Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 21 Oct 2013 07:49



Is there anyone here who has figured out exactly WTF is going on??

Please to enlighten onlee.

How exactly did the IA manage to get from "there" to "here"??

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 21 Oct 2013 08:09

chetak wrote:


Is there anyone here who has figured out exactly WTF is going on??

Please to enlighten onlee.

How exactly did the IA manage to get from "there" to "here"??


This has echoes of Sarp Vinash all over it...the army's missed a major trick by not getting the Army Commander - Northern Command to do an extensive debrief-oriented press conference.

But have no fear, the "competent authority" is entering the picture

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 21 Oct 2013 09:14

Keran...another case of SOP failure? Anybody got the insiders gen on this one?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 21 Oct 2013 10:58

Jeez....All this SOP fetish...An SOP is a written instruction primarily to achieve a subject of uniformity. It's not written in stone. If that would have been the case we would not need officers would we!! Just flip your friendly SOP Handbook as reference material. :P

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ashish raval » 21 Oct 2013 11:16

^^ I still remember IA saying that they will engage pukes on their own terms after solder mutilations and border raids. I am yet to see any action by IA. Seems they have both forgot and forgive pukes then. :evil:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 21 Oct 2013 11:23

vaibhav.n wrote:Jeez....All this SOP fetish...An SOP is a written instruction primarily to achieve a subject of uniformity. It's not written in stone. If that would have been the case we would not need officers would we!! Just flip your friendly SOP Handbook as reference material. :P


Yes fully agree to that...but then Kargil happened due to that, then the little known Kargil 2 incident not very far from Keran...that was also a SOP violation which was course corrected in time.........no one is hounding a unit and we all need to wait for a COI / Fact Finding report on the same...just wishing some one releases the inside story on an out of turn mandate and gives us some food for thought on what looks like a case where our boys were caught on the wrong foot (like the recent 16 Cav attack)............

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 21 Oct 2013 11:55

What was the SOP violation in Kargil? Just curious.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 21 Oct 2013 12:55

To start with, 16 Grenadiers patrolling lapses and failure to detect the enemy as close as the Tololing top, a short distance from Dras. SOP was in place to carry out observation/ patrolling on certain identified entry points; in case of Dras, the Tololing ridge and the Marpo La pass. Yes, some posts were to be vacated during winters, but a mechanism to keep them under observation from occupied posts was in place. Many of the laid down procedures to keep vigil in this aspect were violated/ relaxed. The Pak army were entrenched since end 1998 and till the time they were detected, they had become bold to venture out in various towns of Kargil sector. How do you otherwise explain Indian Army CSD canteen items from this sub sector found at point 5140 and in the Mushkoh Pak occupied posts. And remember, the initial detection took place in the Batalik sub sector, that too after reported contact by non combatants.....I fear our boys at Dras were taking it easy!

For a detailed analysis of Kargil war, IA lapses and IA counterattack, I thing you can refer to the Kargil war forum....

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 21 Oct 2013 13:59

ashish raval wrote:^^ I still remember IA saying that they will engage pukes on their own terms after solder mutilations and border raids. I am yet to see any action by IA. Seems they have both forgot and forgive pukes then. :evil:


Neither will such matter ever come out in the public space, truth of the matter is such actions have been carried out by both the armies since the 90's. They might have dropped in intensity, however this does not mean they do not happen.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 21 Oct 2013 14:54

sameerjoshi wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:Jeez....All this SOP fetish...An SOP is a written instruction primarily to achieve a subject of uniformity. It's not written in stone. If that would have been the case we would not need officers would we!! Just flip your friendly SOP Handbook as reference material. :P


Yes fully agree to that...but then Kargil happened due to that, then the little known Kargil 2 incident not very far from Keran...that was also a SOP violation which was course corrected in time.........no one is hounding a unit and we all need to wait for a COI / Fact Finding report on the same...just wishing some one releases the inside story on an out of turn mandate and gives us some food for thought on what looks like a case where our boys were caught on the wrong foot (like the recent 16 Cav attack)............


