Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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rohitvats
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 03 Dec 2012 09:41

Given the planned expansion in AAC by the Indian Army, all the work that has gone into Dhruv helicopter and subsequently into WSI-Dhruv and LCH will see great implementation. Even assuming 1 x Squadron of LCH for each Corps @ 12 helicopters per squadron, we're looking at an order of 170-180 helicopters. Not to count the requirement for Dhruv-WSI in similar numbers....HAL Rotary wing is surely going to have its hands full in coming decade.

And HELINA needs to come of age ASAP to arm all these combat helicopters. What remains to bee seen is whether IA will stick to Dhruv in utility role or ask for its own share of Mi-17V5 helicopters. As I had posted sometime back, IA is looking for ability to lift a Company worth of troops at Corps level, a battalion at Command level and a Brigade at AHQ level. All this will require medium lift helicopters. Not to forget that the planned Mountain Strike Corps will need to have organic airlift capability. Rest assured, before this decade is out, IA/AAC could be operating (along with IAF) one of the largest fleets of helicopters on earth.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 03 Dec 2012 09:49

Helina is in astra1 mode...no news for a long long time.

Hope that does not means pars3 Crawls in via walkover. We need basic bread and butter like atgms and aams made locally. Volume items but costly, so desi is always better.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 03 Dec 2012 10:03

Singha wrote:Helina is in astra1 mode...no news for a long long time.Hope that does not means pars3 Crawls in via walkover. We need basic bread and butter like atgms and aams made locally. Volume items but costly, so desi is always better.


My sentiments, exactly.

PARS 3LR is a done deal as an INTERIM measure...I hope this interim measure does not become a permanent fixture.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 03 Dec 2012 10:04

Fond hope sire..given the t90 panic deal was also a interim measure :(

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 03 Dec 2012 10:13

rohitvats wrote:Given the planned expansion in AAC by the Indian Army, all the work that has gone into Dhruv helicopter and subsequently into WSI-Dhruv and LCH will see great implementation. Even assuming 1 x Squadron of LCH for each Corps @ 12 helicopters per squadron, we're looking at an order of 170-180 helicopters. Not to count the requirement for Dhruv-WSI in similar numbers....HAL Rotary wing is surely going to have its hands full in coming decade.


My guess is that WSI Sqn may subsequently be assigned to each Div operationally in the pivot corps while LCH may remain at the corps level. This means that the WSI order could be much greater than LCH.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 03 Dec 2012 10:20

Ajay Sharma wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Given the planned expansion in AAC by the Indian Army, all the work that has gone into Dhruv helicopter and subsequently into WSI-Dhruv and LCH will see great implementation. Even assuming 1 x Squadron of LCH for each Corps @ 12 helicopters per squadron, we're looking at an order of 170-180 helicopters. Not to count the requirement for Dhruv-WSI in similar numbers....HAL Rotary wing is surely going to have its hands full in coming decade.


My guess is that WSI Sqn may subsequently be assigned to each Div operationally in the pivot corps while LCH may remain at the corps level. This means that the WSI order could be much greater than LCH.


Aiyyo Saar...can you imagine the number of squadrons and helicopters required in that case??? :shock:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 03 Dec 2012 12:11

Here's some food for thought for the quants on this forum:

U.S. Army personnel 2012 - 550,000

U.S. Army Rotary Wing Aircraft 2012 - 3, 500

Indian Army personnel - 1,100,000

Indian Army Rotary Wing aircraft - 250


Given that the maximum amount of cross-training and exchange visits are happening with the Yanks, guess where the numbers are headed...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 03 Dec 2012 12:16

I had posted sometime back that 1st airborne div when deployed for battle fields more helicopters than entire ia aviation wing.

We need to get right tools to dislocate and tear apart cheen formations on a wide front and more helis are a must. I dont want this gritty defensive plan of se la or demchok to continue to infinity....its not a steady state you want to get locked into.

Mobility is power. The big cats and wolves know that well....they target prey that are weak in mobility either being naturally slow or wounded. Cub wolves instinctively chase each other for hours even in deep snow to build stamina and mobility for the long hunt.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 03 Dec 2012 12:52

Here's a gem from the BR archives which basically reinforces why this was long overdue

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LANCER/idr00014.htm

Taken to its logical conclusion, the AAC formalization should ultimately mean that for any Lt. Gen. to hope for command of a Strike Corps he should have punched the AAC/Airmobile brigade equivalent ticket.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby maitya » 03 Dec 2012 17:20

rohitvats wrote:
Ajay Sharma wrote:My guess is that WSI Sqn may subsequently be assigned to each Div operationally in the pivot corps while LCH may remain at the corps level. This means that the WSI order could be much greater than LCH.


Aiyyo Saar...can you imagine the number of squadrons and helicopters required in that case??? :shock:

Back of the envelope calc reveals, 18 Infantry and 10 Mountain divisions will itself mean ~420 Dhruv pieces.
Not sure RAPIDS will get any dedicated sqns.
Plus the upcoming new divs in the NorthEast needs accounting also.

Surely, each of these divisions will ask for LUH and LoH sqns as well.

And ofcourse 1sqns of LCH for each of the Armoured divisions and another sqn of LCH each for the 3 strike corps makes it to ~90pieces. Ofcourse the existing Mi-25/35s needs accounting as well.
But, then again, what about arming the Ind Arm Brgds?

