Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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williams
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby williams » 23 Aug 2013 07:01

MMS alone cannot pull it off. The whole ruling establishment has lost the countries confidence. This time the economy tanked and there are scams coming out on the media every day. So unless the opposition parties do something stupid they can easily throw this establishment out. Question then is will something be done if NDA comes to power. Sadly NDA did not do much at least to my satisfaction. If you all remember we had the Bangladesh folks beheading our soldiers.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 24 Aug 2013 11:23

rohitvats, Any description of these Paki bunkers like height and depth of walls etc.

The L70/40 is almost being used in direct fire role like an anti tank gun.

In WWII there used to be a anti tank gun called 2 pdr and was 37mm.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby krishnan » 24 Aug 2013 11:26

Cant they use ATGM's , they could probably use those old stock could be nice target practice

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jamwal » 24 Aug 2013 11:48

The area has dense vegetation. Wire guided missiles can not be expected to have 100 % accuracy in every sector and are probably much more expensive.
I'm not 100 % sure about the exact locations, but whatever I know of the terrain, average altitude of the area is 1000 m. Most of our border posts are on hills 300-500 meters high, but it varies. Further north, altitude is higher.

FWIW, the journalist in Times Now video was reporting from Jammu city, not Poonch or Mendhar. No idea about the soldier whose interview was shown earlier.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vic » 24 Aug 2013 12:52

Any vegetation that will affect wire guidance will normally affect line of sight hence, laser guidance as well as IR seeker guidance also.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 24 Aug 2013 16:10

i think milans should be used or konkurs
hang the expense - it has HUGE morale boosting value to see images of missiles smack down pukes

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby abhik » 24 Aug 2013 17:16

How effective would the ATGM actually be? As far as expense is concerned these missiles have a limited shelf life of 10-20 years. IINW these are usually used in training and exercises. So there should be 100's if not 1000's of missiles which can be put to good use without much real expense.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jamwal » 24 Aug 2013 23:15

‘Nobody believed we had killed so many Chinese at Rezang La. Our commander called me crazy and warned that I could be court-martialled’

So I said, saab, ek baat hai, aap haalaat ko dekhiye (Sir, please see the circumstances). You come there and I will tell you how we killed so many. I said, you note down these three points: Major saab's body, his gloves with his blood; in the Company, you will find every jawan with bullet wounds on his chest, you will not get wounds on their backs; nursing assistant Dharam Pal, he put bandages on 32 wounded soldiers, and he died while bandaging his comrades.

Yadav: The jawan, he is holding the light machine gun, and he has bullets in his chest, and is dead...But the machine gun hasn't fallen from his hands even when he is dead, he is clasping the machine gun. And the jawan throwing the grenade, dead, with the grenade still in his hands, the Chinese couldn't take the grenade off his hand. And many were found with their bayonets too?

Yadav: Yes, with their bayonets in their hands, in a crouching position, bullets in their chest, dead, holding the naked bayonet in a fighting stance. Their bodies had frozen.

Yadav: Yes, the bodies were all frozen. Our commander saab (Brigadier Raina, who later became the Army Chief) became so emotional that his artificial eye moved from its position. He burst into tears. He was told, 'Sir, have courage, calm down, this is war, the jawans have done their very best...' Those who came from Delhi were told, 'Come with us to the quarter master's.' They said, 'No, this is enough. We have seen what we had to see. Whatever you had said was actually an understatement. Each one of you killed 10 Chinese, and then you died.' So, this was the battle of Rezang La.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 25 Aug 2013 01:40

Lalmohan wrote:i think milans should be used or konkurs
hang the expense - it has HUGE morale boosting value to see images of missiles smack down pukes


Milan, Konkurs are all wire guided. Carl Gustav doesn't have the range.

So essentially the problem is lack of fire and forget bunker busting weapons. Hence the resort to L70/40 in a direct fire mode. Good innovative use.

In WWII, the first AT gun was the 2 pounder which was 37mm. I wish the L70/40 had an AP round even if it is API/T much better.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Raja Bose » 25 Aug 2013 01:59

jamwal wrote:‘Nobody believed we had killed so many Chinese at Rezang La. Our commander called me crazy and warned that I could be court-martialled’

So I said, saab, ek baat hai, aap haalaat ko dekhiye (Sir, please see the circumstances). You come there and I will tell you how we killed so many. I said, you note down these three points: Major saab's body, his gloves with his blood; in the Company, you will find every jawan with bullet wounds on his chest, you will not get wounds on their backs; nursing assistant Dharam Pal, he put bandages on 32 wounded soldiers, and he died while bandaging his comrades.



