Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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chetak
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 18 Oct 2013 09:34

RajitO wrote:
Ajay Sharma wrote:{quote="Pratyush"}^^^

Reading the different accounts of the IA's response to the attack. I am perplexed by the various accounts and reaction to it. By all accounts an army unit in its barracks, during peace time, is not equipped to fight on a moments notice. That too within its own barracks. For a simple reason, that its weapons are in stores. {/quote}

On the contrary, every unit is expected to have a Quick Reaction Team that are expected to be able to respond on a moment's notice. This is to face eventualities similar to Sambha... Now why didn't they respond is anyone's guess. Going by the way the Armd unit went about it shows that either there was a chain of command issue apart from being caught with their pants down.

As per reports, it took troops of other unit to finally sanitize the area. This by itself shows that the Armd unit was in disarray, especially after the CO and 2IC getting shot


Whoa! Slow down there...you might want to qualify your remarks that such SOP is applicable only to certain units. Unless your contention is that ASC, AMC, EME units all maintain a QRT.

In the case of 16 Cav being under a different Corps despite being in a high threat level area, is the explanation for not having a QRT--and explains many of the other questions about other units, time taken etc.

Incidentally, if there is a larger frustration with how jehadis are being handled then QRTs are no silver bullet because QRTs by definition arrive later on the scene (else it would be called a Preemptive Reaction Team).

The CI grid is based on a layered defence. Once the outer layers fail, there will be always be hell to pay for the target.

Again, these press reports are based on hearsay, none of these Delhi-based journalists will fight MoD to get access on the ground to do a forensic blow by blow account of how things happened.


Layered deference or no, if some one had precious MBTs in his charge, he had better be more worried about their safety. The border was already "live" for many weeks before this attack.

If there is trouble on the border then even military units down south routinely go into a higher state of alertness. Live ammo is issued to all sentries. This has been going on for years. No one tells them to do so. In larger bases, individual units also step up their own security.

Why were these guys sleeping??

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 18 Oct 2013 10:11

chetak wrote:
Layered deference or no, if some one had precious MBTs in his charge, he had better be more worried about their safety. The border was already "live" for many weeks before this attack.

If there is trouble on the border then even military units down south routinely go into a higher state of alertness. Live ammo is issued to all sentries. This has been going on for years. No one tells them to do so. In larger bases, individual units also step up their own security.

Why were these guys sleeping??


1. Did any of the precious MBTs get stolen or damaged?

2. To draw an analogy,in every successful assassination of a protected principal - from JFK to Indira Gandhi to Rabin, is your conclusion that the security was sleeping?

3. The border was "live", so what were the outer defences doing? Even after the police station attack, was this unit alerted?

4. "High State of alertness", "security stepped up" are precisely the kind of things that the general public wants to hear when such incidents occur. What has been the correlation between these statements and ability to neutralize a threat?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Raja Bose » 18 Oct 2013 10:14

Atri wrote:Wow.. never heard a Hindi Interview by FM Gen. Maneckshaw.. What a man.. What a clarity.. Check out his remarks on "Naalaayak" and "political" generals of 1962 who could not say "no" to JLN.. Gen. Thapar lacked Moral courage.. a slight tinge of tear in the eyes of this great man when speaking on 1962 debacle.


Sam Manekshaw was truly one of a kind - nobody even comes close to the greatness of this man.

Some of his witty quips from Wiki uncle:

On the military knowledge of politicians: "I wonder whether those of our political masters who have been put in charge of the defence of the country can distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, although a great many resemble the latter." :rotfl:


On being asked what would have happened had he opted for Pakistan at the time of the Partition in 1947, he quipped, "then I guess Pakistan would have won (the 1971 war)" :mrgreen:


On being placed in command of the retreating 4 Corps during the Sino-Indian War of 1962: "There will be no withdrawal without written orders and these orders shall never be issued."


This quote has been attributes to multiple sources so I am not sure if it originally came from him.
About the Gurkha: "If a man says he is not afraid of dying, he is either lying or is a Gurkha."


When a surgeon was going to give up on his bullet-riddled body, he asked Sam what had happened and got the reply, "I was kicked by a donkey." A joker at such a time, the surgeon reckoned, had a chance.


