Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 22 Jan 2013 09:55

^^^ Please move this Khalistan discussion out side the IA Dhaga, we are going OT here...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby peter » 22 Jan 2013 11:35

Shrinivasan wrote:^^^ Please move this Khalistan discussion out side the IA Dhaga, we are going OT here...

How can this be OT? An Indian Army General who captured Haji Pir has been denied Pooja at the Gurudwara in Panchkula under the aegis of SGPC and Akali Dal. This is an anti national act. Same gurudwaras are being used by SGPC and Akali Dal to feleicitate the terrorists.

How can Government of India allow this?

How can BJP align with such deshdrohis as SGPC and SAD?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 22 Jan 2013 11:38

Army Anger forced PM to harden his stance




MADHAV NALAPAT NEW DELHI | 19th Jan 2013

Given the anger within the military at the perceived soft line of Manmohan Singh towards Pakistan, senior officials say that it is unlikely that the PM will "operationalise his agenda of offering major concessions to Pakistan in order to seek to change th
nger within the military, specifically the Army, forced Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to replace his conciliatory line on Pakistan with a more hard-line stance, warning Islamabad that the recent beheading of an Army jawan has made "business as usual" impossible.

According to a high-level source within the government, "The PM was directly told by Army chief General Bikram Singh that the mood of his men was ugly, and that they needed to know that the government felt the same way." Intelligence reports say, that comment about the PM in military messes across the country "now verges on the scatological", and that "the overwhelming perception of the men in uniform is that the PM would make any compromise" to secure peace with Pakistan. Other soundings reveal that "there has been considerable forward movement on plans to demilitarise (i.e. withdraw) from Siachen, and to accept the Pakistani contention that the international boundary in Sir Creek ought to be on the Indian side", rather than in the middle of the waterway.

Although the present Army chief faced a whispering campaign at the time of his elevation, with unnamed sources claiming that the spouses of his two children "had Pakistani roots and connections", a senior official clarified that this report was investigated thoroughly, "and the General was given a clean chit". He said that the Intelligence Bureau had cleared General Singh well before his elevation as Chief of Army Staff (COAS), "after meticulously sifting through the available evidence". What is clear is that the COAS has from the start adopted a hard-line stand on both AFPSA and Siachen, underlining the military view that retaining both "was vital to the national interest and to India's security", in the words of a senior officer. The visit by Gen Bikram Singh to the villages of the martyrs has gone down well with the troops, as have his forthright comments on the need for a "robust response" to Pakistani incursions.

Army sources are angry at the rumours — "deliberately spread by those seeking to get Pakistan off the hook by equating India with its neighbour" — about Indian troops too engaging in acts such as mutilation of bodies. These sources say that "to the Indian jawans, a dead soldier from the other side is no longer an enemy, but someone in uniform who needs to be respected". They point out that even during Kargil, "the bodies of dead Pakistani soldiers were treated with respect and buried in accordance with religious rites". This is "despite the savage mutilation of Lt Saurabh Kalia by Pakistan forces". Incidentally, even during the 1971 Bangladesh War, a Major Paul was subjected to the same barbaric treatment by the Pakistani troops. Army sources were amused at Pervez Musharraf's comment that "why would Pakistan forces return (mutilated) bodies" if they had committed such acts, pointing out that returning such bodies "has been a standard part of the psywar arsenal of Pakistan forces against India".



Given the anger within the military at the perceived soft line of Manmohan Singh towards Pakistan, senior officials say that it is unlikely that the PM will "operationalise his agenda of offering major concessions to Pakistan in order to seek to change the hearts and minds of the establishment there". The military has anyway been dismissive of such measures, pointing out that the Pakistan Army remains immune to any gesture of peace with India short of a handover of Kashmir. Officials say that the PM "has quietly been placing officials friendly to his views in key slots", such as at External Affairs, Home and Defence, "but that the public mood now makes such Gujral-style diplomacy unlikely, if not impossible". By its wanton act of beheading a soldier, the Pakistan Army may have lost its best chance of getting India out of Siachen.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby merlin » 22 Jan 2013 12:07

Expect MMS to continue to think of ways to let the Pakis have what they want. Even if the whole nation is against it he will continue to think of ways of selling this country. He has not "changed his mind" out of the goodness of his heart, public opinion has made him a little cautious now and he will lie low for a month of so to let the anger dissipate.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_20317 » 22 Jan 2013 12:20

peter wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:^^^ Please move this Khalistan discussion out side the IA Dhaga, we are going OT here...

How can this be OT? An Indian Army General who captured Haji Pir has been denied Pooja at the Gurudwara in Panchkula under the aegis of SGPC and Akali Dal. This is an anti national act. Same gurudwaras are being used by SGPC and Akali Dal to feleicitate the terrorists.

How can Government of India allow this?

How can BJP align with such deshdrohis as SGPC and SAD?


Peter ji, with all due respect the IA is a victim to this limited extent but the cause of action arose in the political sphere (perhaps even social sphere).

IA has already finished it job and IA can at best raise the issue with Raksha Mantri that too may be debatable under the present structure as the honorable General is an honorably retd. General.

