Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 18 Nov 2013 11:44

Rohit,

Isnt 23 Div Eastern Command Reserve, has it gone to 1 Corps and replaced 6 Div or is it dual tasked?

I am not sure i have my strike Corps right, what is it...

I Corps: 33 Div, 4 Div, 6 Div;
II Corps: 1 Div, 14 Div, 22 Div
XXI Corps: 31 Div, 36 Div, 54 Div

Another interesting thing i came to know about R&S Battalions, they are now of two kinds of them. Did some searching, preety much points in that direction, Apparently, Armd Divs do not have R&S Battalions. However, seems unlikely for them to only depend upon the Bde Recce Sqn for that. Can you corroborate.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 18 Nov 2013 12:49

Yes that's the strike corps as far as I know. Very minor nomenclature point if I may. When you say just Div it means Infantry Div. You usually say Mountain Div , Armd Div, RAPID and Arty Div in other cases. So its 6 Mtn Div not 6 Div. And 1 Armd Div and 14 RAPID. What about Arty DiVs? Don't they fall under the strike corps or are they independent (Command HQ) ? Rohit?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Nov 2013 18:53

vaibhav.n wrote:Rohit,

Isnt 23 Div Eastern Command Reserve, has it gone to 1 Corps and replaced 6 Div or is it dual tasked?

I am not sure i have my strike Corps right, what is it...

I Corps: 33 Div, 4 Div, 6 Div;
II Corps: 1 Div, 14 Div, 22 Div
XXI Corps: 31 Div, 36 Div, 54 Div

Aha! The famous question of 23 Infantry Division. It has foxed many an armchair analysts and orbat junkies like me...However, God helps its followers in mysterious ways!. Check this out:

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 815_1.html

Army Chief Gen. Bikram Singh today visited Jharkhand capital Ranchi to review the operational preparedness of the Cockerel Division based there.

At the formation, which is under the Jaipur-based South Western Command, Lt Gen. Gyan Bhushan was also present and the Cockerel Division commander briefed Singh about its level of preparedness.

SW Command has the 1 Corps and 10 Corps under it and it is but logical that 23 Division be part of 1 Corps....Some Sherlock kinda reasoning there

6 Mountain Division is Army HQ reserve and does not come under any Corps HQ. It is triple tasked (at least was) - Chicken's Neck, Sonamarg (was there in 1999 posed for offensive action in POK) and Uttarakhand-Tibet border.

So, the summary is as follows:

1 Corps: 33 Armored Division + 4 RAPID + 23 ID + 42 Artillery Division
2 Corps: 1 Armored Division + 14 RAPID + 22 ID + 40 Artillery Division
21 Corps: 31 Armored Division + 36 RAPID + 54 ID + 41 Artillery Division

Another interesting thing i came to know about R&S Battalions, they are now of two kinds of them. Did some searching, preety much points in that direction, Apparently, Armd Divs do not have R&S Battalions. However, seems unlikely for them to only depend upon the Bde Recce Sqn for that. Can you corroborate.

AFAIK, Armored Divisions never had R&S Battalions; they were supposed to Division Reconnaissance Battalions which I think never materialized. R&S were part of RAPIDs to begin with.

We need to discuss this R&S stuff - will drop an email.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Nov 2013 19:05

Another mystery formation sign for BRFites to pour over. Check the one is foreground on right hand side:

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Nov 2013 19:21

could it be an early variant of agnibaaz ?
although, that's central command sign, so likely something else.

btw, you mean XXI corps above, in stead of 3 corps.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 18 Nov 2013 19:32

Cockerel , Terrier ?
What's the reason behind naming units after tame birds and small dogs ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Nov 2013 20:06

BR lists it as fighting cock. terrier ??

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Nov 2013 20:29

Rahul M wrote:could it be an early variant of agnibaaz ?
although, that's central command sign, so likely something else.

btw, you mean XXI corps above, in stead of 3 corps.

