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Gurneesh wrote:Try googling about blue star and all you see is scores of reports of alleged human rights violations conducted by army. Now they could be true or could be blatant lies and propaganda who knows. No one can deny it or prove it because GOI in its infinite wisdom did not allow any press on the scene. But any nri youngster reading that is sure to hate Gen Brar. Really there is no concrete information on whether IA conducted itself in correct spirit or not.
Pathetic, disgraceful and disgusting attempt at justifying hatred of KS Brar.
There is more than enough information available publicly on Blue Star and books written by credible people about the role played by differen personalities and organisations. Clearly you prefer reading the propaganda written by the supporters and sympathisers of terrorists.
Gurneesh wrote:PS. As a side note how many here brand a patriot like Gen Shabeg Singh as a terrorist? And who is responsible for that ?
Only Shabeg himself is responsible for choosing the path of terrorism.
sarabpal.s wrote:
we start with brar vs bhinderawala
Sorry to butt in here. Bhinderawala was a crook and propped up by Pakistanis to create Khalistan to avenge BD . IG may have her own shortsightedness in dealing with them but Gen Barar should not be compared to that crook. He is a true patriot and outstanding Soldier.Khalistan movement claimed many a lives , officers and men alike, common men as well as terrorists. Peace has prevailed and Lets leave all that behind and move beyond that .
And one more thing , if anyone thinks that they can get Khalistan or any *istan they would be truly shocked to see the response when it comes. Blue star or black thunder or green star or red star It would be awe inspiring and cause terror in the heart of enemy. Don't get fooled by response after 26/11 . let there be no doubt on this count.
The problem in UK and Canada is that a lot of Sikh immigrants came from the villages and have maintained the village links w/o getting the broader understanding and context of how Punjab has transitioned from the time they or their parents immigrated.
They are generally stuck in a time warp so they find it easier to digest what comes from the informal route rather than the mass media route (esp the active media of today). There is almost a romanticised notion of the underdog and persecution - which I personally helps them in channelizing their current personal frustrations (and not connected to the issues with Punjab). Why am I going with this notion? Simply because even today the noise about K'stan comes from Birminghams, South Halls and the Torontos rather than Indian Punjab...
Bhindrawale surely gained credibility in the begining because he took a hard (and good) stance against liquor, drugs, tobacco and focused on getting the Sikh youth closer to the faith. Something like what born again evangelists would do... Where he screwed up was the measures he took... That is to eliminate anyone who opposed his POV. Interestingly, he remained either mum or ambivalent about K'stan for most of his career. His idea about Sikh history and its relatioship with India and Hindus was downright ridiculous. I am not getting into the jazz about whether Sikhs are part of Hindus or not but to say they are a different people w/o no linkage with India and Hindus was nothing but bizarre
Those that support Bhindrawale speak about his freedom of speech and his human right to have a conscience that could be different from others... But what about Bhindrawale's complete disregard to those that didnt agree with him? How can that act not be called terrorism but something like a "misguided" act...?
Op Blue Star and the later Sikh riots were surely a blemish on Indian history for different reasons from my POV. For Op Blue Star, IA screwed up on the execution and GoI on the strategy. No one likes their holiest place turning into a battlefield. The fact that there were desertions in IA units and an overwhelming population of my Sikh brethren were offended was surely painful to me. I was a kid and still remember the hurt sentiments and emotions of our family friends. One of my very close friends stopped speaking to me and cried saying "I know you people hate me....". Bottomline is that if this is the response of the common Sikh, then something fundamentally was wrong in the strategy and/or execution. The Sikh riots were surely a very dark hour in our history for very obvious reasons. My parents and grand parents had got our Sikh friends home during those days in Delhi since it was just too dangerous for them in their homes. Nothing can justify the "supposed backlash" to IG's killing for those that ever try to defend the riots.
It still brings a fair amount of strong emotions in me personally with what happened - but to park the blame on IA for violations and ill intent is downright stupid and baseless....!!