After helping a young Indian Army Officer with his luggage, the grateful officer asked Sam: "What do you do here?". Sam replied: "I everyday help officers like you with their luggage, but I do in my past time command this Infantry Division" :lol:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby manjgu » 18 Oct 2013 10:41

and surprised with his words abt Bogey Sen !!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 18 Oct 2013 11:00

RajitO wrote:
chetak wrote:
Layered deference or no, if some one had precious MBTs in his charge, he had better be more worried about their safety. The border was already "live" for many weeks before this attack.

If there is trouble on the border then even military units down south routinely go into a higher state of alertness. Live ammo is issued to all sentries. This has been going on for years. No one tells them to do so. In larger bases, individual units also step up their own security.

Why were these guys sleeping??


1. Did any of the precious MBTs get stolen or damaged?

2. To draw an analogy,in every successful assassination of a protected principal - from JFK to Indira Gandhi to Rabin, is your conclusion that the security was sleeping?

3. The border was "live", so what were the outer defences doing? Even after the police station attack, was this unit alerted?

4. "High State of alertness", "security stepped up" are precisely the kind of things that the general public wants to hear when such incidents occur. What has been the correlation between these statements and ability to neutralize a threat?


The CO, as per some reports got shot while he was sitting inside his tank and the terrorist sprayed the tank with his weapon from the first floor. IMVHO, there is a large element of command failure here, both before and during the attack.

I very much doubt if the paki jokers "blundered" into this particular camp by accident. Someone has kept a careful watch over a long period of time and knew the weak links. Sadly for us, their intelligence inputs and tactical assessment is top notch due to the plentiful availability of assets on the ground.

I will not join issue with you on this but as an Indian, I am mighty pissed at the general lax state of affairs. If you want to get out alive from a forward posting you never ever drop your guard. I don'r care what anyone else says. How is it that time and again some or the other poor guy gets to go home in a box because someone else took it easy??

We have an armed amreki ship floating around undetected in Indian waters for tens of days and some NSA creep making light of it?? I have many news letters in which people are brazenly asking for Indians to crew such ships and surprise, surprise, this very ship has a large number of Indians, mostly ex military, as crew and armed guards.

And we are still unable to find out what the ship is doing in Indian waters??
Like we were "unable" to "recover the bodies of terrorists" after the recent two week "infiltration" attempt??

Wouldn't we all like to know WTF is really going on??

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 18 Oct 2013 11:42

chetak wrote:
The CO, as per some reports got shot while he was sitting inside his tank and the terrorist sprayed the tank with his weapon from the first floor. IMVHO, there is a large element of command failure here, both before and during the attack.

I very much doubt if the paki jokers "blundered" into this particular camp by accident. Someone has kept a careful watch over a long period of time and knew the weak links. Sadly for us, their intelligence inputs and tactical assessment is top notch due to the plentiful availability of assets on the ground.

I will not join issue with you on this but as an Indian, I am mighty pissed at the general lax state of affairs. If you want to get out alive from a forward posting you never ever drop your guard. I don'r care what anyone else says. How is it that time and again some or the other poor guy gets to go home in a box because someone else took it easy??

We have an armed amreki ship floating around undetected in Indian waters for tens of days and some NSA creep making light of it?? I have many news letters in which people are brazenly asking for Indians to crew such ships and surprise, surprise, this very ship has a large number of Indians, mostly ex military, as crew and armed guards.

And we are still unable to find out what the ship is doing in Indian waters??
Like we were "unable" to "recover the bodies of terrorists" after the recent two week "infiltration" attempt??

Wouldn't we all like to know WTF is really going on??


Precisely, and as pointed out in an earlier post, the armed forces don't have a culture of transparency on this, and neither do our DDM have the gumption to follow a story through like the excellent deconstruction of the Camp Bastion attack in the US press(which has some parallels for us).

However the absence of that should not be an excuse to draw hasty conclusions on QRTs, SOPs, and command failure etc...is all I'm saying.

The CO getting shot in a tank is either really bad reporting...since it contradicts previous versions, or a damning indictment of the CO's tactical awareness, his leading from the front notwithstanding. Quite cold to say this but he has paid a price for any such lapse on his part if the latest theory is true.