Whoa!! whichever way you look, mind-boggling numbers :-o ... will take time to digest these numbers itself. :mrgreen: :twisted:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Chinmayanand » 03 Dec 2012 17:28



The Ceska Brena looks good to me with a grenade launcher. BTW , do i get any cut out of the deal if any 5 are selected ? Once i get the hang of these big cuts in defence deals, i might recommend importing a defence minister and secretary too , citing how the MoD has failed to prepare the forces for war under desis.

Why our whole defence manufacturing setup is unable to make some good rifles while it can make ballistic missiles , Chandra yaan , nuclear submarine ?
Looks like making a rifle is more than rocket science. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 03 Dec 2012 18:29

rohitvats wrote:Aiyyo Saar...can you imagine the number of squadrons and helicopters required in that case??? :shock:


Seri Seri Saar... main thoda jazbaati ho gaya thaa :oops:

But surely, there will be a combo of WSI and LCH @ the pivot corps level if not @ the div level, inshallah...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby merlin » 03 Dec 2012 19:06

Chinmayanand wrote:


The Ceska Brena looks good to me with a grenade launcher. BTW , do i get any cut out of the deal if any 5 are selected ? Once i get the hang of these big cuts in defence deals, i might recommend importing a defence minister and secretary too , citing how the MoD has failed to prepare the forces for war under desis.

Why our whole defence manufacturing setup is unable to make some good rifles while it can make ballistic missiles , Chandra yaan , nuclear submarine ?
Looks like making a rifle is more than rocket science. :mrgreen:


The converse is, you can buy a rifle from anywhere, anytime but you cannot buy ballistic missiles and nuclear submarines for either love or money.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rkhanna » 03 Dec 2012 20:47

Just out of curiosity. Why did no HK gun take part. Is the 416 more expensive than the M-4?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 05 Dec 2012 08:05

maitya wrote:Whoa!! whichever way you look, mind-boggling numbers :-o ... will take time to digest these numbers itself. :mrgreen: :twisted:


True, very satisfying Singhaesque numbers. I think even he would be okay with these.

BTW Whats the current rate of production of Dhruv's? Any plans for updates to the number?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Katare » 08 Dec 2012 01:16

pkpandey wrote:http://www.indiaagainstcorruption.org/index.php/26-11
26/11 के हमले में दुश्मनों को मार गिराने वाले एनएसजी कमांडो का हक क्यों मार लिया गया?

26/11 2008 को मुंबई पर आतंकी हमले हुए. सैकड़ो बेकसूर लोगों की जान गई थी. आतंकी मुंबई की सड़कों पर मौत बरसाते घूम रहे थे. आतंकियों को उनकी औकात बताने के लिए सरकार ने राष्ट्रीय सुरक्षा गार्ड यानी एनएसजी के कमांडो को ड्यूटी पर लगाया था. हमले के कुछ ही घंटे के भीतर एनएसजी के जाबांज कमांडो हरियाणा के मानेसर से मुंबई पहुंच चुके थे.

एनएसजी ने इस अभियान को ऑपरेशन ब्लैक टॉर्नेडो नाम दिया था. इसमें शामिल होने आए कमांडोज में एक तो ऐसे भी थे जिनके घर में चार दिन पहले बच्चे का जन्म हुआ था और वे बजाय अपने बच्चे का मुंह देखने के आतंकियों से भिड़ने निकल पड़े थे. ऐसे ही एक कमांडो हैं सुरेंद्र सिंह. हरियाणा के झज्झर जिले के छारा गांव के रहने वाले कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह ने सेना की ग्रेनेडियर्स युनिट से थे और नियुक्ति पर उन्हें तीन साल के लिए एनएसजी में भेजा गया था. कमांडो सुरेंद्र जिस युनिट में थे उसे ताज होटल को खाली कराने की जिम्मेदारी दी गई थी. एनएसजी कमांडो की टीम एक-एक फ्लोर को खाली कराती सबसे ऊपरी मंजिल तक पहुंच गई. उधर हेलिकॉप्टर से उतरे कमांडोज की एक टुकड़ी ऊपर से नीचे की ओर बढ़ रही थी. जब आतंकियों को लगने लगा कि अब वे पूरी तरह घिर गए हैं तो उन्होंने ताबड़तोड़ ग्रेनेड फेंकना शुरू कर दिया. कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह की टीम ने दो आतंकियों को ढेर कर दिया. इस बीच एक ग्रेनेड कमांडो सुरेंद्र के नजदीक फटा. उससे निकले छर्रों से सुरेंद्र सिंह बुरी तरह घायल हो गए.

एनएसजी हॉस्पिटल और आर्मी बेस हॉस्पिटल में उन्हें ईलाज के लिए जे जाया गया. डॉक्टरों ने जांच के बाद लिखा कि एनएसजी कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह ग्रेनेड के हमले में बुरी तरह जख्मी हुए हैं. उनके दाहिने कंधे, बाएं पैर में छर्रों की वजह से गहरे जख्म हुए हैं और धमाके की आवाज के कारण वह दोनों कानों से बहरे हो चुके हैं. सेना के डॉक्टरों ने इस रिपोर्ट के आधार पर कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह को सेना में काम करने के लिए पूरी तरह अयोग्य़ घोषित कर दिया.