Some of the primary differences between BS and BT were:
a) Specialist forces used in BT - trained for CT operations
b) Ground intelligence was taken in BT
c) Snipers were used as one of the primary tools for cleaning out the scum in BT
d) Wait and watch was the preferred approach than jumping in BS - It was already known by everyone in Harmandir Sahib what time IA would attack during BS
e) Media management was a class disaster in BS - esp world media
... Bhindrawale etc. would have been just the seasoning in the cauldron and not the main course - as they were made out to be... The hurried operations (whatever the reason) is the precise reason why I personally feel that Brar and Vaidya were not strong enough to push back (like Lt. Gen SK Sinha)
Perhaps in hindsight the learning from BS ensured that BT was a success... One of the few such cases that we have had as a nation
Gurneesh wrote:
Pathetic, disgraceful and disgusting attempt at justifying hatred of KS Brar.
There is more than enough information available publicly on Blue Star and books written by credible people about the role played by differen personalities and organisations. Clearly you prefer reading the propaganda written by the supporters and sympathisers of terrorists.
I never tried to justify anything but merely stated what i saw while googling. The first two pages are overwhelmingly biased towards one side which would be sufficient proof for youths in foreign lands who have only heard stories of what might have happened. This is mainly why support for Khalistan lingers mostly in foreign lands and not in mainland Punjab. It should be GOI's responsibility to reach out to those elements abroad (who still think Punjab is what it was in 80's when a lot of them left) so that history does not repeat itself.
The link that I posted says that army was deployed at Golden Temple on June 3, this gave IA only about 3 days to prepare an attack plan. Considering that Punjab was under President's rule since Oct 1983, surely GOI had enough opportunities to sort the situation out much before June 3.
Bhindrawale etc. would have been just the seasoning in the cauldron and not the main course - as they were made out to be... The hurried operations (whatever the reason) is the precise reason why I personally feel that Brar and Vaidya were not strong enough to push back (like Lt. Gen SK Sinha)
And there are many others who say otherwise - let alone Bhindranwale - there was no shabeg
wait and watch would not have worked if people from villages were being stirred up to go to the temple.
also BS ensured that the sort of arms and build up that occurred before did not occur again as they new that the GOI could act - makes a difference
and the NSG was formed because of BS and hence all the things possible in BT - so yes thats in hindsight
Gurneesh wrote:It should be GOI's responsibility to reach out to those elements abroad (who still think Punjab is what it was in 80's when a lot of them left) so that history does not repeat itself.
No.
It is the responsibility of all grown-up people bringing up their children to make a clear distinction between heroes (General Vaidya, General Sundarji, General Dayal, General KS Brar) and terrorists (Bhindranwale, Shabeg, etc).
It is the duty of the Gurudwaras and Granthis all over the world to make it clear that Bhindranwale desecrated the shrine and the Indian Army (with great Sikh officers at the forefront) liberated it from evil men like Bhindranwale.
Surya wrote:and the NSG was formed because of BS and hence all the things possible in BT - so yes thats in hindsight
BT was possible because BS occurred.
Agreed.
But to state that was the appropriate option since we can't say for sure what was the context is overlooking some basics - firstly, you always need to know who your adversary is, what is his strength and equipment, location, etc.... Even in '71, Sam Maneckshaw has pushed IG back on the timing of operations since he was the expert in that field and not her. She didn't like it but he stood firm since he knew what he was doing and what he would have to deal with...
Secondly, you just don't storm a place like Harmandir Sahib with APCs and then wonder why the Sikhs are upset especially when IA has had a long and glorious tradition of Sikh soldiers - its not like you are going to (bizarre example to drive home a point so kindly overlook the bizareness ) Andamans and not knowing the cultural context of Jarawa tribals...