That picture is from 2007 and the ceremony was held at Officer Training School (OTS), AMC Center and School, Lucknow. Captain being awarded the trophy is from Army Dental Corps; it is for a course which all doctors undertake post their MBBS (either from AFMC or direct entry into IA). This is their first true military training.

The officer is sporting badge of the formation to which he would have been posted on completion of the course.

The blue background of the badge is suggestive of Artillery connection - all other artillery division badges have similar blue colored background.

PS: Yes, it is 21 Corps....Mods business taking toll on old brain cells.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 18 Nov 2013 20:31

I've seen bases with "Something something Terriers" in north. Couldn't take pictures due to obvious reasons.

These creatures hardly inspire any confidence as fighters.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Nov 2013 20:51

terriers are territorial army units, i suppose. they are all over the country, like Kovai Terriers

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Nov 2013 21:26

X-Post....

brihaspati wrote:On CD's and their tendency to change over time. Whether it is the INC or....

Under Army arrest for 16 months, TSD operative seeks bail
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/under ... /1185781/0
An Army jawan belonging to the controversial intelligence unit set up by General VK Singh has approached a military court for bail contending he has been under "illegal" arrest for the last 16 months on basis of "false" charges of trying to sell classified information.

Admitting the plea filed by Havildar Sham Das D, the Principal Bench of the Armed Forces Tribunal has asked the Army to file a reply in the matter. Contending that his arrest from June 8 last year was "most wrongful and arbitrary" on basis of false allegations levelled against him by officials of Department of Revenue Intelligence (DRI), the Havildar claimed he is being "implicated" in the charge of sharing classified information with some unknown person who was source of the DRI.

The jawan has been facing a Court of Inquiry (CoI) since June 11 last year on charges of trying to sell classified information in a CD and a pen drive to some unknown person.

In his plea filed through his counsel Maj S S Pandey, the jawan claimed that he was put under close arrest with "sole aim of putting him under undue pressure to confess to such allegation which were totally wrong and also to implicate others in the process."

He claimed that during the CoI, it has come out that the CD was manipulated.

"The DRI Official Assistant Director Rahul R who came to depose in the CoI not only refused to divulge the name of the source whom he had allegedly handed over the said CD, but abruptly left the CoI without signing his statement probably due to lack of any justification about the discrepancy in the CDs for which he had no answer and role of DRI officials was about to get exposed," he claimed.

The former TSD operative urged the court to quash the Army order to put him under arrest and to grant him bail. The petitioner said he has not been allowed to meet even his family members including his wife for the last 16 months even after the CoI was completed on October 14. The jawan is "a victim of circumstances and there are enough material on record to show that he has been wrongly implicated by the DRI officials..."

The TSD, which was set up during the tenure of Army Chief Gen VK Singh, has been in controversy over the alleged use of off-the-air-interceptors to illegally monitor conversations of the top defence brass during the height of the age row. The unit was made defunct soon after the taking over of the present Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh and a Board of Officers was set up by him to look into its functioning.

The unit has also been accused by an Army report of making attempts to destabilise the Jammu and Kashmir government and carrying out unauthorised operations in and outside India.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Nov 2013 23:08

a pit bull is also a terrier

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 18 Nov 2013 23:19

terriers as a breed are active, fearless and tenacious. that's the reason they've been bred with other breeds like bulldogs to make fighting breeds.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Nov 2013 00:07

jamwal wrote:Cockerel , Terrier ?
What's the reason behind naming units after tame birds and small dogs ?

jamwal, You should look up a dictionary or atleast google it. A Cockerel is a Rooster.

The name is chosen like a fighting game cock which doesn't yeild. Either wins or dies.

So where did the terrier come from?

Cocker spaniel?

And all those derailing posts followed you!!!

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 19 Nov 2013 08:52

Thanks!!

23 div is indeed far out from their AOR. This business of the Mountain Strike Corps being a 3 Div formation is baffling. They could have easily reinforced 14 Corps instead. I get the feeling this is a Reserve Corps.

rohitvats wrote:AFAIK, Armored Divisions never had R&S Battalions; they were supposed to Division Reconnaissance Battalions which I think never materialized. R&S were part of RAPIDs to begin with.

