Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 10 Jan 2013 08:24

Article seems to clear a few things:
Finally, on January 6, matters came to a head. Following a low-grade exchange of fire that night, 19 Infantry Division commander Gulab Singh Rawat sought and obtained permission for aggressive action against the Pakistani position from where his troops were being targeted.

Pakistan insists its post, Sawan Patra, was raided by Indian troops.


there was fierce fighting Karnah, some 140 kilometres from Srinagar after two Indian soldiers were beheaded in an attack on a forward position by a Border Action Team. Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers and, by the account of one military official, which The Hindu could not corroborate independently, beheaded two.


Am guessing the incident referred to is here:
Soon After Indo-Pak Talks, Pakistan's Border Area Team (BAT) Behead Indian Soldiers In Kupwara's 28 Div !!

Since there was a SF response to the earlier one, am guessing that every TSPA Ghazi posted at the LoC will now be shivering in his brown khaki hoping that his turn doesnt come to meet his 72 when the inevitable SF raid happens after this latest incident.

I would still prefer the intruding party be identified using our sources and that particular unit/team be targetted instead of randomly attacking any TSPA post.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Anand K » 10 Jan 2013 08:41

They would be expecting low key infantry or spec op raids and will keep their guard up for a while. With the UN/Unkil/Pinko/WKK/Media spotlight on us an artillery barrage or two might not be resorted to.... for some time. :cry:

Hope the responsible squad finds a totally deniable tripwired Claymore mine, business side up, when they open their new rations box.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby srin » 10 Jan 2013 08:44

SSridhar wrote:There were also promises of exposing the ISI through a white paper and then brave talk of hot pursuit. I don't know whose BJP it was that made such tall promises.

With respect, I'm glad there was no such whitepaper. That would have exposed our intelligence and counter-intelligence capabilities.

Regarding hot pursuit - it is silly to announce our intentions beforehand. Similar with cold start too - we talk about it for 5 years, develop capabilities so slowly that our adversaries have a lot of time to develop response to that ... Always better to have such tactics as a surprise.

We like to talk a lot.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby arun » 10 Jan 2013 08:46

arun wrote:X Posted from the TSP thread.

Read and weep.

Praveen Swami of the Hindu with a story claimed to be an “exclusive” on the beheading of Indian soldiers.

Looks like our Congress Party led UPA Administration is trying to absolve itself for its pusillanimous dhimmi-like response to this latest provocative action by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan by spreading some of the blame for the beheading onto the Indian Army :x :

Runaway grandmother sparked savage skirmish on LoC


X Posted from the TSP thread.

The Congress Party led UPA Administration’s strategy of covering up its pusillanimous and dhimmi-like behaviour in the face of provocations from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan by spreading the blame for the beheading of our soldiers onto the Indian Army seems not to be limited to Praveen Swami and the Hindu.

Yet more motivated (?) leaks from unnamed Government source this time from Saikat Datta of the DNA:

Uri Commanders Forceful Retaliation Led To Beheadings?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 10 Jan 2013 09:00

Uri Commanders Forceful Retaliation Led To Beheadings?


What sort of BS headline is this? Isnt this akin to "did rape victim dressing cause her to be targetted"??

Why are such specimen thriving only in Desh?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby darshhan » 10 Jan 2013 09:30

arun wrote:
Praveen Swami of the Hindu with a story claimed to be an “exclusive” on the beheading of Indian soldiers.


Yet more motivated (?) leaks from unnamed Government source this time from Saikat Datta of the DNA:

Uri Commanders Forceful Retaliation Led To Beheadings?


Guys, These two journalists have crossed the red line by disclosing the identity of an Army officer who is currently engaged in operations on the LOC. Apart from Pakis these two Journalists should never be forgiven and made to pay for it. Hopefully the Army guys who frequent this forum and are reading this thread( i.e if any ) will take note of these two journalists and spread the word to their colleagues including those in SF. Afterall accidents can happen to anyone.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 10 Jan 2013 09:31

Attack has stamp of special Pak unit, feels Indian Army

A day after a brutal cross-border raid by the Pakistani army left two Indian soldiers dead in the Poonch area, more details have emerged about the gruesome nature of the assault. The Indian Army, which has lodged a strong protest with Pakistan for a gross violation of the rules of engagement, suspects that the Special Service Group (SSG) of the Pakistani army carried out the raid.