IIRC the photo of Dharam Pal dead at his position was one of the most poignant photos to come out of the 1962 war. BRF probably has it in its archives somewhere too.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby krishnan » 25 Aug 2013 06:29

Image

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 25 Aug 2013 09:33

Wish they had produced the Krasnopol-M. By now there would have been a desi jugaad and much more accurate retaliation.

Always manage to kuladi ourselves demanding more than physics can offer.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jamwal » 25 Aug 2013 20:59

Salute that soldier at the LoC

At the Line of Control, young Indian soldiers -- in their 20s and 30s -- defend one of the world's most volatile borders.
Battling harsh weather, tough terrain and a hostile enemy -- as old as the Indian nation itself -- these soldiers face a war every day to hold the peace.


The posts are small -- almost makeshift structures -- but are formidable and crucial to India's defences.

Some have seen bloody action in every war with Pakistan, where men have had to fight to the last man and the last bullet in the face of enemy attack.

"The post was attacked by Pakistan several times -- again and again -- over three days during the 1971 war, but it did not fall," a young officer entrusted with defending that post explains. "If this post goes, the battleground is lost. It will be very difficult to recapture it."

A different infantry battalion now mans this post. Most of its soldiers were not even born in 1971, but speak with great admiration of the soldiers who held on to this post unrelentingly 40 years ago. A small memorial salutes the men who died fighting here.

Up ahead, in the precincts of another post that gives us a bird's eye view of the LoC and Pakistan, is another memorial to those who died defending this front.

Apart from saluting our martyrs, it also extends solemn tribute to the fallen Pakistani soldiers -- 'Homage also to enemy soldiers killed' reads the last line of the plain marble plaque.


Young men -- in their 20s and 30s -- who 'stand on the wall', keeping the watch as they defend one of the world's most volatile borders.

"You can call us the CEOs of 800 men," says Colonel Nair, slapping the back of a jawan, "but the difference is that I will give my life for him and I know he will do the same for me -- 200 per cent and without a doubt."

"When the fire comes, I will stand in front of him and he will stand in front of me. That is the kind of faith we have."

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby VKumar » 25 Aug 2013 23:22

Tracers trace both ways. Tracer fires at a different distance than the normal bullet/shell, so if tracer is landing on target, the normal bullet may be 20% short (this was discovered by US fighter pilots in WW2). Also use of tracer to mark the 'end of ammo belt' works both ways and alerts enemy too.

With the advent of night vision and thermal imagers, it may be better to reduce dependence on tracer.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2013 04:00

williams wrote:MMS alone cannot pull it off. The whole ruling establishment has lost the countries confidence. This time the economy tanked and there are scams coming out on the media every day. So unless the opposition parties do something stupid they can easily throw this establishment out. Question then is will something be done if NDA comes to power. Sadly NDA did not do much at least to my satisfaction. If you all remember we had the Bangladesh folks beheading our soldiers.


I seriously question this stuff about NDA being as bad as UPA. They werent even a tenth as bad. Yes, Kandahar and the killing of BSF guys were bad things on their watch, but the former - Jaswant Singh flew to Afghanistan to get those people back. That was a courageous thing to do. Can you imagine any of our current guys doing that? Also, despite ABVs tendency to be nicey nice with Pak (a tendency remarked on by JN Dixit in his bio), he never interfered or caused diplomatic fiascos like MMS has done, or opened India upto such third rate appeasement. During the cross border incidents that happened during that time, the Indian Army hammered Pakistan like blazes - on one occasion they took out a Brigade HQ. Can you imagine anything like that happening with Pak-pasand MMS at the helm? NDA's big problem - in part - was the pressure on them. They had the entire pro INC/Left crowd out for them with knives unleashed (hence all the Tehelka type exposes - not even one like that with UPA), and also to ensure continuity, they had to keep INC heritage folks around -e.g. Brajesh Mishra. Despite this, they pulled off the nuke tests, revitalized the economy and made it a powerhouse, changed Indian infrastructure and also kicked off the rearmament of the Indian services. They even had tough anti terror legislation. I think time will tell as to how many forces came together to get that govt down. But if they had continued in power, I sincerely doubt we would be in anyways the kind of mess we are in today. A novice Govt took remarkable steps to change India's position in the world, and made huge positive contributions. In the 8 years thence, things have just slid and slid and slid. At the end of the day, without a decisive, patriotic leadership who feels for the nation, rest is immaterial. Even ABV when asked about why he made peaceful overtures to Pak, remarked that he had been to lucknow, met a martyrs family, and felt he had to do something. LKA, for all his egotism today, could not be doubted on where his heart was - he broke down crying when news of India's nuke tests was told to him. MMS incidentally, stood up in Parliament to oppose the nuke tests. What we have today is whimsy and complete lack of accountability at the leadership level and that is what shows. We can buy all the weapons but the intentions matter. They have to be protect the nation, not pad accounts and there has to be a purpose to them, such as the kind of weapons that can make the Pakis/Chinese think twice before attempting to intrude into Indian territory/attack Indian soldiers. Let alone the near complete failure in terms of terrorism that we have seen, the fake targeting of Hindu terror/fight between Govt agencies and the use of the state to target political rivals. All this is so shameful. India has been turned back into a full third world country as versus a new hope story.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby williams » 26 Aug 2013 06:59

