Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

[SBajwa]

Question to BRF jirga.....pldase to explain significance of the above pic.

Haathi ke Daant! Khane ke aur! Dikhane ke aur!

[putnanja]

Read what was written please, not provide your own interpretation. The issue is not of Army going off half cocked & attacking without GOI permission, but in this specific case, of managing public perception better. The case being made so far by Rohitvats (to whose post I replied) is that Bikram Singh has done everything by the book & the interaction with the media at the traditional conference was a sideshow.

In which case, given public sentiment over this issue, he should have handled it/addressed it before this particular event. If GOI rules don't allow such a senior person to do even this, or talk openly on such a matter, then its high time, GOI rules are changed. The Army are not guard dogs to be displayed on Republic Day, but should be treated as part of the ruling structure, not someone to just order around.

I was responding to your earlier post

Exactly my point regarding the ceasefire limiting options, read the last line of my post about a toxic, fake peace - why are you so defensive and worried about everyone blaming the IA?

The point is that the message has to change, about somehow getting the Pakistanis to back off. As to how many raids have occurred - 4 per media reports (2 of theirs, and 2 of ours), though there may have been several more that didn't make it to public news, like the event during Paddy's time.

The wider issue is, that the Pakistanis are clearly seeing this as some sort of thing they can continue, again & again, and our limited head taking in return is not deterring them.

Its the IA's job to find a way to stop them (for their own & the nation's sake), if they cannot thanks to the antics of the GOI, a way has to be found to put pressure on the GOI to change its policy.

[SaiK]

mm.. imho, IA should not take couple of hours to plan a counter skirmish for a well known enemy setup. Anything more than that means, either IA is planning big time war, or they/we/GoI want to silence this whole affair.

[RamaY]

mm.. imho, IA should not take couple of hours to plan a counter skirmish for a well known enemy setup. Anything more than that means, either IA is planning big time war, or they/we/GoI want to silence this whole affair.

They had two days of advance notice from those Pakis. Pakis complained to the world that IA conducted a cross-border raid on Jan 6th. And IA went into planning mode and will come back in 1-3 months.

Does IA believes that TSPA is same as them, the same way WKKs believe that Pakis are same as Indians?

Let us wait till April 6 or April 8th and see what happens.

[Karan M]

Read what was written please, not provide your own interpretation. The issue is not of Army going off half cocked & attacking without GOI permission, but in this specific case, of managing public perception better. The case being made so far by Rohitvats (to whose post I replied) is that Bikram Singh has done everything by the book & the interaction with the media at the traditional conference was a sideshow.

In which case, given public sentiment over this issue, he should have handled it/addressed it before this particular event. If GOI rules don't allow such a senior person to do even this, or talk openly on such a matter, then its high time, GOI rules are changed. The Army are not guard dogs to be displayed on Republic Day, but should be treated as part of the ruling structure, not someone to just order around.

I was responding to your earlier post

Exactly my point regarding the ceasefire limiting options, read the last line of my post about a toxic, fake peace - why are you so defensive and worried about everyone blaming the IA?

The point is that the message has to change, about somehow getting the Pakistanis to back off. As to how many raids have occurred - 4 per media reports (2 of theirs, and 2 of ours), though there may have been several more that didn't make it to public news, like the event during Paddy's time.

The wider issue is, that the Pakistanis are clearly seeing this as some sort of thing they can continue, again & again, and our limited head taking in return is not deterring them.

Its the IA's job to find a way to stop them (for their own & the nation's sake), if they cannot thanks to the antics of the GOI, a way has to be found to put pressure on the GOI to change its policy.

And where in that post is it written that the Army should go off on its own?
A way has to be found to put pressure on the GOI to change its policy, clearly indicates the system has to be changed. That means pressure from the media, the common public, everyone - which includes retired Armed forces personnel who have gained a voice through the media. Not all can be silenced - one hopes

Nowhere did it say ignore the GOI policy and do whatever needs be done, because a) it is bad for the long term as it sets the wrong precedent and b ) its not likely to happen either

[putnanja]

Commanding officers in ‘line of fire’