The General will not been denied his right full place in the Gurudwara that matters the most, within ourselves.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23629 » 22 Jan 2013 12:50

PM will "operationalise his agenda of offering major concessions to Pakistan in order to seek to change the hearts and minds of the establishment there".


There is something wrong with the mental balance of MMS. How can this guy be so blind to the obvious? How can we be safe if our leader has so little understanding of the enemy? This guy does not have a military mind at all -- he has the mental makeup of a clerk. He is the laughing stock of the whole world, but is determined to keep sticking to the chair (like Nehru after the 1962 war).

A leader who has no understanding of military matters and zero insight into statecraft is dangerous for the people he claims to represent. The whole country comes under a threat. The job of the PM is to execute the wishes of the people -- but this guy is struggling with Indians all the time on behalf of the Pakistanis. Whose side is this idiot on? He should not push the army too far otherwise the unthinkable may happen. Better still, he should be kicked back into Pakistan from where he came.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 22 Jan 2013 12:57

peter wrote:<SNIP>How can BJP align with such deshdrohis as SGPC and SAD?


As I asked sometime back - need to ask BJP what Bharat in BJP stands for?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Gurinder P » 22 Jan 2013 13:42

varunkumar wrote:
PM will "operationalise his agenda of offering major concessions to Pakistan in order to seek to change the hearts and minds of the establishment there".


There is something wrong with the mental balance of MMS. How can this guy be so blind to the obvious? How can we be safe if our leader has so little understanding of the enemy? This guy does not have a military mind at all -- he has the mental makeup of a clerk. He is the laughing stock of the whole world, but is determined to keep sticking to the chair (like Nehru after the 1962 war).

A leader who has no understanding of military matters and zero insight into statecraft is dangerous for the people he claims to represent. The whole country comes under a threat. The job of the PM is to execute the wishes of the people -- but this guy is struggling with Indians all the time on behalf of the Pakistanis. Whose side is this idiot on? He should not push the army too far otherwise the unthinkable may happen. Better still, he should be kicked back into Pakistan from where he came.


The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Sun Tzu

A PM has to be a diplomat first and declare war only when actions require it. Having a few Jawans murdered sad as it is, does not justify war. A PM does not need to have military background, that is what the Military Brass is for. As for your bigoted comment near the end; my grandfather too was born in modern day Pakistan, but in the 30s it was still India. Mr. Singh has done a lot of good things for India, because if it wasn't for his economic policies, the Indian Military wouldn't be enjoying the gadgets it has today. If you want a general to run the country, say goodbye to your democracy because Military Rule is nastier; just look at the history books.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sachin » 22 Jan 2013 14:04

Gurinder P wrote:Mr. Singh has done a lot of good things for India, because if it wasn't for his economic policies, the Indian Military wouldn't be enjoying the gadgets it has today.

:lol:. I dont think this argument would have many supporters out here. And this may be off topic for this thread.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Jan 2013 14:47

Gurinder P wrote:The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Sun Tzu

A PM has to be a diplomat first and declare war only when actions require it. Having a few Jawans murdered sad as it is, does not justify war. A PM does not need to have military background, that is what the Military Brass is for. As for your bigoted comment near the end; my grandfather too was born in modern day Pakistan, but in the 30s it was still India. Mr. Singh has done a lot of good things for India, because if it wasn't for his economic policies, the Indian Military wouldn't be enjoying the gadgets it has today. If you want a general to run the country, say goodbye to your democracy because Military Rule is nastier; just look at the history books.


I think you are giving too less credit to the Fact that a short period in which the First family backed out from ruling the nation and PVNR and actions of the Indian public.

Who is advocating War? but blaming ones own soldiers, sharm el shekhs and Visa on arrival has been a very poor way of dealing with Pakis, plus no reprisals for repeated acts of Terror like 26/11, allowing Hurri rats to happily go an Jaunts to meet Pakis and Cheens, is clearly not the correct way to deal with pakis.

And unilateral adhering to ceasefire also is not working.

An Indian shell killing some Paki generals while talking peace is more than enough.

Sadly those in power in India see only good with Pakistan and RSS-BJP- Hindus are running terror camps for them.

With Senior people in MMS Govt like MSA having conversations with Hafeez Sayed on Pak TV and endorsing Shinde's rubbish yesterday, one wonders which side these people are on.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22019 » 22 Jan 2013 15:16

Gurinder P wrote:The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

So??? What has MMS done to do the same to porkistan?
Gurinder P wrote:Mr. Singh has done a lot of good things for India, because if it wasn't for his economic policies, the Indian Military wouldn't be enjoying the gadgets it has today.

List a few good things as well as bad that he has done in last 9 years.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby peter » 22 Jan 2013 15:21

Gurinder P wrote:The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Sun Tzu

A PM has to be a diplomat first and declare war only when actions require it. Having a few Jawans murdered sad as it is, does not justify war. A PM does not need to have military background, that is what the Military Brass is for. As for your bigoted comment near the end; my grandfather too was born in modern day Pakistan, but in the 30s it was still India. Mr. Singh has done a lot of good things for India, because if it wasn't for his economic policies, the Indian Military wouldn't be enjoying the gadgets it has today. If you want a general to run the country, say goodbye to your democracy because Military Rule is nastier; just look at the history books.