Karan M, I never said NDA is as bad as UPA. It is easy to beat this UPA regime's standards, but I expected more from NDA at that time. With a much lower economic flexibility, IG pulled off many things and strengthened our armed forces to a level of respect they deserve. I did not see that kind of leadership from NDA. With the kind of resources we have today, still our soldiers need to trek for almost a day to reach some of the critical border posts. Still our border management infrastructure is poor. It is amazing that the moral of our troops are so high, that they endure unnecessary hardship that a country of out size could afford to alleviate. NDA simply did not fulfill the expectations of the nationalists and perhaps that is one of the reason they could not inspire the nationalist crowd to a level that could have turned the elections in their favor. Even today, unless NDA can start a national movement against this regime, we are going to either have a weak coalition or a hung parliament in 2014. Sorry for being a bit off topic.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Philip » 26 Aug 2013 07:00

We are back in the "turd world" league. Midgets like the Maldives and Sri Lanka give us the upturned finger.I have always been a bitter critic of the UPA and MMS ever since it took power because its fundamental interests have been anti-national. MMS has made no attempt whatsoever to prevent the looting of the exchequer by his cabinet colleagues and UPA allies.In fact,he has been the one who has swept the dirt under the carpet.Our foreign policy is so inept and spineless that we and our FMs of the UPA,have become the laughing stock of the world. We dump old friends and strategic allies like Iran at US behest;an ancient land with age-old ties and a Shiite powerhouse required to encircle Sunni/Wahabi Pak,We get armtwisted by the US on Sri Lanka,driving it further into the Chinese arms,are scared stiff to openly arm and train the Afghans and have lost out on our influence in Africa and the NAM nations to the Chinese.No wonder the Chinese derisively call us a "paper tiger".A few years ago,the FM of a friendly country familiar with China asked me why we were not using our full potential in global affairs when the Chinese were flexing their muscle? This never would've happened under IG,RG or the NDA's rule.

Securitywise,on both eastern and western fronts,our mortal enemies have us on the back foot and we are desperately firefighting at the 11th hour.Defence decision-making has been in a state of paralysis for most of the time under AKA.The less said about the handling of the economy the better.Huge doles to rural folk at the expense of promoting Indian industry and agriculture,which along with the looting is beggaring us.We allow imports ad nauseum ,esp. from China that has decapitated Indian industry.
Worst of all is the pandering to communal interests just before the election,typical Congress vote-bank politics.

The Indian Army has just been rated as one of the most powerful entities in Asia.But currently,it is as if the sword will never ever leave its scabbard even if we are trampled upon,just as we saw in the clips of Chinese aggro in Ar.Pradesh.The IA must be given a free hand to defend the borders as its sees fit.Modernisation and swift decisions on critical eqpt. is still in a state of paralysis under AKA.The sordid attempt to sweep the last Paki atrocity by the MEA,MOD and PMO was utterly shameful and an insult to our gallant armed forces.When we are in a crisis,as was experienced at Kargil,decisions must be taken on a war footing,if we are not to suffer another Chinese version of Kargil or worse still a repeat of '62.

PS:If not for the NDA and the P-2 tests,which has spurred us with our missile development and establishing our strategic triad, we would be in a perilous state vis-a-vis Pak and China.On defence issues,we took two major decisions acquiring the Gorshkov and retaining the IN's carrier capability (never mind the subsequent problems in execution of the contract) and the Scorpene deal )again plagued by delays and cost overruns).That gave our defence establishment the momentum to carry on with providing the nation with an indigenous strategic deterrent.The NDA paid for P-2 with massive US/western sanctions.The US (Clinton) even collaborated wiuth the Chinese to defang India.He turned a blind eye to Sino-Pak N-proliferation.It was only when they found that they could not roll back India's N-stance ("not now not ever") that they decided that it wa sbetter having us "p*ssing outside the tent rather than p*ssing within",but the aim has been always to cap and limit our WMD capability.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 28 Aug 2013 17:41

more good news...economic times. looks like 100s of OFB produced barrels are being summarily written off. and barrels dont last that long...more will need to be imported unless the local production is also fixed up.