...
Being the commanding officer (CO) of an Army battalion along the tense Line of Control (LoC) between India and Pakistan may not have any parallels in other careers. Ever since the killing of two soldiers and beheading of one of them last week, his men are agitated and want to take revenge. "The situation is not very different for any of the COs along the LOC, their men are all angry," says a Colonel posted in Jammu & Kashmir about his contemporaries who are commanding Army battalions. "The men feel that we have been humiliated," he adds.
...
...
In the Mendhar sector, where the beheading occurred last week, almost a similar drama had played out over a decade ago. Pakistani soldiers carried out a cross-border raid on an Indian post. The colonel who commanded the infantry unit ordered a retaliatory raid across the border. Revenge was taken, his men's morale was at an all-time high, but his superiors weren't pleased. A court of inquiry (CoI) followed, and the CO, a rising star whom his contemporaries thought would make it to senior ranks, paid with his career. He couldn't even become a Brigadier.

Sometime a CO's career can be tripped up by the complex relation he has with his superiors. Last time when a high-profile beheading of a soldier hit the headlines in 2000, it led to the CO's career going into a tailspin, being blamed for the raid by his immediate superior. The fact was something else. The officer, Colonel Sandes, had to fight a protracted legal battle upto the Supreme Court to prove that he had been warning his seniors prior to the 2000 raid that the particular post was vulnerable, and it must be shifted.
...
...

[RamaY]

Commanding officers in ‘line of fire’

Looks like IA leadership is no different from INC leadership.

[Karan M]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/torqueavia ... 506565905/

Question to BRF jirga.....pldase to explain significance of the above pic.

New Brahmos raising? A new regiment perhaps?

The missile nose cones look like dummy demo units for display - is this a 26 Jan pic? The comms array is there, so these are operational launchers, but they have just put a fake cone on the actual missile tubes to represent how the missile looks when launching I guess.

[putnanja]

And where in that post is it written that the Army should go off on its own?
A way has to be found to put pressure on the GOI to change its policy, clearly indicates the system has to be changed. That means pressure from the media, the common public, everyone - which includes retired Armed forces personnel who have gained a voice through the media. Not all can be silenced - one hopes

Nowhere did it say ignore the GOI policy and do whatever needs be done, because a) it is bad for the long term as it sets the wrong precedent and b ) its not likely to happen either

Not just that one post, but the series of posts ...

If the Army had indeed inflicted heavy pain, versus a limited tit for tat, then we would not be having these incidents today. Like it or not, they have not been able to deter the Pakistanis.

Question is what did the IA do (fire assaults were quoted at the time) which taught the Pakistanis a lesson? This should be the lesson learnt.

Keeping an artificial peace, with soldiers killed in this manner, is toxic. Both for the country and the Army itself.

Exactly. Which is why I brought up the fire assault stuff. Was that the reason the Pakistanis stopped their Kaluchak style antics and their fidayeen attacks which were rising to the level of targeting army non combatants?

If that is the only method to stop these crazed idiots, then its what needs to be done, no ifs and buts. I find it shameful that the rest of India sits easily on the basis of an artificial peace whereas the Army suffers such acts and cannot even respond equally.

[Karan M]

Commanding officers in ‘line of fire’

...
Being the commanding officer (CO) of an Army battalion along the tense Line of Control (LoC) between India and Pakistan may not have any parallels in other careers. Ever since the killing of two soldiers and beheading of one of them last week, his men are agitated and want to take revenge. "The situation is not very different for any of the COs along the LOC, their men are all angry," says a Colonel posted in Jammu & Kashmir about his contemporaries who are commanding Army battalions. "The men feel that we have been humiliated," he adds.

Perhaps the wrong incident to raise this, but the strong esprit de corps across the Army is evident here.

...
...

In the Mendhar sector, where the beheading occurred last week, almost a similar drama had played out over a decade ago. Pakistani soldiers carried out a cross-border raid on an Indian post. The colonel who commanded the infantry unit ordered a retaliatory raid across the border. Revenge was taken, his men's morale was at an all-time high, but his superiors weren't pleased. A court of inquiry (CoI) followed, and the CO, a rising star whom his contemporaries thought would make it to senior ranks, paid with his career. He couldn't even become a Brigadier.

Dismaying..

Sometime a CO's career can be tripped up by the complex relation he has with his superiors. Last time when a high-profile beheading of a soldier hit the headlines in 2000, it led to the CO's career going into a tailspin, being blamed for the raid by his immediate superior. The fact was something else. The officer, Colonel Sandes, had to fight a protracted legal battle upto the Supreme Court to prove that he had been warning his seniors prior to the 2000 raid that the particular post was vulnerable, and it must be shifted.
...
...