I agree while grey areas on what happened exist, what we have in the news are half baked stories at best. It is callous to critique based on those alone. WRT to the 16 Light Cavalry incident with all due respect while some lapses may have happened,there are a couple of things that need to be corrected.

1. The forementioned Unit is the first Army installation on the opposite side on the Highway after you cross the Bridge on Basantar among farmlands and civilian properties short of the Samba Overpass. If this was a deliberate attack, they there are juicier targets barely 100mts along the highway.

2. The unit fought with how it trained, as light cavalry. How does engaging and creating a cordon with a Troop of Tanks against Infantry in the open or in cover endanger the tanks. It looks like the unit recover pretty quickly to contain them.

3. Armoured units do not have the luxury in manpower that Line Infantry units come endowed with, while they might have troops on Guard Duty rotated. In Non-Field/Family stations only infantry units maintain Quick Reaction Forces period. Infact, for Combat Service Support Arms eg: ASC, AOC and EME will have DSC Platoons to provide security.

Consider this, An Infantry Division will have an a single Defence and Emplacement Company to provide security in times of war.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 21 Oct 2013 15:51

vaibhav.n wrote:2. The unit fought with how it trained, as light cavalry. How does engaging and creating a cordon with a Troop of Tanks against Infantry in the open or in cover endanger the tanks. It looks like the unit recover pretty quickly to contain them.

3. Armoured units do not have the luxury in manpower that Line Infantry units come endowed with, while they might have troops on Guard Duty rotated. In Non-Field/Family stations only infantry units maintain Quick Reaction Forces period. Infact, for Combat Service Support Arms eg: ASC, AOC and EME will have DSC Platoons to provide security.

Consider this, An Infantry Division will have an a single Defence and Emplacement Company to provide security in times of war.


A few nitpicks, light cavalry is an old terminology and is not relevant in today's scenario.

Any WE (War Establishment) unit has its own security detail (guards). DSC platoons are used for Area/Sub-Area etc type of PE (Peace Establishments)

At a Bde level, a Bn is tasked with the security, at Bn its a Coy etc. The level of scope may change, but for a unit level the primary and immediate security response is from its own resources

By the way, even the "supposed insider" info referred to a QRT from the same unit

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 21 Oct 2013 16:53

Ajay Sharma wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:2. The unit fought with how it trained, as light cavalry. How does engaging and creating a cordon with a Troop of Tanks against Infantry in the open or in cover endanger the tanks. It looks like the unit recover pretty quickly to contain them.

3. Armoured units do not have the luxury in manpower that Line Infantry units come endowed with, while they might have troops on Guard Duty rotated. In Non-Field/Family stations only infantry units maintain Quick Reaction Forces period. Infact, for Combat Service Support Arms eg: ASC, AOC and EME will have DSC Platoons to provide security.

Consider this, An Infantry Division will have an a single Defence and Emplacement Company to provide security in times of war.


A few nitpicks, light cavalry is an old terminology and is not relevant in today's scenario.

Any WE (War Establishment) unit has its own security detail (guards). DSC platoons are used for Area/Sub-Area etc type of PE (Peace Establishments)

At a Bde level, a Bn is tasked with the security, at Bn its a Coy etc. The level of scope may change, but for a unit level the primary and immediate security response is from its own resources

By the way, even the "supposed insider" info referred to a QRT from the same unit


Ajay,

DSC Platoons provide rear area security even at an Field Army(Command) and a Corps level. There is no authorization in the WE for an QRT(which is an Ad-hoc body) in the strength of an Armoured Regiment. These are provided from the Platoon/Troop on stand to attachment to the unit QuaterGuard. Supposedly, in this case the Regimental Recce Troop. The closest we come is at an Infantry Div level which are on its authorized strength. I never argued that a unit does not provide for its own security or is not responsible for the same.

The unit fought how it was trained to, mounted. It is not as if an Arty Battery decided to make bacon out of the Pakis.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 21 Oct 2013 17:15

vaibhav.n wrote:There is no authorization in the WE for an QRT(which is an Ad-hoc body) in the strength of an Armoured Regiment.


Unfortunately, due to QRTs having become "standard" in CI ops an impression is being sought to be conveyed on this thread that any guard detail/security force = QRT.

