent language, repeatedly. 'The Hindu' of the yore is certainly gone. Today I join others in calling it 'the chindu'.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jimmy_moh » 13 May 2012 11:42

hmm if the same situation was happened in porki side.. we would have made a laughing stock of them by our comments with out searching for what will be the actual issue like we are doing right now...... , anyway am not trying to change the topic.. just my thoughts.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 13 May 2012 11:46

So. To recap.

According to IE, :

1. Ghosh was the UNIT BARBER, not anyone's sahayak, as has been plastered across all outlets, and become such a piece of conventional wisdom, that Praveen Swami of THE HINDU took it upon himself to write a long, preachy piece about sahayaks.

2. Lots of people in the media made much of the officers assaulting their CO. This in itself seems to have turned out to be a fraud.

3. Such reporting has had wide airing. Does noone think that this will have a negative effect on the army nationwide? Such heinously irresponsible reporting about an event on which there isnt full information? People like Praveen Swami should be crucified.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 13 May 2012 11:54

The 30,000-odd men serving as sahayaks are expected not just to ensure that their officers' uniforms are in order and their personal comfort is cared for, but ferry their children to school and help with their spouses' shopping.

The batman system was long abandoned in the British Army, from which India drew it; even Pakistan dropped the institution in 2004. In India, however, it remains

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 13 May 2012 12:02

My ever increasing belief is that , India as a country, the government , the judiciary and the administrators, do not deserve the Army it has had over the past 65 years of independent existence. There has been consistent efforts to demonise the Army and in turn make it into one, that this nation deserves. Of late these efforts have picked up speed and strength, with considerable support from within the Army, willingly or otherwise. We will certainly rue this in the not so distant future. JMT.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 13 May 2012 12:06

Singha wrote:The 30,000-odd men serving as sahayaks are expected not just to ensure that their officers' uniforms are in order and their personal comfort is cared for, but ferry their children to school and help with their spouses' shopping.

The batman system was long abandoned in the British Army, from which India drew it; even Pakistan dropped the institution in 2004. In India, however, it remains


1. This clash has nothing to do with sahayaks. The media has deliberately misreported. The man was the Unit Barber, as the Indian Express report has revealed.

2. This 30000 soldiers figure is anyway dubious, but the men are borne on the strength of the batallion, and are combatants in the event of war, as the officers bodyguard and runner, and not just idle manpower.

3. The British army still has orderlies in the Household division. But just because the British do, or dont do something is no reason to do or not do it. Our army must do as it sees fit.

4. See any newly minted IPS officer, and observe how many orderlies he has. Observe how many orderlies an ITBP, BSF, or CRPF officer has. Then ask why is an orderly a sin in the Army, and not in these organisations? And yes I know you will say any number of things, but if you are asking the army officer to give up his sahayak, he will definitely ask why you didnt ask anyone else to do so, and only singled him out for this withdrawal of privilege.
Last edited by ASPuar on 13 May 2012 12:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 13 May 2012 12:11

Singha wrote:The 30,000-odd men serving as sahayaks are expected not just to ensure that their officers' uniforms are in order and their personal comfort is cared for, but ferry their children to school and help with their spouses' shopping.

The batman system was long abandoned in the British Army, from which India drew it; even Pakistan dropped the institution in 2004. In India, however, it remains


I contest the figure of 30,000, if we take the strength of Indian Army officer cadre to be 30,000. About 50% of the officers are in places were they can have no sahayaks. Courses, cat A establishments, ERE, low level staff in HQ, MES, GREF, DGQA, Survey, etc. And then one-third of the active strength of the Army is deployed in Field areas. Of the remaining a considerable portion would still be unmarried. Please don't fall for figures that DDM peddles.

Provisioning of 'sahayaks' is an administrative convenience authorised to officers. The benefits of such privilege accrues to the organisation. The same cannot and should not be removed without suitable alternatives.

As far as misuse goes there is no question of raising any questions. Punish the defaulters where and when deemed fit.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Badar » 13 May 2012 13:40

See any newly minted IPS officer, and observe how many orderlies he has. Observe how many orderlies an ITBP, BSF, or CRPF officer has. Then ask why is an orderly a sin in the Army, and not in these organisations? And yes I know you will say any number of things, but if you are asking the army officer to give up his sahayak, he will definitely ask why you didnt ask anyone else to do so, and only singled him out for this withdrawal of privilege.