15 अक्टूबर 2011 को 14 साल तीन महीने और 10 दिन तक सेना की सेवा के बाद उन्हें सेवामुक्ति दे दी गई. बाद में जब उन्होंने सेवा पेंशन के लिए अर्जी दी सेना के ग्रेनेडियर्स अभिलेखा कार्यालय ने(The Grenadiers Records ) ने 6 जून 2012 को जारी पत्र संख्या 2691391L/Claim/ D-Pen के जरिए कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह की सेवा पेंशन की अर्जी यह कहते हुए खारिज कर दी कि उन्होंने 15 साल की सेवा अवधि पूरी नहीं की है इसलिए उन्हें सेवा पेंशन नहीं दिया जा सकता. तकरीबन एक साल से ज्यादा का वक्त बीत चुका है लेकिन अभी तक कमांडो सुरेंद्र को अभी तक कोई सेवालाभ नहीं दिया गया है. वह अपनी जमा-पूंजी से अपना इलाज करा रहे हैं. ईलाज पर तकरीबन एक लाख रुपए से ज्यादा खर्च कर चुके हैं.

लोगों के दिमाग में 26/11 याद है. हमले के दौरान जिदा पकड़ा गया एकमात्र आतंकी अजमल आमिर कसाब याद रहा, कसाब की बिरयानी से लेकर शादी करने की हसरतें और यहां तक कि उसे मच्छर के काटने तक की बातों की खूब चर्चा होती रही. लेकिन देश अगर किसी को भूल गया तो वे थे एनएसजी के वे जाबांज कमांडोज जिन्होंने अपनी जान पर खेलकर मुंबई को आतंकियों से मुक्त कराया था. जिनके साहस, जिनके बलिदान की एनएसजी में कद्र नहीं हुई. वे अपने अधिकारों के लिए लगातार संघर्ष करते रहे. उनके संघर्ष में साथ देने वाला कोई नहीं था. कुछ लोग इस लड़ाई में इतने थक गए कि उन्होंने नौकरी से तौबा कर ली, कुछ की संघर्ष शक्ति से घबराकर सेना ने उन्हें नौकरी से निकाल दिया. उनको पैसे-पैसे का मोहताज बना दिया.

http://www.indiaagainstcorruption.org/i ... 2-14-06-26

सेना के दावे पर कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह का पक्ष

सेना का दावा कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह को दी जा चुकी हैं सभी सुविधाएं, सुरेंद्र सिंह ने इसे बताया सफेद झूठ
दिल्ली, 22 नवंबर. 26/11 ऑपरेशन में दुश्मनों का बहादुरी से सामना करने वाले कमांडो नायक सुरेंद्र सिंह के अपने हक की मांग के लिए मीडिया में जाने के बाद सेना और सरकार की ओर से एक के बाद एक नए दावे किए जा रहे हैं. हर दावे में यह जिक्र है कि कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह जो कुछ भी मांग कर रहे हैं वह नाजायज है. उन्हें उनका हक दिया जा रहा है.
सेना ने एक नोट जारी करके अपना पक्ष रखा है और कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह के सभी आरोपों को खारिज कर दिया है. लेकिन सेना के दावे उसकी अपनी ही बातों का खंडन करते हैं. सुरेंद्र सिंह ने बिंदुवार सेना के एक-एक दावे पर अपना पक्ष रखा है.
1. पीआईबी के रक्षा विंग की ओर से जारी नोट में कहा गया है कि नायक सुरेंद्र सिंह की पेंशन और रिटायरमेंट के बाद दी जाने वाली ग्रेच्युटी मंजूर कर ली गई है. इस नोट की भाषा पर गौर करें. सेना कह रही है कि उसने सुरेंद्र सिंह की पेंशन और रिटायरमेंट ग्रेच्युटी की बात मंजूर कर ली है. यानी सेना सिर्फ मंजूरी की बात कह रही है, वह यह नहीं कह रही कि सुरेंद्र को पैसे दिए गए हैं.

सुरेंद्र सिंह ने आज प्रेस से बातचीत में भी यही कहा कि उन्हें अभी तक कोई पैसा नहीं मिला. उन्हें सेना से अलग हए 13 महीने गुजर चुके हैं और वह अपने पैसे के लिए लगातार चक्कर काट रहे हैं. यानी सुरेंद्र सिंह ने जो बात कही उसे सेना झुठला नहीं रही बस शब्दों में हेर-फेर करके सुरेंद्र को गलत साबित करने की कोशिश की जा रही है. अगर सेना के दावे को एक पल के लिए मान भी लिया जाए तो क्या देश के सैनिकों को अपने हक की मांग के लिए प्रेस में जाना होगा. जब तक वे प्रेस में नहीं जाएंगे उनकी बात सुनी नहीं जाएगी. एक सवाल यह भी उठता है कि सेना ने अगर सचमुच ऐसा कोई निर्णय किया था तो इसकी सूचना सुरेंद्र सिंह को पत्र लिखकर क्यों नहीं दी गई?सारे सरकारी निर्णयों के लिए पत्राचार जरूरी होता है. लेकिन इस मामले में कोई पत्राचार नहीं होना इस बात का इशारा करता है कि ये फैसले पहले हुए ही नहीं हैं. अगर कोई बात प्रक्रिया शुरू हुई भी होगी तो वह आज के प्रेस कांफ्रेस के बाद हुई होगी.

2. सेना का दावा है कि सुरेंद्र सिंह को हर महीने 25,254 रुपए की पेंशन मंजूर की गई है. सेना सिर्फ मंजूरी की बात कह रही है. वह यह दावा नहीं कर रही कि उन्हें पैसे दिए जा रहे हैं. सुरेंद्र भी तो यही बात कह रहे हैं कि उन्हें सेना से मुक्त हुए 13 महीने हो गए और कोई पेंशन नहीं मिल रही. ईलाज के लिए उन्हें काफी खर्च करना पड़ रहा है और उसके कारण वह आर्थिक तंगी से गुजर रहे हैं.