Usual BS that goes on in any large organization.

[chaanakya]

At least I don't this privilege to talk nonsense and pass my jaundiced views as some high sounding opinion....

Actually that is what you are trying to do. Pass your opinion of current situation as high sounding opinion while perception of the reality is quite different among those whose moneis he is living off.

[putnanja]

‘Ceasefire violation, beheading not new’

...
Indian soldiers were preparing a communication trench, crawl trench and observation post in that village, which attracted Pakistani attention leading to the conflict. Firing continued even after the killing.

Meanwhile, in the last two days, Indian soldiers gunned down three people, but are yet to recover their bodies to ascertain whether they are soldiers or infiltrators.

On Sunday night, there was an unsuccessful attempt from Pakistan to break into Indian territory to take away the bodies.

...

[chaanakya]

Commanding officers in ‘line of fire’

Looks like IA leadership is no different from INC leadership.

Have you never heard of a line of succession??

[Karan M]

And where in that post is it written that the Army should go off on its own?
A way has to be found to put pressure on the GOI to change its policy, clearly indicates the system has to be changed. That means pressure from the media, the common public, everyone - which includes retired Armed forces personnel who have gained a voice through the media. Not all can be silenced - one hopes

Nowhere did it say ignore the GOI policy and do whatever needs be done, because a) it is bad for the long term as it sets the wrong precedent and b ) its not likely to happen either

Not just that one post, but the series of posts ...

Clearly reading these posts in the context they were set in, is something that you missed this time around. So let me explain.

If the Army had indeed inflicted heavy pain, versus a limited tit for tat, then we would not be having these incidents today. Like it or not, they have not been able to deter the Pakistanis.

So where in that does it say that they should go off on their own? Is it written there? No. So that was your assumption.

Question is what did the IA do (fire assaults were quoted at the time) which taught the Pakistanis a lesson? This should be the lesson learnt.

Keeping an artificial peace, with soldiers killed in this manner, is toxic. Both for the country and the Army itself.

Which fire assault/s, if you had known about the incidents in question, instead of jumping to your own conclusions, were undertaken with the express knowledge of the GOI, including then DM, George Fernandes. Heck, media even covered the destruction of a Pak brigade HQ during Parakram.

Exactly. Which is why I brought up the fire assault stuff. Was that the reason the Pakistanis stopped their Kaluchak style antics and their fidayeen attacks which were rising to the level of targeting army non combatants?

If that is the only method to stop these crazed idiots, then its what needs to be done, no ifs and buts. I find it shameful that the rest of India sits easily on the basis of an artificial peace whereas the Army suffers such acts and cannot even respond equally.

Again, nothing there to indicate that the Army should do anything on their own. Only that the current fake ceasefire imposed in 2003, may need to be changed to free the Army to do the one thing that worked. Which is why I was asking rohitvats, since he tends to follow Army related matters with detail.

Which method (fire assaults - the same thing rohitvats also brought up) means a change in GOI policy, which is what the media/rest of india should be working towards.

Net, you didnt understand the context of the discussion, jumped to a conclusion, and then instead of asking for a clarification, have persisted. Great, now that is done, I hope with the explanation, now you understand what I meant, and we can draw this sidetrack to a close.

[SagarAg]

Our COAS in press conference today kept on repeating " In case of Provocation". How much more provocation does he needs ? . I am sorry to be frank but IMHO his full speech was not at all a morale booster for our IA.

[Karan M]

Have you never heard of a line of succession??

Its not always a line of succession, but plain and simple, passing the buck. Some will put a tendentious decision on a junior and avoid censure, then be the "safe people". Same as in many Govt organizations. After all, the same behaviour stalled Army acquisitions as babu after babu sent around files with notations, till Fernandes sent a couple of folks to Siachen. Then things improved till F himself got tagged in Tehelka. Then he stopped taking decisions (a cynical ploy by the INC supported Tehelka affected operational security, such is the zero sum game played by indian politicians).

If you speak to a lot of folks who retire early from the Army (Captain, Major, Colonel), the complaints are the same. The politicking, the lack of support from seniors, the amount of tricky decision making, the limited career opportunities in light of the other points, and also the toll on health and family, with such a stressful environment.