Ajay Sharma wrote:Secondly, you just don't storm a place like Harmandir Sahib with APCs and then wonder why the Sikhs are upset especially when IA has had a long and glorious tradition of Sikh soldiers
Don't talk tactics in hindsight. Bhindranwale was only too aware of the huge emotional reaction that an armed assault (with APCs or B-52s is besides the point) would evoke, and he believed that was his real strength / deterrent to the Government. Indira Gandhi proved him wrong. Now no terrorist can assume they are safe just because they are hiding in a place of worship. Harmandir Sahib is at the end of the day just a building. I feel worse about the civilians and soldiers who lost their lives. A building can be rebuilt.
My friend, if you say Harmandir Sahib is just a building then there is nothing I have to say to you...
But you did make the statement below, so you are not being truthful. And, I'm not your friend.
Ajay Sharma wrote:
If this was so effective, the supposed brinkmanship, then why did we have another situation when Op Black Thunder was finally planned and executed?
surya has already made the point to you, but you will not listen or understand since you are determined to blame the Indian Army for Blue Star.
I can only salute the Indian Army for the bravery of its commanders and soldiers in conducting Blue Star.
The government gave the army 1 night to clear the complex of terrorists. The mission was successfully accomplished. The loss of life that occurred is very troubling. If they could have saved lives by destroying more bricks and masonry, I would have been in favour.
The government successfully established the principle that a place of worship does not provide any protection to a terrorist.
Interview of Gen. Brar - Operation Blue Star: An insider's story Part 1
I guess the people arguing against the operation do not really understand the severity of the situation then. Have a look at the interview and try to contemplate what would have been happened if IA did not step up. Integrity of the nation is supreme, whatever may be the cost.
Just look at the video and see even if 50% of what Gen. Brar is saying is true is horrific enough to take action then.
It is the duty of the Gurudwaras and Granthis all over the world to make it clear that Bhindranwale desecrated the shrine and the Indian Army (with great Sikh officers at the forefront) liberated it from evil men like Bhindranwale.
Again this is your agenda that you deign to prescribe heroes to other quoms.
What is it with Hindus? Islamists are not following the true spirit of the Koran, Christians are not following the peace and love of Christ, Sikhs are misrepresenting a terrorist who is not a true Sikh.
Who are you fookers to know, assess and evaluate what these holies should or not be doing? As the good doctor will admit, absolute drivel used to be posted here with respect to the religion of peace then they came after you in Bombay to demonstrate their religion of pieces-of bodies, infrastructure, your illusions. The good doctor sure changed his raga in a hurry, as will the rest.
They all despise you, when you decide to leave playland behind, you too will find it is okay to return the contempt and with far greater cause and justification.
They all hate atheists because we do not fear their stupid gods. Remember all religions are stupid, only some are stupid and vicious. Learn to recognise reality.
Fact of the matter is that the Indian Army paid the price, for the idiocy displayed by Mrs Gandhi & co, in propping up a thug like Bhindranwale as a counterweight to the Akalis, another bunch of rabble rousers. Things got to the point, that Mrs Gandhi had zero ability to stop this fanatic once he gained power and went about using the Sikhs as his cannon fodder for his political aims. In the process, enough people died that Blue Star was a given.
What he did to the sacred precincts was unconscionable. One wishes there was another way though.
This is not the first time the Army was brought into solve a mess created by the actions of others, 1962 and the Forward Policy ring a mind, and predictably, like all political driven mandates, led to a rushed operation. The manner in which the Paras were sacrificed was rubbish (with orders not to shoot back).
All in all, as always, the Army was used to get things done, with very little leeway to draw up a coherent plan for taking all issues into account.
One huge issue for the Army has been the manner in which many Army functionaries and senior personnel have regarded the GOI as helmed by the G' family and related folks, as people whose orders could not be questioned or debated to come up with more effective strategies. These leaders were literally deified thanks to their association, in whatever tenuous manner with the Indian independence movement. In the 90's, I remember talking to a Brigadier about the same topic and he willingly admitted that if he had been in the same spot, and if IG or the PM were to ask him to do anything, he wouldn't think twice about getting it done. Much the same can be seen with many of our rtd bureaucrats and others when they talk about the decisions made by Mrs G and JLN etc. They were literally not to be questioned and even years after retirement, an omerta of sorts is maintained, plus a complete "first family" syndrome.