India to replace bursting T-72 tank barrels under Rs 1,500 cr deal with Russia
By PTI | 28 Aug, 2013, 05.08PM IST0 comments |Post a Comment

NEW DELHI: Seeking to address the issue of bursting barrels of Army tanks due to ammunition, the government is planning to replace them with canons of T-90 tanks in collaboration with Russia.

T-72 tanks, the mainstay of the Indian armoured fleet, are facing problems with their ammunition as they sometimes burst in the barrel and 200 such cases have been reported causing concern in the Army.

The Defence Ministry is planning to replace the barrels of the T-72 tanks with the ones fitted in the T-90 tanks. Under the plan, around 800 barrels are to be procured from Russia under a deal expected to be worth around Rs 1,500 crore, government sources told PTI here.

The issue is expected to be taken up for discussion during the high-level talks between India and Russia during the visit of Defence Secretary Radha Kant Mathur to Moscow next week, they said.

Earlier this year, the Army told a Parliamentary panel that barrels burst sometimes due to ammunition and wondered whether its troops will be "afraid" to fire even after seeing the enemy.

"It (the T-72 ammunition) used to burst in the barrel. If it bursts in the barrel, then the firer is afraid to fire his own gun, which is not a correct thing. If he is afraid to fire his own gun, then even if he sees the enemy he will not fire," the Army had told the Standing Committee on Defence.

The Army informed the government and the Parliamentary Committee that over a period of time, there have been 200 such accidents involving the ammunition and "it brings down the confidence of the firer, especially, with regard to tank ammunition".

In terms of the numbers, the T-72 tanks are the backbone of the Indian armoured fleet and have undergone several upgrades since their induction to be able to fight effectively in the battlefield.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby neeraj » 28 Aug 2013 17:52

The Defence Ministry is planning to replace the barrels of the T-72 tanks with the ones fitted in the T-90 tanks. Under the plan, around 800 barrels are to be procured from Russia under a deal expected to be worth around Rs 1,500 crore, government sources told PTI here.


So I guess OFB cannot make T-90 barrels on their own - pathetic state of affairs

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby krishnan » 28 Aug 2013 18:06

is that the truth ???? When we can make Arjun barrels why not t-72's ???

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 28 Aug 2013 18:53

krishnan wrote:is that the truth ???? When we can make Arjun barrels why not t-72's ???


We can, we just "dont". Lack of execution, not knowledge.

Arjun has had its own share of QC issues.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Philip » 28 Aug 2013 19:16

Delightful description!
[quote]If it bursts in the barrel, then the firer is afraid to fire his own gun, which is not a correct thing[/quote]
Sat truth is that no one in the OFB will get "fired"!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 28 Aug 2013 19:39

Arent there two issues: weak barrels and exploding ammo?

Basically the Pakis dont need anti-tank guns for the T-72s.
Thanks to OFB the barrels will burst when the guns are fired.


200 cases out of how many? Sounds pretty egregious.
Is this a CBM from UPA to ensure victory to the Pak-PRC combine in a two front war?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby RKumar » 28 Aug 2013 19:42

Sanku wrote:
krishnan wrote:is that the truth ???? When we can make Arjun barrels why not t-72's ???


We can, we just "dont". Lack of execution, not knowledge.

Arjun has had its own share of QC issues.


We all know Arjun is a bad and failed product.

Lets talk about T-72 and T-90. I thought, we are producing T-90 locally and have the required ToT for the barrel then why we are importing these from Russia?? Another scam in the making?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 28 Aug 2013 20:20

RKumar wrote:We all know Arjun is a bad and failed product.


Uh Oh...what have you done! :)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 28 Aug 2013 22:10

RKumar wrote:Another scam in the making?


No, this particular scam which goes by the name of different DPSUs have been around for a while.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Hiten » 30 Aug 2013 21:25

Indian Army More Than Doubles Its Mini-UAV Requirements For J&K Operations
Image

Number could more than triple, if it invokes option to place follow-on orders for these mini-UAVs. Final tally may surpass five-fold increase.

Subsequent to recent reports that indicated the Indian Army's [IA] intention to acquire Mini Unmanned Aerial Vehicles [UAV], it recently issued a 'Request For Proposal [RFP' in that regard. While the earlier report suggested that the requirement would be for 20 mini-UAV systems, the number has now been increased to 49. This acquisition, as originally stated, is to be made using discretionary funds allocated, through the Army Commanders Special Financial Powers [ACSFP], to the Jammu & Kashmir [J&K]-based Northern Command of the Indian Army.

