Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
member_27862
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 86
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27862 » 29 Dec 2013 21:23

Karan M wrote:
sameerjoshi wrote:BTW.....A Mig 25 will never fly low and slow over anything...it is simply not used in that role due to operational limitation of its huge engines. Also flying at Mach 2+ (which was the mission speed at a height of around 13 km for this scenario) it will get the same quality of imagery akin to flying at Mach 0.5 or so.
And this gutsy pilot story is also a 'fable fabricated beyond comprehension'. Yes, MiG29s were used to escort this sortie (and not Mirages)......


As I recall from the conversation, during Kargil, the IAF was busy adapting whatever equipment and capabilities it had, to make the best of a tough situation. And as regards photo quality, the kit on the MiG-25 captured a wider area at good enough resolution for the IAF, as versus pods on other IAF aircraft. Of course, didnt get into specifics regarding particular items but correlating it with public info seems reasonable in that we didn't have many aircraft or a surplus of options. IIRC we only had Vinten pods then.

As regards this episode being a fable, the details as I remember them, came from a pilot who mentioned setting it up and the basic escort details (he was from a Mirage 2000 sq, so the working assumption that it was the Mirage 2000s doing the escorting). He did mention though that MiG-29s did do escort work for even the Mirages.

The specific pilot in question was fairly senior at the time and also deeply involved with the LGB work from the Mirages.

The low and slow part comes from "lower" the relative altitude of the ground vs aircraft (thanks to the peaks), and slow (slower than usual M2+). The speed issue was mentioned for some specifics - IIRC it had to do with turn limits & not crossing the LOC but the sortie was not the norm was clearly mentioned.

Per memory, he was also part of the mission planning itself, ergo his first hand account of how risky the mission was given the MiG-25 platform limitations and the SAM threat (which is why the other MiG-25 pilot/s demurred & they had a right to) but one agreed even so.

Its been a while now, but these are the specifics I remember, from the conversations at the time. All errors of interpretation/recollection mine onlee.

You may have more first hand detail on the matter given your experience.


Karan, I will just say that the IAF does not seek volunteers for missions. A squadron is tasked for a mission and they select the most capable crew to carry out the mission. NO refusal is tolerated. By your analogy that they have the right to refuse a dangerous mission, how do you explain the IAF fighter sorties on Tiger Hill and Tololing during the first two days of the Air assault with tons of SAMs flying in the battle zone? Would the IAF have tolerated any refusal by any of its pilots during this testing time when the army lads were facing a wall of lead in Drass and Batalik during that time.....

SandeepS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 40
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 02:34
Location: Cuckoo-land

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SandeepS » 29 Dec 2013 21:58

As per AM Ashok K Goel Ops Mgr at ARC during Kargil, ARC's Gulf Stream fitted with Multi Camera Reconnaissance System played a major role in PR missions. They were escorted by MiG-29/Mirage-2000. IAF Jaguar were also used for PR missions but as compared to ARC's Gulf Stream, they were restricted in their operational altitude (30,000 ft vs 45,000-50,000 ft), endurance (45-60 min vs 5.5 hours) and high vibration levels in Jaguar restricted the clarity. Also ARC had more experienced PI personnel for interpreting & analysing the raw images.

Refer AM Goel's blog post: http://airmarshalashokgoel.blogspot.co. ... t.html?m=0

Gulf Stream's endurance & stability as a platform makes it a choice for different recce/ELINT/EW roles.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 22:13

Hi Sameer, I dont think it was a refusal per se, against a predefined plan or official orders. More like they approached the relevant people from the MiG-25 unit for collaborative planning in which a few pilots were sounded out in which a couple/few pilots said no to the plan and one said yes, and so it went ahead. At the end of the day, the people who flew that particular platform had to sign off on the plan so it needed their buy-in, thats what I remember from the way he described the whole thing. It didn't have to do with personal courage alone, but the entire, will the mission be worth it, can it be done within all the constraints aspect.