The issue is not that IPS officers et al have orderlies. Or even that armed forces officers have orderlies.

The issue is having a full trained soldier (at the very least an infantry grunt) made to do a servant's work (which in practice is what happens - whatever the code says). It is a criminal waste of resources - selecting, training, grooming and paying for a warrior/future leaders and then using them as a batman. The system is indefensible and outmoded.

What is currently being advocated - having a adjunct civilian, non-uniformed helper force to largely take over the Sahayak duties is the way to go.

As for the Leh clash, I can but smile at jimmy's post. I can well imagine the posts from the Usual Suspects, and how different they would be.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sachin » 13 May 2012 13:50

anjan wrote:I don't think you actually understand the sahayak system at all. He doesn't travel with the family or even the officer in peace stations.

Sir, I have got family friends in the forces. Let us leave it at that. Also I request you to read up earlier posts when some members have clearly written down the mis-use of this system in detail.

NikhilT wrote:n Thursday, as the firing practice was on, the regiment barber, identified as Suman Ghosh, is believed to have entered a major’s tent. The sequence of events is unclear, but a version says that on seeing the officer’s wife in the tent, Ghosh ran out in alarm. Following this, the wife allegedly created a furore.

Let the Army investigate (and clarify on the media as well) whether ladies were permitted to be in this firing range when the excercise was going on. The unit barber cannot be blamed in entering the officer's tent, because he may not have expected any women out there.

ASPuar wrote:The British army still has orderlies in the Household division.

Can you confirm this? Because I do have a detailed video (prepared by the Guards Division, and I purchased it from their Museum in London) which explains the Changing of the Guards ceremony. In that the commentator explicitly says that the Officer's uniform (bear skin cap etc. etc.) now have to be maintained by the officers as unlike the earlier days the orderly system does not exist any more. The cross belt in which the colour is mounted is maintained by the bandsmen, and they actually try it out on the young officer who is to carry the colour during the next day's parade.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 13 May 2012 14:08

Badar wrote:
The issue is not that IPS officers et al have orderlies. Or even that armed forces officers have orderlies.

The issue is having a full trained soldier (at the very least an infantry grunt) made to do a servant's work (which in practice is what happens - whatever the code says). It is a criminal waste of resources - selecting, training, grooming and paying for a warrior/future leaders and then using them as a batman. The system is indefensible and outmoded.

What is currently being advocated - having a adjunct civilian, non-uniformed helper force to largely take over the Sahayak duties is the way to go.

As for the Leh clash, I can but smile at jimmy's post. I can well imagine the posts from the Usual Suspects, and how different they would be.


1. The issue is very much so, that how can you ask the army officer to give up his orderly, when others will not? Why is the media, and also some commenters on this forum so keen to ask for the army officers orderly to be removed, but are silent when it comes to the orderlies of others? Probably because they (the media) never want to take panga with the policewallahs.

2. The trained soldier is rotated in and out of these duties. And he attends to the duties of a rifleman in addition to orderly duties. He does not become a fulltime 'servant'.

3. This adjunct civilian helper idea had already been tried, long before. The Non Combatants, Enrolled demanded to be combatised, because they were serving in field areas, and did not want to be vulnerable in the event of war. FM Manekshaw approved their combatisation as far as I am aware.

4. Lastly, the fact that both some persons in the media, and some persons here have an axe to grind, is evident from how some persons jumped on the sahayak issue like vultures, but now that its proven that there was no sahayak angle, are trying to change the topic to, "anyway, sahayaks are bad".

Leave the army alone. They know how to handle their own affairs, and will do so. Theres lots more to be thought about, like our ammo stocks, our strategic position, our dispositions vis a vis china, our raisings of new corps and divisions.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 13 May 2012 14:55

From Orbat.Com:

From Mandeep Singh Bajwa on India-Pakistan military exercises Indian Army corps on the Pakistan front used to exercise every 2-3 years, but now the tempo has accelerated to once every year and the trend has become multi-corps exercises. In India the HQ above corps is the Command, which is both a geographical and a tactical arrangement. There are no field army HQs, though the matter comes up for discussion from time-to-time.