It is also learnt that while the Pakistani raiding party carried back the head of one of the two soldiers who were killed in the ambush, an attempt was also made to behead the second soldier. However, it was thwarted after Indian reinforcements arrived and engaged the Pakistani troops. Mutilation marks were also found on the chest and thighs of the two soldiers.

Sources said that while the 29 Balouch regiment is deployed in the sector where the ambush took place, the attack bore the trademark of SSG which has carried out similar raids in the past. The special unit, nicknamed the ‘Black Storks’, is known for its trademark black clothes and guerilla tactics — similar to details emerging from the accounts of two injured Indian soldiers.


It is learnt that an ambush party of 8-10 SSG commandos were lying in wait for the Indian troops who were carrying out a regular patrol along the Line of Control. Sources said the area where the ambush took place was vulnerable as the border fence that keeps out infiltrators is located almost 2 km inside Indian territory, given the difficult terrain.

The Indian party was conducting patrols ahead of the fence and barely a few hundred metres away from the demarcated LoC when it was ambushed. The two soldiers who got killed were a buddy pair acting as scouts for the patrol party. Both are believed to have been killed in the first burst of gunfire by the Pakistani soldiers.

The rest of the patrol party retaliated but the dense fog made it diffucult to spot the enemy. The exchange of fire lasted for almost 30 minutes, the time by which the Pakistani troops had beheaded one of the soldiers and returned to their side of the LoC.

So our patrol was on the other side of the fence( towards TSP) since the fence is 2 K.Ms within our land. So, the SSG didnt have any fence to cross and only had to walk across to the spot. Maybe thats why no sensors etc spotted them since they might be fitted with the fence 2 k.m. inside.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Raja Bose » 10 Jan 2013 09:34

andy B wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Yes there was. IIRC IAF basically went into BD airspace and caused some major brown pants syndrome amongst the beedis. What we need is armed drones so that even while the incident is taking place, they can take off, track the intruders back to their bunkers and blast 'em to jannat. Like it or not, massa got that formula right when it comes to dealing with the pakis.


RB any are there any news or articles abt this happening. I had heard about this vaguely but never confirmed.


I think it had come out in a slightly inaccurate version in some rag. I got to know from eyewitnesses onlee.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rajanb » 10 Jan 2013 09:55

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_dna-exclusive-uri-commanders-forceful-retaliation-led-to-beheadings_1787448

Why is it fateful? Unless it is good fate.

They should put Brig. Rawat in charge of the revenge raids all across the LoC!

Jolly good Brigadier. Up the ante!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rajanb » 10 Jan 2013 09:57

pandyan wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Another Indian PM implemented his own doctrine which was unilateral surrender and caused irreperable damage. We have always given away on negotiating table what was hard earned in battle because we felt we should not push the dushman too hard lest Versailles syndrome took over and Indian returns were diminished.

...
The IA's retaliation, which is sure to come, cannot be appropriated by these impotent leaders unless of course they had given explicit orders to do so and fully back the Army.


Is it possible that Indian leaders are scared of Puke leaders? I mean most the politicians started as a small time rowdies and used to beat up hapless people. May be puki leaders look like bigger rowdies and our leaders are scared they will beaten up (hand-hand, knife, sickle etc)? Or may be they dont understand scale/power of armed forces and still stuck to lathi, pistols, knife, sickles, acid bath?


My tubelight came on. Maybe, Dawood, who has a lot of dope on so many of our politicians has given P!gturds the dope on said politicos. And hence this fear?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 10 Jan 2013 10:08

That BS of an article from DNA/Saikat Datta has all the INPUTS from Home Ministry - it is quite amazing the extent to which this government will go to save itself and its pet project of 'aman ki asha'...it has already shifted the blame to the IA. Only in India will its establishment castigate its own to show the enemy in good light and save their own a** and not do anything. The b@stards across the border would be laughing their a@@ off at this ch**tiyapanti from Indian political establishment.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SSridhar » 10 Jan 2013 10:29

arun wrote:Yet more motivated (?) leaks from unnamed Government source this time from Saikat Datta of the DNA:
Uri Commanders Forceful Retaliation Led To Beheadings?

The above report is quoting Home Ministry officials ! I don't know why MHA must be talking about this while they keep mum on various other issues that directly pertain to them inside the country. This is not their matter to comment upon.