We need to discuss this R&S stuff - will drop an email.

Yes, IIRC they wanted to convert some Armoured Regiments into that US Cavalry role to act as screens for heavier units.

I supposed since that did not happen they used the R&S Battalions in that role. This means we have some vanilla Inf Div's with R&S Battalions probably the Pivot ones to start their break-in ops due to the robust fixed defences the other side has employed.

PS: You can mail me.

Arjunn · Post by **Arjunn** » 19 Nov 2013 12:11

ramana wrote:
jamwal wrote:Cockerel , Terrier ?
What's the reason behind naming units after tame birds and small dogs ?

jamwal, You should look up a dictionary or atleast google it. A Cockerel is a Rooster.

The name is chosen like a fighting game cock which doesn't yeild. Either wins or dies.

So where did the terrier come from?

Cocker spaniel?

And all those derailing posts followed you!!!

Look up pit bull terrier. Similar to the fighting game cock; does not yield. Look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Nov 2013 12:52

Don't you think that someone with access to internet would have access to dictionary ?

Look at this search result for images of terriers.
3 friends of mine had dogs like these. Shiver in dhoti moment onlee.

Spirit of a fighting cock,
Maybe it's a good idea. Who am I to judge !

Isn't this forum about discussing, sharing information and asking questions ? I admit it's not very chi-chi high level analysis but had no idea that asking questions about nomenclature of military units can be classified as "derailing posts".

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Nov 2013 17:41

terrier in this case is simply a shortened form of territorial army. it has nothing to do with the dog. this is a continuation from BIA, AFAIK in BA too it is terriers.

fighting cock is a symbol of virility and macho in many cultures, it is the national symbol of france for example.
wiki says about 23 ID : "The division was raised on 1 January 1942, at Jhansi in Central India. Its badge was a red fighting cock on a yellow circle. (The animal was chosen by Major General Reginald Savory, the division's first commander, as one which would offend neither the Moslem nor Hindu soldiers of the division."

military units are not always given aggressive names, chinar corps, featherweights are examples.

Arjunn · Post by **Arjunn** » 19 Nov 2013 18:23

Off topic. No intention whatsoever to offend anyone here. Kindly take it in the right spirit.

Dear Jamwal ji as you pointed out that you had a dhoti shiver moment on seeing the pictures of those cute little dogs in the link that you have provided, I in all sincerity would recommend that you should think twice about participating in a hard talking military forum. Your delicate sensibilities require a more appropriate forum where dhoti shivering and other nasty discolourations of the pristine whiteness of your dhoti can be circumvented when presented with images other than of cute little dogs. All the best.

and yet such declarations are often followed by deeply offensive comments.

I would OTOH recommend that you learn how to be civil in behaviour. a lesson in BR speak is also needed.

just FYI, the person you were referring to has been on solo treks to some of the most inhospitable places in this country.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Nov 2013 20:49

in the BA they are now known as "TA's"
and are an increasingly larger component of the fighting strength. in particular many specialist functions have gone to TA units - where part timers can perform a complex but infrequently needed role based on specific training, without being on the full time cost structure

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 19 Nov 2013 21:10

So 17 Corps it is. But the HQ is being reported as Panagarh instead of Ranchi as it is being discussed here...
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 051747.cms

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 19 Nov 2013 22:03

while raising of the corps, it will be on Jharkhand. once fully raised it will be based in panagarh..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Nov 2013 22:11

read this along with the above news.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/army- ... l/1196625/

The Army Monday sought land from West Bengal government to set up two military and air force stations in north Bengal to fortify country's defence in the eastern sector.

The army officials, during the annual civil-military liaison meeting at Nabanna in Howrah, asked the state government for 750 acres of land at Dandim in Jalpaiguri for an Air Force station and 1,000 acres in Kalimpong for military station.

While government delegation was led by Chief Secretary Sanjay Mitra, the army was represented by GOC Bengal Area, Lt Gen AK Choudhary. Later, a press release of the army said, a joint inspection would soon be carried out to identify feasibility of land in North Bengal.