Since you mention the attackers had better tactical intel and planning, absolutely, that is what it boils down to. But, the responsibility to create counter-intel and planning for such a threat does not rest with 16 Cav CO the way things work out there.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pratyush » 18 Oct 2013 11:55

^^^

In the absence of any information regarding the SOP, for force / base protection of the IA. It becomes very easy to blame the forces. We will do well to wait for the COI's judgement and its recommendation, for the future.

In the mean time, lets look at the positives and what it tells us about the professionalism of IA.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 18 Oct 2013 18:25

RajitO wrote:Whoa! Slow down there...you might want to qualify your remarks that such SOP is applicable only to certain units. Unless your contention is that ASC, AMC, EME units all maintain a QRT.

In the case of 16 Cav being under a different Corps despite being in a high threat level area, is the explanation for not having a QRT--and explains many of the other questions about other units, time taken etc.

Incidentally, if there is a larger frustration with how jehadis are being handled then QRTs are no silver bullet because QRTs by definition arrive later on the scene (else it would be called a Preemptive Reaction Team).

The CI grid is based on a layered defence. Once the outer layers fail, there will be always be hell to pay for the target.

Again, these press reports are based on hearsay, none of these Delhi-based journalists will fight MoD to get access on the ground to do a forensic blow by blow account of how things happened.


...QRT is not a wishlist that I am asking or imagining. It is a SOP for any unit whether in peace or field areas. 16 Cav is very much a unit of a fighting arm so pls don't compare them with EME, ASC etc. The effectiveness or alertness of QRT is a function of how well the unit is commanded (by the CO).

In a unit, the fundamentals are very simple - if it is anything about your trade, soldiering, discipline or just about anything else - whether good or bad, the CO is responsible. Commanding any unit or formation in Army is always considered a very honourable but a herculean task since there are tons of scenarios that can come up and you as the Top Dog are held accountable for it...

As per the report, tanks were used... which by itself tells that the SOP wasn't followed. While I am not a stickler for SOP for the sake of it, it doesn't require rocket science to figure out that tanks can't be part of QRT. Even if they were used, the very fact that other units had to step in to sanitize the area finally is a clear reiteration of the point I made that 16 Cav's preparedness wasn't there.

From a paltan ki izzat perspective, its terrible that your CO and 2IC get knocked off by a bunch of pigs, but its even more shameful when another paltan needs to step in to clear the mess

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 18 Oct 2013 18:49

Ajay Sharma wrote:
RajitO wrote:Whoa! Slow down there...you might want to qualify your remarks that such SOP is applicable only to certain units. Unless your contention is that ASC, AMC, EME units all maintain a QRT.

In the case of 16 Cav being under a different Corps despite being in a high threat level area, is the explanation for not having a QRT--and explains many of the other questions about other units, time taken etc.

Incidentally, if there is a larger frustration with how jehadis are being handled then QRTs are no silver bullet because QRTs by definition arrive later on the scene (else it would be called a Preemptive Reaction Team).

The CI grid is based on a layered defence. Once the outer layers fail, there will be always be hell to pay for the target.

Again, these press reports are based on hearsay, none of these Delhi-based journalists will fight MoD to get access on the ground to do a forensic blow by blow account of how things happened.


...QRT is not a wishlist that I am asking or imagining. It is a SOP for any unit whether in peace or field areas.


Sorry. I had trouble reading on after this.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 18 Oct 2013 20:36

Pls get specs if you have an issue

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 18 Oct 2013 20:38

An insiders full recall of the ACTUAL events in the 16 Cav incident...hope it clears some pending questions and will surely raise some new bogeys...........may the truth prevail!


" After PT that morning, the unit did not break off but moved on for gun cleaning, as the guns needed to be ready for 'after fire insp'. The CO and 2 i/c had moved back, and were at home. That is when these militants struck. They had already attacked Hiranagar police stn and killed 4 JKP pers and killed 2 x civs. They had commandeered a truck and were coming towards Samba, they stopped 2 kms short and were coming on foot. The 16 CAV Mess complex is the first army camp that side. They shot the lone sentry, and entered the Mess from the rear. One staff qrs door was open - the shot the mess house keeper and threw a grenade inside for a good measure.