You gotta be kidding. This Prime Minister could not sleep all night when a doctor from Bangalore was accused of being a terrorist. PM called the parents of this doctor multiple times and expressed his sympathies.

This same PM could not pick up the phone and condole the death of these brave soldiers who got mutilated.

This PM is honestly is suffering from minority persecution complex who just feels the pain of only minorities.

I say change this guy and heck we need a millitary general to lead the country.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby merlin » 22 Jan 2013 16:24

Sachin wrote:
Gurinder P wrote:Mr. Singh has done a lot of good things for India, because if it wasn't for his economic policies, the Indian Military wouldn't be enjoying the gadgets it has today.

:lol:. I dont think this argument would have many supporters out here. And this may be off topic for this thread.


Apparently he has never heard of a certain Mr. PVNR. MMS's economic policies indeed :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby merlin » 22 Jan 2013 16:25

rohitvats wrote:
peter wrote:<SNIP>How can BJP align with such deshdrohis as SGPC and SAD?


As I asked sometime back - need to ask BJP what Bharat in BJP stands for?


That would be a rhetorical question for which you cannot get an answer for they simply don't know the answer.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Jan 2013 16:38

merlin wrote:
rohitvats wrote:quote="peter"]<SNIP>How can BJP align with such deshdrohis as SGPC and SAD?/quote]

As I asked sometime back - need to ask BJP what Bharat in BJP stands for?


That would be a rhetorical question for which you cannot get an answer for they simply don't know the answer.


What about the State Govt, Why no action against the Gurudwara?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby RajD » 22 Jan 2013 18:28

@Varunkumar
Sir,
Shri. Man Mohan Singh, apart from being a renowned economist is a trained and an intelligent IAS officer foremost. In the truly British tradition this glorified babu cadre is trained basically to 'Rule' the masses, primarily to deny opportunity to others('This side of the table is always right'./ 'We are the govt' etc.). So, its naive to even think that he is a moron who can't fathom the situation. Besides, been borne in Pakistan and having to migrate after experiencing the holocaust of the partition first hand he knows perfectly well the could be consequences of his actions.
Looking at his carrier especially from 2004 be it his utterances or the lack of it, and his conduct says it all. He seems as if is content enjoying the privileges and at the same time playing 'Dhritarashtra' to somebody else' agenda be it corruption, governance, terrorism, or national security.
@Gurinder P.
Sir,
As Merlin and Aditya_V has said above you are forgetting Shri. PVNR like the CON'men who faithfully trivialize his achievements as PM like opening the economy a little in true sense simply because he kept the first family at bay for 5 long yrs with the classic carrot and stick( read Bofors, alive and kicking at that time ) play, and allowed Babri to go down.
As I've said above IAS cadre would never ever take any decision, forget about a revolutionary one. It is not their cup of tea. They won't enable the masses to progress so as to maintain their control over the system.
So, when due to financial profligacy during 40 odd yrs of Con' rule bankruptcy became an imminent reality they had to open up the economy and please bear in mind that contrary to the popular belief, it was the mandate given by Shri. PVNR to MMS.
Also, there is an important subtext to the story which is rarely acknowledged.
Actually, it was the bold decision taken by the rag tag socialist govt. led by Shri. Chandra Shekhar with Shri. Yashvant Sinha at the helm of the Finance Ministry to morguage 2 tons of gold in Bank of England so as to avoid bankruptcy and save the nation from going into financial oblivion. The shrewd PVNR realised the inevitable and mandated MMS to build upon it.
And yes, I would request you to list even a few good decisions taken by MMS as the PM of India from 2004 onwards. On the contrary, he has allowed billions of dollars of surplus reserve generated in the last decade to be frittered away to the whims and fancies of the curse named as 'NAC' of which his political master is the chairman. On the international scene, the latest being his commitment of $10billion to IMF's 'Europe' fund caring for their profligacy of finances built up on the fortunes looted basically from India and Africa not so long ago in the history when our own billions are still suffering in abject poverty , unable to make the two ends meet and reeling under unrelenting price rise. On the international diplomatic front, less said the better. And yes, what are the bad ones according to you?
Regards.
Rajendra
Mods- I Have given the answer in the flow of discussion. Please shift to appropriate thread if necessay.
Last edited by RajD on 22 Jan 2013 19:23, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 22 Jan 2013 18:58

Gurinder P wrote:Mr. Singh has done a lot of good things for India, because if it wasn't for his economic policies, the Indian Military wouldn't be enjoying the gadgets it has today.


True but in the past 9 yrs. he has worked very hard to bury his own legacy as well, hence now no logical man looks at MMS with pride as once they used too.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 22 Jan 2013 19:51

varunkumar wrote:Better still, he should be kicked back into Pakistan from where he came.