Before Cold Start, the army on the Pakistan front was divided into strike and holding corps. So XV, XVI, XI, X, and XII Corps were holding, and I, II and XXI were strike. The holding corps defensively protected their area of the front. Now all corps are to go on the offensive; indeed, most of Cold Start will be conducted by the former holding corps. As part of the offensive doctrine - a major change because since 1947 India has used the defensive-offensive configuration - the assumption is a war will be short. There will be neither time for mobilization, nor for learning on the job.

Accordingly, there has been a steady shift of formations closer to the front as a way of reducing mobilization time. The process is slow, because creating new permanent bases is not just expensive, in a crowded country like India land for new bases is not easily obtained. Equally, under Cold Start, there is to be no waiting for strike formations to concentrate at the front. The corps in place (now XV, XVI, IX, XI, X, and XII, from north to south) are to begin offensives at very short notice. The offensives will be conducted by eight armor battle groups, each of brigade size and heavily reinforced, each operating on a separate axis.

If the war is short, the battle groups will seize territory out to 30-km before shifting to the defensive. If the war continues, the three strike corps will enter play. Each of the three Pakistan-front plains commands - Western, South Western, and Southern - has an assigned strike corps. From north to south these are I, II, and XXI Corps.

The new posture requires considerably higher readiness, which is the reason for the increased tempo of exercises. I Strike and X Corps in South Western Command have finished an exercise, and now all of Western Command - II Strike, IX and XI Corps - is starting an exercise. It may be noted that by staging the exercise in May, at a time of maximum heat, the Indian Army is giving notice there is no more "fighting season". In the past this was the late fall/winter/spring. Now India is prepared to fight in the summer. The monsoon is still off limits because the torrential rains turn the ground to mush so that even tracked vehicles get into trouble.

Similarly, India is now prepared to go on the offensive in the mountains even in the dead of winter.

Pakistan, naturally, has not been sitting back passively. Despite its limited resources it has also stepped up its exercise tempo. Units from its I Strike plus X Corps and II Strike plus XXXI Corps have finished training at the ranges. A major exercise for IV Corps (Lahore) designed specifically to respond to a Cold Start grab is planned soon.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby peter » 13 May 2012 15:24

ASPuar wrote:
3. Such reporting has had wide airing. Does noone think that this will have a negative effect on the army nationwide? Such heinously irresponsible reporting about an event on which there isnt full information? People like Praveen Swami should be crucified.


In India incompetent journalists are ruling the roost. The race to garner high TRP ratings and lack of strong libel laws is the cause IMHO.

Look at this forum. Chacko repeatedly maligned/mis-represented what General VKS did. Despite having contrary information in the public domain in the same very thread which he did not bother checking.

Unless some of these incompetent / irresponsible journalists are taken to courts and courts order them to either pay up for damaging somebody's reputation or takes away their ability to be reporters these guys and gals are not going to listen.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pankajs » 13 May 2012 15:34

BEML over-charged for spares too:Army sources
NEW DELHI: Exorbitant prices to severe shortcomings in indigenization may not be limited to just Tatra vehicles supplied to the Army by Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), according to Army sources and internal assessments.

The supply of Armoured Recovery Vehicle (ARV) WZT-3 to the Indian Army by BEML suffers from similar issues, including steep prices for spare parts and lack of efforts to indigenize the vehicle. ARV WZT-3, supplied by Bumar of Poland, is based on a T-72 tank chassis and was introduced in service more than a decade ago.

A detailed assessment shows that BEML has been charging the Army exorbitant rates for spare parts for the vehicle. The BEML offer is sometimes 20 to 30 times more than the estimated rates based on pervious receipts. For example, 'non-return valve', for which the estimated rate is Rs 1,608.81, was supplied by BEML at Rs 39,550 in 2008-09. The 'small bolts for track links', of which the estimated rate was Rs 424.70, was sold by BEML at Rs 15,480 in the same year. A mere 'nut in the set', estimated to cost Rs 192.08, was sold at Rs 5,505.

BEML also failed to indigenize the vehicle significantly, leading to almost complete dependence on the Polish supplier.