"While the strategic or operational necessity was not debated or discussed, the new land acquisition procedures will be adhered to," the release said.

The army also sought land for establishing a Sainik School at Darjeeling. The Chief Secretary assured the army delegation that the matter was under consideration and a meeting would soon be held between the state government, Union home ministry and the local authorities.

"To enable the existing Sainik School (in Purulia) to get its due from both the Sainik School Society under MoD and the state government, a draft memorandum has been sent to the state government for its consent," the press release further said.''

The army also sought land for NCC Directorate (West Bengal & Sikkim) at Bamchandaipur in lieu of land at Sadhanpur, Burdwan, and another 700 sq yds to set up proper Ex-servicemen Contributory Health Scheme (ECHS) Polyclinics across state.

It was decided that for the time being the government won't shift camps in the Maidan area for sadhus coming for the annual Ganga Sagar yatra. The army is opposed to the camps.

The state government, meanwhile, agreed to increase the financial assistance to World War-II veterans, war widows and gallantry award winners from the state. "The Chief Secretary has agreed to bring it at par with other states," the army said.

The GOC said that this year all vacancies including the ones in technical cadre had been filled up by the youth from the state. Currently, West Bengal has a 7.81 per cent representation in the armed forces, which is substantial, the GOC said.

Earlier, as the meeting began, the Chief Secretary thanked the army on behalf of the administration for rendering timely assistance in the recent river embankment breach in East Midinapore.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Nov 2013 22:19

Lalmohan wrote:in the BA they are now known as "TA's"
and are an increasingly larger component of the fighting strength. in particular many specialist functions have gone to TA units - where part timers can perform a complex but infrequently needed role based on specific training, without being on the full time cost structure

terriers is still used ?
e.g
http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/ca ... -1-1930545

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Nov 2013 22:54

seems that it is
i used to know a guy who was in the TA (explosives expert) - never heard him use that term

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Nov 2013 00:34

Got my copy of General VK Singh's autobiography. Been leafing through it. Good experience so far.

Here is interesting anecdote during his Ranger course:

' My name is Singh,' I said to Ranger Sergeant Peabody, ' it's against my religion to remove all my hair.'

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Nov 2013 07:13

India steps up boat patrols on Ladakh lake after Chinese intrusions

The Pangong Tso Lake is now witnessing a marked change in India's approach towards China, with New Delhi upping the ante by carrying out regular boat patrols in the water body in Ladakh where the Chinese had earlier resorted to aggressive intrusions.

In a series of protests over the past few weeks, Beijing has complained that the Indian Army was resorting to aggressive patrols - coming too close to the Chinese boats and engaging them.

Besides handing over protest notes at the border personnel meeting, the Chinese have also conveyed the message at diplomatic level.
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Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 20 Nov 2013 10:16

Army gets final nod to deploy 80,000 troops along China border

The ball has been set rolling for the Army to raise a new mountain "strike" corps with two "independent" infantry brigades and two "independent" armoured brigades, totalling over 80,000 soldiers, along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China.

The new formation to be called 17 Corps, along with its infrastructure, will come up over seven years at a cost of around Rs 90,000 crore. "Officers and soldiers are already being earmarked for posting to the new corps,"

said an official.

The new corps, with two specialized high-altitude divisions for "rapid reaction force capability in mountains", will add to all this. This will give India, which for long has focused on the land borders with Pakistan, some offensive teeth against China as well.

-Ankit

srai · Post by **srai** » 21 Nov 2013 05:53

Ankit Desai wrote:Army gets final nod to deploy 80,000 troops along China border

The ball has been set rolling for the Army to raise a new mountain "strike" corps with two "independent" infantry brigades and two "independent" armoured brigades, totalling over 80,000 soldiers, along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) with China.

The new formation to be called 17 Corps, along with its infrastructure, will come up over seven years at a cost of around Rs 90,000 crore. "Officers and soldiers are already being earmarked for posting to the new corps,"
said an official.