Well, people can always choose what they want to believe, last time I checked most of our states also had a state "commando" unit. Maybe we should start discussing them in the Special Forces thread with equal seriousness.

And then there is treating news reports quoting anonymous accounts as gospel--the same ones which have one of the army KIA in one account being a mess staff and in another a member of the mythical QRT.

Can I nominate the local AWWA body as a QRT as well since they are often called on in the middle of the night to sort out issues of domestic strife? :)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 21 Oct 2013 19:19

Vaibhav, I have never stated that QRT personnel only do that task. QRT at a unit level will be composed of personnel from the unit.

Moreover, the entire discussion seems to have moved only towards the QRT part of it. I do agree that we are all speculating and the truth will only come out in a COI, but going by whatever was shared in media and other sources, it looks like a case of being caught on the wrong foot with 2 senior most officers of the unitdead. I have nowhere undermined or demeaned their demise.

It surely is a sad situation both for the unit and their families, but I hope that there is a learning from this that prevents similar situations from happening again. We can be rest assured that the pigs will try to do this again if the outcome results in fatalities of senior ranks of a frontline unit like in this case

As regards, I stand corrected that they do also have a security detail at certain WE (Command & Corps level) location...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 21 Oct 2013 19:20

RajitO wrote:Can I nominate the local AWWA body as a QRT as well since they are often called on in the middle of the night to sort out issues of domestic strife? :)


If you don't have anything of value to be added in a discussion, pls don't attack the keyboard unnecessarily...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 21 Oct 2013 19:31

Ajay Sharma wrote:
RajitO wrote:Can I nominate the local AWWA body as a QRT as well since they are often called on in the middle of the night to sort out issues of domestic strife? :)


If you don't have anything of value to be added in a discussion, pls don't attack the keyboard unnecessarily...


Physician, heal thyself. More than one poster has tried to tell you, in ways ranging from "facts" to gentle sarcasm that you are way off tangent.

You are lucky that on BR mods are not ex-armed forces, and seem to have a rather liberal attitude towards people spreading disinformation-either out of genuine misconception or for not wanting to be seen to lose an argument.

Carry on regardless, this is highly amusing. :)

You can leave the moderation part to the moderators. As well these tongue-in-cheek comments. You have made your point and Ajay Sharma has made his. And the debate SO FAR has been civil. If he is factually incorrect, correct him with right information. No need to indulge in snide remarks - rohitvats

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Vipul » 23 Oct 2013 16:54

Praveen Swami trumpeting Kangressi enabling of Indian Army's EDITED BY MOD

Pakistani troops have forced Indian authorities to end construction work on a model village project near the frontier town of Keran, saying it violates the terms of the 2003 ceasefire agreement with India. Highly placed Jammu and Kashmir government sources have said that, troops at Pakistani forward positions broadcast warnings over loudspeakers at about 5 pm on Monday, saying they would not be responsible for the consequences if the work went ahead. Local authorities stopped work soon thereafter.

Jammu and Kashmir government sources said, the work included building a community hall and some minor public facilities some 200 metres from the Kishanganga river—known as the Neelum in Pakistan—which runs along the Line of Control.

Keran recently saw intense fighting, after Pakistani troops were alleged to have occupied small stretches of territory and border observation posts running along a ridge over the abandoned village of Shalabhatta.

The intrusion was announced to have cleared after a fortnight—long military operation, but reports have suggested three Indian military outposts were only secured a week after that. Keran recently saw intense fighting, after Pakistani troops were alleged to have occupied small stretches of territory and border observation posts running along a ridge over the abandoned village of Shalabhatta. This latest stand—off comes amidst a sharp increase in ceasefire violations, with Indian and Pakistani troops exchanging non—stop fire in the southern stretches of their frontier in Jammu and Kashmir in recent days.

Indian diplomatic sources say the November 2003 ceasefire was based on an unwritten agreement, which in essence stipulated that neither side would reinforce its fortifications along the LoC — a measure first agreed to after the 1971 war. In 2006, the two sides exchanged drafts for a formal agreement. Since then, the sources said, negotiations have stalled over differing ideas on what kind of construction is permissible.