The person who narrated this, was involved in both the missions you mentioned (the Tiger Hill one for sure). You are quite right that the challenges faced by the IA were on the IAFs mind during the whole conflict, some really direct accounts of all that as well.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 22:14

SandeepS wrote:As per AM Ashok K Goel Ops Mgr at ARC during Kargil, ARC's Gulf Stream fitted with Multi Camera Reconnaissance System played a major role in PR missions. They were escorted by MiG-29/Mirage-2000. IAF Jaguar were also used for PR missions but as compared to ARC's Gulf Stream, they were restricted in their operational altitude (30,000 ft vs 45,000-50,000 ft), endurance (45-60 min vs 5.5 hours) and high vibration levels in Jaguar restricted the clarity. Also ARC had more experienced PI personnel for interpreting & analysing the raw images.

Refer AM Goel's blog post: http://airmarshalashokgoel.blogspot.co. ... t.html?m=0

Gulf Stream's endurance & stability as a platform makes it a choice for different recce/ELINT/EW roles.


Sandeep, thats an amazing find. Thanks for bringing this up

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 22:23

>> Only person who availed this opportunity was Air Marshal AY Tipnix (VCAS at that time) and some of his operational staff. He flew two missions in B-707 strategic air borne surveillance aircraft.

This is very interesting. From public reports, we had Boeing 737s with BEL supplied ELINT kit in IAF service. Interesting to know that an ARC operated Boeing 707 was used for ELINT at Kargil.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 22:33

Warning: That blog above seems to be infected with some spam. Click on it & it takes you to some youtest website selling iphones.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 30 Dec 2013 03:45

Dec 26th 2013 marks the death of a friend and margdarshak, Brig-Gen (Retd) Dr. Radhey Mohan Mathur of AMC. He joined the IA as a medical graduate in 1948 and served in many theaters Chusul etc. He was a scholar and a gentleman. He was 90. He treated both the PVC winners in 1962.

Will post more once I get the formal obit.

http://www.skylawnmemorialpark.com/obit ... !/Obituary

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chaanakya » 30 Dec 2013 23:10

NEW DELHI: Army chief General Bikram Singh on Monday took over as the new chairman of the chiefs of staff committee(CoSC) from Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, who hangs his boots on Tuesday. Air Marshal Arup Raha, in turn, will replace ACM Browne as the next IAF chief.

As the CoSC chairman, ACM Browne pushed several tri-Service initiatives including the critical one for creation of three new joint commands for space, cyber and special forces. He also asked the government to give "full representation" to the military on the 7th Central Pay Commission as well as resolve pending issues like rank pay.

Gen Singh, in his new role as the CoSC chairman, will also have to ensure synergy among the three Services which often pull in different directions on doctrinal, planning, policy and operational issues. Of the particular significance will be the three new commands, considered crucial for deploying capabilities for conventional as well asymmetric warfare in a unified manner, which are now awaiting the final government nod.

India as of now has only two unified commands, the Andaman and Nicobar Island regional command and the Strategic Forces Command to handle nuclear weapons, as also an integrated defence staff set-up.

Successive governments have also dragged their feet in creating the post of a General No. 1, a tri-Service military chief, either in the shape of a chief of defence staff (CDS) or a permanent chairman of the CoSC.

The existing CoSC comprises the Army, Navy and IAF chiefs, with the senior-most of them acting as the "rotational" chairman till he retires. A permanent chairman, with a fixed two-year tenure, would mean a fourth four-star general in the CoSC as the "first among equals".

Despite being strongly recommended by the GoM report on `Reforming the national security system' in 2001 after the Kargil conflict, the CDS post has been kept in cold storage. Similarly, the government has not moved towards appointing a permanent CoSC chairman, which was recommended by the 14-member Naresh Chandra Taskforce in its report submitted to PM Manmohan Singh in May 2012, and later endorsed by the three Services.

The defence ministry has also rejected the need for "cross-staffing", or the posting of military officers to MoD to bridge the civil-military disconnect, holding that there were institutional mechanisms in place to ensure "joint consultations" as well as provide "integrated advise" to the defence minister.
Post a comment


jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5095
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jamwal » 31 Dec 2013 00:13

Karan M wrote:Warning: That blog above seems to be infected with some spam. Click on it & it takes you to some youtest website selling iphones.

Working fine for me. It's Blogspot, not a private site.

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 368
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby dinesh_kimar » 31 Dec 2013 12:32

*****CROSS POSTING FORM Defence Forum abt likely ORBAT of Mountain Strike Corps***********

OK , i searched the Net, this is the best i could get.....(This is all the vision of General Sundarji way back in 1986!)