They ran into the Mess and did proper room clearing drill of throwing 1-2 grens and spraying auto fire - this they did in the dining hall and lounge. They found no one - all YOs at gun cleaning!!! Meanwhile the 2 i/c and another jawan raced towards the guardroom at the gate, to pick up some weapons. One of the militant who had come out saw the 2 1/c running and shot him with 2 x bursts. The jawan running behind was hit by the militant who ahd gone up to the 1st floor of the empty G/Room block(except for one house on the first floor where a young lady of the family was alone - Mukul's wife, and the militants did not know then).

The CO and the qrt had surrounded them and started engaging them. The two militants who were outside, ran to the G/Room block spraying bullets over their shoulders. That was when the CO was hit on his left elbow, shattering it. Meanwhile the unit had put a tight outer cordon and a tight net around the unit perimeter, and moved 5x tanks. Unmindful of injury the CO got into the 1st tank and tried to run down one militant who had come out. he dodged back into the bldg, and his comrade shot at the CO fro the first floor. The CO was hit on the chest - by then he had lost a lot of blood and was evacuated in the tk.

During this time, the militants on the first floor realised there was a lady trapped in the opposite house, but the brave girl ahd locked all the doors of the house and was int he bedroom facing the rear with a kitchen knife to kill the first SOB who came in. She was guided by Maj Balwan to push out the cooler and jump down - which she did.
Seeing this, our YO, Capt Arpan Bose angry at the injury caused by these SOBs and seeing Mrs Mukul was safe, shot off 2x HE rds into the bldg, wherein one mo-bike next to the staircase caught fire. That frightened the sods and they hid between the water tks on the roof of the servants qrs of this blosk - access from the first floor.

The qrts of 2 SIKH had come by then - how? One of their boys was att with us undergoing cmptr course and he rang up his unit. Henc the unit and the bde reached there swiftly.
In hind sight, they should have permitted our brave hearts to bring down the block with 2 - 3more HE rds and the sods would have been dead quickly. But fearing collateral damage the sr offrs would not permit our brave hearts to do this, and they then took more time and had to bring in 9 SF - an unnecessary delay. "

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 18 Oct 2013 20:50

^^
Thanks for sharing this.

Folks, QRT is always a reality for all units (and I am repeating this once again). Even an ASC Supply Coy is expected to have atleast a section (10-12 soldiers) on QRT detail. At a Bde level, a Bn would be tasked, at a Bn level a Coy, and so on.

Even at a Bde level, each individual unit is expected to have its own safety secured first before any reinforcements can be expected. It may sound surprising to some but irrespective of your trade or arm, everyone in the Army is a soldier first. So even ASC, EME folks are expected to have a Quarterguard in their respective units and each is expected to be proficient in a weapon (even if he is a DMT - Driver Mechanical Transport).

This QRT concept is there for any WE (War Establishment) even if it is not in a field station (non-family location - in most cases border areas)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 18 Oct 2013 21:26

Thanks Ajay.
Its easy for folks to make snap judgements, but its always good to hear the actual details.
I don't know why 16 CAV did not have a QRT, but its heartening to see that they were not confused victims but reacted quickly and viciously, hence preventing further casualties to the more vulnerable sections within their base.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 18 Oct 2013 21:36

Karan M wrote:Thanks Ajay.
Its easy for folks to make snap judgements, but its always good to hear the actual details.
I don't know why 16 CAV did not have a QRT, but its heartening to see that they were not confused victims but reacted quickly and viciously, hence preventing further casualties to the more vulnerable sections within their base.

They did react with their QRT...I can't comment on their tactical employment though....

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 18 Oct 2013 21:56

"The CO and the qrt had surrounded them and started engaging them. "

You are correct.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 18 Oct 2013 22:37

Agreed Sameer, 16 Cav had a QRT and we don't know about their tactical employment. However, CO getting shot while in a tank, 2 Sikh finally coming in etc. means things went all over the place.

In this case, the Bde Cdr will have to answer some tough questions... Before, some folks jump in to defend the Bde Cdr citing that he wasn't there in the first place, I must reiterate that accountability follows the formal chain of command. If the CO and 2IC of a unit get shot and there is chaos like this, then the Bde Cdr has to answer whether he had ensured proper SOP were being implemented in his Bde etc...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 18 Oct 2013 22:49

The qrts of 2 SIKH had come by then - how? One of their boys was att with us undergoing cmptr course and he rang up his unit. Henc the unit and the bde reached there swiftly.