However, the Keran model village stand—off marks the first instance in which Pakistan has questioned India’s right to engage in civilian construction works on its side of the Line of Control.

In October last year, violent skirmishes broke out in Charunda, near Uri, after a confrontation over new Indian military construction in the area. Pakistan’s Director-General of Military Operations complained about Indian construction work around Charunda, in Uri. His Indian counterpart, Lieutenant-General Vinod Bhatia, however, responded that India’s works were purely intended to prevent illegal border crossings. The unresolved dispute led to exchanges of fire, which eventually escalated into shelling and the killings of soldiers on both sides.

India insists that it needs to expand counter-infiltration infrastructure because of escalating operations by jihadist groups across the LoC.

Indian and Pakistani diplomats last met on December 2, 2012, to discuss the draft agreement, but could make no headway.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 24 Oct 2013 01:49

The rot seems to spread far and wide

Retired officer sentenced for trying to sell Regimental lands of which he is a trustee

...

The case

    Brigadier Sukhjit Singh (retd) has been held guilty of trying to sell off 220 acres of land belonging to his regiment (Scinde Horse) in UP of which he was one of the trustees
    He has been sentenced to five-year imprisonment, besides being ordered to pay a fine of Rs 25,000
    He was awarded the Maha Vir Chakra for warding off a heavy enemy armoured attack supported by artillery in the Shakargarh Sector on the western frontier during the 1971 Indo-Pak war



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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Austin » 24 Oct 2013 17:54

Bureaucracy Strangles Indian Modernization Efforts
Bureaucratic hurdles and government indecision continue to cripple India’s Army modernization plans, and planners say with no major acquisitions in the past five years, the Army must fight a domestic low-intensity conflict with outdated, ineffective weaponry.

The Army faces a weapons shortfall with an inventory about 40 percent to nearly 65 percent outdated, the planners added.

The planners warned that unless US $50 billion in new acquisitions are put on a fast track, the Army’s defense preparedness will be pushed back by at least 10 years.

One senior Army official said infantry, mechanized and armored forces, artillery, logistics, ordnance, air defense and aviation all face vast equipment shortfalls, and major purchases are 10 years behind schedule.

“We are even not prepared for basic war with our hostile neighbor Pakistan,” the Army official said.

Land forces will continue to be of prime importance, given the geopolitical situation, said most analysts.

“With over 15,000 kilometers of land boundary, almost one-third of which is disputed, a continental war will continue to be relevant both in the conventional and subconventional paradigm,” said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst. “The Indian Army will have to sustain the present capabilities while upgrading these to fight in a mobile, network-centric environment in the deserts, plains and the mountains.

“For this, focus on upgradation of weapons and equipment, as well as human resources, would be necessary to cope with future challenges.”

Budget allocations have not been a major problem; complex Defence Ministry bureaucratic processes have largely been responsible for delays in procurement of essential weapons and equipment, several Army officials said.

For 2013-14, the Army received $3.3 billion out of $37.71 billion in total defense allocations, to buy new weapons and equipment, about the same amount it received for 2012-13. And yet, the Army returned nearly $259 million from fiscal 2012 because several defense programs could not be finalized.

Army purchase plans include replacing air defense systems, buying quick-reaction surface-to-air missiles, medium-range surface-to-air missiles, ultralight howitzers, military vehicles, light utility helicopters, UAVs, assault rifles and tactical communication radios.

The Army has to prepare to fight China and Pakistan simultaneously, an Army official said. But military planners privately say the pace of preparedness is slow.

“I see the defense preparedness only worsening as we go by and our mighty forces will still continue to operate and fight in the most inhospitable terrain and against a better equipped enemy, albeit for the motherland; and in return, the land responds with scanty respect for the heroes who are prepared to lay down their lives without even blinking an eye,” said K.V. Kuber, retired Indian Army colonel and defense analyst.