These issues are not unique to India. Ricks wrote a scathing indictment of the US Army recently in terms of how Generals/officers get promoted no matter what, as versus WW2 when fail/ing formation commanders were summarily dismissed.

Net, human nature does not change. A million strong organization, will have its share of mind numbing bureaucracy, flawed by the rules implementers, and people who get shortchanged because they didn't play the game.

All said & done, the Armed forces remain a bastion the rest of india, still looks upto. Kargil proved that faith. The sort of things that were asked of young officers & soldiers - all the way upto Colonel level - with volunteers going to their certain death (I remember Lt Col Viswanathan's death - he knew he was going to his death, but did so, to shock the brass into realizing the gravity of the situation). How many armed forces can claim such an esprit de corps.

I just hope the senior brass don't let down these men (and women). They deserve better.

[chaanakya]

In case you did not notice in your eagerness to pass judgement, the Army Chief was in a middle of annual Army Day eve press conference. And you think just because he did not conduct himself as per 'your expectation', he has failed in his job? Pretty rich, actually...

Well I am glad that at least you noticed. And well he is yet to prove himself in any way one can judge an Army Chief. And yes it is my expectation. If you dont agree that is your problem. Did Army Chief tell you that he doesnt agree with my expectations?

As if they are going to oblige you with the same...

Well being professional they may keep quite about it and take heads later. And then we will know that there was some raid by IA and Pakis extracted their price. Of course If he remians there he would tell us in next pre Army Day press conference about what he is going to do.

Revealing orders? Seriously....

We just learnt from him that he has given orders not to be passive if this recur. What idiocy is this?

Oh! yes....while you're at it, please do pass your address while you're at it...IA HQ will need the same to pass to you the proof of their actions in the form as you deem fit.

Why when you are here , we will know. But dont worry about IA HQ. I get their briefings from Empty statements by Chief.

<SNIP>

[/quote]

[Muppalla]

The best retalliation should come from Airforce like shooting down Atlantique for air space violations.

[Karan M]

The best retalliation should come from Airforce like shooting down Atlantique for air space violations.

Another fact is that the AF seems to be currently best placed against its Pakistani counterpart, along with the Navy. Till VKS forced the issue, other chiefs seem to have done little to improve the operational capability of the Army.

Thats a whole different (and painful issue). We have ordered stuff from Russia to build up the ammo inventory, but its going to take at least 2 years before the Army is in anyway a half decent form in terms of stockpiles.

If there is anything in which the GOI has proven to be a complete disaster in, apart from this handling Pakistan issue, its the support of the Army's procurement. Given how anti Cold Start some senior folks were (wikileaks), was this a deliberate move by the GOI to rein in the Army, till VKS embarassed them into action? Because some idiot low level bureaucrat leaked his letter to embarass him, but it backfired

[putnanja]

...
Net, you didnt understand the context of the discussion, jumped to a conclusion, and then instead of asking for a clarification, have persisted. Great, now that is done, I hope with the explanation, now you understand what I meant, and we can draw this sidetrack to a close.

Nope, you started off with how the IA is not responding properly and should have responded as it did during parakram etc, and only later did you come around to saying IA should influence GoI policy. That can be seen in the series of posts that you made. The fact that IA cannot respond in similar manner on its own seemed to escape you till the last post where you mention that the DM was aware of what was happening during parakram. Yeah, I have followed kargil pretty closely, so it is not new to me.

So yeah, let us draw this sidetrack to a close.

[Karan M]

Nope, you started off with how the IA is not responding properly

Actually I didnt say anything of the sort, I merely pointed out that its current actions are not able to deter the Pakistanis, something which is fairly obvious. Why you chose to take that as something worthy of your silly attempt to twist what I said & then come up with even sillier replies is beyond me...

and should have responded as it did during parakram etc,

So, now after you were caught out, you realize the context of what RV & I were discussing (that tit for tat beheading strikes dont work & the only thing that worked after kaluchak was a fire assault) and this has happened during parakram, something you clearly had no idea of, and are now attempting to claim that you knew about...amusing..

and only later did you come around to saying IA should influence GoI policy. That can be seen in the series of posts that you made.