This part of the report (if true) is worrying because if the 2 Sikh QRT came only because one of their guys called them and only then the Bde got to know about the attack, then ofcourse the SOP was completely f***ed up

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 18 Oct 2013 23:15

Ajay Sharma wrote:Agreed Sameer, 16 Cav had a QRT and we don't know about their tactical employment. However, CO getting shot while in a tank, 2 Sikh finally coming in etc. means things went all over the place.

In this case, the Bde Cdr will have to answer some tough questions... Before, some folks jump in to defend the Bde Cdr citing that he wasn't there in the first place, I must reiterate that accountability follows the formal chain of command. If the CO and 2IC of a unit get shot and there is chaos like this, then the Bde Cdr has to answer whether he had ensured proper SOP were being implemented in his Bde etc...


Ajay, if we follow the first hand account in earnest, we see that but the CO and his No 2 were the only officers who were in the vicinity while rest of the boys were elsewhere. It was only natural for the 2IC to attempt to contain the initial attack and he died while attempting to arm himself. The CO also reached the area when the QRT reached. He was again in a position to lead which he did...we may question the manner in which it all went about later, but I am very sure even a General of the IA would have done the same finding no clear leaders present on the spot to engage the ANEs.....and in the end luck plays a very important role in the initial few minutes of any engagement while the situation is being assessed. I have a feeling that the CO fast tracked the initial encounter since he was aware of the families of the officers in the complex.......He was simply 'unlucky' to get shot like any other combatant........but he did the right thing in my opinion!

It is an irony that many combat decisions are questioned keeping in mind the nature of establishment conveniences rather than based on actual conditions as faced during a combat scenario.

Yes, the unit will however have to answer questions like why they had only a single sentry on duty when the situation was beyond normal.......:(. But as far the 2 Sikh QRT reaching the spot is concerned, that any co located formation will help out (after assessing its own threat) and should not be taken as a weakness on the part of 16 Cav. Personally I think a couple of more HE rounds would have done the trick.....but then I am thinking like the boy on the scene who lost his temper when he saw his unit being overrun by a gang of SOBs...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 19 Oct 2013 00:13

Ajay Sharma wrote:^^
....It may sound surprising to some but irrespective of your trade or arm, everyone in the Army is a soldier first. So even ASC, EME folks are expected to have a Quarterguard in their respective units and each is expected to be proficient in a weapon (even if he is a DMT - Driver Mechanical Transport).

This QRT concept is there for any WE (War Establishment) even if it is not in a field station (non-family location - in most cases border areas)



Thats what an old warhorse an AMC brigadier told me about his sojurn in Chusul where he picked off a few Chinese.

In the forces one is soldier first and then the trades/branches.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 19 Oct 2013 00:16

Agreed... We armchair Generals can only analyse and nitpick...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2013 01:11

ramana wrote:
Ajay Sharma wrote:^^
....It may sound surprising to some but irrespective of your trade or arm, everyone in the Army is a soldier first. So even ASC, EME folks are expected to have a Quarterguard in their respective units and each is expected to be proficient in a weapon (even if he is a DMT - Driver Mechanical Transport).

This QRT concept is there for any WE (War Establishment) even if it is not in a field station (non-family location - in most cases border areas)





Thats what an old warhorse an AMC brigadier told me about his sojurn in Chusul where he picked off a few Chinese.

In the forces one is soldier first and then the trades/branches.


This is precisely the point. Running around like headless chickens is counter productive. Leading from the front doesn't mean that you are the first to be shot leaving the men headless.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jamwal » 19 Oct 2013 01:24

Pratyush wrote:On a related note, I was traveling over the week end, while visiting a city and driving through the cant area. I was surprised to see that the gates were manned by armed Jawans.

This is not some thing that I had observed in the past.



Which city ? I've never seen a cantt. area unguarded ever anywhere.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 19 Oct 2013 01:55

chetak wrote:This is precisely the point. Running around like headless chickens is counter productive. Leading from the front doesn't mean that you are the first to be shot leaving the men headless.


Surely a Court of Inquiry will happen and there will be heads that will roll. We ofcourse have the advantage of looking at things in hindsight, but that is precisely why SOP are required to ensure that irrespective of what time of the day or situation, there are protocols that need to be followed.