Defense planners also said there is little progress in replacing obsolete Army weapons and equipment. India needs to upgrade its rudimentary command, control, communication, intelligence and surveillance capabilities and improve its ability to launch offensive operations in the mountains, said Gurmeet Kanwal, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 24 Oct 2013 19:09

Austin, No its not the bureaucracy but the politicians. Scapegoating as usual in the article.

Its politicial direction that is putting up the bureaucratic hurdles.


Root causes are a misplaced CBM with US to not create Cold Start capability.
And a bigger cause that INC considers the armed forces procurement as their gravy train and needs the cut since the Jeep to Westland helicopter scandal.
All delays are to enable the cut to be paid surreptiously.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Hiten » 25 Oct 2013 10:41

Project EMERALD
Image

The Indian Army has, thus, initiated 'Project EMERALD', with an aim to change its style of functioning. An acronym for 'EME Reliability Availability Logistics Delivery', the Army plans to revamp its operation on a backbone of Information-Technology, by adopting a suitable ERP system. This undertaking, being headed by a Brigadier-rank Officer, aims to link up the EME's numerous establishments to one another, so that data & information can be conveniently shared, updated & accessed remotely, in real-time. It would make possible, remote collaboration between people, for analysing problems & arriving at solutions, that could then be made available through the same IT-infrastructure, on the fly. Besides streamlining operation & preventing unnecessary duplication of data & processes, it would enable information pertaining to a recently experienced problem & its corresponding solution to be quickly incorporated into the regimes of personnel undergoing training, thereby equipping them to address the latest challenges, once they are deployed on the field. Digitisation of its million+ inventory data & the proposed geo-tagging of all information should translate to much better management, providing the Army's procurement arm an accurate overview of the inventory status. Subsequently, orders could be placed for spares & corresponding financial transactions handled, all within the a consolidated eco-system of the ERP. Planning a system that would be equipped with multiple redundancies & safeguards, it would be safe to state that, once successfully implemented, upon attaining stabilisation, the IA would have, at its disposal, an unprecedented scale of data fusion, that it could utilise to create accurate optimisation models & undertake failure predictions. A significant leap into the contemporary, with a foot in the future.


via http://www.aame.in/2013/10/project-emer ... inual.html

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 25 Oct 2013 10:51



Hmmm...despite this

"Two of the biggest IT projects currently underway at Indian Army and IAF are computerised inventory control project (CICP) and integrated materials management online system (IMMOS). Business software makers SAP and IFS Defense are currently exploring an integrated ERP opportunity at these organisations....

.......TCS has been working on Army's CICP project for over ten years,"


http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2009-07-01/news/27659593_1_iaf-projects-indian-air-force

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27847 » 25 Oct 2013 14:35

Austin wrote:Bureaucracy Strangles Indian Modernization Efforts
Bureaucratic hurdles and government indecision continue to cripple India’s Army modernization plans, and planners say with no major acquisitions in the past five years, the Army must fight a domestic low-intensity conflict with outdated, ineffective weaponry.

The Army faces a weapons shortfall with an inventory about 40 percent to nearly 65 percent outdated, the planners added.




Question-1: What does army need for mountain warfare that it does not have already?

Question-2: How does army arrive at $50B figure as to the money it needs for modernization?

It seems from such news that their is a morale or ideology problem with the army rather than the equipment.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Hiten » 25 Oct 2013 19:27

RajitO wrote:Project EMERALD


Hmmm...despite this

"Two of the biggest IT projects currently underway at Indian Army and IAF are computerised inventory control project (CICP) and integrated materials management online system (IMMOS). Business software makers SAP and IFS Defense are currently exploring an integrated ERP opportunity at these organisations....