LOL, actually my replies to RV clearly indicate that something needs to be done @ the policy level instead of perpetuating a fake ceasefire that actually isn't one. You not only didn't understand this, you jumped to your own silly conclusion and attempted to hijack it to play the hero out to "defend the army", claiming they were being unfairly targeted, when the discussion was more about finding ways to correct the situation..not only can you not contribute intelligently on anything army related since you are no rohitvats, but there you tried playing the herrow.. ..

The fact that IA cannot respond in similar manner on its own seemed to escape you till the last post where you mention that the DM was aware of what was happening during parakram.

Actually, if you weren't being contentious & had actually spared half a thought the discussion - which is exactly where the discussion which I had with RV was ending towards - I wanted to know his thoughts (not yours btw, since he does follow the Army & I doubt you have any idea there) about whether there were any other options available bar the fire assault one, which I only brought up, knowing fully well what that entailed.

So not only did you not have a clue of what was being discussed, you attempted to twist my words and on top of it, are busy attempting to tell me what I thought. Congratulations, do join the GOI as spinner in chief, you seem amply qualified for the post.

Yeah, I have followed kargil pretty closely, so it is not new to me.

Yeah sure...go on, complete the process of making a complete joke out of yourself. The incident under discussion didnt occur during Kargil, it occurred after the Kaluchak attacks.

And yeah, lets draw the discussion to a close. I normally go to fairly reasonable levels to keep a discussion civil, but something tells me you don't deserve it, so go ahead, keep this going & lets see your knowledge of kargil and your telepathy and where it goes..

[Karan M]

Take a look at what was written in my opening post itself, as versus what [edited. No name calling. ramana]putnanja claims it to be.. that somehow I asked for the Army to operate on its own, in a vacuum:

If the Army had indeed inflicted heavy pain, versus a limited tit for tat, then we would not be having these incidents today. Like it or not, they have not been able to deter the Pakistanis.

Which remains a fact. Tit for tat beheadings clearly do not work!! People here are hoping for a tit for tat strike, which will not solve the matter and it may only reoccur in the future, when Pak wants to up the ante!

It does not point to an encouraging picture. These people who were beheaded were not just soldiers, they were fellow Indians and hence the Army, and the GOI are both accountable to the Indian public to explain just what they will do to prevent such incidents from recurring in the future.

Note, the Army & GOI together!

and the post ...ending with:

In which case, I do hope the pressure from this one case keeps building up, till both the GOI and Army figure out a way to respond, effectively.

[edited. No need for name calling. ramana]

[Prem Kumar]

<SNIP>I am happy that FirstPost is calling him a dove. Even if he is not, this sort of media pressure is exactly what's needed.

Please, it is time we put such school boy thinking to rest. What were you expecting the IA Chief to do in a press conference? Behave like Sunny Deol and shout obscenities at PA/TSP to prove his credentials and make the jingoes on the board feel better?

And where is this fancy thinking coming from about media pressure forcing IA to do something? Was it media pressure which 'focred' IA to retaliate in the past against such acts by PA? Well, I don't think so.

There are two broad issues here - the stance by the GOI in terms of dealing with Pakistan and actual dealing on the ground/LOC by IA . IA is governed by its tactical and strategic doctrine in these matters. Whether media had picked up these reports or not, IA would have done what was required to be done - whether to avenge the murder of these soldiers or for securing tactical gains. Just read the Kargil book by General VP Malik on India 'taking measures' to 'correct' the LOC alignment for tactical gains.

And yes, Bikram Singh did take the sting out of Browne's statement, which was uncalled for. Even if there is some inter-services rivalry, this was not the time or place to air it. One suspects GOI's hand in this. Its clear Browne's statement didn't have UPA's blessing

Nope, I don't think it is inter-services rivalry. This is MOD written large over it. That statement by NAK Browne would have rattled bones across the border and WKK brigade on both sides would have asked for 'toning' down the message.

The thread sure has moved at a brisk pace in a few hours

Rohit: I am not expecting him to jump up & down in a press conference. But I was disappointed with his usage of qualifiers like "if this recurs" and also for downplaying ACM Browne's remarks. My suspicion is that it was a directive from the GOI. Whether it was a GOI directive or whether those were his own words - either way, it was a disappointing message to send. It basically gives Pakistan a bye for this round and threatens them in the next one. He could have conveyed a stronger message but didn't. Even if, at the ground level, IA retaliates, its important that justice is seen to be done.