This bid invitation appears to be a modification of its earlier requirement itself, & is unlikely to be an all-new purchase. For one, no reports in the MSM to suggest that purchase, as part of the earlier notification, has already been made. Moreover, Qualitative Requirement [QR] stated now exactly matches the earlier mentioned. It would, therefore, elude logic for the Army would go through the whole process of 'jumping through hoops' all over again, barely a year later, for more of the same. Keeping future needs in mind, the IA has stated, under the 'Repeat Order' clause, that the chosen vendor must agree to supply an additional 50% of the number of mini-UAVs bought initially, under the same terms of agreement, if the Army places a follow-on order within 6 months of the first. Therefore, with 49 in the initial purchase & possible 24 more subsequently, the number could reach 73, a more than tripling in numbers from the original 20. The eventual number of these unmanned flying platforms could even surpass 110, more than five-fold jump, if one considers the upper limit of the 'Tolerance' clause, followed by invocation of the 'Repeat order' clause2. If one is unconvinced of the possibility of such leaps in inducted numbers, one only need read IAF's 'Flanker' story.

The technical specifications stated puts its requirements within the realms of standard applications of such UAVs, with work on more exotic ones being in the pipeline. Given that the requirement states that the UAV need no runway to take-off, it is likely to be hurled by hand into the air to propel it to take-off. It must also, subsequently, land without the need of paved runway. Once airborne, the Army would require it to fly over the pre-programmed flight path, without any human intervention. If, during mission, it encounters anomalous situations like low battery levels or loss of communication with its Ground Controllers, the UAV should have the capability to abort mission & return back automatically. Its surveillance capability would be judged on the ability of its day-time camera to discern a single human being from an altitude of at least 1000 metres, while the separate night Infra-Red [IR]-based camera would be expected to accomplish this from 500 metres. This, along with other capabilities required, indicates the need for the platform to be a 'Level 4' autonomous system, something that DRDO-developed UAVs too claim to exhibit.

Interestingly the Army asks that the system also be compatible with Google Maps for navigation. In addition to regular scheduled maintenance & servicing obligations, it stipulates that the vendor respond within 24 hours of being informed of any faults in the system. If that implies making oneself present physically at location within 24 hours, it would be interesting to learn if its feasible for vendors based aboard to fulfil this requirement, unless they have an existing engineering operation in the country. Easier for Indian companies, OTOH, to be in a position to meet this challenge.

This increase in requirement, if the earlier news was reported correctly, makes for an interesting development. It would warrant a study to know if recent developments in the state of Jammu & Kashmir prompted this decision to scale up acquisition, barely a year after original plans were made known. Keep an eye out for developments.


http://www.aame.in/2013/08/indian-army- ... -mini.html

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vishvak » 30 Aug 2013 21:58

Is this a scale up or a follow up normal order. Doesn't look too high numbers. Google is there too? Bhuvan could be better no? Plus ability to lift more weight equal to its own ( ie another copy) can make a logistic option available.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 02 Sep 2013 23:04

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130826/jsp/opinion/story_17264032.jsp#.Uh9pwkqTmGk


RENEWAL OF A SACRED TRUST


BRIJESH D. JAYAL

August 26 , 2013


Of late the Indian armed forces have more often than not been in the news for reasons that appear to reflect a lowering of both personal and institutional moral and ethical standards. The reasons are many, not least the rising demand from the public at large for accountability and a round-the-clock electronic media hungry for sensational news. But beyond these fairly legitimate aspects of a vibrant democracy lie the general societal expectations — that members of our armed forces are expected to be a cut above the rest and, whilst society may be somewhat tolerant of the shenanigans of our administrators and politicians, it draws the line when the decay spreads to our armed forces. In a way, members of society bind members of the armed forces to an unwritten professional contract — that of mutual trust whereby they authorize the armed forces to use their awesome military power to ensure the people’s security, but within the bounds of moral and ethical codes of conduct and behaviour. A contract neither articulated nor legal — yet that has the sanction of a moral binding force, for what is a nation’s military without the moral support of its people?

Unfortunately, an open debate on the subject has been lacking in India, thus depriving all the stakeholders, namely the armed forces, the institutions of democracy, of governance and, most crucially, society at large to understand the complexities that drive the modern-day profession of arms and the necessity of a mutually supportive relationship among all the stakeholders. All this in a changing world where individualism and the pursuit of personal advancement, wealth and pleasure have come to take on greater relevance than human values of selflessness, service and sacrifice and where human rights and other pacifist movements look upon the profession of arms with a certain degree of disdain.

It is vital that even war with all the death and destruction that it entails must be conducted ethically and within the moral value system endorsed by society. Indeed, the professionalism of the military is judged not just by the achievement of various mission objectives, but by whether these were achieved through fighting a moral and ethical battle. It is by means of articulating the Hague and Geneva Conventions and the United Nations Charter that the international community has been able to differentiate conduct in what is called a ‘just war’ from the wanton killing of human beings.