.......TCS has been working on Army's CICP project for over ten years,"


http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2009-07-01/news/27659593_1_iaf-projects-indian-air-force


that was an AOC project

The Army's decision to go ahead with EMERALD could be seen in light of its earlier experience with ERP solutions. The Army Ordnance Corp [AOC] was the 1st of its branch to initiate & deploy such a system. Undertaken by the AOC's Computerised Inventory Control Project - Technical Group [CICP-TG], the ERP system helped automate & standardise processes, saving time & streamlining its logistics support function. First mooted in 1996, the solution was an integration of 24 software modules, accessible from more than 300 computer terminals. Within 3 years of its implementation, in the early 2000s, the Army reported cost savings of Rs. 250 Crores INR, 20 times the cost of its investment. Buoyed by this positive result, it decided to expand the scope of its adoption, initiating Phase II of its implementation at the AOC. This time, it brought in the National Institute for Smart Government [NISG] & Management Development Institute [MDI] as consultants, to help it in the adoption of an ERP solution, built using Commercial Off-The-Shelf [COTS] software, a sign of maturing ERP modules.1&2

http://www.aame.in/2013/10/project-emer ... inual.html

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 26 Oct 2013 01:02

Garg wrote:
Question-1: What does army need for mountain warfare that it does not have already?

Question-2: How does army arrive at $50B figure as to the money it needs for modernization?

It seems from such news that their is a morale or ideology problem with the army rather than the equipment.


How do you mean? Please care to elaborate..

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Victor » 26 Oct 2013 01:18

What I got was army doesn't need anything and it simply needs to buck up and stop whining. Hope I'm wrong.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nachiket » 26 Oct 2013 02:14

Garg wrote:Question-1: What does army need for mountain warfare that it does not have already?

Everything from more helicopters and artillery guns to lighter BPJs.

Question-2: How does army arrive at $50B figure as to the money it needs for modernization?

By calculating the cost of the individual equipment it needs and adding it up. Its called Math.

It seems from such news that their is a morale or ideology problem with the army rather than the equipment.

What are you basing this ridiculous conclusion on?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 26 Oct 2013 04:08

A pretty hard hitting article on current state of affairs.

http://gfilesindia.com/frmArticleDetail ... s%20within

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27847 » 26 Oct 2013 10:24

nachiket wrote:
Garg wrote:Question-1: What does army need for mountain warfare that it does not have already?

Everything from more helicopters and artillery guns to lighter BPJs.

Question-2: How does army arrive at $50B figure as to the money it needs for modernization?

By calculating the cost of the individual equipment it needs and adding it up. Its called Math.

It seems from such news that their is a morale or ideology problem with the army rather than the equipment.

What are you basing this ridiculous conclusion on?


OK let us dissect your arguments.

1. Helicopters - India is buying variants of Dhruv and Mi-17 (both medium helicopters) in large numbers.
What is stuck is the small helicopter, which has a very limited utility in a war scenario.
What is missed is that India can build more Chetaks (now fitted with Dhruv's engine). So helicopter building is not a problem. Problem is army's insistence on an imported product.

2. Medium guns - India has 130mm M-46 and 105 mm IFG/LFG in artillery regiments. The 155mm guns are insufficient in numbers due to Bofors scandal.

Again Army is to blame for wanting to import such medium technology product. Indian industry always had the ability to build guns/howitzers even 20 years back also. This ability has not been utilized. Today Tata and Bharat Forge are waiting for orders. Country's automobile industry is the best place for building tanks, IFVs and guns. Please look at the examples of other countries.

Army can just buy more M-46 and IFG in the meantime. But it prefers to stick to an 'imported gun'.

3. BPJ (Bullet Proof Jackets)

You can tell me if DRDO has developed this or not, and if developed, why the tech is not transferred to factories?
You cannot realistically import every screw and nail to equip 1.2M regular force and 1M para-military.


As far as MATH, you tell me the calculations. I am mystified by such figures.

I talk to soldiers, not generals to arrive at my conclusions. The problem with this country is that an elite is out to destroy this country, due to continued influence of outsiders.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 26 Oct 2013 11:14

I am confused...maybe because I talk to generals.

Chetak aka the Alouette III is indigenous?
Dhruv is built without influence of outsiders?
Country's automobile industry-Suzuki, Ford, Hyundai, GM-is Indian?
Russia is a state in India (M-46)?

So much to learn, so little time...


You can raise your concerns about the state of domestic Mil-Ind complex in a more constructive manner - without indulging in such do-nothing inane posts which derail the topic and act as only flame-baits. Any such post in future will invite summary warning. - rohitvats

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 26 Oct 2013 14:41

Please go ahead and apply the same standard to the post above mine then...which would obviate the need for me to respond at the same level.