Dont underestimate the role that media plays. I am fairly disgusted at the media in most issues, as are most others. But in this episode, media DID play an important role in highlighting the mutilation & exposing the PA for what it is. If they choose to, they can keep this issue burning for quite some time. The last time these beheadings happened, there was no summoning of the Pakistani ambassador, no national outcry and IIRC no flag meetings either.

[VinodTK]

PAK Special Forces Embalmed Indian Soldiers Head as trophies

[SBajwa]

from above article
In the Mendhar sector, where the beheading occurred last week, almost a similar drama had played out over a decade ago. Pakistani soldiers carried out a cross-border raid on an Indian post. The colonel who commanded the infantry unit ordered a retaliatory raid across the border. Revenge was taken, his men's morale was at an all-time high, but his superiors weren't pleased. A court of inquiry (CoI) followed, and the CO, a rising star whom his contemporaries thought would make it to senior ranks, paid with his career. He couldn't even become a Brigadier.

This is how Indian Army treats the natural born leaders!! Defense forces are also filled up with sycophants who only look for their own self interest and suck upto the people above them without any guts!! PATHETIC!

[AdityaM]

No army chief has in recent times come close to Gen Paddy and his TV speech
"the perpetrator of that particular outrage shall be punished so severely that their continuation thereafter in any form of fray will be doubtful."

[Victor]

It is worrying that the Indian army platoon was blind in the fog but the pakis could see well enough not just to shoot first but to chop off heads. It's likely that the pakis were equipped with thermal imagers during the raid and we obviously were not. We bought many units from Israel, so where are they being used if not on the paki border?

On the subject of the bekaar bluster and blabber following the beheading, we can be sure the pakis are smug in their belief that they achieved their goals and nothing will happen. They have done much worse many, many times with similar "stern" rebukes, warnings, demarches, dossiers and flag meetings which have only degenerated into chai-samosa sessions, free visas and kirket matches. The only time pakis will get worried is if Indian netas and generals save their hot air and keep silent.

[Indrajit]

No army chief has in recent times come close to Gen Paddy and his TV speech
"the perpetrator of that particular outrage shall be punished so severely that their continuation thereafter in any form of fray will be doubtful."

+1 I watched that Press Conference during Parakram,the way he handled the Press was great,his personality and presence was greater than any other chief after him perhaps barring JJ Singh.

[chaanakya]

It is worrying that the Indian army platoon was blind in the fog but the pakis could see well enough not just to shoot first but to chop off heads. It's likely that the pakis were equipped with thermal imagers during the raid and we obviously were not. We bought many units from Israel, so where are they being used if not on the paki border?

On the subject of the bekaar bluster and blabber following the beheading, we can be sure the pakis are smug in their belief that they achieved their goals and nothing will happen. They have done much worse many, many times with similar "stern" rebukes, warnings, demarches, dossiers and flag meetings which have only degenerated into chai-samosa sessions, free visas and kirket matches. The only time pakis will get worried is if Indian netas and generals save their hot air and keep silent.

Visa issue has started from Bagha - Atari border from today. The Army Day. We will be paying the price of the bluster by UPA and now FIM has reached the top in Army.

[rohitvats]

Gentlemen, I present to you the Brahmos Missile Regiment of 41st Artillery Division. Till now, only 40th Artillery Division was known to have a Brahmos Regiment. The contingent of Brahmos Regiment from 40 Arty Div featured in one of the RD-Parades. This is second time I'm seeing a Brahmos contingent and that too from an operational unit.

So, one can surmise that 2 x Brahmos Regiments are operational - some time ago there were reports of 3rd Brahmos Regiment having being raised - that could have likely gone to 42nd Artillery Division.

[Singha]

the missile that is poking out is that a fake plastic cover for parade purposes?

I kind of dislike our tradition of showing such fake pinakas poking out , colourful extra paint etc for parade purposes, our netas are dumb anyway no amt of exam notes will help them get it. show the kit in true field form, mud, dust, dents and all. gives a gritty real world feel to it.

[chaanakya]

Have you never heard of a line of succession??