Judgments about going to war fall in the political domain and the political executive must bear the moral responsibility for these actions and be able to persuade the society to which it is answerable. On the other hand, the just conduct of war covers the operational aspects that are the moral responsibility of the military, which in turn will be judged on its ethical and moral conduct, not just by the political leadership and society at large, but the international community as well.

There is always a moral dilemma that confronts military leaders. Not only do they have to cope with the stresses of professional decision making, they must do so under the benign eye of their political executives which, at the end of the day, answer to the people who elect them. This relationship can at times be problematic, considering that the working environments of the two — military and civil — systems are often poles apart. Any effort to intercept this line of communication by the bureaucracy acting as interlocutors or the media in the garb of public opinion would be contrary to the spirit of this relationship.

The State lets the profession of arms develop its own codes, ethics, professional expertise and skills provided they conform to moral values of society, whilst upholding the laws of the land. In fulfilment of this abiding trust between the society and himself, every professional military person is honour bound to protect the sovereignty and integrity of the nation even at the peril of one’s life. This is the oath that one takes, making the profession of arms unique. The foundations of this contract of unlimited liability on the part of the uniformed fraternity for the larger good of society are based neither on laws of the land nor rules of governance, but on mutual trust and moral and ethical conduct on the part of both parties.

And finally, whilst military professionals must aspire and strive to build for themselves a successful career, this must not be at the cost of professional integrity where careerism results in either not standing up for what is right, or for those under one’s command or, indeed, to further one’s career prospects by indulging in unethical professional or personal conduct.

The rising number of suicides in the armed forces is one of the symptoms of the prolonged use of the forces (more specifically the army) in countering insurgencies and the low-intensity conflict in Jammu and Kashmir. When the suicide of a soldier serving in Jammu and Kashmir was raised in Parliament, the prime minister urged members not to have a discussion, stating, “[T]his is a very small incident, which is being blown out of proportion. It is not good for the morale of our armed forces.”

That the people’s representatives accepted this view speaks of the trust deficit between the representatives of society, the government and the armed forces, when discussions on such vital issues are considered inconsequential and are avoided under the hollow pretence of protecting the morale of the armed forces.

The response to the recent desecration of our soldiers’ bodies as also earlier ones points again to serious fault lines in the mutual trust between society, the executive and its soldiers. It is for the first time in Indian history that families of such martyrs have gone public with their angst.

A society that reacts indifferently to the dishonouring of its armed forces not only risks losing the respect of its armed forces but demonstrates that the so-called spirit of mutual trust and sacred contract of unlimited liability have become one-sided to the detriment of the armed forces. In today’s connected world, the armed forces are not insensitive to this state of affairs. This augurs ill for the morale of the armed forces of India.

The moral questions that society must ask of itself are what obligations does it have to its armed forces professionals, its veterans, martyrs’ widows and those wounded and maimed for life, in return for their unlimited liability? The larger question is why is Parliament, which is the voice of the people, not doing its moral duty towards society, the government that it selects and the armed forces in enforcing moral and ethical accountability?

It is a reflection of the lack of trust that prevails today between the civil-military domains that the country has recently been witness to an ugly confrontation between a serving chief and the government in the Supreme Court. Veterans have been holding protest marches and returning their hard-earned medals to their supreme commander, who no doubt under advice of his bureaucracy, chooses not to meet them. When our soldiers’ bodies are desecrated, society and civil leaders fail to fathom the deep shame that every uniformed and veteran feels. Between the extremes of baying for blood or plain silence, the uniformed community expected to share their wounded honour and sorrow. Not one leader of consequence measured up to this moral moment whilst the electronic media whipped up sentiment to further its own interest.

This is proof, if it were needed, that the sacred trust lies in tatters. Institutional actions rather than individual promises are needed to recover our moral and ethical bearings.

Wars, democracies, societies and social norms are all moving with the changing times. In this dynamic situation there remains forlorn hope that morals and ethics that formed the basis on which the armed forces live and die would remain unchanged. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world. It is up to pragmatic societies and leaderships both civil and military to measure up to the changing security dynamics and to determine what will drive the new relationship between society, its representatives, the government and its armed forces so that there is both stability in the relationship and abiding faith in the moral and ethical values that they bring to both this relationship and in facing new security challenges.

This writer believes that it is still not too late to set up a 'blue ribbon commission' that will look at every facet of this fascinating and challenging relationship and come out with a blueprint for the nation and Parliament to discuss, debate and adopt. If the nation has the political vision and moral sagacity, the largest democracy in the world may also be the first to tread a new path — for strengthening the moral and ethical foundations of security institutions for itself and for other modern democracies to emulate.