Strike Corps in India and Pakistan have:

>1 x Armoured Division (the nucleus, around which Strike Corps is built)
> 2 x Infantry Division
> Artillery Assets
> Engineer Assets
> Air Defence Assets

Arty Divisions (like 40th with 2nd Corps) are additional
RAPID Divisions with one Mechanised Brigade (Tank + BMP) are additional.

For MSC, there will be less of Armour, probably replaced by Air Assault Division.

Air Assault Division will have (probably inspired by USA's 101 Airborne)
> integral Artillery (here 145 ULH Howitzers may be put to use, to replace 105mm weapons already available)
> Integral Helicopter Component (Light for troops / Heavy for Arty )
> Special Forces Component


So MSC ORBAT might be:

> 1 x Air Assault Division (Integral Artillery + Helicopters)
> 2 x Infantry / Mountain Division
> Engineer assets
> Artillery assets
> Anti Aircraft assets

Additional RAMID Divisions as required (maybe Armour replaced by Helicopter?)
RAMID Orbat (guesswork)
> 2 x Mountain brigades
> 1 x Air Assault with Integral Helicopters
> Arty Assets
> Engineer Assets
> Air Defence Assets

Attack Helicopters will be part of MSC

Waiting for Gurus like Rohit Vats to add more clarity.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 31 Dec 2013 21:28

^^^ IMHO, every Strike Corps has a dedicated Arty Div, there are additional (I) Arty Brigades held at Corps level. apart from this there are div level Arty Brigades too.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 31 Dec 2013 21:31

^^^ The Infantry Div of Strike Corps have been converted into RAPID...
to the best of my knowledge there is nothing called RAMID... ORBAT gurus may know better... RAMID was just a concept and never went anywhere... let us wait and watch how the new Strike Corps shapes up...even here I am not sure it is going to be designated as a Mountain Strike Corps?!?!?

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 01 Jan 2014 08:46

Today, at Ranchi, the designate corp commander hoisted the flag. Welcome India's newest Mountain Corps.

uddu
BRFite
Posts: 1848
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby uddu » 01 Jan 2014 11:35

:eek:

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18669
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 01 Jan 2014 19:49

Beautiful!!

nelson
BRFite
Posts: 988
Joined: 02 Mar 2008 21:10

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 01 Jan 2014 21:06

PARTICIPATE IN ARMY DAY PAINTING COMPETITION 2014

http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/FormTempl ... 2B/rvPbQ==

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Jan 2014 00:57

chackojoseph wrote:Today, at Ranchi, the designate corp commander hoisted the flag. Welcome India's newest Mountain Corps.

Chacko Chetta, can you confirm if the new Corps is to be based in Ranchi or Pannagarh.. It is comfuding... May be deliberate... Is the number confirmed to be XVII.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Jan 2014 01:03

^^^ very giod quality Publicity Video for Army day 2014.. A must see for Jingos. It will be great if someone downloadsan HD version of this...

chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 02 Jan 2014 08:07

AFIK, it will be based in Pannagarh. It can be raised in Ranchi or elsewhere, there is no issue. It has already been christened XVII Corps.

nelson
BRFite
Posts: 988
Joined: 02 Mar 2008 21:10

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 02 Jan 2014 15:14

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140102/nation.htm#10
Mountain strike corps, its1st division raised
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, January 1
The mountain strike corps, aimed at countering China, was formally raised by holding a "flag hoisting" ceremony at Ranchi today. The headquarters of 59 Division, under the Corps, was also raised simultaneously this morning. The second Division, 72, will be raised at Pathankot later.

This is the first corps to be raised since the 9 Corps was raised at Yol, near Dharamsala, in 2005.

It would take another 10 months to complete staffing and equipping of the 59 Division that would get already established regiments, sources said. The regiments would be replenished with new recruits as this corps would lead to force accretion and not draw from existing forces.

Instructions have already been issued for moving of regiments. Each of the Divisions will have four brigades and a strength of around 30,000 each, including infantry, signals, artillery, engineers, armoured and supply, besides helicopters. The existing three strike corps at Ambala, Mathura and Bhopal have around 80,000 troops each.

The CCS cleared the corps on July 17, allocating Rs 64,000 crore to be spent over the next six-seven years.

Ranchi is the temporary headquarters. The corps and the division will have their headquarters at Panagarh in West Bengal. The IAF special operations aircraft, C-130 J Super Hercules, will also be based there.