I can understand that you may be piss@d with MMS (even I am)... But your statement is insulting to a lot of Indians including me since my grandparents also came from that part of "India"

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 22 Jan 2013 20:48

Ajay Sharma wrote:I can understand that you may be piss@d with MMS (even I am)... But your statement is insulting to a lot of Indians including me since my grandparents also came from that part of "India"


With all due respect there is no need to feel insulted since "that part of India" is a wasteland now, come into terms with reality.

Actually this very "attachment" that a big section of Indians feel is a major reason of India's dhimmi attitude w.r.t. pakistan, I had always thought that once some generations cease to exist or become powerless, India will deal with Pakistan with the way it deserves but alas the "attachment" has transcended generations it seems.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 22 Jan 2013 21:20

^^
Without going OT, I have no love for Pakistan or Pakistanis, nor supposed Punjabiyat... If there was Punjabiyat, there wouldn't be a Pakistan.

What I didn't like was the statement "kicked back into Pakistan from where he came" since it means that he considers all who came during Partition as Pakistanis... Thats what is insulting....

U remove "us" from there, and u get a wasteland called Pakistan 8) :D

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 22 Jan 2013 21:36

Ajay Sharma wrote:^^
Without going OT, I have no love for Pakistan or Pakistanis, nor supposed Punjabiyat... If there was Punjabiyat, there wouldn't be a Pakistan.


By saying "attachment" I am not saying that you or anyone having some kind of family background there of having any kind of love for Pakistan but there is a lingering hope deep down inside of such people that maybe just maybe someday things will turn O.K. with pakistan. This lingering hope is mostly subconscious in most Indians having a background there so while we see Indians talking tough against Pakistan but we fail miserably to back it with action on ground. These very Indians are right now in corridors of power supported by junta suffering from Stockholm syndrome so unless and until these Indians with "attachments" aren't removed from the corridors of power and the junta doesn't get out of it's stockholm syndrome all we would be able to do is bang our chest in anger at times or go at war when no other option exists. This "attachment" among Indians stops us from having an active defence against Pakistanis. This is what I have drawn conclusions from based on my observations, no expert you can choose to disagree.

Ajay Sharma wrote:What I didn't like was the statement "kicked back into Pakistan from where he came" since it means that he considers all who came during Partition as Pakistanis... Thats what is insulting....


His statement was

Better still, he should be kicked back into Pakistan from where he came.


His anger was solely against MMS as an individual and not against any particular community. Read his statement again with a calm mind you will get him.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 22 Jan 2013 22:09

^^
Most remember(ed) the memories, their "virsa", and would want to go and see one last time their birthplace before they died... Interestingly, there was never any love for the people (present day Pakis) left since the pain of partition & tales of neighbors turning on neighbors were way too common & horrifying.

Its a complex emotion and it needs to be experienced & not observed. There was no love lost and most wouldnt mind if Pakistan turned to ashes. Can't explain this further since words (or my vocabulary) aren't adequate to articulate this

Ending here (since I started this OT) :)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby raj-ji » 22 Jan 2013 22:37

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Sun Tzu

A PM has to be a diplomat first and declare war only when actions require it. Having a few Jawans murdered sad as it is, does not justify war. A PM does not need to have military background, that is what the Military Brass is for. As for your bigoted comment near the end; my grandfather too was born in modern day Pakistan, but in the 30s it was still India. Mr. Singh has done a lot of good things for India, because if it wasn't for his economic policies, the Indian Military wouldn't be enjoying the gadgets it has today. If you want a general to run the country, say goodbye to your democracy because Military Rule is nastier; just look at the history books."

Excellent and intelligent points.

All those who want a general to run the country can go to porkistan, that's what they have. How is their country doing by the way? How's their economy doing?

You may not like the style and lack of charisma of MMS, but give the man his due. I'm sure people's memory are not so short, picture what it was like in India even 20 years ago and compare that to now. Money and the economy has a great deal to do with the rapid changes in India. So give the man some credit. No one has managed to leave politics in India unscathed, it's the system.

As for the angry posts about the porkis, India has already beat them. The entire world is fed up with them, especially after the OBL raid and their reaction after. The next time they start trouble, they will get a trashing by us and even the pandas will keep their mouths shut. They are insignificant, and are growing desperate. The recent behavior is more alarming for them than it should be for us. If they have to resort to these pathetic tactics, they are really loosing it.

As our general said, the next time the porkis start trouble, there will be an aggressive and measured response. Good enough.

The porkis have more to gain by making this bigger than it is. They have nothing else. They have no rights, no freedom, they are bankrupt. And have to ask for handouts. And now even the US won't give them military handouts, they have to settle for Panda handouts. All the porki military can do is give everyone distractions. Let us not let them change the topic of their failed state.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 22 Jan 2013 22:48

raj-ji wrote:You may not like the style and lack of charisma of MMS, but give the man his due.


True that, and to be fair, being booed down the length of Rajpath just starts what is due to him, for his acts of commissions and omissions.

