Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 28 Jan 2013 13:51

sum wrote:
In the murkier world of "Black" SF there are lots of Special Group/SFF, Special Group/1 Para, "*Battalion/SFF" folks floating around including some Intelligence Guys on attachment to SF units.

Intelligence guys serving in SF as in MI folks or Kaccha folk?


Intelligence Corps guys. Few of them are mentioned in RD Gallantry Awards list of previous years.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 28 Jan 2013 14:21

Kapil wrote:There was an experiment a few years back where SF officers were sent on attachment to their parent regiment Bns in order to transfer skills and learning.It's a win win for all.
Maybe it's still on? And maybe a capsule session went 'live' here


As far as I know, they would spend significant time in the parent Bn, and only revert to Para for regular training. The idea was to have a embedded SF unit in each regiment and not just a distinct unit.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby James B » 28 Jan 2013 14:59

My Army Life (1977 to 2006) By Gopal Karunakaran

PL DO READ THIS FULLY .....

Here is an article written from the heart of a soldier. I wish that each of
our citizens and more so men in positions of power - whether politicians,
bureaucrats , mediamughals and other opinion leaders ( hell of a phrase ! )
get to read this. And, more importantly, act proactively for the sake of
our nation.

> I Love the Indian Army – but I must leave Now!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Kapil » 28 Jan 2013 15:22

Call me old fashioned but I am uncomfortable with the fact we let our SF strut around,show badges,faces,etc I mean yes it is a jingo morale booster but somebody really ought to be careful in this social media world.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 28 Jan 2013 17:09

Sanku wrote:As far as I know, they would spend significant time in the parent Bn, and only revert to Para for regular training. The idea was to have a embedded SF unit in each regiment and not just a distinct unit.


An Infantry Officer (and others) can be Para qualified but not serve in the Parachute Regiment.

No such thing for SF - once you've opted for SF, you belong to SF. Same is the case with Parachute Regiment - which after all, is like other Infantry Regiments of the IA.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chaanakya » 28 Jan 2013 19:21

Gen Parnaik is now at the receiving end of the system for having opened his mouth too soon in case of Beheading Issue which was sought to be downplayed by Kongi goons. See Aroor going full blast on Headlines Today.

Moral of the Story. If you are out of favour keep quite or get smite.

What a shame for Congi goons.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sid » 28 Jan 2013 21:20

Kapil wrote:Call me old fashioned but I am uncomfortable with the fact we let our SF strut around,show badges,faces,etc I mean yes it is a jingo morale booster but somebody really ought to be careful in this social media world.


Well that is true, but as per rules Army do not send back gallantry award winner to war as they may become war trophies. I am not sure if field postings/counter insurgency count here.

There was only one exception to this rule, I don't remember but there was one Sikh soldier who went back. I think it was during British empire days when IA was sent to fight in Turkey.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 28 Jan 2013 22:38

^^
Not sure if its completely accurate. Perhaps the rule may be for the PVC/AC awardees. I know of cases where Vrc/MVC awardees have gone into battle...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby suryag » 28 Jan 2013 22:47

yes there are MVC bar soldiers where the MVC was won across two battles

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby atreya » 28 Jan 2013 22:48

Yeah Sid, how come soldiers are awarded a 'Bar' to their gallantry awards if they are not sent back into action? Are you talking about any specific awards like PVC and AC?

S=PS: Suryag beat me to it!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Surya » 29 Jan 2013 01:56

Tsk Tsk

you are out of internet access for 24 hrs and look what happens :evil:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Kapil » 29 Jan 2013 04:47

They can certainly take part in more than one war.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jahaju » 29 Jan 2013 14:23

Well that is true, but as per rules Army do not send back gallantry award winner to war as they may become war trophies.


wiki link

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby d_berwal » 29 Jan 2013 17:43

rohitvats wrote:
There are two routes for officers to get in Para SF - one is from Academy and other is when they are already in service. In first case, the officer is given a parent regiment to go to should he not pass the SF Probation...in second case, they already have a parent regiment. However, once an officer has qualified as Para SF, he joins one of the SF Battalions and DOES NOT revert to his parent regiment. This system is different from what some other countries follow - like SAS of British or even SSG of PA. There, the officers revert back to their parent regiment after serving in their SF for a predefined period.