Maj Gen Raymond Norohna has been designated as the first GoC of the corps that has been named the 17 Strike Corps. Normally a strike corps is headed by a Lieut General rank official. Maj Gen Norohna is slated for promotion as Lieut General and the file for his appointment along with the promotions of 14 other Major Generals is pending with the appointments committee of the Cabinet.

The board for promotion was conducted on November 13 and since then the file has been moving between the Ministry of Defence and the Army over some queries.

First since 2005

* This is the first corps to be raised since the 9 Corps was raised at Yol, near Dharamsala, in 2005

* It will take another 10 months to complete staffing and equipping of the 59 Division that will get already established regiments

* The second Division, 72, will be raised at Pathankot later

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7702
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 02 Jan 2014 15:42

^^^Lungi dance moment!!!

Well, this raising again proves that there is no point in second guessing the IA when it comes to raising and numbering of new formations.

Second division will be raised in Pathankot? :eek: That is ~1,800 kms from Panagarh. And why Pathankot of all the places?

So, are we looking at distributed deployment with division and Corps HQ moving either ways depending upon who tries to act Rambo?

After all, Pathankot is a major rail head and junction and with once the Udhampur-Srinagar-Baramula rail link is ready, the formation can be inducted into valley as well (if required) in pretty quick time. On the other hand, after 16 Corps was split, it was felt that it requires one additional reserve division. And I would not be surprised if 72 Division becomes dual tasked as reserve for 16 Corps.

Too many possibilities and too little information!!!

But then, this abdul did talk about location of MSC being a hint towards west and eastern deployment flexibility... :P It is not entirely a matter of coincidence that Panagarh sits on main electrified trunk line of Indian railway. :mrgreen:

Another factoid - IA is filling the 50s and 70s series to number new divisions. Earlier raised division are 56 Mountain Division (III Corps) and 71 Mountain Division (IV Corps). 57 Mountain Division already exists (III Corps). And now we have the 59 and 72 Mountain Divisions. Somebody ask IA why 58 was not used instead of 59? But that is IA for you.

And four brigades to a division is a pretty big number - mountains are anti-thesis of effective command and control. I hope it is 3 x mountain bdes + 1 x Aviation Bde.

All in all, fun and games onlee!!!

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 02 Jan 2014 16:09

I think he was GOC 8 Div IIRC, could be otherwise. So all this being a 3 div formation was fog onlee...Ranchi would be a raising station, Pathankot is very very interesting.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nachiket » 02 Jan 2014 17:59

rohitvats wrote:And four brigades to a division is a pretty big number - mountains are anti-thesis of effective command and control. I hope it is 3 x mountain bdes + 1 x Aviation Bde.

Sorry if this sounds noobish, but I am a complete noob regarding Orbat. How will they distribute the artillery? Will some of the divisions have one artillery brigade along with 3 regular light infantry brigades (I say "light" to mean kitted out to operate in mountainous areas)? Or will there be a separate all-artillery division? Or just a small bunch of Independent Artillery brigades to be distributed as the situation demands during wartime?

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7702
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 02 Jan 2014 18:17

nachiket wrote: Sorry if this sounds noobish, but I am a complete noob regarding Orbat. How will they distribute the artillery? Will some of the divisions have one artillery brigade along with 3 regular light infantry brigades (I say "light" to mean kitted out to operate in mountainous areas)? Or will there be a separate all-artillery division? Or just a small bunch of Independent Artillery brigades to be distributed as the situation demands during wartime?


At a nominal rate of 1 x Oban/Isle of Jura Single Malt (1 litre bottle, please), I can volunteer to teach you everything I know about Orbat :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Jokes apart - each division has integral artillery brigade which consists of 5 x artillery regiments. The mix consists of medium regiments (gun caliber >105mm but up to 155mm) and Field Regiments ( 105mm caliber). It used to be 1 x Medium Regiment + 3 x Field Regiments + 1 x Light Regiment for infantry divisions earlier. Light regiment are/were equipped with 120mm mortars (2 x batteries @ 6 mortars each). But IA has converted a large number of Field Regiments into Medium Regiments - courtesy the mass purchase of 130mm M-46 gun on dissolution of USSR at lesser than throw-away prices. Similarly, IMO Light Regiments have also gone down.