And I am being polite here and deliberately understating.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Surya » 22 Jan 2013 23:42

yes give the man his due for reducing the PMs position to that of a peon to 7 RCR

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vasu raya » 22 Jan 2013 23:44

The recent article on upping surveillance along the LoC talks about the following options,

a) SAR sensors which is a costly option, however given the context of beheadings, GoI/MoD can be pressurized by IA to fund this which is also in the interest of the piss process
b) UAVs

Option (a) is favorable since LoC is a long term problem while Option (b) might trigger the American itch to balance South Asia by providing armed drones to the begging Pakis

Option (b) should be used on Maoists in the Chattisgarh forests, since lack of situational awareness might present with all sorts of goof ups as seen in the recent incident of an IAF chopper being hit. The Maoists are setting a precedent and if we do not want to employ gunships, the least we could do is have good surveillance before things are allowed to rot

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 22 Jan 2013 23:46

why dont we just increase the patroling frequency?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22019 » 23 Jan 2013 00:12

raj-ji wrote:Excellent and intelligent points.


Thanks to enlighten us, please also let us know which of those excellent and intelligent points has been practiced by MMS and his government.
What steps our DIPLOMAT PM has taken to subdue porkistan?
What gadgets had been provided to our army by mms to keep us in advantageous position for conventional warfare? Small weapons? Bulletproof jackets? infra red binoculars...? Asking for howitzers would be too much.

raj-ji wrote:You may not like the style and lack of charisma of MMS, but give the man his due. I'm sure people's memory are not so short, picture what it was like in India even 20 years ago and compare that to now. Money and the economy has a great deal to do with the rapid changes in India. So give the man some credit. No one has managed to leave politics in India unscathed, it's the system.


Ok, lets give the whole credit of liberalisation to mms. So does it absolves this person of his catastrophic 9 years. Why is this so that the same person performs very good under PVNR and same person messes every front when under sonia&rahul. An economist is our PM and he has let the economy to slip into complete mess.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2013 00:24

Lalmohan wrote:why dont we just increase the patroling frequency?



Get more beheading opportunities for the TSPA pigs?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Gurinder P » 23 Jan 2013 02:16

SiddharthS wrote:
Thanks to enlighten us, please also let us know which of those excellent and intelligent points has been practiced by MMS and his government.
What steps our DIPLOMAT PM has taken to subdue porkistan?
What gadgets had been provided to our army by mms to keep us in advantageous position for conventional warfare? Small weapons? Bulletproof jackets? infra red binoculars...? Asking for howitzers would be too much.

Ok, lets give the whole credit of liberalisation to mms. So does it absolves this person of his catastrophic 9 years. Why is this so that the same person performs very good under PVNR and same person messes every front when under sonia&rahul. An economist is our PM and he has let the economy to slip into complete mess.

Err, the global economy has been a mess since 2008, due to the banking clans fubars in the West.

From here in Canada, our Conservative Right Wing neo Christian PM wants to do trade with India because he knows India is a growing Powerhouse. The sun is setting for the American Empire and it is rising at the East. The economies are recovering and the GOI for the past decade has been on a campaign to improve India's infrastructure. How can India become strong with continuous rolling blackouts? How can India become strong with gridlocks and lack luster trunk routes between cities? The GOI has been trying to fix those short comings, and the Nuclear Deal with America and Canada will provide India with great expansion with electricity for starters.

As for the military and defense, how can you say India is at a disadvantage against a third world country like pakistan? When the tiger is ready to be unleashed against the dragon. India has the Sukhoi's to decimate the paki 16's, India has cutting edge AWACS that look inside Pakistan while never crossing the border, India has the Arjun to take on the Al Khalid and the other tin canned armour that pakistan employs. The MLRS batteries will strike Pakistani with great vengeance, that God itself will take notice. And finally, the Indian Navy, the pride of the Indian Ocean, can by itself bring Pakistan to its knees by choking the neck of Pakistans lifeline (Karachi). Procurement processes take time now, because of the massive corruptions that took place in the 80's. This is to ensure that the forces get the best possible equipment for the best price, and that the India Economy can grow a bit by having production on Indian soil.

I am a supporter of MMS and I also take the non supporters opinions as well. I don't take so well bigoted comments, like the guy that said that MMS should go back to Pakistan. I totally agree with MMS not being a charismatic leader that is needed when crisis happens. If MMS is not the PM India wants, go to the polls and vote him out, heck call a referendum.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SBajwa » 23 Jan 2013 02:32

by GurinderP
The sun is setting for the American Empire and it is rising at the East.


It does not look like that at all!! The last I checked the whole world economy along with military and future endeavors/innovations were all coming out of U.S.A. China is still at least 50+ years in future if people are guaranteed more freedom. Only thing holding back India are indians themselves by voting congress time and again.

U.S.A is actually rising ever since second world war and will continue to arise in near future. Though White folks in U.S.A will be replaced by patriots of India/China/Europe/Africa ethnic background. It is all a propaganda that America is going down! U.S.A has 330 million very well educated (more than other countries around the world) population that has largest fertile land mass, huge reservoir of water, huge reservoir of natural resources. It is going up!! On the contrary Canada, Australia and UKland will go down if they do not toe the line of U.S.A.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Gurinder P » 23 Jan 2013 02:40

SBajwa wrote:
by GurinderP
The sun is setting for the American Empire and it is rising at the East.