सुरेंद्र सिंह को पेंशन की मंजूरी के सेना के दावे में एक विरोधाभास है. सेना का दावा है कि सुरेंद्र सिंह को 25,254 रुपए प्रतिमाह की पेंशन दी जानी मंजूर हुई है जिसमें सेवा पेंशन और युद्ध विकलांगता पेंशन दोनों सम्मिलित हैं. सेना के ग्रेनेडियर्स रिकॉर्ड्स ने 6 जून 2012 में पत्र संख्या 2691391L/ Claim/D-Pen में सुरेंद्र सिंह को लिखकर साफ-साफ बता दिया था कि उन्होंने 15 साल की सेवा पूरी नहीं की है इसलिए वह पेंशन के हकदार ही नहीं है. तो सेना ने अचानक कैसे सेवा पेंशन और युद्ध विकलांगता पेंशन की बात शुरू कर दी है. क्या वह उनको रिटायरमेंट के बाद दिया जाने वाला पेंशन देने को तैयार है या फिर यह युद्ध में घायल सिपाही को दिए जाने वाले पेंशन की बात कर रहे हैं. यह तो सुरेंद्र सिंह का अधिकार है. अगर सेना के मन में अपने बहादुर सिपाही के प्रति सच में कोई सदभावना है तो उन्हें रिटायरमेंट के बाद दिए जाने वाला पेंशन क्यों नहीं दिया जा रहा. सेना के प्रावधानों के तहत ऐसा आसानी से किया जा सकता है.
3. सेना का एक और दावा यह है कि उन्हें जिला सैनिक बोर्ड झज्जर द्वारा 05-10-2012 को भूतपूर्व सैनिक स्वास्थय कार्ड(ECHS CARD) को सुरेंद्र सिंह को हाथ में सुपुर्द किया गया. सेना का यह दावा गलत है. सुरेंद्र सिंह ने 08-10-2011 को Regional Director ECHS Delhi Cantt के नाम एक डिमांड ड्राफ्ट (संख्या 819161, एसबीआई, बोहर शाखा, हरियाणा) तैयार कराया और नियमानुसार Regional Director ECHS Delhi Cantt को भेजा. ग्रेनेडियर्स रिकॉर्ड्स ने सुरेंद्र सिंह का ड्राफ्ट यह कहते हुए 02-05-2012 को लौटा दिया कि यह ड्राफ्ट ECHS Delhi Cantt के नाम नहीं बल्कि ECHS जबलपुर के नाम बनना चाहिए था. इस बात की सूचना पत्र संख्या 0954/SR/Y/ECHS के माध्यम से दी गई. इसके बाद ग्रेनेडियर्स रिकॉर्ड्स ने 03-09-2012 को एक अस्थाई ईसीएचएस कार्ड भेजा. इसकी सूचना पत्र संख्या 26913911/SR/ECHS के द्वारा सुरेंद्र सिंह को दी गई. ध्यान देने योग्य बात है कि अगर सुरेंद्र सिंह के डीडी में कोई तकनीकी त्रुटि रह गई थी तो उसकी सूचना देने में नौ महीने का वक्त क्यों लगा. इस बीच ईलाज का खर्च जुटाने में सुरेंद्र सिंह को तमाम कठिनाई झेलनी पड़ी.

4. रक्षा विंग की ओर से जारी प्रेस विज्ञप्ति में कहा गया है कि कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह ऑपरेशन ब्लैक टॉर्नेडो में घायल हुए और मेडिकल जांच के बाद इस निर्णय पर पहुंचा गया कि कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह बायें कान से बहरे हो चुके हैं. यह दावे दो बड़े सवाल खड़े करता है. पहला, कमांडो सुरेंद्र सिंह को सेवा से अलग करने के पीछे सेना ने जो कारण लिखित रूप में बताया था उसमें कहा गया है कि सुरेंद्र दोनों कानों से शत प्रतिशत बहरे हो चुके हैं इसलिए उन्हें सेवा में बनाए नहीं रखा जा सकता. तो सेना का कौन सा दावा सही है? सुरेंद्र को सेवा मुक्ति के दौरान किया गया दावा या आज की प्रेस कांफ्रेंस के बाद किया गया सेना का दावा?
5. सेना ने अपने नोट में दावा किया है कि गैर-सरकारी संस्थानों से भी आर्थिक सहायता आती है वह एनएसजी कल्याण कोष में जमा होती है. सेना का यह दावा कई शंकाओं को जन्म देता है. सुरेंद्र सिंह ने मुख्य सूचना आयुक्त के आदेश के बाद 06-11-2012 को जब एनएसजी मुख्यालय की फाइलों का मुआयना किया तो पाया कि उनके नाम पर रोहन मोटर्स की ओर से दो लाख रुपए की एक रकम स्वीकार की गई है. रोहन मोटर्स ने सुरेंद्र सिंह के नाम से जो चेक लिखा था वह कॉरपोरेशन बैंक का था और उसका चेक नंबर 409796 है जो 09-01-2009 को जारी किया गया था. ऐसे ही आठ और चेक अलग-अलग गैर-सरकारी संस्थाओं द्वारा जारी किए गए जिसकी फोटोकॉपी फाइल में लगी थी औऱ भुगतान दिखाया गया था. इसके अलावा हरेक शहीद के नाम से 10 लाख रुपए की रकम भी स्वीकार की गई है जिसकी फोटोकॉपियां फाइलों में दर्ज हैं.