Army sources said the "exorbitant rates" for spare parts was going to cause serious problems because the overhaul of these ARVs is becoming due. As a result, the need for spare parts will shoot up. Source said BEML will not be able to meet the increased requirements because "BEML has not set up any manufacturing facility so far, and most of the items demanded by us are imported by the defence public sector unit," a source said.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Badar » 13 May 2012 15:46

ASPuar wrote:1. The issue is very much so, that how can you ask the army officer to give up his orderly, when others will not? Why is the media, and also some commenters on this forum so keen to ask for the army officers orderly to be removed, but are silent when it comes to the orderlies of others? Probably because they (the media) never want to take panga with the policewallahs.
People would complain about them as well if trained clerks and secretaries were expected to moonlight as the IPS officers "Sahayak" part time.

2. The trained soldier is rotated in and out of these duties. And he attends to the duties of a rifleman in addition to orderly duties. He does not become a fulltime 'servant'.
Why is trained soldier (on whom we spend a hell of a lot more money than on the average police pandu) serving in this role at all?

3. This adjunct civilian helper idea had already been tried, long before. The Non Combatants, Enrolled demanded to be combatised, because they were serving in field areas, and did not want to be vulnerable in the event of war. FM Manekshaw approved their combatisation as far as I am aware.
How exactly were they vulnerable and what protection did combatisation offer? Perhaps there are very good reasons for the Sahayak system as it is, that is worth the abuse the system gets. If so can you share them please.

4. Lastly, the fact that both some persons in the media, and some persons here have an axe to grind, is evident from how some persons jumped on the sahayak issue like vultures, but now that its proven that there was no sahayak angle, are trying to change the topic to, "anyway, sahayaks are bad".
What you say might be very true, but it still remains an ad hominem.

Leave the army alone. They know how to handle their own affairs, and will do so.
I don't really buy this argument. I will agree with you that the army experience and expertise dwarfs mine and one should be circumspect in second guessing professionals. But this is my army paid for with my money and they are not above criticism. What next leave police, Neta, PSU people alone to handle their own affairs?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 13 May 2012 15:50

peter wrote:Look at this forum. Chacko repeatedly maligned/mis-represented what General VKS did. Despite having contrary information in the public domain in the same very thread which he did not bother checking.

Unless some of these incompetent / irresponsible journalists are taken to courts and courts order them to either pay up for damaging somebody's reputation or takes away their ability to be reporters these guys and gals are not going to listen.


Peter,

I challenge you to take me to court. Let us see you will put your money where your mouth is. Its a dare. Prove that What I said was wrong.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby merlin » 13 May 2012 16:10

Some things about this puzzle me

1. Where were the JCOs in all this?
2. Who leaked this report to the media so that they could have a field day maligning the IA? Was it the MoD?


ASPuar
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 13 May 2012 17:06

Badar wrote:People would complain about them as well if trained clerks and secretaries were expected to moonlight as the IPS officers "Sahayak" part time.


They are. And so are trained policemen, by their thousands.

Why is trained soldier (on whom we spend a hell of a lot more money than on the average police pandu) serving in this role at all?


First of all, drop the sanctimonious "we". Secondly, do tell me, how much is spent on the average soldier, and how much on average pandu, please? Give me the benefit of your vast fiscal knowledge.

How exactly were they vulnerable and what protection did combatisation offer? Perhaps there are very good reasons for the Sahayak system as it is, that is worth the abuse the system gets. If so can you share them please.


Not sure what youre asking. If youre not sure how being unarmed and untrained, yet stationed in insurgency areas, etc is dangerous then Im not sure how I can educate you.

What you say might be very true, but it still remains an ad hominem.


What I say is true, and the attacks on the army are beginning to turn into an ad hominem.

I will agree with you that the army experience and expertise dwarfs mine and one should be circumspect in second guessing professionals. But this is my army paid for with my money and they are not above criticism. What next leave police, Neta, PSU people alone to handle their own affairs?


My dear fellow, the average army soldier pays taxes just like you. Unless you've started paying such vast sums of tax money that you are single handedly funding the entire army, please dont tell me how "your money" is funding the whole operation. These soldiers also protect this nation state, and ensure its safety so that you can earn your salary, income, whatever. Much better that you question why "your money" is being stolen every day by Babus, Pandus, etc.