It does not look like that at all!! The last I checked the whole world economy along with military and future endeavors/innovations were all coming out of U.S.A. China is still at least 50+ years in future if people are guaranteed more freedom. Only thing holding back India are indians themselves by voting congress time and again.

U.S.A is actually rising ever since second world war and will continue to arise in near future. Though White folks in U.S.A will be replaced by patriots of India/China/Europe/Africa ethnic background. It is all a propaganda that America is going down! U.S.A has 330 million very well educated (more than other countries around the world) population that has largest fertile land mass, huge reservoir of water, huge reservoir of natural resources. It is going up!! On the contrary Canada, Australia and UKland will go down if they do not toe the line of U.S.A.


You have a point, but I can counter some of your other points. Let's not go OT, but if you want to continue this conversation, contact me at gpurewal11 at my dot bcit dot ca.
Regards

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Mihir » 23 Jan 2013 05:12

Surya wrote:well what a surprise!!! This is why we have to crackdown on neo khalistanis - you give an inch they take a few yards

Now a Gurdwara refuses prayers for Lt Gen Ranjit Singh Dayal

http://in.news.yahoo.com/video/gurdwara ... 02690.html

Apparently not

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Didn- ... a/1062819/

“Even if we would have refused anybody, this must have been done, as we receive many requests for bookings. The family has raised an unnecessary controversy. People have no right to defame a religious institution,” he said.

Last year, prayers were held for the late Lt Gen. A langar was also organised in which 500-600 people took part. In case the family approaches us again, we will allow the prayers,” he added.

SBajwa
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SBajwa » 23 Jan 2013 07:56

It would not surprise me if somebody from the esteemed Major Shri R.S. Dayal's family wanted a Congress Ticket in forthcoming elections and thus all this!!!

Congress will go lower than the lowest to keep its nefarious hands in power!!!

member_20067
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_20067 » 23 Jan 2013 11:27

WTF?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/22 ... -fighting/

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... k-18282146

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 62251.html

Indian police warn Kashmiris to prepare for nuclear war

Pity the people of Kashmir. Days after a series of cross-border shootings left both Indian and Pakistani soldiers dead, police on the Indian side of the Line of Control have warned residents to prepare for nuclear war.

In an advert placed in an English language newspaper, police warned people in Srinagar to build underground bunkers equipped with toilets, collect two weeks’ worth of of food and water and ensure they have a supply of candles, torches and a radio.

“If the blast wave does not arrive within five seconds of the flash, you were far enough from the ground zero,” says the notice, headed Protection against Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Weapons, that appeared in the Greater Kashmir newspaper.

According to the AFP, local officials said the warning was part of a routine civil defence preparedness that are carried out throughout the year. But several local people said they were concerned that the advertisement was unnecessarily creating tension.

“This is fuelling an atmosphere of fear. Educating people is fine but not this brazen way,” Srinagar resident Fayaz Ahmed told the Associated Press.

The warning comes after the Indian and Pakistani armies agreed to halt cross-border firing that had threatened to unravel a fragile peace process in place along the so-called Line of Control since 2003.

The notice describes what might happen in the circumstances of a nuclear exchange and warns people to be ready for an initial shock wave. It advises people that they should then wait for the winds to die down and the debris to stop falling.

“Blast wind will generally end in one or two minutes after burst and burns, cuts and bruises are no different than conventional injuries,” it adds. “The dazzle is temporary and vision should return in few seconds.”

The advice also warned drivers that in the event of a nuclear strike they should dive out of their cars and towards the blast, lest the vehicle be thrown into the air and fall on them.

“Expect some initial disorientation as the blast wave may blow down and carry away many prominent and familiar features,” it says.

The advertisement also warned survivors to keep anyone exposed to the blast out of their shelters.

Police confirmed they issued the notice but said it “should not be connected with anything else”. Mubarak Ganai, deputy inspector general of civil defence in Kashmir police, added that the notice was part of “year-round” preparations.

Nuclear-armed India and Pakistan have fought four conflicts since partition in 1947. Two of them have been over Kashmir, which both countries claim as their own.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Jaybhatt » 23 Jan 2013 12:17

AJAI SHUKLA PEDDLES MORE PIFFLE
______________________________

This soprano-voiced pansy has done it again. This is what he wrote, among other garbage, in his column in THE BUSINESS STANDARD yesterday :

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... an/499548/

While discussing the role of the Paki press, Shukla has this to say :

"Oblivious to Indian jingoism,the Pakistani press covered, minute-by-minute, the Anna Hazare-style reality show that was Canada-based cleric Tahir ul-Qadri’s challenge to that country's political establishment. "

So, the low-life thinks of the outrage in India following the decapitation of one of our soldiers as "jingoism". This is not distorting his statement but catching him in the act - i.e. in his own words.

Our 4th Estate wallahs can stoop to any depths, as we know, but Shukla is the only ex-fauji press commentator who has such a disgusting track-record. The others, including Maroof Raza, Uday Bhaskar etc. are all officers and gentlemen.