Its not always a line of succession, but plain and simple, passing the buck. Some will put a tendentious decision on a junior and avoid censure, then be the "safe people". Same as in many Govt organizations. After all, the same behaviour stalled Army acquisitions as babu after babu sent around files with notations, till Fernandes sent a couple of folks to Siachen. Then things improved till F himself got tagged in Tehelka. Then he stopped taking decisions (a cynical ploy by the INC supported Tehelka affected operational security, such is the zero sum game played by indian politicians).

If you speak to a lot of folks who retire early from the Army (Captain, Major, Colonel), the complaints are the same. The politicking, the lack of support from seniors, the amount of tricky decision making, the limited career opportunities in light of the other points, and also the toll on health and family, with such a stressful environment.

These issues are not unique to India. Ricks wrote a scathing indictment of the US Army recently in terms of how Generals/officers get promoted no matter what, as versus WW2 when fail/ing formation commanders were summarily dismissed.

Net, human nature does not change. A million strong organization, will have its share of mind numbing bureaucracy, flawed by the rules implementers, and people who get shortchanged because they didn't play the game.

All said & done, the Armed forces remain a bastion the rest of india, still looks upto. Kargil proved that faith. The sort of things that were asked of young officers & soldiers - all the way upto Colonel level - with volunteers going to their certain death (I remember Lt Col Viswanathan's death - he knew he was going to his death, but did so, to shock the brass into realizing the gravity of the situation). How many armed forces can claim such an esprit de corps.

I just hope the senior brass don't let down these men (and women). They deserve better.

Point well taken. I was talking of the line of succession idea worked out by Gen DK and discussed threadbare during DOB issue of VKS.

I am well aware that this sort of things happen as many of my relatives have been , at times , at the receiving ends in the Army. But that did not diminish their respect and esprit de corps . Neither mine. I am sure even after this release of hot air, by and large people look up to the Army with greater respect than most of the institutions. This is where disappointment comes in when instead of Act we get the talk. Till he gave his press conference, no one was questioning as to why he did not speak. that is because We know Army would do what is in the best at its own time and place of choosing. The moment he spoke that became doubtful. No body questioned when Charlie spoke. It was brief and succinct and had enough punch. There was no further need to clarify.

Despite knowing the shortcomings Officers and Jawans in Armed forces would go into action without fearing death. Farting leadership notwithstanding.

[chaanakya]

It is worrying that the Indian army platoon was blind in the fog but the pakis could see well enough not just to shoot first but to chop off heads. It's likely that the pakis were equipped with thermal imagers during the raid and we obviously were not. We bought many units from Israel, so where are they being used if not on the paki border?

On the subject of the bekaar bluster and blabber following the beheading, we can be sure the pakis are smug in their belief that they achieved their goals and nothing will happen. They have done much worse many, many times with similar "stern" rebukes, warnings, demarches, dossiers and flag meetings which have only degenerated into chai-samosa sessions, free visas and kirket matches. The only time pakis will get worried is if Indian netas and generals save their hot air and keep silent.

That operation by PA raised more questions on field preparedness of our field units. Seems they were not sufficiently equipped nor any backup arrived in time. That too when there was a raid across the border by IA and should have expected retaliation. Brutality by PA is not an unknown factor. But it is surprising that our response was ill equipped. That posses grave , unnecessary and unacceptable level of danger to Platoons and companies which come in contact with enemies.

On Army day Pakis would be playing football. And Khursid tells us , just now in TV, that he would not allow peace process to be derailed at any cost. This shadowboxing between Chief and MEA is amusing to say the least.

[chaanakya]

No army chief has in recent times come close to Gen Paddy and his TV speech
"the perpetrator of that particular outrage shall be punished so severely that their continuation thereafter in any form of fray will be doubtful."

If I remember correctly his Operation BrassTack had Pakis soiling their pants.

[chaanakya]

from above article
In the Mendhar sector, where the beheading occurred last week, almost a similar drama had played out over a decade ago. Pakistani soldiers carried out a cross-border raid on an Indian post. The colonel who commanded the infantry unit ordered a retaliatory raid across the border. Revenge was taken, his men's morale was at an all-time high, but his superiors weren't pleased. A court of inquiry (CoI) followed, and the CO, a rising star whom his contemporaries thought would make it to senior ranks, paid with his career. He couldn't even become a Brigadier.

This is how Indian Army treats the natural born leaders!! Defense forces are also filled up with sycophants who only look for their own self interest and suck upto the people above them without any guts!! PATHETIC!