एक सैनिक जो करगिल की लड़ाई लड़ चुका है, जिसने मुंबई के आतंकी हमले में अपनी जान की बाजी लगा दी. जो ग्रेनेड से घायल होने के बावजूद लड़ता रहा और दो आतंकियों को ढेर किया, उसके साथ सेना आमने-सामने खड़ी नजर आने लगी है. सेना का तो फर्ज बनता था कि वह अपने बहादुर जवान को जो दुश्मनों से लड़ता हुआ विकलांग हो गया था उसकी सेवाएं तत्काल खत्म करने की बजाय मानवीय आधार पर उसे आठ महीने के लिए दूसरे ऑफिस जॉब में लगा सकती थी ताकि वह 15 साल की सेवा अवधि पूरी करके सेवा पेंशन के हकदार बन सकें. लेकिन दुख की बात है कि सेना ने अपने जवान के साथ हमदर्दी नहीं दिखाई.

FROM MAJ NAVDEEP SINGH.
http://www.indianmilitary.info/2012/11/ ... mbles.html

Agree with AK or not, system in shambles!

I do not personally agree with the manner adopted by Kejriwal in parading a former commando in front of TV cameras with his woes. I may not agree, but others may, and that is just my own humble opinion.

However, if the allegation of delay in release of pension for 14 months after invalidation is true, then it is unforgivable. If the delay was actually there then it should have been admitted by the system rather than putting out a morbid PIB press release which confuses the issue for the public at large to consume. It is yet another matter that though the official press release talks a lot about the enormous benefits released, it does not state as to whether there was a delay in the grant of pension or not or the date of release of the person from service and the date when the pension was released.

It has been oft repeated that delay in release of pension, especially for disability pensioners, is due to the internal procedures involved and regularly happens in many cases. But is this correct? Or are there guidelines governing the issue?.

What the PIB press release and the official establishment do not want to come to light is the provisions of Paragraph 19 of Appendix C of Integrated HQ of Ministry of Defence (Army) Letter No B/40122/MA(P)/AG/PS-5 dated 20 July 2006 which clearly provides that the Release/Invaliding Medical Board (RMB/IMB) is supposed to be conducted 8 months prior to release and the approval is to be granted within 1 month of the RMB/IMB and then adjudication is to take place within 3 months of RMB/IMB and sent to the office of Principal Controller of Defence Accounts (Pensions) who is then supposed to issue a Pension Payment Order (PPO) within 1 month of the receipt of the claim. Hence in normal circumstances, the PPO for disability / war injury pension is to be issued 3 months prior to discharge/invalidation. The delay, if any, can only happen in cases involving rejection of claims of attributability resulting in a fresh medical board and in that case too, in accordance with the period prescribed, the PPO is to be issued about 15 days prior to release from service.

Keeping in view the above mentioned procedure already codified as an SOP, any delay is unacceptable, especially in the case of the NSG commando, and neither it should be defended nor condoned. The correct way out for the Govt or the Army was to fix responsibility as to who were the persons involved in the delay. People sitting in bureaucratic chairs do not realize and cannot fathom that being out of service how these disability pensioners would survive or feed their families till the time pension is released, how would they receive medical care since many would not know that ECHS Medical Cards are not issued to disability pensioners till the time the disability pension PPO is issued.

The delay is nothing new. Thousands of claims are languishing with the Personnel Services Directorate and the Pension wing of the MoD for resolution and adjudication. Appeals are also delayed inordinately resulting in perpetuation of sufferings of the disabled. A live case handled by me just a few days ago was of an invalided Captain who was released in the year 2000 but has received his Pension Payment Order (PPO) for his complete service benefits now, in November 2012. And that too, not with the help of the system, but through the help of a mere RTI Application. It is yet another matter that the Supreme Court has laid down that pension should be released forthwith on the date of retirement and that any delay in release of pension should be penalized with interest at market rates.

We’ve been saying this on this blog since long and all of us have been playing our small little roles but there is much to do.

To put it succinctly, the Govt should not just unnecessarily rebut what is now coming out in public light, it should resolve these issues rather than retorting with mindless egoistic press releases.

PRESS RELEASE BY MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=89228

Allegation of Non-Payment of Pensionary Benefits to Nk Surender Singh not Correct

In a press conference today, retired Nk Surender Singh of 2 GRENADIERS and an ex NSG Commando expressed some grievances against the government. These pertained to alleged lack of adequate compensation and financial benefits to those who were killed/injured in the 26/11, Operation Black Tornado in Mumbai. Response with respect to the issues raised is enumerated in succeeding paragraphs.

In the 26/11 Mumbai operations, one Officer and one Non Commissioned Officer were martyred and 17 Officers and Other Ranks were injured. Both martyrs Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan and Havildar Gajender Singh were awarded the Ashok Chakra (Posthumous). The NOK of Major Unnikrishnan got a financial compensation of approximately Rs.1.3 Crores and a flat. Similarly, the wife of Havildar Gajender Singh received approximately Rs.1.27 Crore, a petrol pump and a flat. His mother too received Rs.15 Lakhs approximately. Both these personnel also received enhanced pension benefits as applicable in the Army.