Leaving that aside, the Uri commander took a decision in the line of his duty for which he is authorized. He cannot be expected to exhibit the same extreme pusillanimous behaviour of our political leaders. The intention of our political class, during various periods in the last 65 years, has been to make the armed forces weak so that they fall in line with their own ineffectual, cowardly and useless way of thinking and acting. The current government is one of the leading purveyors of this strategy and hence these leaks,

What the political leadership is failing to realize is that by not backing their own army for their just actions, they are making themselves a ridiculous foolish laughing stock. Of course, there are news papers and TV channels that propagate a similar view, but common folk on the street are seething with extreme anger and are demanding revenge. The leadership is utterly dimwitted when it equates a normal military action with a jihadist-style beheading and goes even one step further to imply that the fate that befell our two bravehearts was somehow their due. Shame on these leaders and bureaucrats and shame on us for sending these people to those high offices.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 10 Jan 2013 10:36

SSridhar wrote:<SNIP> The leadership is utterly dimwitted when it equates a normal military action with a jihadist-style beheading and goes even one step further to imply that the fate that befell our two bravehearts was somehow their due. Shame on these leaders and bureaucrats and shame on us for sending these people to those high offices.


I'm going to use the above lines in social media...thanks for putting it up succinctly.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby peter » 10 Jan 2013 10:44

Please hear what General Cardozo is saying. That is exactly what is required today and the beauty is he and his paltan did it earlier. Listen on around 37 minute marker.:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-buck-stops-here/tipping-point-for-india-pakistan-relations/261281

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Philip » 10 Jan 2013 10:47

,

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SSridhar » 10 Jan 2013 11:05

srin wrote:With respect, I'm glad there was no such whitepaper. That would have exposed our intelligence and counter-intelligence capabilities.

Regarding hot pursuit - it is silly to announce our intentions beforehand. Similar with cold start too - we talk about it for 5 years, develop capabilities so slowly that our adversaries have a lot of time to develop response to that ... Always better to have such tactics as a surprise.

We like to talk a lot.

srin, whether a whitepaper would have compromised our sources is a moot point. Remember we played to the entire world the recording of Gen. Musharraf's telephonic discussion with his deputy, Gen. Mohammed Aziz during the Kargil war. One can argue that even that would have compromised our sources. If we are so paranoid, we may not even be able to exchange dossier with TSP. After all, the ISI white paper was meant for consumption by Indian citizens and it could have been prepared in a way that did not compromise sources. Doesn't the Defence Minister answer various questions in the Parliament on various aspects of Indian defence ?

Anyway, my point was to state the fact that all are on board when it comes to dealing with TSP. Some may be relatively better but even they are found wanting at various times.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby RSoami » 10 Jan 2013 11:14

The Hindu article is pure crap.

Its an attempt at justifying the Terrorist attack on our soldiers. Ishrat Jahaan was an innocent Muslim Girl and Ghanchi Muslim girl/teavendor was eveteased at Godhra station.

"Indian special forces responded by targeting a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers and, by the account of one military official, which The Hindu could not corroborate independently, beheaded two."

Apparently The Hindu has managed to verify everything else independently except this.
And still it thought it was ok to write this up in the farticle.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sri » 10 Jan 2013 11:39

SSridhar wrote:
arun wrote:Yet more motivated (?) leaks from unnamed Government source this time from Saikat Datta of the DNA:
Uri Commanders Forceful Retaliation Led To Beheadings?

The above report is quoting Home Ministry officials ! I don't know why MHA must be talking about this while they keep mum on various other issues that directly pertain to them inside the country. This is not their matter to comment upon.

Leaving that aside, the Uri commander took a decision in the line of his duty for which he is authorized. He cannot be expected to exhibit the same extreme pusillanimous behaviour of our political leaders. The intention of our political class, during various periods in the last 65 years, has been to make the armed forces weak so that they fall in line with their own ineffectual, cowardly and useless way of thinking and acting. The current government is one of the leading purveyors of this strategy and hence these leaks,

What the political leadership is failing to realize is that by not backing their own army for their just actions, they are making themselves a ridiculous foolish laughing stock. Of course, there are news papers and TV channels that propagate a similar view, but common folk on the street are seething with extreme anger and are demanding revenge. The leadership is utterly dimwitted when it equates a normal military action with a jihadist-style beheading and goes even one step further to imply that the fate that befell our two bravehearts was somehow their due. Shame on these leaders and bureaucrats and shame on us for sending these people to those high offices.



SS Sir, in article itself they say he asked for permission only after harassment and provocation by PA. It is not uncommon for Indian commanders to take such actions. Rather the whole cold start doctrine is designed punish individual units and establishment immediately without risking full fledged war.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Kapil » 10 Jan 2013 14:36

Rohit et al,

No point getting so worked up about this.
One more Starbucks to open soon to show how we are a top country.
Relax

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 10 Jan 2013 14:41

From rediff:

The Indian Army [ Images ] has decided to play it cool.