Mods are free to be subjective...but consistency is not too much to ask for, is it?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27847 » 26 Oct 2013 14:48

I think this 155mm gun issue is overblown.

Point 1: The issue was decline in numbers of Bofors pieces due to shortage of spares. All recent news point to this been overcome. To me, the critical things are hydraulics, barrels, and ballistics computer. If these are made locally, all defective pieces would have returned to service.

Point 2: Some M-46 have been upgraded to 155mm. It is not clear how many, but I heard LONG back (early 2000s) that 400 pieces were earmarked for upgradation. If this program is completed, it would have beefed up 155mm numbers.

Point 3: Some of artillery units would have converted to MLRS (due to induction of Smerch and Pinaka).

Point 4: What about Prithvi II units? Are these new units or old heavy artillery units?

So for me, 155mm acquisition is about 'modernization plan or acquiring better capability', rather than equipment plan.

Can somebody tell us the equipment breakup of 220 artillery units that exist in Indian army?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Rahul M » 26 Oct 2013 15:18

Garg, rohit asked you a question. kindly answer it.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pratyush » 26 Oct 2013 16:57

Garg,

The 155 MM is a part of Field Art Rational plan. The IA has multiple types of guns, with multiple shell types, in terms of calibers. . The plan is to standardize the Arty in to 155MM in order to standardize logistics.

Add to that modern surveillance capability in the shape of drones and human observations. It will give IA long range killing power.

While I would agree that the IA / MOD were remiss in not asking the domestic industry in seeking home made solution, earlier. However, today the domestic industry is geared up to deliver a modern 155 mm gun. The IA will also look at it and make the best possible choice.

When it comes to other types of gear. Please understand that, the IA is best judge of what is modern and what is obsolete. As most equipment has a finite service life & combat capability. Which can be effected by age and technological factors.

If one is to create a tabular records of the equipment holdings of the IA. We will realize just how, good / bad the situation truly is. But at the same time, such a record will not be available to BRF.

So we will take the word of the IA / MOD on this matter.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby abhik » 26 Oct 2013 19:07

Garg wrote:Question-2: How does army arrive at $50B figure as to the money it needs for modernization?

BTW who exactly put out the $50B figure anyway? The Army or some "consultant"/"analyst" with vested interests? What exactly do we get for the $50B? And in what time frame is this amount to be spent? Seems to me like someone is peddling the "Desh Bachao, Lakho karoro ka maal import karo".
Figures like $50B, $100B are routinely bandied about but has any thought been put into determining whether we can actually afford? There seems to be no holistic approach or long term planning to our weapons acquisition programme. What armaments do we need in the next 5-10 years and what is the the amount of money that we can spend for the same.What we have instead is an ad hoc system with no fixed limits on cost. Say the cost a particular system turns out to be 2x what you had allocated then where does the extra money come from? Does the FM simply allocate more money to the defence budget or does it come at the cost of some other weapon acquisition programme? We are negotiating deals for fighters that cost 3 times the domestic alternative, Artillery that cost 3-5 times, man portable ATGMs that cost 10 times what is currently in the inventory. Exactly where are we compromising to be able to buy these? Sure the alternatives aren't the best around but we need only what is good enough. The current mentality seems to be imported uber maal or nothing.
Also it is often claimed that money is not a constraint, that it's just the bureaucratic system that is slowing down the acquisition process and that the MoD is unable to spend the budgeted amount. This I don't think is completely true. Quoting from the article..
For 2013-14, the Army received $3.3 billion out of $37.71 billion in total defense allocations, to buy new weapons and equipment, about the same amount it received for 2012-13. And yet, the Army returned nearly $259 million from fiscal 2012 because several defense programs could not be finalized.