But you wont. Because you're scared of them. The moment you or I tell the cop in nearest thana that it is run with "my money", he'll show us how "our money" also paid for the lathi that is delivering a thrashing to you or me. The babu will show you how much he appreciates "your money", and how you step outside the door that your money paid for, and wait till kingdom come for your building permission to come through, or you marriage certificate, or your drivers license, or your passport.

But go ahead. Be the great protector of "our money", old boy. After all, the army is an easy target for your ilk. Much easier than the average clerk or pandu.

In the interim, you can tell me why you have no right to question the IB/RAW's use of "your money"? Just because "your money" paid for the army (I'll bet not 10 paise from your taxes went to the army, given the vast social sector expenditure), does it belong to you? It doesnt.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby anjan » 13 May 2012 17:38

Sachin wrote:
anjan wrote:I don't think you actually understand the sahayak system at all. He doesn't travel with the family or even the officer in peace stations.

Sir, I have got family friends in the forces. Let us leave it at that. Also I request you to read up earlier posts when some members have clearly written down the mis-use of this system in detail.
Actually I was questioning your intent. Given the setting of the incident I was confused by the leap of faith taken in immediately assigning the blame without a full incident report. The system must stand or fall on it's own merits. It doesn't need people conjuring fictitious incidents or twisting real ones to burnish or damage it's case. All I see on this thread are people quick to jump to conclusions and tar and malign with little or no understanding of the subject. Although on the subject and since you're so familiar with the Police tell us how many people in uniform and mufti typically hang around the house of an ASP ( with what.. 7 odd years of service? the equivalent of a Maj IIRC)? It can't all be for protection because going by how some of them carry their rifles that would probably be dangerous in itself.

They say "a little learning is a dangerous thing". My father is from the infantry and the best I can say is that I have a decent if incomplete understanding of infantry battalions and brigades. I have "family friends in the Army" does not give you an understanding of the Army. It gives you a very limited window into a particular officer in a particular branch of the Army. This to generalize conduct in a million man army. It's especially interesting coming from a person who spends his time strenuously defending the police and asking people not to draw general conclusions based on the conduct of a few.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 13 May 2012 18:03

Haha, Anjan, an IPS officer is Additional Superintendent of Police for only the first 2 years of his (post training) service. After 4 years of service, he becomes an SP (equivalent to a major, regardless of the badges of rank they wear).

But let that be. Even an inspector has lots of chamchas shifting gamlas on official assignment at his house, and an inspector is the equivalent of a subedar!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ASPuar » 13 May 2012 18:05

anjan wrote:They say "a little learning is a dangerous thing". My father is from the infantry and the best I can say is that I have a decent if incomplete understanding of infantry battalions and brigades. I have "family friends in the Army" does not give you an understanding of the Army. It gives you a very limited window into a particular officer in a particular branch of the Army. This to generalize conduct in a million man army. It's especially interesting coming from a person who spends his time strenuously defending the police and asking people not to draw general conclusions based on the conduct of a few.



Hear, hear.

A lot of the rubbish we see on here is "my cousin uncles co-brother is a retired Lieutenant-Major" and other such half baked nonsense, but it appears some heroes here think it qualifies them to be comment on anything with supreme knowledge.

Sachin in the interim is the first to pounce on the sahayak issue, (even though turns out it wasnt true), but he will forgive any number of IPS officers who have their constables clean their toilets at home.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 13 May 2012 18:29

^^After all, Army officers are liable to be slapped and manhandled for bearing an arrogant look in front of the policeman in Pune.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Badar » 13 May 2012 18:30

ASPuar wrote:First of all, drop the sanctimonious "we".
ASPuar, If it was your dog that I ran over yesterday, then I am really sorry for that. If it wasn't I see no reason for the hostility.
Secondly, do tell me, how much is spent on the average soldier, and how much on average pandu, please? Give me the benefit of your vast fiscal knowledge.
18.5 lakh per annum average/grunt - specialist training not included. Don't ask for the source.

Not sure what youre asking. If youre not sure how being unarmed and untrained, yet stationed in insurgency areas, etc is dangerous then Im not sure how I can educate you.
Your Sam Menakshaw line threw me off. Insurgency in a big way is mostly late 80s and later. I am still not sure about the reasons Sam combatised the support elements but never mind.