As regards the injured, there were one Kirti Chakra, two Shourya Chakra, six Sena Medals, one Mention in Despatch and three Chief of the Army Staff Commendation Cards awarded. Four persons with grievous injuries received financial compensation of Rs.4.8 lakh each and others with lesser injuries received Rs.2.3 lakh each.

NSG is a deputation organization where personnel from the Army serve for three years and those from the CAPF, for 5 years. Nk Surender Singh came to the NSG on 9 May 2007. He suffered Acoustic Trauma during the Mumbai operations and became a permanent Low Medical Category on account of Sensory Neural Deafness of the Left Ear. In the normal Course, he would have been reverted to his parent unit 2 GRENADIERS on completion of his three year tenure on 8 May 2010. However, on compassionate grounds, he was retained in the NSG till 15 October 2011, when he was boarded out by a Medical Board at Army Base Hospital Delhi under the aegis of HQ Delhi Area.

Nk Surender Singh has been sanctioned pensionary and terminal benefits viz-a-viz retirement gratuity Rs.2,11,458/-, Commutation of pension Rs.11,35,809/-, Armed Forces PF Rs.6,48,195/-, Army Group Insurance Rs.1,13,849/- and Army Group Disability Cover Rs.10 lakhs, Final settlement of accounts Rs.89,705/- and ex-gratia from welfare fund Rs.10,000/-. He is also entitled to an ex-gratia compensation of Rs.9 lakhs for 100% disability which will be processed separately. He has been sanctioned a pension of Rs.25,254/- per month which includes service elements and war injury elements.

His Ex Servicemen Health Scheme Card has also been dispatched to the Zila Sainik Board, Jhajjar District on 05 October 2012 for handing over to the individual.

As regards, financial donations received from various private entities, in accordance with the Service Rules, only contributions to the NSG Central Welfare Fund were accepted. For financial contributions on individual names, only amounts received for the NOK of the deceased were accepted and paid to the NOK. Other contributions were returned to the donors in accordance with rules with the proviso that the same be remitted to the NSG Central Welfare Fund. Therefore, the Cheque of Rs.7 lakh received from Mr. MS Dhoni was for the NSG Central Welfare Fund and was credited accordingly.

The Government has taken all care to pay all entitled terminal benefits due to Nk Surender Singh. In case, he still has any grievance, the Ministry of Defence is prepared to look into it.


The issue related to delay in pension is sad and prevalent all over the govt including in civilian side. I know firsthand how my mother-in-law had to struggle over a year to get the pension sanctioned after her IAS husband passed away. Babugiri of India is such a slow grind for anyone dealing with govt but it is especially an emotional drain when it comes to pensions or death benefits. Genesis for these tedious and lengthy processes lies in old times when frauds were prevalent due to lack of identity and verification methods. It's about time they take a more compassionate look and at least sanction some money right away to these unfortunate folks.

I think AK Antony has just approved that 50% of benefits should be paid immediately and rest when babugiri is complete. Kudos to him if it gets implemented!

Second point that we should all take note of is handsome compensation that govt gives to not only officers but also saniks -

Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan (NOK) - Rs. 1.3 Corer + a Flat + Enhanced pension + usual benefits/perks
Havildar Gajendar Singh (NOK) - Rs. 1.27 Corer+ Petrol pump + Flat + Rs. 15 Lakh (for mother)+ Enhanced pension

Nk Surender Singh - Injury Acoustic trauma, lost hearing in left ear, in press conference he could people without trouble, so he is not deaf. ( In my engineering school this (busting year) used to happen each year to couple of freshmen students during Ragging. No one thought that was big deal than now it seems like that was major injury)

Rs 30 Laks cash+ Rs 10Lakh medical cover+ Rs 25K/month pension in place of regular pension. Since pension is half of your last drawn salary, he would get paid as if he drew Rs 50K/month as his last salary. Not bad for a nayak/sanik.

RamaY
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby RamaY » 08 Dec 2012 03:49

Rohitvatsji

I see that IA ordered 114 LCHs and nearly 159+100 = 259 Dhruvs. Are we any closer to the Air deployed division strength formations that you projected couple of years ago?

Are there any plans to integrate the heavy lifters that would bring Light-Artilary or pinakas to front lines into this mix?

With a production capacity of 40 Dhruvs/yr, How does the force structure look in say 2014-15?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 08 Dec 2012 10:57

RamaY wrote:Rohitvatsji

I see that IA ordered 114 LCHs and nearly 159+100 = 259 Dhruvs. Are we any closer to the Air deployed division strength formations that you projected couple of years ago? Are there any plans to integrate the heavy lifters that would bring Light-Artilary or pinakas to front lines into this mix? With a production capacity of 40 Dhruvs/yr, How does the force structure look in say 2014-15?


RamaY - first and foremost, please to drop the 'ji' part. Mucho embarrassing, I tell you... :oops:

Coming to air-assault capability, based on what I've read, the plans in the army call for the following airlift capability -

- ability to airlift a Company of infantry at Corps level
- ability to airlift a Battalion at Command level
- ability to airlift a Brigade at Army HQ level

While the Corps HQ may well be able to have organic capability using Dhruv helicopters, at Command and AHQ level, IA will require helicopters in the Mi-17 class. And there is yet no clarity how this is going to come about.

As for Air Assault (AA) Division - well, this is a freakishly expensive proposition. I don't see this happening anytime over next 10-years - and honestly, if you ask me, we don't need one. I would rather see each Corps HQ being able to deploy a Brigade (against planned capacity of a Company) worth of Air Assault troops than a large Air Assault Division.