Since we do not have this revert system (AFAIK), hence, the confusion. However, this is not the only time I've seen such a situation - there is another video on NDTV of JLW in Belgaum which has a Colonel with Para SF Balidan badge but wearing a cap sporting the insignia of J&K Rifles.


well you are wrong in the second part, we have the Revert system. Even a Armour Corps gay can opt for SF if vacancy is there. Typically SF tenure is 2-3 yrs. In few rare cases they leave their parent regiment and become SF if they are extraordinary. There are enough people from Engineers with Balida even Armoued Corps guys with Balidan.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pmund » 29 Jan 2013 18:52

Paramvir Chakra awardees, at least, are not sent back into combat. I heard this from the legends themselves -- Bana Singh and Yogendra Singh Yadav. It was an unforgettable experience to meet the three living PVCs under one roof. I asked them if they saw any action after getting their medals, and they said that they are not rostered for combat.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jan 2013 21:56

d_berwal wrote:<SNIP>
well you are wrong in the second part, we have the Revert system. Even a Armour Corps guy can opt for SF if vacancy is there. Typically SF tenure is 2-3 yrs. In few rare cases they leave their parent regiment and become SF if they are extraordinary. There are enough people from Engineers with Balida even Armoued Corps guys with Balidan.


I have never come across this concept. And I really doubt this. People can come back for extraneous reason - but the rotation system in SF is surely not there.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Surya » 29 Jan 2013 22:26

One does not spend gazillion rupees and time to get a SF guy and then send him back to work witha Shukla :)

imagine 6 months of probation - just to call himself a basic SF. then months of advanced training, ops etc - and then send him back to parent unit??

maybe in the new era of 1 month probation pioneered by a certain genius Col of the para regmt or some medical invalidation

but none of the original and true SF are going to have time for this crap

The recent converts are just SF in name

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby d_berwal » 29 Jan 2013 22:53

rohitvats wrote:
d_berwal wrote:<SNIP>
well you are wrong in the second part, we have the Revert system. Even a Armour Corps guy can opt for SF if vacancy is there. Typically SF tenure is 2-3 yrs. In few rare cases they leave their parent regiment and become SF if they are extraordinary. There are enough people from Engineers with Balida even Armoued Corps guys with Balidan.


I have never come across this concept. And I really doubt this. People can come back for extraneous reason - but the rotation system in SF is surely not there.


you can doubt or believe what you want non of us are the authority here, some are Armchair General and Some share what they have seen

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby d_berwal » 29 Jan 2013 22:54

Surya wrote:One does not spend gazillion rupees and time to get a SF guy and then send him back to work witha Shukla :)

imagine 6 months of probation - just to call himself a basic SF. then months of advanced training, ops etc - and then send him back to parent unit??

maybe in the new era of 1 month probation pioneered by a certain genius Col of the para regmt or some medical invalidation

but none of the original and true SF are going to have time for this crap

The recent converts are just SF in name


do you even know what happens to ones body (medically) after 3 years in SF ? get real!!!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 29 Jan 2013 23:01

d_berwal wrote:<SNIP>do you even know what happens to ones body (medically) after 3 years in SF ? get real!!!


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Surya » 29 Jan 2013 23:39

do you even know what happens to ones body (medically) after 3 years in SF ? get real!!!


I am always willing to learn - so please educate me - what happens to one's body after 3 years in SF???

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby aditp » 29 Jan 2013 23:40

d_berwal wrote:...

do you even know what happens to ones body (medically) after 3 years in SF ? get real!!!