In such a milieu, it would take a radical non comformist to stand upto these folks & tell them they were going about the issue the wrong way and had not given the Army enough time to prepare or that other options should be sought. And such a person would be kicked out, and the next person brought in double quick. Heck, even today, when a man like VKS speaks up, he is tarred and feathered using a compliant media. One need not imagine the pressure on the then Army to "get things done". Giving the Army one day to get things done - if that was the case, stupidity. The fact that India had no intervention force like the NSG - whereas other countries had already gone on that path, just shows how ad hoc security planning was in India.
As matter of fact, one more legacy of Blue Star, is that the Army, is now predictably wary of getting sucked into quagmires created by misplaced policies and which have to be solved by civilian administrations, with force as a last resort. The reason for example, the Army of today is not keen on saving the MHAs skin by jumping willy nilly into the Maoist mess.
The bigger issue is not of what happened when the Indian Army had to take the Golden Temple to cleanse it of Bhindranwale and his thugs, but how things got to that state, with a GOI sitting asleep at the wheel, after having been part of the initial problem. Much the same case today, when assorted "youth forums" and "democratic leaders" attack the memorial of the unknown soldier, wage mini-jihad relentlessly in several states, but the GOI, in its wisdom, led by votebanking politicians, watches idly.
Coming to the perception of the attack, the GOI/Army also have a long history of ignoring the propaganda war, whether it be direct conflicts (65, 71 and 99) or even insurgencies. The acts that Bhindranwale did, by populating a sacred shrine with women for nefarious ends, weapons etc, should have been widely distributed and disseminated. Instead, the various functionaries of the Govt have done little in terms of a coherent media strategy. It bears remarking that even when it comes to prior conflicts, the work done by amateur historians is a far sight better than some of the official work which is hidden behind tons of paperwork and similar rubbish.
What this means is that the Khalistani side has enjoyed wide leeway in making up all sorts of stories and getting it to be the widely accepted truth amongst expats who are ever willing to believe the victim angle.
The same was the case in terms of the Indian Army in Sri Lanka. I have lost count of the number of times I have had to debate fellow Indians who are passionately convinced, having read in some rag or the other, about the Indian Army bullying the innocent poor Sri Lankan Tamils who then "defended themselves". Now, the end of the LTTE has meant the new villain is the Sri Lankan Army. Better they are the new victims of the propaganda war..
I fundamentally do not care whether its temple, mosque, church - tribal hut - whatver
pretty much every soverign state will go in if armed terrorists against the state are housed in
Its only us as a nation who spend too much time trying to appease people on this.
because of those who selectively display emotions and put their religion over their country.
I have Sikh friends who argue the same - and I ask them - where were you when a DGP was killed and the armed goons were running a mafia operation inside?? they were running a torture chamber inside?? you went to the Temple, prayed, looked the other way and came back to your comfortable life in Bombay. After BS - oh yea - lot of khujli then to go out and protest.
@ Karan M: Good post. You used better words for what I was trying to say.
Anyhow, one time that a general stood up to GOI was Sam Manekshaw where he flatly refused to go to war under prepared. And well all know the result of that.
If as the reports claim the plan was to declare an independent state and recognition of it by the states who hate us - no army chief could have asked for more time.
The fundamental problem is the inability to put the country and its army above your religion or parochial group when it comes to such clashes
eklavya wrote:surya has already made the point to you, but you will not listen or understand since you are determined to blame the Indian Army for Blue Star.
I have blamed IA for tactics not strategy. In fact have defended IA from accusations here of rights violations, desecration etc.