It is only Shukla who cannot rise above his true character.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 23 Jan 2013 12:20

Okay this from NDTV, but this time line appears to be most honest and accurate based on what even we on BRF had pieced together from the FUD.

Read it all, posting in full.

Blog: The LoC incident - The back story

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/blog- ... ory-320851

The recent incidents on the Line of Control between Indian and Pakistani army troops has predictably generated a lot of heat and has taken up oodles of air and print space in the media on both sides of the border.

It is a familiar pattern. An incident takes place, it gets reported. The other side reacts. There is a counter-reaction. Allegations are made. Counter-allegations are flung. TV news studios get busy with retired diplomats and generals on either side getting their 15 seconds of fame. So what's new?

As someone who was involved from day one in not only reporting the incident but also monitoring the subsequent developments, it is important for me to recall the facts, the chain of events and the reaction of all stake-holders (a term I recently came across at a South Asia 2020 Conference) during the entire episode lest fiction as conceived by different players gets accepted as the absolute truth.

To begin at the beginning.

Sunday January 6, 9.39 am:

My colleague Zaffar Iqbal sends an email to me and the NDTV Newsdesk which reads: "Ceasefire violation in Uri sector of Kashmir. Pakistan army resorted to unprovoked firing on Indian posts near village Churunda close to LoC. Pakistan fired mortar shells and illumination shots. Many shells landed close to the village. Panic has gripped the villagers who fear casualties and damage to property. Firing started at 3.30 am and possibly to help infiltration. Alert troops retaliated and forced Pakistani troops to stop firing."

The newsdesk asks me for more details which are difficult to come by in the initial hours. But Army's Public Information setup in Delhi confirms Zaffar's inputs around 11.30.

In the overall news rundown, the incident finds a routine mention.

Monday January 7:

Zaffar sends photographs of damage to villagers' houses in Churunda village because of the cross-border firing.

Tuesday January 8, 1.15 pm or thereabouts:

On my Facebook page and twitter timeline, queries start appearing: Have you heard of beheading of one of the two soldiers killed?

By 2 pm I am bombarded by faujis, fauji wives and others with information that one soldier is indeed beheaded. They were incredulous why I and other mainstream media guys were fighting shy of mentioning the barbaric act.

3 pm: Northern Command PRO, Lt. Col Rajesh Kalia continues to maintain that 2 soldiers have been killed and he has no more information at that point.

4 pm: Zaffar calls up and sends a mail saying he is pretty sure of the beheading but no one in the Army was reachable.

I again call up the usual contacts in Northern Command, the Army HQ and whoever I can reach in the fauj but no confirmation yet.

I and Zaffar in any case go on air saying two soldiers have indeed been killed after a suspected cross-border raid, their weapons snatched.

6.30 pm:

Finally, a senior officer at the Army HQ reluctantly admits that one body is mutilated without confirming if it was beheaded. So we stick to 'mutilation,' in absence of official admission.

6.30 to 8 pm:

Classic reporter's dilemma continues to dog us: Despite being aware of what had happened, lack of official confirmation means I am only circling around the fact by saying we have heard of this but no confirmation officially!

8.05 pm: A senior officer in Northern Command finally confirms beheading. That's the time we go on air confirming beheading as fact!

Wednesday, January 9:

The Hindu's Praveen Swami reports of a grandmother's crossing the LoC and an aggressive commander on the LoC having sparked off the latest confrontation.

8 am: I call up the commander in question and ask him, half in jest: "So you have riled the Pakistanis so much." He laughs and says: "I wish I had that kind of power. In any case, I was on leave till yesterday (8th January)." We exchange further notes.

Zaffar in the meantime has reached Rajouri and is outside the Military Hospital there. The autopsy of the two killed soldiers is being carried out there.

At 11.45 am, Brigadier JK Tiwari, the No. 2 man in the 25 Infantry Division (which guards the LoC at Mendhar and Poonch among other places) goes on record, on camera to confirm the beheading.

1.58 pm: Zaffar says bodies flown out to Delhi.

2.20 pm: We are told in the Defence Ministry the bodies are going to Agra since easier to send one to Mathura (Hemraj's).

5 pm: Defence Ministry issues clarification on a couple of stories, including The Hindu's.

Prime Time: Most TV Channels discuss the incident. Some project this as an act of war.

Thursday, January 10:

5 pm: Zaffar says from Poonch cross-LoC trade halted. But trade is normal at Uri!

7.30 pm: Zaffar reprts fresh firing in Poonch, Mendhar etc.

Post-8.30 pm: Lance Naik Hemraj's cremation takes place.

Friday, January 11:

Occasional exchange of firing from both sides. Zaffar hangs on around the Poonch area. India asks for a flag meeting. Pakistan hasn't responded.

Saturday, 12 January:

Air Chief, ACM, NAK 'Charlie" Browne is visiting the NCC Cadets' camp in New Delhi. Reporters confront him there. As Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee, he is forceful and candid, without sounding like a war monger.

"We have a Line of Control, we have a ceasefire agreement, we have certain structures and mechanisms which are sacrosanct and any violation of these with impunity especially what has been happening in the last few months is totally unacceptable.