I don't know how many remember a case a few years back when a teenage biker was shot dead in Bangalore in the Cantt. Area not very far from MG Road. He was apparently trying to avoid traffic cops from catching him and had tried to hide in some senior officers' quarters @ approx. 1-2 AM. There was hue and cry about it in media but the reality was that the guards had followed the SOP for such a situation.

Most of what Army (and I guess Navy and Air Force too) does as routine work is a set of very non-glamorous activities like creating procedures, hypothesizing (both peace time and war time) scenarios, training its personnel to be conversant with these procedures and scenarios, etc. Now in the ideal world all personnel should be equally adept in knowing and following them, but in reality that is precisely the difference between a well run unit and a poorly run unit

Each person in a well run unit knows precisely what is expected of him (if he is part of that procedure/scenario). After all that is what the training is all about.

Similarly, the screw ups that happen in select border posts are most of the times because someone didn't follow the SOP or such scenarios were not thought of to be converted into a SOP.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Oct 2013 02:24

on ndtv they had initially reported that the CO was out jogging and got shot in the initial phase of the attack after the jihadis got past the guard - who was taken unawares by the terrorists masquerading as security personnel. then on they broke into the mess and shot the 2ic

subsequently the stories have moved on

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nachiket » 19 Oct 2013 02:38

sameerjoshi wrote:
They ran into the Mess and did proper room clearing drill of throwing 1-2 grens and spraying auto fire - this they did in the dining hall and lounge. They found no one - all YOs at gun cleaning!!!

This could have been much much worse. If the soldiers had been at breakfast or something, they would have been sitting ducks. It was sheer luck that no one was there in the mess.

P.S.: What is a YO?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2013 03:30

Young Officer

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 19 Oct 2013 06:37

Ajay Sharma wrote:
chetak wrote:I don't know how many remember a case a few years back when a teenage biker was shot dead in Bangalore in the Cantt. Area not very far from MG Road. He was apparently trying to avoid traffic cops from catching him and had tried to hide in some senior officers' quarters @ approx. 1-2 AM. There was hue and cry about it in media but the reality was that the guards had followed the SOP for such a situation.

Most of what Army (and I guess Navy and Air Force too) does as routine work is a set of very non-glamorous activities like creating procedures, hypothesizing (both peace time and war time) scenarios, training its personnel to be conversant with these procedures and scenarios, etc. Now in the ideal world all personnel should be equally adept in knowing and following them, but in reality that is precisely the difference between a well run unit and a poorly run unit

Each person in a well run unit knows precisely what is expected of him (if he is part of that procedure/scenario). After all that is what the training is all about.

Similarly, the screw ups that happen in select border posts are most of the times because someone didn't follow the SOP or such scenarios were not thought of to be converted into a SOP.


Yes you are very right....SOP violation may be the root cause of majority of incidents/accidents where the IA has taken a hit (including the infamous raids when IA has been ambushed by cross border SSG/ ANE raids) as well the other services (like the sinking of our Kilo some days back, where this aspect is a suspect and even the IAF in many examples like the 'accidental' launch of a R73 over a forward AFB just when the MiG29s were landing after a Kargil escort sortie)..................I fully endorse your viewpoint on this....

However what happens when a situation gets out of control. Is it justified if us armchair warriors to analyse what actually happened before an inquiry report is over and crucify the very personnel who just might have saved further escalation of events.

That is my only point.........lets not trade our keyboards for Kalashnikovs and start shooting from the hip :) lets hold our gun triggers a wee bit more and look for the 'real' enemy!
Last edited by member_27862 on 19 Oct 2013 08:56, edited 2 times in total.

member_27862
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 19 Oct 2013 08:44

chetak wrote:This is precisely the point. Running around like headless chickens is counter productive. Leading from the front doesn't mean that you are the first to be shot leaving the men headless.


Sir, wait for the inquiry report. You are behaving like NDTV here.......running around like 'headless chickens' may be counter productive, but I suggest 'Don't count your chickens before they hatch'....

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 19 Oct 2013 08:51

sameerjoshi wrote: That is my only point.........lets not trade our keyboards for Kalashnikovs and start shooting from the hip :) lets hold our gun triggers a wee bit more and look for the 'real' enemy!