Having said that - the role and requirement for helicopters is appreciated greatly in the IA. As I said sometime before, the 65,000 Crore tag for MSC for NE is more likely because of large amount of organic helicopter elements.

Pinaka and light artillery can be pre-positioned and should ideally not require last minute induction into a theater. In case of a MSC, organic lift will allow movement of M777 guns between linear and lateral axis. So, rather than have medium airlift concentrated in a single AA Division - it would be better to provide such capability across the board.

LCH and WSI-Dhruv is form part of the Combat Aviation Bde at Corps HQ level - CA Bde is most likely to have a mix of WSI-Dhruv+LUH+Dhruv+some medium lift capability. I think one can add LCH to this equation once they come online...in case of Strike Corps, the main role of heavy hitting will be done by Apaches.

Presence of Rudra (WSI-Dhruv) and LCH combo with Pivot Corps gives them tremendous firepower and flexibility to deploy that firepower.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 08 Dec 2012 12:35

-self deleted-
Last edited by Nikhil T on 08 Dec 2012 12:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 08 Dec 2012 12:35

IA Major killed in training exercise

An Indian Army Major was killed while practicing bomb disposal near Jhansi on Wednesday morning.

Major Ashish Kumar Rai was practicing at Babina Range, near Jhansi when one of the bombs did not go off. After waiting for some time, Major Rai led a team to inspect the bomb. Unfortunately, the bomb went off as soon as they approached it and Major Rai was killed in the incident.

Major Rai hailed from Patna, Bihar and was posted at Meerut. He had come to Jhansi in a training camp. His family has been informed about the incident.


Very sad...RIP.


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 09 Dec 2012 01:48

My analysis on Artillery Divisions in Indian Army.

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/artillery-divisions-in-indian-army.html

I've tried to cover the philosophy behind having artillery divisions in first place and likely equipment profile. Will try and address the composition of the same in next post on artillery divisions.

Bouquets and brickbats are welcome...!!!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ShauryaT » 09 Dec 2012 03:36

RamaY wrote:Rohitvatsji

I see that IA ordered 114 LCHs and nearly 159+100 = 259 Dhruvs. Are we any closer to the Air deployed division strength formations that you projected couple of years ago?

Are there any plans to integrate the heavy lifters that would bring Light-Artilary or pinakas to front lines into this mix?

With a production capacity of 40 Dhruvs/yr, How does the force structure look in say 2014-15?
"Air Lift" is by and large the preserve of the air force. Indian capability in this aspect was the ability to lift a brigade. With the addition of c130 and C17 and pending acquisition of chinooks along with older assets, we should be approaching the levels to lift a division. AAC rotary assets aid tactical lift, mobility and air assault. In terms of mobility sea transport is equally important and towards this eagerly look forward to the LPD/LHD builds.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby titash » 09 Dec 2012 09:08

@ rohitvats,

Exceptionally well researched and well composed article sirjee!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 09 Dec 2012 11:41

titash wrote:@ rohitvats,

Exceptionally well researched and well composed article sirjee!


Thanks...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 09 Dec 2012 11:59

ShauryaT wrote:<SNIP>"Air Lift" is by and large the preserve of the air force. Indian capability in this aspect was the ability to lift a brigade. With the addition of C-130 and C-17 and pending acquisition of chinooks along with older assets, we should be approaching the levels to lift a division. AAC rotary assets aid tactical lift, mobility and air assault. In terms of mobility sea transport is equally important and towards this eagerly look forward to the LPD/LHD builds.


Air-lift (vanilla infantry), Air Assault and Air Lift (Paratroopers) are different terms and require different kind and level of equipment profile.

- We have had the 50 (I) Para Bde for a very long time but I don't think we have the airlift capacity for entire brigade at one go. And here again, air-lift capacity needs to be defined in terms of range as well. This may change once the C-17 come on line but I don't think we still will be able to airlift entire bde at one go.

- Ability to airlift a vanilla infantry formation is totally different thing. Remember, while IL-76 can accommodate 120 paratroopers but 200+ fully equipped soldiers. So, while may lack ability to move a Para Bde at one go, I think we can manage an infantry bde. But what we lack is a dedicated air-mobile division - a formation trained and tasked to move by air. 54 ID is emerging as expeditionary formation under IA - it already has an amphibious bde under it and IMO, it needs an air-mobile bde which can serve as Rapid Reaction Force (RRF) for out of area contingency.

- Air Assault is different ball game all together..it is a very expensive proposition and I've already outlined the gradual capability building plan of the IA in this aspect. Apart from AA forces, we as it is need helicopter assets of medium and heavy lift capability to give mobility to the planned MSC in NE in particular and other formations in general.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 09 Dec 2012 15:06

You got mail RV...

As always, another very good blog post from you :D

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 09 Dec 2012 15:30

On the force mix in an Arty Div, I suspect that there will be:

a) 2 X Gun Bde (3-4 Regts with M46 and/or FH-77B)
b) 1 X Rocket Bde (1 Regt of Smerch + 1-2 Regts with Grads and/or Pinaka)
c) 1 X Composite Missile Bde (1 Brahmos unit + 1 Prithvi unit, which could be replaced by Prahar in future)
d) HQ resources/ unit could include UAV and SATA radars & eqpt.