Whats the point of having a situation where it is "Operation successful... Patient dead..."
a) talking abt desceration by the army as alleged ... the forum will be surprised to know that atleast during BT, the khalistanis were shitting and pissing inside the harminder sahib ( the sanctum santorum). never heard anyone protest against this? the pots holding the karha prasad were filled with shit !! ( personally seen by urs truly brother who was there...).
To all those critical of Army;s desceration, pl tell me is carrying AK 47, grenades, womanising inside a gurudwara tantamount to desceration or not??
In the museuem attached to golden temple, Bhindrawale is even as of today portrayed as a martyr !!
b) its true the IG is as much responsible for the mess as was Bhindrawale. Both got what they deserved in the end. bad karma. if bhindrawale is a terrorist, so is IG.
c) Army just carried out the orders ( we could endlessly talk abt tactics etc....). they were asked to do something in a given timeframe and they did it as best as they could.
the troubles in this world are not due to atrocities of the minority as they are due to the silence of the majority.
eklavya wrote:surya has already made the point to you, but you will not listen or understand since you are determined to blame the Indian Army for Blue Star.
I have blamed IA for tactics not strategy. In fact have defended IA from accusations here of rights violations, desecration etc.
Whats the point of having a situation where it is "Operation successful... Patient dead..."
dear i try to explain same and they brands me khalistani.
dont spend time replying here they have free run from mod other wise there post would be removed by now
Surya wrote:no you did not explain the same (not that the explanation itself has any merits - you go to a place teeming with terrorists - you know the risks)
you called the army rats.
Dear discussing here my view clear my mind how to prepare for future.
Thanks for clearing my doubt what i should do.
i see wolves digging around
who pleased by army tactics and dont want discuss shortcomings of it in long term life.
one bring in the issues of hindu sikh another bring issues woman in harminder sahib(never heard it before) just to discreet high worship place of sikh. what ever wrong done by extremist they get in return. Brar should apologized to community not killing extremist but damage done there by tactics.
Golden temple is always highest worship place for Sikh.
Then the activities of Bhinderawale were legit, at the holiest shrine? Please do not put him on a pedestal, he was a thug.
If with you are OK with what miltants were doing inside specifically Harminder Singh Sahib (the holiest of the shrine) before the stroming, that's your choice. I would suggest you discover what I am suggesting here. I cannot point further on that count.
Army looking for letters of IG to Binderawale, (as if they had the time) smells like a CT to me.
Even Gen Brar would not consider himself to be a hero. I can tell you he is no villian (like Tytler).
I would blame Khaistani militants who used pilgrims as hostages and in that context I am open to the possiblity of some civilians being caught in the cross fire and killed and being id-ed as militants. To that extent I willing for them to be facilited by SGPC.
Lastly, Extend the same courtsey that you are expecting of others regarding being branded.
Unless you already have watched his interview, please take the time to watch Gen Brar's interview posted on this forum (and what has contributed to this assasination attempt) in the IA history thread.
sarabpal.s wrote: woman in harminder sahib(never heard it before) just to discreet high worship place of sikh. what ever wrong done by extremist they get in return.
Oh wow! Those opiated goons of B'wala high on some stuff groped two (then) young women on a college trip to Harmandar Sahib in the first quarter of 1984. The said ladies and witnesses to the act happen to be my relatives. Thugs, charlatans and goons were desecrating Harmandar Sahib since 1982 if only propagandists look beyond their echo chambers. Calling distinguished IA soldier a Rat is unacceptable. However it must be said that B'wala was in essence a congi creation.