The new corps, with two specialized high-altitude divisions for "rapid reaction force capability in mountains", will add to all this. This will give India, which for long has focused on the land borders with Pakistan, some offensive teeth against China as well.
-Ankit

...
With additional armoured regiments and infantry units based in Ladakh, Sikkim and Uttarakhand, the new mountain corps will for the first time give India the capability to also launch a counter-offensive into Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) in the event of a Chinese attack.
...

From the article, it seems that the new mountain "strike" corps's independent brigades will go to Ladakh (1 armoured brigade - various sources have mentioned), Sikkim (1 armoured brigade - various sources have mentioned) and Uttarakhand (2 infantry brigade?). Two specialized high-altitude divisions will be located in Arunachal Pradesh and Assam.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Nov 2013 14:10

The story about the Corps is still developing...need to wait for full picture to emerge.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 21 Nov 2013 15:54

The ball has been set rolling for the Army to raise a new mountain "strike" corps with two "independent" infantry brigades and two "independent" armoured brigades, totalling over 80,000 soldiers,

This part itself is just so, so wrong...

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 21 Nov 2013 19:20

Govt surrenders to pakistan on Kargil hero

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Nov 2013 19:30

RajitO wrote:
The ball has been set rolling for the Army to raise a new mountain "strike" corps with two "independent" infantry brigades and two "independent" armoured brigades, totalling over 80,000 soldiers,
This part itself is just so, so wrong...

not surprising. rajat pandit has little idea what those terms mean.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 21 Nov 2013 20:35

Kargil was fought within J&K so what has MEA got to do with it. Pukis not agreeing for war crimes is understood.

International Court of Justice on any issue is a decision which falls within the executive mandate of the government.

So executive branch has to vet first issue of torture and killing within Indian borders, when evidence including video evidence is available! And ICJ can't be referred to because torture and killing within Indian borders during war will affect bilateral relations.

After attacking India, pakis object to all this as well! What a neighbor!

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Nov 2013 00:24

The neighbour is what it is. But what a government. Makes me feel like throwing up !

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Nov 2013 00:29

On a more positive note will be posting a couple of anecdotes (one from Op Pawan and the other from an army day parade in the early 90s) in the mil humour thread. Real episodes. Assam Regt stars in both of them. Hilarious.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Nov 2013 07:11

Rahul M wrote:[quote="RajitO"
The ball has been set rolling for the Army to raise a new mountain "strike" corps with two "independent" infantry brigades and two "independent" armoured brigades, totalling over 80,000 soldiers,
This part itself is just so, so wrong.../quote]
not surprising. rajat pandit has little idea what those terms mean.

Yes that sentence itself is misleading. Later in his article, he mentions 2 specialised high-altitude divisions as part of the corps. Taken all, this is what the new mountain strike corps will have:

2 x specialised high-altitude divisions (typically 10,000–15,000 each)
2 x independent infantry brigades (typically 3,000–5,000 troops each)
2 x independent armoured brigades (typically 3,000–5,000 troops each)

When typical manpower strength is added up, it comes to between 32,000 to 50,000 troops total for the new strike corps. Rajat Pandit may have mistakenly counted the two other mountain divisions that were raised in the NE recently.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 22 Nov 2013 08:39

Damn it. we need airborne brigades on the mountainous chinese border. Quick reaction is pertinent to modern day combat.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Nov 2013 09:05

The (I) Armed Bde for Ladakh and Sikkim and (I) Mountain Bdes will NOT be part of MSC. They are going to be part of formations (Corps) in these respective areas. The news report mixes and matches unrelated information.

member_26535 · Post by **member_26535** » 23 Nov 2013 19:34

Guru Rohit ji.. While the picture is still sketchy based on incomplete reports, whats your educated speculation on

1 ) what do we mean by " Specialised " divisions
2) Equipment likely to be part of the MSC
3) Airborne elements if any
4) How different are these expected to be from the other 2 divisions raised in the last 2-3 years in the eastern theater

Sorry If I have missed any post in the past on this