My 2 cents...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 09 Dec 2012 23:33

Ajay Sharma wrote:On the force mix in an Arty Div, I suspect that there will be:

a) 2 X Gun Bde (3-4 Regts with M46 and/or FH-77B)
b) 1 X Rocket Bde (1 Regt of Smerch + 1-2 Regts with Grads and/or Pinaka)
c) 1 X Composite Missile Bde (1 Brahmos unit + 1 Prithvi unit, which could be replaced by Prahar in future)
d) HQ resources/ unit could include UAV and SATA radars & eqpt.

My 2 cents...


Actually, you're pretty much close to what I've been able to discern... :D

BTW, thanks for the good word...and you've reply to your e-mail.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby D Roy » 10 Dec 2012 00:16

Add Nirbhay GLCM units as well.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ShauryaT » 10 Dec 2012 07:19

rohitvats wrote:
Air-lift (vanilla infantry), Air Assault and Air Lift (Paratroopers) are different terms and require different kind and level of equipment profile.

- We have had the 50 (I) Para Bde for a very long time but I don't think we have the airlift capacity for entire brigade at one go. And here again, air-lift capacity needs to be defined in terms of range as well. This may change once the C-17 come on line but I don't think we still will be able to airlift entire bde at one go.
Yes, confusing terms and I should have been more clear. I was including "civilian" aircraft in that "Indian Capability" should have clarified. With the new assets coming online, should be able to life an entire brigade with just military assets in one go. For a division upwards of 50 C17 level loads will be needed. Long way off with military aircraft alone.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 11 Dec 2012 10:29

rohitvats wrote:My analysis on Artillery Divisions in Indian Army.

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/artillery-divisions-in-indian-army.html

I've tried to cover the philosophy behind having artillery divisions in first place and likely equipment profile. Will try and address the composition of the same in next post on artillery divisions.

Bouquets and brickbats are welcome...!!!

excellent work Rohit Miyan. added my comments...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 11 Dec 2012 11:08

Here is a typical TOE of an Indian Arty Div (courtesy ORBAT.com)
2 Gun Brigades (3 Regiments each)
1 155mm tracked SPHs
2 motorised 155mm SPHs
3 155mm towed howitzers
1 Regiment of 122mm BM-21 Grad MBRLs
1 Brahmos I Cruise Missile Regiment
1 Prithvi SS-150 Missile Group

1 Composite Brigade comprising
1 Prithvi SS-150 Missile Group
1 Pinaka MBRL Regiment (18 launchers)
1 Smerch-M MBRLs Regiment (12 launchers)

1 RSTA Group comprising six Searcher II/Heron II UAVs
2 TPQ-37 Firefinder counterbattery radars
4 Medium-range, BEL-built Stentor battlefield surveillance radars

in future, TATA/OFB/Kalyani manufactured Howitzers, longer legged Prithvi, Prahaar and Shaurya/Nirbhay Missiles would also grace this TOE.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rajeshks » 11 Dec 2012 13:04

2 Gun Brigades (3 Regiments each)
1 155mm tracked SPHs
2 motorised 155mm SPHs
3 155mm towed howitzers

dream?? :cry:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 11 Dec 2012 14:22

stuff like the Pzh2k for the tracked SPH makes no sense to me, its in essence the hull and engine of a Leo2A5 tank with the turrent glued to it. Bhim + T6 atleast will generate common parts with the Arjun fleet.
if that is not sikular enough, the Donar which is Pzh turret on a MLRS tracked chassis will be a lot cheaper albeit not as rugged maybe...in demos it looks to be almost getting its back broken by the massive recoil forces.
but being light and small might be easier to use the kind of roads and terrains we have.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 12 Dec 2012 04:29

rajeshks wrote:2 Gun Brigades (3 Regiments each)
1 155mm tracked SPHs
2 motorised 155mm SPHs
3 155mm towed howitzers
dream?? :cry:
Do you think these regiments don't exists or they are excessive.
we have the M46 uprated to 155mm. we have 155mm Bofors towed Howitzers???
i got this from Orbat.com, let me also validate this.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_20036 » 16 Dec 2012 18:28

Six soldiers killed, 1 missing in deadly Siachen avalanche

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 638657.cms

NEW DELHI: Six Indian Army soldiers were killed and one is missing in a deadly avalanche that struck the Siachen Glacier on Sunday, Times Now reported.
The Siachen Glacier in the eastern Karakoram range of the Himalayas isthe world's highest and coldest battlefield, with both Indian and Pakistani soldiers stationed here. At 70km long, it is the longest glacier inthe Karakoram and second-longest in the world's non-polar areas.
The Line of Control between India and Pakistan ends here.
The tragedy occurred in sub-sector Hanif of the glacier around 6am when troops were moving between posts at 19,000 feet. All six bodies have been pulled out of the snow. A rescue operation is underway to trace the missing soldier.
More details of the tragedy are awaited.

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Know your Army @ Mumbai

Postby KBDagha » 16 Dec 2012 22:48

I got a chance today to attend KYA @ Mumbai in Shivaji Park. Following weapons were put on display: T-90S, T-72M, BMP-2, WZT-3 ARV, Bofors 155/39, M-30, L-70 AAA , ZU-23 AAA, Flycatcher Radar, Another two radars, Various Machines guns and mortars.

Crowd management was difficult and taking decent pictures was next to impossible. However, will shortly upload pics and share the link.

Regards,
Khambat Dagha

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SaiK » 18 Dec 2012 00:54

no more tatra trucks means jelcz?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby D Roy » 18 Dec 2012 01:05

M-30?

do you mean 130 mm M-46?


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