Despite the grave provocation by Pakistan in killing two soldiers and beheading one of them, the Army will not respond in anger, senior commanders have said.

Instead, they will wait for an appropriate time and place to 'pay back' in kind, highly placed sources say.

The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen Vinod Bhatia, too conveyed a very tough message to his Pakistani counterpart on Wednesday when they spoke for the second time in 48 hours. The DGMO is reported to have warned of severe consequences in case of a repeat incident of the kind witnessed at Mendhar on Tuesday.

Let the TSP-ians at the border posts keep cowering in their dark bunkers every time a leaf ruffles in the wind thinking it is a IA raid till the real deal happens

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Aditya G » 10 Jan 2013 15:09

Folks pls carry on the LoC skirmish in this specialized thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6510

Mods requested to help transfer the posts.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Aaryan » 10 Jan 2013 16:07

I am wondering when will Mr. Swami inform us that the real reasons for beheading of our brave hearts are the Gujrat riots and Demolition of Babari masjid. And those incidents affected the peace loving paki commander deeply during his childhood and thus he turned into a jihadi and barbaric TFTA.. :roll: :roll:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2013 17:51

Kapil wrote:Rohit et al,

No point getting so worked up about this.
One more Starbucks to open soon to show how we are a top country.
Relax


Perhaps the beheading is not happening to near our homes.. and the reason for all these relaxation.
The same relaxation is how these idiots got to the helm sitting and dirtying the parliament.
Since 1947, we have been suffering from this relaxation... and even now with rape & plunder of nth dimension.

So, if we are so useless to ask for good change, then how come we are so useful in asking for restrain/relax? This must be the meekest mind on planet Earth.

Come on, we should not listen to Kapil, till he gets worked up on this. It is not the life of one or ten thousand that should get us worked up.. it should be this relaxation against which we need work on.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 10 Jan 2013 17:59

SaiK wrote:Come on, we should not listen to Kapil, till he gets worked up on this. It is not the life of one or ten thousand that should get us worked up.. it should be this relaxation against which we need work on.


I think you misread Kapil.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Ardeshir » 10 Jan 2013 18:02

Not sure if this non-sense has been posted here before.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/r ... 291426.ece

Indian bunker construction on the northern reaches of the Line of Control — initiated after a grandmother crossed into Pakistan-administered Kashmir to be with her sons — sparked off a spiral of violence which culminated in the brutal killing of two soldiers in an ambush earlier this week, highly placed military and government sources have told The Hindu.

The clashes, among the worst on the Line of Control since a ceasefire went into place, have provoked fears that the ceasefire may melt down. In India, news that the two soldiers were beheaded has provoked widespread outrage and calls for large-scale military retaliation.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby venku_Raj » 10 Jan 2013 18:04


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 10 Jan 2013 18:08



Not enough, won't be satisfied till IA or SF beheads and burns the body of puki soldiers and the commando team which carried out the attack on IA. May take a yr or two doesn't matter it must be done.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Ghatotkacha » 10 Jan 2013 19:25

I think India should do the same what Israel did after the Munich incident. Use intelligence sources and pin-point the planner/executioner and soldiers involved in killing of Indian soldiers, and then deliver justice either in form of a ballistic missile to their whereabout or by sending Indian SF in. No matter if this takes months, but India should do this, then only Pakis will understand gravity of situation and lose their barbaric habit. And, they would also know our words are not hallow when we say "enough is enough"
Last edited by Ghatotkacha on 10 Jan 2013 19:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Ghatotkacha » 10 Jan 2013 19:27

sum wrote:Let the TSP-ians at the border posts keep cowering in their dark bunkers every time a leaf ruffles in the wind thinking it is a IA raid till the real deal happens



:rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rsingh » 10 Jan 2013 19:43

Philip wrote:,


2nd that

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Baikul » 10 Jan 2013 19:54

darshhan wrote:...........
Guys, These two journalists have crossed the red line by disclosing the identity of an Army officer who is currently engaged in operations on the LOC. Apart from Pakis these two Journalists should never be forgiven and made to pay for it.........


My concern is that by naming the Brigadier- with the covert backing of GoI sources- they are setting him up for the fall. That was the first thought I had when I read the story about how the Brigadier had been 'over aggressive'.