It turns amazingly fit :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby anjan » 30 Jan 2013 02:07

Surya wrote:One does not spend gazillion rupees and time to get a SF guy and then send him back to work witha Shukla :)

imagine 6 months of probation - just to call himself a basic SF. then months of advanced training, ops etc - and then send him back to parent unit??

maybe in the new era of 1 month probation pioneered by a certain genius Col of the para regmt or some medical invalidation

but none of the original and true SF are going to have time for this crap

The recent converts are just SF in name

I have to say the BRF obsession with Special Forces borders is just plain weird. Any airdropped unit or infiltrated unit would survive 72 hours and then require linkup with an regular forces. You know maybe Armoured columns with men like Shukla. Otherwise it's finished.. chewed up by the regular infantry and armour of the enemy.

Special refers to the tasking they do. Not the men. The "regular" army trains as hard and as long.

Edit: For that matter I was confused by all the "ooh there was an incursion by indian forces into Pakistan. Must be SF...." kind of comments a few weeks back. I wonder what it is that people think the regular infantry does.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pentaiah » 30 Jan 2013 02:20

SF are by nature one way travel and expected to be self sufficient with planned extraction which never happens as planned

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Surya » 30 Jan 2013 02:21

I have to say the BRF obsession with Special Forces borders is just plain weird. Any airdropped unit or infiltrated unit would survive 72 hours and then require linkup with an regular forces. You know maybe Armoured columns with men like Shukla. Otherwise it's finished.. chewed up by the regular infantry and armour of the enemy.


yes and no

it does require a certain type of trained men (or as my IAF friends say - crazed buggers) to make that attempt to hold a bridge deep behind enemy lines.
or take a small bag of rice and some sugar and salt and then disappear into the NE jungles for weeks chasing down insurgents.


you are really going to see horrendous disasters with these 1 month probation converts - just watch

the long probation periods and weeding out of men have a certain purpose

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pentaiah » 30 Jan 2013 02:22

aditp wrote:do you even know what happens to ones body (medically) after 3 years in SF ? get real!!!


true to name it becomes Specially Forged

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby anjan » 30 Jan 2013 02:26

pentaiah wrote:SF are by nature one way travel and expected to be self sufficient with planned extraction which never happens as planned
It's not even like this description applies only to SF. Regular infantry batt. train for and are expected to be used for things like heliborne insertion.

Surya wrote:it does require a certain type of trained men (or as my IAF friends say - crazed buggers) to make that attempt to hold a bridge deep behind enemy lines.
Please see above. Regular battalions can and will be used for holding bridge X till linkup.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Surya » 30 Jan 2013 02:34

Surya wrote:
it does require a certain type of trained men (or as my IAF friends say - crazed buggers) to make that attempt to hold a bridge deep behind enemy lines.
Please see above. Regular battalions can and will be used for holding bridge X till linkup.


you are taking just one example of a task

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby anjan » 30 Jan 2013 02:46

Surya wrote:
Surya wrote:
it does require a certain type of trained men (or as my IAF friends say - crazed buggers) to make that attempt to hold a bridge deep behind enemy lines.
Please see above. Regular battalions can and will be used for holding bridge X till linkup.


you are taking just one example of a task
There are taskings for a regular unit that SF units can't fulfill. As a matter of fact if used like regular infantry they'd fare rather poorly compared to normal infantry. Why? Equipment for one. Training for another.

My point is the difference comes down to tasking and equipment. There was no call for wise cracking comment about men like Shukla. They're trained to do their own jobs.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Surya » 30 Jan 2013 02:49

There are taskings for a regular unit that SF units can't fulfill.


Did I say otherwise anywhere??