Coming to the division at hand - expect them to have a mix of 130/155mm caliber medium regiments + 105mm Field Regiments + Light Regiment. In addition, each division has Surveillance and Target Acquisition (SATA) Battery which operates the fire-finder radars and in some cases, the UAV troop as well.

The Corps is likely to have Independent Artillery Bde - this reports directly to Corps HQ and is allotted as per requirement. Generally each Corps has 1 x (I) Artillery Bde.

Each of IA's three Strike Corps is equipped with an Artillery Division - these Corps may/may not have (I) artillery bde reporting to Corps HQ for obvious reasons. Chances are that the MSC will also have an integral artillery division. This is a pretty big formation and consists of a mix of Gun, Tube and Missile Artillery.

At the expense of blowing my own trumpet, you can read about artillery divisions in IA here:

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/artillery-divisions-in-indian-army.html
http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2012/12/artillery-divisions-in-indian-army_22.html

Hope this helps!

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7227
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nachiket » 02 Jan 2014 18:45

^^Thanks. So when you say "3 x mountain bdes + 1 x Aviation Bde" one of those mountain brigades will necessarily have to be an artillery brigade. I assumed "mountain brigade" to mean infantry.

I'll go through your blog as well.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7702
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 02 Jan 2014 18:50

nachiket wrote:^^Thanks. So when you say "3 x mountain bdes + 1 x Aviation Bde" one of those mountain brigades will necessarily have to be an artillery brigade. I assumed "mountain brigade" to mean infantry.

I'll go through your blog as well.


Nope.

3 x mountain bdes - each with 3 x infantry battalions. Mountain bde is an infantry bde optimized for mountain warfare.
1 x Aviation Bde - no idea what it would consist of but most likely 1 x ALH Squadron + 1 x WSI Dhruv Squadron/LCH + 1 x Chetak/Cheetah Helicopter.

Artillery bde is in addition to these bdes.

Avik
BRFite
Posts: 193
Joined: 06 Oct 2009 00:16

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Avik » 02 Jan 2014 19:11

Rohit- I have a feeling that by establishing the 72 div in Pathankot, the IA is actually establishing the genesis of the Northern Command MSC. Remember the talk has been of having two separate MSCs- one for the East and one for the North. So, while the current Government sanction is for just one MSC, in time, the sanction for the second MSC will come, which will probably be HQed in Pathankot. The current MSC is of course for the East, with one division already under raising. I am assuming the raising of the 59 div will be followed by other bdes and divs in the NE and North Bengal and Bihar.
The prospected location of 72 div in Pathankot is interesting as it serves multiple purposes- reinforce 16 or 9 Corps as required, or move the div to J&K for ops in Kashmir or Ladakh or orient it for ops in Himachal against China. One could also speculate that IA may bring 72 and 6 divs (!!) under a new Corps HQ as the North Com MSC. Lots of interesting possibilities ...lets see how this pans out...

SandeepS
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 40
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 02:34
Location: Cuckoo-land

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SandeepS » 02 Jan 2014 23:05

Avik wrote:...
The prospected location of 72 div in Pathankot is interesting as it serves multiple purposes- reinforce 16 or 9 Corps as required, or move the div to J&K for ops in Kashmir or Ladakh or orient it for ops in Himachal against China...


Avik, I honestly commend your lateral thinking but if you go a step further in terms of the details of such versatile deployment you will see how soon it becomes difficult to implement on the ground. If you have tasking coming from two different Corp HQ, you have to train as per their ORBAT, if you are going to be deployed in Kashmir then depending on the role the div has to be oriented accordingly, or if it goes to Ladakh what will be its eqpt vs. eqpt required for deployment against China. If you even take simpler aspects like admin, it will drive the formation HQs nuts just trying to figure out what they are supposed to do and who is authorised to sign-off their triplicate/quadruplicate forms. I'm afraid these things cannot be wished away when considering a new raising. Now if you take a slightly more complex topic e.g. primary/secondary/alternate gun-positions for integral arty assets (not to speak of any detachments) or POL locations all over Kashmir/Ladakh/HP or why not in NE given that its sitting on electrified railway, (err...you cannot piggy-back on existing formations for all of them, for some but not all) then you can see why having such versatility might to lead to sub-optimal performance by the div in its wide AOR. I guess Div Cdr & SOs will be putting in serious amount of frequent flying miles with his AAC detachment.