It would be a bloody shame if his career suffers because of this.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2013 20:17

So, explain then Sagar G., I am having moorkh days, and outpaced with more focus on holistic thoughts.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 10 Jan 2013 20:29

SaiK wrote:So, explain then Sagar G., I am having moorkh days, and outpaced with more focus on holistic thoughts.


I think he was being sarcastic only or maybe I got your post wrong. Too much confusion onlee saar now :lol:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby anand_sankar » 10 Jan 2013 21:13

I sent this letter to The Hindu earlier today.

This letter is regarding the article "Runaway grandmother sparked savage skirmish on LoC' by Mr Praveen Swami published on January 10, 2013.

I have a specific issue with the article authored by Mr Swami, which centers around naming the 19 Infantry Division commander. I have to question the naming of the commander for the following reasons:

1. All the military, police and government "sources" quoted by Mr Swami are unnamed.

2. At no point in the article does Mr Swami claim to have in his possession documents or any other hard evidence handed over to him by his "sources" which implicitly names the 19 Infantry Division commander and detail his role in the events.

3. At no point in the article the journalist has contacted the said commander and asked for his response. There is not even a mention if the Army Spokesperson has been asked about this specific commander and his actions. The only comment by the Army Spokesperson in the entire article is a standard quoted response to a Pakistani allegation.

From my reading of the article, I find a series of "sources" are alleging a version of events that is supposed to have taken place and inferences are drawn from it. Mr Swami has a right to protect his "sources" and thus they are unnamed.

From the above, I can say the 19 Infantry Division commander also has the same right to remain unnamed. It would have been sufficient to have just mentioned him as the "19 Infantry Division Commander".

It is wrong journalistic practice to name people based on unsubstantiated allegations by unnamed "sources". I hope The Hindu realises this error.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 10 Jan 2013 21:17

Aaryan wrote:I am wondering when will Mr. Swami inform us that the real reasons for beheading of our brave hearts are the Gujrat riots and Demolition of Babari masjid. And those incidents affected the peace loving paki commander deeply during his childhood and thus he turned into a jihadi and barbaric TFTA.. :roll: :roll:

He is currently on NDTV and arguing with Vivek Katju about how India and Pak are same in these matters and how we deceive ourselves since even Indian "rogue" soldiers have beheaded TSP-ians in the past.

Pathetic. And to watch this tamasha of a MEA giant like Mr.Katju being harrased by a journo is another BRF favorite, Mosharraf Zaidi, who denies that a beheading even took place!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby RoyG » 10 Jan 2013 22:05

Swami was also apart of the witch hunt against "saffron terror". I know where his loyalties lie. He's an intellectually bankrupt secularist just like the charlatans in GoI.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Aaryan » 10 Jan 2013 22:25

If we judge neutraly Swami is usualy quite good with figures ( With getting selective leaks) But otherwise his theory is heavily infuenced and bent leftwards.. In few days expect new articles from him where he will write about about beheading's that happened in past with some facts and some fiction..

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby putnanja » 10 Jan 2013 23:11

Look at the clarification by IA hidden somewhere deep in the report, while the other report saying IA precipitated the conflict is big story ...

India shoots down Pak talk of UN probe

...
Separately, the army clarified in reference to The Hindu story ‘Runaway grandmother sparked savage skirmish on LoC’ that Maj. Gen. Khandare and not Maj. Gen. G.S. Rawat is currently the General Officer Commanding of 19 Infantry Division. The army also denied that any permission was ever sought by the GOC for aggressive action against any Pakistani post.
...


No such clarification by DNA though!

Looks like someone is feeding wrong information to these papers to play down the incident, and avoid taking tough decisions! My suspicions are it is Chidambaram. They even got the GoC name wrong. DNA says this person has aggressive style, when he is not the one commanding that division! How dishonest can you get??

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 11 Jan 2013 02:25

We need a sarcasm icon. Maybe one of the shock icons can be used?

SaiK, it was sarcasm on part of Kapil.

We now know who all the "notional" security reporters are on lifafa:
Pravin Swami
Saikat Datta

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Prem Kumar » 11 Jan 2013 02:38

Praveen Swami digs up a lot of details & connects the dots with regards to Islamic terror and the people involved. But there is always a sting in the tail of even those reports, where he tries to do a pathetic equal-equal with saffron terror.

I've always wondered if he did that to fall in line with Chindu's editorial policy or if he was a genuine libtard traitor. I am swinging to the latter opinion after reading his latest pieve


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