Op Blue Star and the later Sikh riots were surely a blemish on Indian history for different reasons from my POV. For Op Blue Star, IA screwed up on the execution and GoI on the strategy. No one likes their holiest place turning into a battlefield. The fact that there were desertions in IA units and an overwhelming population of my Sikh brethren were offended was surely painful to me. I was a kid and still remember the hurt sentiments and emotions of our family friends. One of my very close friends stopped speaking to me and cried saying "I know you people hate me....". Bottomline is that if this is the response of the common Sikh, then something fundamentally was wrong in the strategy and/or execution. The Sikh riots were surely a very dark hour in our history for very obvious reasons. My parents and grand parents had got our Sikh friends home during those days in Delhi since it was just too dangerous for them in their homes. Nothing can justify the "supposed backlash" to IG's killing for those that ever try to defend the riots.
It still brings a fair amount of strong emotions in me personally with what happened - but to park the blame on IA for violations and ill intent is downright stupid and baseless....!!
Sikh riots were and still are a blemish. It remains unrequitted so far thanks to coongi goons.
But as far as Op Blue Star is concerned it became a necessity at that time given the situation. Cant blame IA for whatever happened there. If any religious place ( any means ANY be it a Hindu Sikh Christian or Muslim religious place) is used for seditious activities , terrorist activities and antinational activities it would become target of State Action whatever sentiments few common folks may have.
Events leading to Op Blue Star, Black Thunder, Op Night Dominance were chilling enough to use the heavy hands of the State. IA and Punjab Police did exemplary job back then notwithstanding some collateral damages and emotions of some . They deserve better than the current dispensation is giving them. These are the men who kept India intact.
I fundamentally do not care whether its temple, mosque, church - tribal hut - whatver
pretty much every soverign state will go in if armed terrorists against the state are housed in
Its only us as a nation who spend too much time trying to appease people on this.
because of those who selectively display emotions and put their religion over their country.
I have Sikh friends who argue the same - and I ask them - where were you when a DGP was killed and the armed goons were running a mafia operation inside?? they were running a torture chamber inside?? you went to the Temple, prayed, looked the other way and came back to your comfortable life in Bombay. After BS - oh yea - lot of khujli then to go out and protest.
My friend, if you say Harmandir Sahib is just a building then there is nothing I have to say to you...
But you did make the statement below, so you are not being truthful. And, I'm not your friend.
Ajay Sharma wrote:
If this was so effective, the supposed brinkmanship, then why did we have another situation when Op Black Thunder was finally planned and executed?
surya has already made the point to you, but you will not listen or understand since you are determined to blame the Indian Army for Blue Star.
I can only salute the Indian Army for the bravery of its commanders and soldiers in conducting Blue Star.
The government gave the army 1 night to clear the complex of terrorists. The mission was successfully accomplished. The loss of life that occurred is very troubling. If they could have saved lives by destroying more bricks and masonry, I would have been in favour.
The government successfully established the principle that a place of worship does not provide any protection to a terrorist
.
Absolutely. Now people should protest when religious places are used for nefarious activities else that place would meet the same fate.
Harmandir Saheb ios not just a building but it was converted into just such a building by desecrating it by bhindiwalas and his goons and thugs. Needed to be cleansed by blood of brave Indians. Let there be no doubt in the minds of foreign khalistani sympathisers or young nri sikhs or people from any religion that IA would rise to the call if needed. Conclusions drawn from Ops BS would be useful and as always politicians would mess up.
However , let us not forget the Role Sri Narasimha Rao as PM played in containing Khalistani terrorism and that of KPS Gill the then DGP of Punjab Police.
"the government successfully established the principle that a place of worship does not provide any protection to a terrorist "..
this assertion is not true as events in Hazrathbal in 1993 proved that GOI does not have balls to flush out terrorists from a mosque !!
And what happened at HB. Army indeed cordoned the shrine. Political mess up is not to be blamed on Army. But the idea was driven home there as well since HB could not be used by the terrorists with impunity. The only way to use it was to get out of that using political class or alternate choice would have resulted in destruction of the structure and Army was prepared for that , politicians were not. Terrorists had to run away like cowards only to be killed later by IA. Most of the identified ones are dead now.
) Andamans and not knowing the cultural context of Jarawa tribals...