Roger :)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Philip » 19 Oct 2013 10:37

Pak continues its perfidy,26 LOC firing incidents,diff. locations.This is a concerted plan,not a sudden rush of blood to the head.Pak is going to make a serious play for J&K while India is in election mode.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 19 Oct 2013 10:54

Ajay Sharma wrote:Each person in a well run unit knows precisely what is expected of him (if he is part of that procedure/scenario). After all that is what the training is all about.



SOPs are never only on paper.

SOPs are constantly practised, run over and over again, critiqued, modified where necessary, continually improved and above all adaptable as the situation evolves. To ensure adaptability, red lines must be very clearly defined and easily recognised. Its all in the muscle memory.

Cowboys and SOPs never go together.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Paul » 19 Oct 2013 12:32

I don't know how many remember a case a few years back when a teenage biker was shot dead in Bangalore in the Cantt. Area not very far from MG Road. He was apparently trying to avoid traffic cops from catching him and had tried to hide in some senior officers' quarters @ approx.


He was from the peaceful community. Had happened in the aftermath of high profile attacks on N India.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pratyush » 19 Oct 2013 12:43

jamwal wrote:
Which city ? I've never seen a cantt. area unguarded ever anywhere.


I will not name the city, except, that, it was a North Indian city. The other cantt areas that I have seen always have watch towers, but they have usually been empty.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 19 Oct 2013 21:27

someday I hope the country & its leadership becomes worthy of its patriots like this...RIP :(

livefist:
Soldier Refuses Eid Leave, Killed In Pak Shelling Day Before Festival

Lance Naik Mohammed Firoz Khan of the Indian Army's 38 Rashtriya Rifles counter-insurgency unit postponed proceeding on leave for Eid this week to remain on patrol on the Line of Control in Jammu & Kashmir. Yesterday, a day before the festival, he was killed in heavy shelling by the Pakistan Army in Poonch sector of the frontier.

Yesterday's violation was part of a near continuous series of unprovoked violations of the ceasefire by Pakistan Army units deployed on the LC. A heavy exchange of fire began this morning at 10.40AM in the Krishna Ghati area in Poonch and Bhimber Gali area in Rajouri.

31-year-old Lance Naik Khan, who lived in Hyderabad, leaves behind his wife and two young children. R.I.P.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pratyush » 20 Oct 2013 06:40

Yet for the DDM it is more important his religion to be highlighted. It was an Indian who died, at the hands of the TSPA. That is something they will never understand.

Thus, they will keep on dividing the nation.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby PratikDas » 20 Oct 2013 17:13

Pratyush ji, I see Lance Naik Mohammad Firoz Khan as a role model. There are too many Indians propagating the notion that their religion comes before country.

The response to pseudo secularism has to be meritorious secularism and I can't think of a sacrifice being more meritorious.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jamwal » 20 Oct 2013 18:06

I don't want to sound callous, but I can't understand why death of this soldier is being given so much attention. A lot of Indian soldiers have died in recent months and neither received even half of the attention and "facebook likes".

Just because he is a muslim, his death is an example of whatever secularism/patriotism stands for and deaths of the rest is just routine stuff ?
I'll be the last person to dishonour his memory, but only if people show the same outrage when non-muslim soldiers die, it'll seem much less hypocritical and genuine.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Rahul M » 20 Oct 2013 19:01

on BR, every such death is worth a mention, irrespective of community.

secondly, highlighting his sacrifice is important for various reasons but this is NOT the thread to do it.

@all, please desist from discussion along those lines.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Bob V » 20 Oct 2013 21:35

20th Oct, day when first Chinese shell fell in Arunachal Pradesh in 1962.
Indian Army fought till last bullet,last man but we lost due to poor leadership and Army was ill-equipped.
Saluting veterans and martyrs of 1962 war.Never forget,never forgive.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 21 Oct 2013 00:25

Bob V wrote:20th Oct, day when first Chinese shell fell in Arunachal Pradesh in 1962.
Indian Army fought till last bullet,last man but we lost due to poor leadership and Army was ill-equipped.
Saluting veterans and martyrs of 1962 war.Never forget,never forgive.



and Remember, every time you see karan thapar :twisted:


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