There was no call for wise cracking comment about men like Shukla.


hopefully there are not too many like him :)
we disagree on it - too bad

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby krisna » 30 Jan 2013 03:14



This fhucker
Praveen Swami
@praveenswami

I work for The Hindu in New Delhi. Sorry, but I don't respond to messages, queries or requests to debate issues on Twitter

New Delhi · http://www.thehindu.in


even in other areas also.
spit and run is their motto when their grandmas (lies) are exposed.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby anjan » 30 Jan 2013 04:02

Surya wrote:hopefully there are not too many like him :)
we disagree on it - too bad
Contextually in your original comments you were referring to the Armoured Corps as a whole. So what were you talking about? If you're saying tasking shouldn't be changed it's a bit like saying RR personnel shouldn't go elsewhere. Or after HAWS people shouldn't go to Jungle warfare school. There too the difference is tasking.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SagarAg » 30 Jan 2013 05:39

Army rejects calls to raise new units based on caste or religion
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Army-rejects-calls-to-raise-new-units-based-on-caste-or-religion/articleshow/18248941.cms

NEW DELHI: The Army has once again strongly rejected calls for raising new "single-class" units like the Gujarat, Kalinga, Dalit, Ahir, Paswan or Tribal regiments as well as attempts to tinker with its "time-tested" regimental system.

"The policy since Independence is not to raise any new regiment on the basis of a particular class, creed, community, religion or region but to have a force in which all Indians have representation. This is the well-defined position of both the defence ministry and Army," said a senior official.

Added a top general, "Politics should not be played with the apolitical armed forces. The Army is an inclusive, secular force, open to all. It's for that reason the force had even opposed the religious headcount proposed by the Sachar Committee in 2005-06."

Having just finished with the Republic Day celebrations as well as the Army Day on January 15, which marks the day when Field Marshal K M Cariappa became the first Indian chief of the force in 1949, the 1.13-million-strong Army is equally steadfast about resisting any changes in its regimental system.

But it's the existence of this system, with a preponderance of "single-class" regiments like the Sikh, Gorkha, Dogra, Garhwal, Jat and the like, which propels politicians and others to demand a Dalit Regiment, like LJP chief Ram Vilas Paswan often does, or a Gujarat Regiment, as proposed by L K Advani when he was the deputy prime minister.

Single-class or "pure" regiments were raised during the Raj based on the classification of certain communities as "martial races". After 1947, India, however, decided to continue with these caste or community-based units because "regimental history, ethos and loyalty" was considered to be the main driving force in combat effectiveness and operational performance.

"Soldiers from the same clan fight better from the same foxhole. These tradition-bound regiments have proved themselves in combat in all conflicts since 1947. They should not be dismantled," said a major-general.

This "battalion esprit de corps" was quite evident during the 1999 Kargil conflict. Quizzed why they had made those daredevil assaults against fortified positions held by Pakistani intruders, the common refrain among jawans was that the "paltan's izzat" :D (the battalion's honour) was at stake, more than loftier notions about fighting for the flag and the country.

While officers can be commissioned into any unit, the infantry's 23 regiments — with over 350 battalions under them — are basically of three types. Single-class units constitute around 60% of the whole. Even among them, the further sub-divisions are based on community or caste. The Army's seven Gorkha Rifles, for instance, recruit separately from the Gurung, Rai, Limbu, Magar and other communities, both from India and Nepal.

The aim after Independence has been to raise "All India-All Class" regiments, like the Brigade of Guards, where jawans are recruited from all over the country irrespective of class and percentage. "The endeavour is to progressively move towards such regiments," said a Brigadier.

In between these two are the "mixed" and "fixed" class units like the Grenadiers or the Mahar Regiment. The 4 Grenadiers, for instance, has two companies of Jats, one company of Muslims and one company of Dogras. Similarly, Rajputana Rifles has an equal mix between Rajputs and Jats, while the Rajput Regiment mainly has Rajputs and Gujars with a sprinkling of Muslims and Bengalis.

"Jawans, with similar language and eating habits, have kinship, brotherhood...they form a cohesive fighting force. Even in mixed class regiments like Grenadiers, individual companies - the basic fighting units — are `pure'," said a Colonel.