Avik
BRFite
Posts: 193
Joined: 06 Oct 2009 00:16

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Avik » 03 Jan 2014 05:55

Sandeep - Divisions dont move with their full POL and wartime stores. Those are usually stored at ammo and POL dumps on a formation's probable axes of advance. Also, having single axes of advance for strike formations reduces their efficacy as the enemy will have pre-countered the possible axes. Strike divisions by nature have the option of deploying through multiple fronts- thats what makes them strike formations. Pathankot is an interesting KLP as this was the location where I Corps was supposed to move in any showdown wrt Pak pre-Parakram. During Parakram, III Corps was deployed as a higher level formation in the general area since I Corps was one of the prongs of the trident in Raj.
Coming to the 17 Corps and 59 and 72 Div raisings, eventually, I visualize, 72 Div being the kernel for a North Comm MSC, while the East Comm MSC is now 17 Corps

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7702
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jan 2014 09:37

SandeepS wrote: Avik, I honestly commend your lateral thinking but if you go a step further in terms of the details of such versatile deployment you will see how soon it becomes difficult to implement on the ground. If you have tasking coming from two different Corp HQ, you have to train as per their ORBAT, if you are going to be deployed in Kashmir then depending on the role the div has to be oriented accordingly, or if it goes to Ladakh what will be its eqpt vs. eqpt required for deployment against China. If you even take simpler aspects like admin, it will drive the formation HQs nuts just trying to figure out what they are supposed to do and who is authorised to sign-off their triplicate/quadruplicate forms. I'm afraid these things cannot be wished away when considering a new raising. Now if you take a slightly more complex topic e.g. primary/secondary/alternate gun-positions for integral arty assets (not to speak of any detachments) or POL locations all over Kashmir/Ladakh/HP or why not in NE given that its sitting on electrified railway, (err...you cannot piggy-back on existing formations for all of them, for some but not all) then you can see why having such versatility might to lead to sub-optimal performance by the div in its wide AOR. I guess Div Cdr & SOs will be putting in serious amount of frequent flying miles with his AAC detachment.


SandeepS - while you raise pertinent points, we need to understand that this aspect of divisions being dual tasked is not something new when it comes to IA. While what IA did with respect to 1 Corps and 33 Armored Division in Operation Parakaram was quite drastic, the movement of divisions generally is not.

Case in point is 6 Mountain Division based in Bareilly - this is AHQ reserve which is literally triple tasked for Uttarakhand-Chicken's Neck-Kashmir Sector.

During Kargil, this Division was initially planned to undertake what 8 Mountain Division finally did - subsequently, it was sitting south of Zoji La in Sonamarg during the conflict for offensive operations. Similarly, during Operation Parakaram, it was in Chicken's Neck area and did move around a bit. During Operation Trident in 1987, the division was actually airlifted to Ladakh for attack on POK.

Further, we moved 2.5 Divisions from NE along with a Corps HQ during Operation Parakaram. If memory serves me right, one of the mountain divisions from 33 Corps went to desert sector. Between December 2001 and Mid 2002, IA had enough time to move and 'reorient' these divisions for their role in plains.

So, it all depends upon tasking and orientation from the word go. And how the POL and other stores are stocked in advance. As it is, in most cases, the difference between a Infantry Division and Mountain Division is in scale of equipment. And some type of equipment. We actually need to thank General PP Kumaramangalam for this - he ensured that we have a basic template for a division and then use modification to this basic template when using the formation for specialized task. So, a Mountain Division is Modification 'M' to basic Infantry Division template.

With formation of South Western Command and 1 Corps being placed under it (along with 10 Corps), it is my assumption that IA will need an offensive formation in Gurdaspur-Pathankot-Jammu axis. We don't have counter in literal sense for PA's Army Reserve North. And placing 72 Division in Pathankot could serve the purpose - and if foresee the Corps HQ with 59 Mountain Division moving west in case of a shooting match.

Given the amount likely to be spent in raising this Corps, I expect it to be unlike anything the sub-continent has seen so far.

Shrinivasan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Aug 2009 19:20
Location: Gateway Arch
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Shrinivasan » 03 Jan 2014 11:45

^^^Well said Rohit, this new Div in Pathankot could also form the nucleus of an IBG...
IA has surely not dumped Cold Start... May be give it a new name... Umpteen exercises have been conducted in NC, WC and SWC to hone our mobilization tactics...