What I say is true, and the attacks on the army are beginning to turn into an ad hominem.
Why does the army and its backers feel this sense of siege? Who is out to get them? And why?

My dear fellow, the average army soldier pays taxes just like you. Unless you've started paying such vast sums of tax money that you are single handedly funding the entire army, please dont tell me how "your money" is funding the whole operation.
Got it. In this republic only the Tatas and Birlas have a right to accountability. I am the hoi polloi. Thank you for showing me my place.

These soldiers also protect this nation state, and ensure its safety so that you can earn your salary, income, whatever. Much better that you question why "your money" is being stolen every day by Babus, Pandus, etc.
No. This is as good a question as the one you are suggesting. Waste and corruption in the army is not intrinsically holier than in the civvy street.

But you wont. Because you're scared of them. The moment you or I tell the cop in nearest thana that it is run with "my money", he'll show us how "our money" also paid for the lathi that is delivering a thrashing to you or me. The babu will show you how much he appreciates "your money", and how you step outside the door that your money paid for, and wait till kingdom come for your building permission to come through, or you marriage certificate, or your drivers license, or your passport. But go ahead. Be the great protector of "our money", old boy. After all, the army is an easy target for your ilk. Much easier than the average clerk or pandu.

My "ilk". Yes of course the great unwashed, the "99%".

In the interim, you can tell me why you have no right to question the IB/RAW's use of "your money"? Just because "your money" paid for the army
Why is IB/RAW beyond the ambit? I understand some necessary need for opsec (just like the forces need some leeway for opsec). But what makes IB/RAW so special? Or if the argument is that since they "get away" with things so should the army?

I'll bet not 10 paise from your taxes went to the army, given the vast social sector expenditure), does it belong to you? It doesnt.
I just brought a large bag of chips. I am sure I made more than 10 paise worth of involuntary donation to the army. :)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Ankit Desai » 13 May 2012 19:20

NDTV's documentary on on going war game in desert named "Survir"

Video - रेगिस्तान में जंग का अभ्यास

सूरतगढ़ के रेगिस्तान में सैन्याभ्यास में करीब 50 हजार सैनिक शामिल हुए। इसे शूरवीर नाम दिया गया।


-Ankit

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby kmc_chacko » 13 May 2012 20:35

isn't Arjun Mk II was to be tested on 10-05-2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 13 May 2012 21:14

Senior officer in Cabinet Secretariat leaked Army Chief’s letter

and the Govt promptly denies it. Whereas the govt took its sweet time to come out in public that Army Chief enjoyed its confidence and deny reports of him spooking DM's office, it takes less than half an hour to issue a denial in this case.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chaanakya » 13 May 2012 21:20

Its treason and Offense against India. Must be jailed and tried under Defence of India Act, Army Act and Officials Secret Act .

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 13 May 2012 21:25

I would like to know what would the Govt. have done if it had been VKS.

They would have made mince meat out of him in media and all our Parliamentarians would have jumped on him (like they did when some of them demanded his sacking when this issue originally blew up)
Last edited by member_22906 on 13 May 2012 21:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Boreas » 13 May 2012 21:26

chaanakya wrote:Its treason and Offense against India. Must be jailed and tried under Defence of India Act, Army Act and Officials Secret Act .

or may be thank them for prompt siging of M777, pilatus and more deals about to be finalized in coming days.

If somebody was interested in treason.. doesn't it seem more beneficial to pass the info silently to PRC/TSP and probably make some money as well? Whats the benefit in leaking it to indian media?

To me it appears to be an act of national duty somebody did by putting his/her job in danger.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 13 May 2012 21:34

Boreas wrote:....
If somebody was interested in treason.. doesn't it seem more beneficial to pass the info silently to PRC/TSP and probably make some money as well? Whats the benefit in leaking it to indian media?

....


And what is the guarantee that she/he has not been doing that all along?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby aniket » 13 May 2012 21:52

In the video of Ex Shorveer, I noticed something, Why weren't the soldiers wearing BPJ's ?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 13 May 2012 21:58

The govt's swift denial.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=83691

Posters should realise why those in the Olive Green and their backers here are in a sense of siege.


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