The other "fighting arms" like the armoured corps and artillery also have several instances of: "pure" units :-? :?: among them. Many artillery medium or field regiments, for instance, are "pure" ones recruiting only Gorkhas, Sikhs, Jats, Ahirs or Marathas into their respective folds. But "support" arms like ASC, EME, Ordnance, Signals and the like are resolutely "all-class" units.


What does pure unit mean and also do IA recruit men from Nepal ?
And who this Image Praveen Swami is?? :evil: :x
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/locked-in-un-files-15-years-of-bloodletting-at-loc/article4358199.ece?homepage=true

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Ankit Desai » 30 Jan 2013 06:34

SagarAg wrote:What does pure unit mean and also do IA recruit men from Nepal ?


Second part of your question first yes, IA recruit men from Nepal. I read some where that best among Nepalies or gurkhas go to England, second best to India and rest to Nepal Army as pay in England army is much higher compare to IA or Nepal Army.

Answer to first part of your question is in article. Let me quote few

Soldiers from the same clan fight better from the same foxhole....


The Army's seven Gorkha Rifles, for instance, recruit separately from the Gurung, Rai, Limbu, Magar and other communities,...


Jawans, with similar language and eating habits, have kinship, brotherhood...


So when
Even in mixed class regiments like Grenadiers, individual companies - the basic fighting units — are `pure',"
still individual companies are pure because each company have men coming from same region having similar language and eating habits though regiment level it is mix of pure battalion or pure companies.

To get more idea about "pure" refer comments section of Sikh Regiment.

-Ankit


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 30 Jan 2013 08:07

The reports claimed that the operation was led by a serving ISI subedar, Jabbar Khan, of a unit based in Tattapani in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Others in the team were 15 members of the Lashkar and the Jaish-e-Mohammad. The beheading was carried out by the Lashkar's Anwar Khan, for which he was rewarded Rs five lakh.

Incidentally, Anwar Khan was also involved in the beheading of an Indian Army captain in 1996 in the Krishna Ghati area.

If India had any $%^# and actually has the super-duper capability it claims to have to hunt down any TSP-ian ( if political clearance is given), this Anwar Khan and the other turds with him should be floating in the Neelum river within few weeks

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_19648 » 30 Jan 2013 09:28

Today, The Hindu has published an article as a headline on Page # 1 on how Pak has complained to the UN about Indian atrocities on their soldiers. As usual, the article was written by Praveen Swami. Its astonishing how such nutheads are let off when they write such baseless articles without any proof. I am still seething with anger reading that article. That guy should be tried for treason, he is a treacherous scum to say the least and is trying to destabilize India. Can we have a group here to file a complaint/litigation against him? Can we also have some efforts to unmask this scum? He should be forced to show proof for what he has written and if not, face action for his article.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_20067 » 30 Jan 2013 09:40

Ivanev wrote:Today, The Hindu has published an article as a headline on Page # 1 on how Pak has complained to the UN about Indian atrocities on their soldiers. As usual, the article was written by Praveen Swami. Its astonishing how such nutheads are let off when they write such baseless articles without any proof. I am still seething with anger reading that article. That guy should be tried for treason, he is a treacherous scum to say the least and is trying to destabilize India. Can we have a group here to file a complaint/litigation against him? Can we also have some efforts to unmask this scum? He should be forced to show proof for what he has written and if not, face action for his article.


funny thing is Pak govt. has actually denied him Visa during S M Krishna's visit in 2012....he was the only one out of entire press entourage

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_19648 » 30 Jan 2013 10:17

Prithwiraj wrote:funny thing is Pak govt. has actually denied him Visa during S M Krishna's visit in 2012....he was the only one out of entire press entourage


That might be a ploy to show that he doesn't have any association with the Pak Mil/ISI, exactly to fool people. This guy shows open allegiance to Pak and demeans the Indian efforts with his baseless/proof less banter. Can we gather some evidence against this guy to show who he really is?


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