The author is a retired air marshal of the Indian Air Force

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27444 » 03 Sep 2013 08:41

so its a case of Lock Stock Barrels

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Prem » 03 Sep 2013 09:30

A Hero Forgotten - Brigadier Sher Jung Thapa, MVC
Lieutenant General MS Shergill, PVSM, AVSM, VrC (Retd

http://www.usiofindia.org/Article/Print ... 69&ano=379
Brigadier Sher Jung Thapa retired in 1961 and settled in his home town of Dharamshala to lead a quiet, retired life. Highly respected and venerated, he took considerable interest in his surroundings and remained a pillar of society.It is the early 1970's and one (the author) is home on leave and ventures into pater's study. He2 is reading a letter and is in a pensive mood. One asks, if all is well. Silently, he hands over the letter. It is from Brigadier Sher Jung Thapa enquiring from an old comrade in arms, whether the recently announced monetary grant by the Punjab government to award winners, will include his eligibility as Kangra was once part of the Punjab."He was a remarkable man" pater said "what we did and achieve will pale in comparison against his stellar contribution", he went on. "Living on two 'Chapattis' a day for weeks, seven months on the defensive, he never despaired and today an ingrate Service and Nation cannot give him a decent allowance."Brigadier Sher Jung Thapa passed away in August 1999 aged 92, unnoticed by either the Army or the Nation. There were no obituaries, nothing. There is no memorial to his service rendered. At no school of instruction is there a battle study on Skardu or more importantly a study on the qualities or character of a man who withstood more than anyone. Still, his remarkable defence at Skardu will remain an abject lesson of what one can achieve if you have it in you. He had it in him in abundance. May this be a lasting tribute to a great personality.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Prem » 03 Sep 2013 09:42

WHEN YUSUF CROSSED THE LINE
http://cyclicstories.blogspot.in/2013/0 ... -line.html

WHEN YUSUF CROSSED THE LINE
A true story from the midst of madness and bloodshed, the ‘Kargil War’.


The early morning calm was rudely shattered by numerous blasts that rang out in quick succession. The sound was akin to repeated hammering of a wooden mallet on corrugated, galvanized iron (CGI) sheets. Soldiers sprinted hither and thither to find some cover while Paki artillery shells rained down on them and burst with ear shattering explosions. The intense Paki artillery barrage continued for about half an hour. When it ended, there was sudden silence and troops waited inside their bunkers for another half hour or so before they tentatively emerged from numerous hiding places and went about their routine morning chores. The loud explosions woke Brig Jasbir Singh SM (Jas), Commander of a Brigade in the Chhamb-Jaurian Sector, with a start. He sat up on the bare camp cot coughing and sneezing because of the dust and debris that filled his underground fortified bunker. It was still dark and he groped around for his mobile to check the time. Deep within the bunker he could not hear the whistling noise as the shells went overhead. The Paki heavy artillery bombardment had just taken place on the line of bunkers located on a ‘bund’ (raised ground). The bund ran along the ‘line of control’ (LoC) at Pallanwala. Operation ‘VIJAY’ (Kargil Operations) were in full swing between India and Paki and the intruding Paki forces were being physically removed from the rocky heights that they had surreptitiously occupied in Kargil, at the northernmost end of the LoC. The difficult operations in Kargil and Tololing were in full media glare and a shocked nation watched troops battle it out on the high mountains, on their TV sets, right in their bedrooms. But elsewhere in Pallanwala, in Chhamb-Jaurian Sector, out of the media glare, there was another incredible drama unfolding.It was a clear morning at the southern end of the LoC where Jas was located. Puffs of a few white clouds dotted the blue sky. After the mortar bombardment ended, he could hear the light hearted banter of his troops. They chatted and joked with one another as they spread their sleeping bags and clothes to dry in the warm sun. Occasionally, a loud peal of laughter could be heard as troops stretched themselves in the sun. The radio sets crackled with the Brigade Net operational natter, the voices sombre and full of static.
Suddenly there was a yell from inside a nearby concrete bunker, in which a day sentry manned a light machine gun (LMG). He was peering through a loop-hole at the flat land in front of the bunker. The flat land extended for about 200 meters and sloped into Munnawar Tawi River, along the centre of which ran the LoC. The flowing water in the river was only about half a meter at its lowest point.
On hearing the sentry’s alarm, troops rushed into their bunkers, expecting another round of deadly enemy barrage. Looking through the loop-holes, they were surprised to see the figure of a small boy, 10 or 11 years old, splashing through the river towards them. Field telephones were rapidly cranked and before the little boy had waded across the river, reports of this most unexpected event was flashed up the ladder from the company and battalion headquarters, right through to Jas. Jas instructed the troops to hold their fire and guide the boy through the mine-field adjacent to the river. The Platoon Commander, followed by some soldiers, climbed to the top of the ‘bund’. They stood in full view of the Paki defences across the river and shouted directions to the child, on how to negotiate the minefield. A wrong step here or there could have blown up the child or maimed him. Laboriously, as if in a daze, the child followed the instructions with hesitating steps. Soon the child arrived at the bunker’s entrance. He was dressed in a dark-grey coloured kurta-pyjama suit and had his pyjamas rolled up to his thighs. He seemed quite unperturbed though he had a serious expression on his face. He was made to sit under a large tree and gently questioned by the Platoon Commander. In Punjabi, the boy gave his name as Yusuf Mohammad and said he belonged to the large village across the river. When asked where he was going, he shyly related that his father had been extremely annoyed to see his poor Class IV results. He had scolded the boy volubly and even told him to leave the house. Disgusted with his father’s shouting, Yusuf had left the house and walked towards the fields adjoining the village. He had continued to walk through the fields, crossed the river and wandered into the Indian Army PostSince the boy said he had not eaten since the previous afternoon, Jas offered him a hot meal of rice, dal and vegetables. Jas chatted with him with paternal affection. From the answers Yusuf gave Jas, it became apparent that he did not know he had crossed the LoC. During the gentle prodding, Yusuf proudly said that his father was a retired ‘fauji’ who would soon become lambardar of his village. Since the artillery bombardment had taken place while the boy was walking to the river, he was asked if he had heard any loud bangs as he had approached the river. The observant boy thought a while and brightly remarked that he had passed a grove of large trees where ‘faujis’ were gathered and there had been explosions from tubes placed on the ground. With a smile he added that ‘faujis’ had been scampering about in a funny manner