The Army returned only $259M out of the $3.3B it was allocated, which means it was unable to spend only about 8%. The value of the deals that get delayed or fall by the wayside every year is in the billions. The money we are allocating doesn't seem to be enough to cover all the tenders the MoD is putting out, let alone be enough for our armed forces to reach the TFTA levels that every BRF armchair jingo dreams of.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 26 Oct 2013 21:51

abhik wrote: BTW who exactly put out the $50B figure anyway? The Army or some "consultant"/"analyst" with vested interests? What exactly do we get for the $50B? And in what time frame is this amount to be spent? Seems to me like someone is peddling the "Desh Bachao, Lakho karoro ka maal import karo". <SNIP>


If you had spent grand total of 5-minutes trying to research the topic than indulge in whine fest, you would have got the answer to your question.

For starters, there is something known as Long Term Perspective Planning (LTTP) which formulates requirement for a 15-year period. It has been recently formulated after a 2-year ground work for 2012-2027 period.

Vayu Aerospace carried a detailed article on this exercise - here is the link:

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/Indian_Armed_Forces_Long-Term_Integrated_Perspective_P.pdf

Excerpt:

Five days later, on 2 April 2012, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), headed by Defence Minister AK Antony, cleared the 15-year Long-Term Integrated Perspective Plan ( LTIPP), which although a broad vision document, prescribes the acquisition road map for the armed forces over the next 15 years (2012-2027). According to a Defence Ministry official, the DAC gave in-principle approval to the LTIPP 2012-2027 and Five-Year Defence Plan 2012-2017. This also directs that “requirements of the armed forces should increasingly be met through indigenisation and robust involvement of the private sector.”

The LTIPP for 2012-2027 was drawn up after an elaborate process spread over two years which involved the MoD, Headquarters of the Integrated Defence Services and three Services Headquarters. Following the DAC approval, the unclassified version of the LTIPP has been promulgated in the form of a Technology Perspective Capability Road Map to enable the DRDO, the defence public sector undertakings and industry to map out their research and development activities. This then covers the ‘vision’ for the 12th, 13th
and 14th Defence Plans.Since the Indian Armed Forces LTIPP itself has not been officially released, its essential features have been copiously incorporated in the Technology Perspective Capability Road Map, which is already in the public domain and mirrors the vision of the military planners. In the extracts that follow is enunciated the quintessence of the measures purportedly leading to India’s reinforced Armed Forces by the year 2027.


Link to Technology Perspective Capability Road Map document from MOD website:

https://mod.gov.in/writereaddata/TPCR13.pdf

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 26 Oct 2013 22:02

Pratyush wrote:When it comes to other types of gear. Please understand that, the IA is best judge of what is modern and what is obsolete. As most equipment has a finite service life & combat capability. Which can be effected by age and technological factors.


Actually, till the point IA revamps its entire acquisitions process and creates a proper technology/product development cell within, they really are limited in judging what is best/modern etc. They are at current very dependent on vendor submissions. This is proven by how trials of complex equipment get sidetracked and how many times IA to revise RFI etc.
Requirements for future systems are sometimes high level and hence there is a lot of leeway in deciding what is what. Otherwise, they are too specific and appear tailored to certain equipment in service or from select/ed vendor/s. Gives losing vendor/s a nice stick to derail the process too.

If one is to create a tabular records of the equipment holdings of the IA. We will realize just how, good / bad the situation truly is. But at the same time, such a record will not be available to BRF.


You can create one which at least provides a decent idea of what they do have. There is a lot of data available openly..

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 26 Oct 2013 22:11

Karan M wrote:<SNIP>You can create one which at least provides a decent idea of what they do have. There is a lot of data available openly..


Karan - this is an excellent thought.

We can tabulate items for army along the lines of combat arms and undertake following activity:

1. Equipment which are long in the tooth and for which replacement is already underway or planned (RFP/RFI released or R&D work underway in DRDO or TOT signed with DPSU.)

2. New equipment being inducted in the Combat Arm which was hitherto not there - for example, various radars and ELINT/COMINT equipment.

3. Equipment for which replacement will become due in another 10-15 years time.

We can track the movement of inductions, acquisition process, status of R&D at DRDO or TOT production with DPSU.

This can be another topic for BRF Project.

Game?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 26 Oct 2013 22:25

Yes indeed, only caveat - need some time to do this. Going to be snowed under through November. But if we start a thread, we can post snippets from time to time, and organize later?


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