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column ... gh_1672185

It points to the far-from-exemplary role of former army chiefs JJ Singh and, to a lesser extent, Deepak Kapoor, in determining the line of succession in the army with sections of the political leadership. It speaks of how the chiefs used the boards of at least four or five senior officers to move them from the line of succession, focusing on Major General Ravi Arora in detail. The major general was in the same batch as Lt General Bikram Singh, a gold medalist, senior and yet a year younger. He did not get through the major general to lieutenant general board.

Some time back we did discuss how career of Maj Gen Ravi Arora was cut short. Gold Medalist and in the same batch. Every gentleman cadet , and that includes my cousin, has a dream of making it to General on merit and not on boot licking.

[rohitvats]

If I remember correctly his Operation BrassTack had Pakis soiling their pants.

That was General Sundarji in 1986-87 time period.

[Raja Bose]

That operation by PA raised more questions on field preparedness of our field units. Seems they were not sufficiently equipped nor any backup arrived in time.

Please don't make assumptions and start rona dhona without reason (there are plenty for reasons to indulge in that but the bolded portion is not one). Regardless of what type of night vision you use, you cannot see like daylight when it is foggy in that terrain - visit that area sometime and you will know. Morever, backup was present right there in form of rest of the unit. Hemraj and Sudhakar were scouts and were leading the formation and typically in such a formation, there will be some distance between the scouts and the rest of the patrol party - this is done on purpose. When the attack happened, the 2 scouts got isolated, probably warned the rest of the patrol and sacrificed their lives while the Pakis used covering fire to keep the rest of the IA patrol unit away till they made good their escape after beheading one jawan (the fact they couldn't successfully behead the other one tells you how much less time they had due to the IA retaliation). If the Pakis had waited for the main body of the patrol to walk into the ambush zone, it could have been much worse but then Paki SSG is also exclusively a na-mard unit better suited for assaulting women in burkhas.

[vivek_ahuja]

but then Paki SSG is also exclusively a na-mard unit better suited for assaulting women in burkhas.

That said, underestimating the enemy's action and capabilities is also a dangerous speculation. As you say, reality is different. But always expect the best and plan for the worst. I am sure Chaanakya would be more than happy buying all of us laddoos when he is proven wrong and the IA launches its response. In the meantime, it should not shame us to admit that the Paki operation was well planned and executed using precise intelligence about Indian dispositions in the sector.

And like Chaanakya, I will buy you all laddoos too for the day I am proven wrong by real world events.

[chaanakya]

If I remember correctly his Operation BrassTack had Pakis soiling their pants.

That was General Sundarji in 1986-87 time period.

Yes , That is correct. Perhaps I misunderstood Aditya statement. Gen Paddy , Does he refer to Gen S. Padmanabhan?

BTW I am listening to Lt Gen Parnaik . Very nice rebuttal. It is his job to control the rage and tempers of troop under his control.

[chaanakya]

That operation by PA raised more questions on field preparedness of our field units. Seems they were not sufficiently equipped nor any backup arrived in time.

Please don't make assumptions and start rona dhona without reason (there are plenty for reasons to indulge in that but the bolded portion is not one). Regardless of what type of night vision you use, you cannot see like daylight when it is foggy in that terrain - visit that area sometime and you will know. Morever, backup was present right there in form of rest of the unit. Hemraj and Sudhakar were scouts and were leading the formation and typically in such a formation, there will be some distance between the scouts and the rest of the patrol party - this is done on purpose. When the attack happened, the 2 scouts got isolated, probably warned the rest of the patrol and sacrificed their lives while the Pakis used covering fire to keep the rest of the IA patrol unit away till they made good their escape after beheading one jawan (the fact they couldn't successfully behead the other one tells you how much less time they had due to the IA retaliation). If the Pakis had waited for the main body of the patrol to walk into the ambush zone, it could have been much worse but then Paki SSG is also exclusively a na-mard unit better suited for assaulting women in burkhas.

There is no assumption. Two soldiers are dead. Happens all the time. But I would like to be proven wrong on my hypothesis , because it was no ordinary ambush. It was in retaliation of our attack on their post.

Lt Parniak says we would have inflicted much more casualty and not just the one. And he confirms that it was Ghatak Platoon which had gone for raid. I get the impression that he means business and surely retaliation would be there.