"We are monitoring the situation carefully because if these things continue to be the way they are and these violations continue to take place, then perhaps we may have to look at some other options for compliance," he says.

7 pm: Zaffar says an infiltration attempt foiled at Mendhar.

The Air Chief's statement sets off another round of heated and in many cases hysterical discussions on TV programmes.

Sunday, 13 January:

Relatively quiet day.

Monday, January 14:

Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh in the course of his annual Press Conference gives out the details and warns Pakistan. Says I expect my commanders on LoC to be aggressive and offensive.

He also admits that in July 2011 a similar incident of beheading of 2 soldiers from 20 Kumaon Battalion had taken place but denies Army had tried to suppress it.

(Technically Gen Bikram Singh was right since our own reporter in Uttarakhand, Dinesh Mansera had reported about the matter but only in an oblique manner since apparently at that time the family did not want this to come out. Whether the Army prevailed over the family not to speak about it or they did not want to let this fact come out because of some other reason is not yet clear).

At that time, some of us who came to know of the incident almost 10 days after it had happened could not pursue it since neither the Army nor the family would confirm it.

Later, there were unconfirmed and unsubstantiated reports about the Pakistani government having lodged a protest against beheading of three of their soldiers. But in my limited capacity of research, I have not come across any official report about this in 2011 in either Indian or Pakistani media.

The gossip is however persistent and continues to this day.


Last Saturday (19th January, 2013) however wife of one of the Kumaoni soldiers has told my colleague Dinesh Mansera: "hemraj ke sath jo hua wo hamare sath bhi hua per hamen sarkar ne sammaan nahi diya(what happened with Hemraj also happened with us)"

At the moment it is not clear how this seemingly new development is being tackled by the Army.

But to get back to the recent LoC incident.

The Army Chief's tough language was expected after the Air Chief had set the ball rolling.

The MEA in the meantime was trying to downplay the incident through "safe" and conciliatory statements.

Tuesday, 15 January:

Forenoon: Northern Army Commander Lt. Gen KT Parnaik holds his traditional press conference at Akhnoor after taking salute at the Army Day parade and reiterates the tough message that India reserved the right to retaliate at the place and time of its own choosing.

Later in the evening, he gives a lengthy interview to Times Now's Arnab Goswami and recounts in some details the entire incident.

Post-lunch: Annual Reception at Army House, 3 pm

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his senior Cabinet colleagues arrive 10 minutes before President Pranab Mukherjee is to arrive.

My colleague Barkha Dutt is among a handful of journalists and Editors at the reception.

Seeing the Prime Minister, she walks towards him and tosses a question: How do you read the situation at the LoC?

After a pause, he replies: "It can't be business as usual."

Barkha rushes out of the Army House, starts reporting. Other reporters too gherao the PM and get the same response.


External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid holds a hurriedly convened press conference a couple of hours later and says: "It should not be felt that the brazen denial and a lack of proper response from the government of Pakistan to our repeated demarches on this incident will be ignored and that bilateral relations could be unaffected or that there will be 'business as usual'.

Indian political leadership has finally in sync with the military's stand!

That night fresh exchange of firing happens, one Pakistani soldier is apparently killed.

Wednesday, January 16:

10 am: Pakistan Army Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) calls up his Indian counterpart and protests over the killing but more importantly the Pakistani officer says orders have been passed to the troops on their side of the LoC to exercise restraint and observe the ceasefire strictly. Both reached an understanding that situation should not be allowed to escalate!

So ended the latest flashpoint between India and Pakistan, at least temporarily.

Over the weekend, many write up have appeared questioning how and why the story acquired the salience it did.

My simple take is: In today's world of easy communications, nothing remains hidden.

There are no conspiracies in the way the story unfolded. Even from two years ago, situation has changed.

Soldiers possess mobile phones. Officers and their wives are on twitter timelines and Facebook pages. They talk, they gossip and they bristle in anger at the "soft" line taken by sections of the government. Details of incidents get out in flash, as they did on 6th and 8th January. No one is able to control the information flow. Mainstream Media waits for official confirmation; the social media has no such compulsion. So the mainstream media gets abused and reviled. It comes under pressure.


The responses are conditioned by this pressure.

So decisions oscillate between one extreme and the other.

It is this challenge that governments and media outlets will have to confront now.


Social media Zindabad. Internet amar rahe, people to people contact in the real sense of the word.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 23 Jan 2013 19:52

ramana wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:why dont we just increase the patroling frequency?



Get more beheading opportunities for the TSPA pigs?


ramana, it is not possible to simply go ahead and repeat what happened recently when ever one likes.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pentaiah » 23 Jan 2013 20:11

bravo Gurinder saar ji

err the only problem I see is MMS is not elected PM he is selected PM.
He never won election nor can can he win.

He is at the pleasure of congres president Sonia G ji

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SaiK » 23 Jan 2013 21:52

if systems and processes are in place, then we don't need to wait for approval on skirmishes. SOP should have threshold specifiers.. if MMS has not acted because he either expected IA to thrash pakis even before they think or he had SOP changed to route everything through gullibility setup.

a line means, it has to be straight.


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