After allowing enough time for Yusuf to be interrogated by the Paki soldiers and moved to rear areas, it was back to business for the Indian Brigade. Jas ordered a devastating barrage of mortar fire on the enemy’s gun positions hidden in the grove beyond the Paki forward line of defences. Soon the complete grove was obliterated. It was business as usual for the two opposing armies, each trying to kill the other with everything they had. That night both sides re-laid the minefield where the boy had crossed, the clear passage through the minefield which the child had crossed had been noted by either side.......

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pragnya » 04 Sep 2013 09:37

Image

According to reports, the China-Bhutan boundary talks have progressed to Thimphu’s satisfaction. Beijing has offered 485 square kilometers to Bhutan in exchange for just 269 square kilometers that it wants from its smaller neighbor. The two sides will be conducting a “joint technical field survey” in September.

The development is of immense strategic concern to India as any such border agreement between Bhutan and China would make the buffer zone between the ‘Chicken’s Neck’ (the Siliguri corridor) and the India-China border in Chumbi valley ever so narrower. A boundary agreement may also have Thimphu request New Delhi to review the stationing of the Indian Army in Bhutan.


Advantage China as India fumbles in Bhutan

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 04 Sep 2013 10:19

pragnya wrote:<SNIP>The development is of immense strategic concern to India as any such border agreement between Bhutan and China would make the buffer zone between the ‘Chicken’s Neck’ (the Siliguri corridor) and the India-China border in Chumbi valley ever so narrower. A boundary agreement may also have Thimphu request New Delhi to review the stationing of the Indian Army in Bhutan.


Advantage China as India fumbles in Bhutan[/quote]

Someone educate me - how does the Chumbi Valley and corridor get affected by this?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pragnya » 04 Sep 2013 17:51

^^^

RV

remember you had made a post on the chumbi valley (with maps/roads) on the forum or was it your blog post? can you point me to the post/discussion??

in the meanwhile assuming this as a done deal between Bhutan & China, what are the implications? can you do an analysis with maps? what IA can do to negate that?

TIA.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby williams » 05 Sep 2013 02:13

Losing the buffer zone means IA stationed in Bhutan will loose surveillance capability of the Chinese road that leads to Nathula pass.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vic » 05 Sep 2013 10:45

I think we should teach China a lesson by increasing the import of Chinese products and asking for bigger bribes for their Telecom, Power project exports to India.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby jamwal » 05 Sep 2013 11:28

vishvak wrote:Is this a scale up or a follow up normal order. Doesn't look too high numbers. Google is there too? Bhuvan could be better no? Plus ability to lift more weight equal to its own ( ie another copy) can make a logistic option available.


Google Maps, Bhuvan for real time aerial surveillance ? :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby krishnan » 05 Sep 2013 13:29

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 0905.htm#5

"Earlier, militants used to stay in their houses, take food at gunpoint and misbehave with their womenfolk," they said, adding, "Now, border dwellers are fully supporting the army against infiltrating militants".

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vishvak » 05 Sep 2013 14:32

Bhuvan system could help in flight over pre programmed terrain path as per specs. Or for that matter take path back when battery runs low and some parts of path where such auto mode flight is needed.


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