For all we know it could be 2 mangos with 1 stone, hence the huge bill and sticker shock for MSC(s)

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7702
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jan 2014 13:21

It is my opinion that current IBG consists of an (I) Armored Bde and RAPID.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5559
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vishvak » 03 Jan 2014 14:41

I expect it to be unlike anything..

Great news though this will get better with more mountain strike corps to learn best practices is what can happen over time.

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 03 Jan 2014 15:12

Cold Start is primarily center's around Combined Arms Operations with a mechanised nucleus to provide it the mobility and sustainment for local area offences. They can additionally perform in a Counter Penetration role.

Avik,
IIRC, they did so for elements of 57 & 27 Div during 2002. However 3 Corps has a bulk of its formations fully committed to Op Rhino, unlikely it would be called on to move again especially with the bulk of CPF's unable to takeover the load like they did so earlier due to Op Greenhunt.

So much so, Dinjan based 2 Div almost exclusively runs in the CI Ops in Upper Assam additionally holds an Assam Rifles Sector and come monsoon season has to be almost completely Air-Maintained..57 Div is with its 4 Brigades looks after CI ops though to a lesser extent but with a much larger AoR in Nagaland/Manipur/Mizoram.

On a sidenote, much has been said about the ''Karen Incursions''. Even though on a different axis and north of the Shamsabari Range, this gallery would help guys have a fair judgement of the kind of terrain challenges thrown up and how good they can be at swallowing infantry formations enmasse.

Link

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7702
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jan 2014 16:05

^^^I think you would know this that III Corps now commands 2 Mountain Division along with 57 and 56 MD.

vaibhav.n
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 575
Joined: 23 Mar 2010 21:47

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 03 Jan 2014 18:08

rohitvats wrote:^^^I think you would know this that III Corps now commands 2 Mountain Division along with 57 and 56 MD.


Yes, HQ 3 Corps shifted with some elements or did they shift lock stock and barrel. I think 3 Corps controls some Assam Rifles Sectors as well. Didnt 27 Div shift as well?....

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 03 Jan 2014 18:14

is it confirmed then polish anders light tank is out and T-90 regiments + pinaka + BM21 + M777 it is going to be for the MSRs?

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7702
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jan 2014 20:40

vaibhav.n wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^I think you would know this that III Corps now commands 2 Mountain Division along with 57 and 56 MD.


Yes, HQ 3 Corps shifted with some elements or did they shift lock stock and barrel. I think 3 Corps controls some Assam Rifles Sectors as well. Didnt 27 Div shift as well?....


What I meant to say was that there has been reorganization of forces under 4 Corps and 3 Corps. 2 MD has been moved from 4 Corps to 3 Corps. 3 Corps now has 2, 56 and 57 MD. 4 Corps has 5, 21 and 71 MD. So, there is a reorganization and rationalization of AOR between 3 and 4 Corps.

rajatmisra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 59
Joined: 05 Feb 2010 10:16

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rajatmisra » 04 Jan 2014 11:11

Can someone explain how many corps do we have, both holding and strike, and how new ones are numbered? Numbering seems to be quite random to a layman like myself.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7702
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 04 Jan 2014 11:25

rajatmisra wrote:Can someone explain how many corps do we have, both holding and strike, and how new ones are numbered? Numbering seems to be quite random to a layman like myself.


Here you go:

1. Northern Command (Udhampur)- 14 Corps (Leh), 15 Corps (Srinagar), 16 Corps (Nagrota)
2. Western Command (Chandimandir) - 9 Corps (Yol), 11 Corps (Jalandhar), 2 Strike Corps (Ambala)
3. South Western Command (Jaipur) - 1 Strike Corps (Mathura), 10 Corps (Bhatinda)
4. Southern Command (Pune) - 12 Corps (Jodhpur), 21 Strike Corps (Bhopal)
5. Eastern Command (Kolkata) - 33 Corps (Siliguri), 4 Corps (Tejpur), 3 Corps (Dimapur), 17 Mountain Strike Corps (Panagarh-under raising)

- 6 Mountain Division and 50 (I) Parachute Bde are Army HQ Reserve. (I) - stands for Independent.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests