Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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kmkraoind
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby kmkraoind » 28 Sep 2013 16:05

Vijay Kumar Singh ‏@Gen_VKSingh:
#1 Tweet: A lot that has been said & shared by the media.However the complete story never seems to come out (1/3)
#2 Tweet: It is imperative that the people know the complete and the true story.
#3 Tweet: In the last 3 tweets I have attached the rejoinder from my interview with PTI, that was held on Sept. 27.....

Here are the accompanied images with the twitter messages.

Image
Image
Image

Karan M
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2013 03:45

Raj-ji, given what Ramana said earlier and so the VKS centric comments are off grounds - move them to another thread if you are really wishing to debate on the issue.....


Meanwhile Nalapat on the TSD...on another note, this just shows the Indian side has significant potential in creating capabilities for counter terror as long as it has the mandate...

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/arm ... encounters

‘Army’s secret Division would have prevented Samba-like encounters’
MADHAV NALAPAT New Delhi | 28th Sep 2013

Indian army soldiers gather behind a small wall during an attack by militants on an army camp at Mesar in Samba District, some 20km south-east of Jammu on Thursday, Sept 26, 2013.

he Samba attack by Pakistan-based elements could have been avoided if the Technical Services Division (TSD) had not been shut down a year ago, claim senior military officers who wish to remain unnamed. Speaking to them, it becomes clear that the decision by incoming Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Bikram Singh to shut down the TSD of the Army immediately upon taking charge from General V.K. Singh a year ago has been greeted with dismay by his own officers, especially those on the frontline of Pakistan terror. These officers say that the scrapping of the TSD is a major reason why there has been a spurt in cross-border intrusions over the past year, and warn that unless the organisation gets re-established, counter-insurgency operations will suffer.

"The decision to finish off TSD was political and not military. It was done to show (former COAS) General V.K. Singh in a bad light," a senior officer commented, while another claimed that "the TSD enabled our boys to get prior information on the movements of terror groups, so that these were caught before sneaking into India". He claimed that "despite the effort by the ISI to create a Kashmir Intifada by motivating youngsters to pelt stones at security forces, the situation was quickly brought under control." An officer claimed that the TSD was able to use technical means to operate deep within Pakistan and find out the trajectories of terror plots against targets in India. "At a cost of just Rs 20-30 crore annually, the Army was able to finally reach the actual sources of terror operations and not just tackle the symptoms," a former officer claimed.

The 26/11 Mumbai terror attack of 2008 showed the need for the army to go beyond its focus on the Line of Control and run sources deep inside Pakistan. In March 2009, a meeting took place to discuss this need, and then COAS General Deepak Kapoor asked Military Intelligence to work on a position paper, which was approved by Defence Minister A.K. Antony soon after its submission in October. The proposed TSD was to function under the Director-General of Military Intelligence, who would audit its funds and give operational directives. However, although the proposal had been cleared, it was not implemented until General V.K. Singh took over as COAS in April 2010. Among the tasks of the new unit were to keep a watch on separatists and other pro-Pakistan elements, as well as identify and record the groups and individuals seeking to destabilise the Kashmir valley. The getting of sources from within Pakistan was a high priority. The 2010 Intifada, which was countered less by standard police procedure than by an "information war" (Infowar) pointing out the harm the movement was doing to the physical and financial well-being of residents of the valley. A senior officer then in J&K admitted that "some NGOs which promoted peace and conciliation were funded by the TSD, but such expenditure was nothing compared to ISI cash pouring into the valley".

Among the examples of Infowar carried out by the TSD were the securing of numerous videos showing the maltreatment of locals in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir by Pakistan army personnel, and the humiliation that locals had to daily endure, besides their economic hardship. "We showed the valley that life was hell on the other side, and this hurt the pro-Pakistan groups who painted a rosy picture of the other side," an officer claimed. His colleague claimed that "at least three dozen terror plots against targets in India were discovered because of the TSD, and foiled". He added that the (26 September 2013) Samba attack "showed the problem created by removing the TSD 'eye' from the armoury of the army". He added that the attack showed that "military intelligence needed to operate not only just across the LoC but deep within Pakistan to be effective". He warned that the "peace group (now running policy) had taken away from the army the right to a robust response to provocations after first draining it of Infowar capability". Another claimed that "these days, only officers who are more adept in cultivating superiors rather than in fighting get ahead" and warned that this would "affect the success of war operations, where courage and improvisation are key to victory".

The officers claimed to have no knowledge of any TSD connection with an NGO that filed a complaint against the present COAS, General Bikram Singh, over the 2001 Janglath Mandi encounter, in which a 70-year-old local resident (who seems to have been indigent) has been identified by the army as a dangerous militant, who shot and killed the commanding officer of a unit as well as injuring then Lt Gen Bikram Singh. The NGO claimed that the alleged militant was only a bystander and that he was killed in the crossfire between two units of the army, one of which mistook the other to be terrorists. A source close to the present COAS says that Gen Bikram Singh "is a very bold officer and just because a man is 70 years old, does not mean he cannot be a threat". The military has consistently taken Gen Bikram Singh's side of the story, even while Gen V.K. Singh was COAS, and has refused to conduct any fresh investigations into the encounter that left both the alleged terrorist as well as an army officer dead and the present COAS injured.

About news reports that Gen V.K. Singh snooped on officials and politicians using off-air interceptors ordered by Military Intelligence, a source pointed out that only one of the interceptors was in army use, "and that on the LoC and not Delhi". He said that the other vehicles were in the possession of the NTRO. When then Defence Secretary (and now Comptroller and Auditor General) Sashikant Sharma ordered an inquiry into all such matters in July 2012, the Board of Officers concluded that there was no evidence of any wrongdoing. Interestingly, the role of the officer who actually ordered the purchase of the off-air interceptors has never been probed. This has, however, not prevented a spate of reports from coming out about the TSD, thereby obscuring its utility as a low-budget instrument both for collection of information about hostile elements and for the conduct of Infowar in sensitive theatres.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby RamaY » 30 Sep 2013 05:18

If true, and it is done to facilitate samba like situations and thus rekindling J&K issue, then it amounts to treason by UPA2. Looks like people are digging their own graves.

http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/2012/ ... owing.html

Sushupti wrote:‘Army’s secret Division would have prevented Samba-like encounters’

The Samba attack by Pakistan-based elements could have been avoided if the Technical Services Division (TSD) had not been shut down a year ago, claim senior military officers who wish to remain unnamed. Speaking to them, it becomes clear that the decision by incoming Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Bikram Singh to shut down the TSD of the Army immediately upon taking charge from General V.K. Singh a year ago has been greeted with dismay by his own officers, especially those on the frontline of Pakistan terror. These officers say that the scrapping of the TSD is a major reason why there has been a spurt in cross-border intrusions over the past year, and warn that unless the organisation gets re-established, counter-insurgency operations will suffer.

"The decision to finish off TSD was political and not military. It was done to show (former COAS) General V.K. Singh in a bad light," a senior officer commented, while another claimed that "the TSD enabled our boys to get prior information on the movements of terror groups, so that these were caught before sneaking into India". He claimed that "despite the effort by the ISI to create a Kashmir Intifada by motivating youngsters to pelt stones at security forces, the situation was quickly brought under control." An officer claimed that the TSD was able to use technical means to operate deep within Pakistan and find out the trajectories of terror plots against targets in India. "At a cost of just Rs 20-30 crore annually, the Army was able to finally reach the actual sources of terror operations and not just tackle the symptoms," a former officer claimed.

The 26/11 Mumbai terror attack of 2008 showed the need for the army to go beyond its focus on the Line of Control and run sources deep inside Pakistan. In March 2009, a meeting took place to discuss this need, and then COAS General Deepak Kapoor asked Military Intelligence to work on a position paper, which was approved by Defence Minister A.K. Antony soon after its submission in October. The proposed TSD was to function under the Director-General of Military Intelligence, who would audit its funds and give operational directives. However, although the proposal had been cleared, it was not implemented until General V.K. Singh took over as COAS in April 2010. Among the tasks of the new unit were to keep a watch on separatists and other pro-Pakistan elements, as well as identify and record the groups and individuals seeking to destabilise the Kashmir valley. The getting of sources from within Pakistan was a high priority. The 2010 Intifada, which was countered less by standard police procedure than by an "information war" (Infowar) pointing out the harm the movement was doing to the physical and financial well-being of residents of the valley. A senior officer then in J&K admitted that "some NGOs which promoted peace and conciliation were funded by the TSD, but such expenditure was nothing compared to ISI cash pouring into the valley".

Among the examples of Infowar carried out by the TSD were the securing of numerous videos showing the maltreatment of locals in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir by Pakistan army personnel, and the humiliation that locals had to daily endure, besides their economic hardship. "We showed the valley that life was hell on the other side, and this hurt the pro-Pakistan groups who painted a rosy picture of the other side," an officer claimed. His colleague claimed that "at least three dozen terror plots against targets in India were discovered because of the TSD, and foiled". He added that the (26 September 2013) Samba attack "showed the problem created by removing the TSD 'eye' from the armoury of the army". He added that the attack showed that "military intelligence needed to operate not only just across the LoC but deep within Pakistan to be effective". He warned that the "peace group (now running policy) had taken away from the army the right to a robust response to provocations after first draining it of Infowar capability". Another claimed that "these days, only officers who are more adept in cultivating superiors rather than in fighting get ahead" and warned that this would "affect the success of war operations, where courage and improvisation are key to victory".

The officers claimed to have no knowledge of any TSD connection with an NGO that filed a complaint against the present COAS, General Bikram Singh, over the 2001 Janglath Mandi encounter, in which a 70-year-old local resident (who seems to have been indigent) has been identified by the army as a dangerous militant, who shot and killed the commanding officer of a unit as well as injuring then Lt Gen Bikram Singh. The NGO claimed that the alleged militant was only a bystander and that he was killed in the crossfire between two units of the army, one of which mistook the other to be terrorists. A source close to the present COAS says that Gen Bikram Singh "is a very bold officer and just because a man is 70 years old, does not mean he cannot be a threat". The military has consistently taken Gen Bikram Singh's side of the story, even while Gen V.K. Singh was COAS, and has refused to conduct any fresh investigations into the encounter that left both the alleged terrorist as well as an army officer dead and the present COAS injured.

About news reports that Gen V.K. Singh snooped on officials and politicians using off-air interceptors ordered by Military Intelligence, a source pointed out that only one of the interceptors was in army use, "and that on the LoC and not Delhi". He said that the other vehicles were in the possession of the NTRO. When then Defence Secretary (and now Comptroller and Auditor General) Sashikant Sharma ordered an inquiry into all such matters in July 2012, the Board of Officers concluded that there was no evidence of any wrongdoing. Interestingly, the role of the officer who actually ordered the purchase of the off-air interceptors has never been probed. This has, however, not prevented a spate of reports from coming out about the TSD, thereby obscuring its utility as a low-budget instrument both for collection of information about hostile elements and for the conduct of Infowar in sensitive theatres.


http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/arm ... encounters

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vishvak » 30 Sep 2013 05:28

The entire article mentions no work on peace and people pretending to be peace mongers should be named.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2013 08:31

By e-mail

DNA, Sep 30, 2013

All eyes on supreme commander

The VK Singh controversy underscores the need for President to play a more active role

C Uday Bhaskar


While the so-called Rahul Gandhi bombshell, apropos “ordinance is nonsense”, has seized the national discourse and has long-term implications for the political scenario that will shape the governance of the country, the more damaging issue in relation to national security that merits objective scrutiny is what may be termed the General VK Singh controversy.

It may be recalled that a national daily (Indian Express, September 20) made a dramatic revelation about a confidential report submitted by Army HQ to the Ministry of Defence in March this year which inter-alia alleged that former Army Chief, General VK Singh, had misused secret intelligence funds to de-stabilise the elected government in Jammu and Kashmir.

In the following days, there has been a series of public statements and clarifications offered by the former Chief, which, in turn, has led to an explosive debate in the national audio-visual media by his well-wishers and detractors that has only served to vitiate the discourse and, thereby, caused both embarrassment and damage to India’s image and security interests.

At the heart of this controversy is a statement made by VK Singh, who, while defending himself, alleged that Army funds were used to pay certain politicians in J&K to ‘stabilize’ the region — and furthermore, that this was a practice that dates back to the dawn of Indian independence. The enormity and preposterous import of this statement — for those who heard it live on TV — is self-evident. To characterize this as a jaw-dropping revelation is an under-statement.

Some correction was attempted by VK Singh who sought to clarify the content and context of his remarks but the damage was done. Was the allegation made by the former Army Chief true? If so, has India been guilty of the most heinous and hypocritical charge of nurturing a sham democracy in J&K — and the extrapolation is that Kashmir was indeed under the jackboot of the Indian army. This, incidentally, is the core of what India has long maintained in relation to Pakistan — namely that it is Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK) that is still under the tight control of the Pakistan Army.
Mercifully, this allegation has been refuted by every former Indian Army Chief and in a joint statement (September 27), eight former Generals asserted that ‘no funds were ever provided by the Army, to any politician, political party or NGO in their tenures and nor would they have allowed that’. They further added to allay any anxiety that “the Indian Army is completely apolitical and that they do not dabble in politics and the Army takes great pride in this time honoured tradition.”


While this latest statement by the former Army Chiefs may offer some palliative, the VK Singh controversy needs to be reviewed in its entirety for it reveals certain abiding institutional infirmities in the higher defence management of the country. Civil-military relations in India have been less than appropriate and this is a trait that goes back to the Nehru years. The run-up to the 1962 war with China is a case in point. At the time, the political direction to national security was less than objective and the most undesirable form of factionalism within the Army was nurtured by the then Defence Minister Krishna Menon. Consequently, negligence to an unfolding challenge to national security was the leitmotif of that decade. The debacle of October 1962 followed and it compelled the then President S Radhakrishnan to chastise PM Nehru for rank ‘negligence and credulity’. The Supreme Commander of the Indian Armed Forces made the appropriate post-facto intervention within the Constitutional framework and encouraged a shattered PM to apply the corrective to the higher defence matrix.

{Bravo to SS Radhakrishnan!!!}

One could argue that a similar situation currently prevails, in that the challenges to national security have become complex and urgent and the VK Singh episode is symptomatic of the systemic inadequacies that need to be objectively reviewed and corrected. The need for a radical overhaul of India’s higher defence management was palpable in the aftermath of the 1999 Kargil war and it is a shame that 14 years later, little substantive progress has been made. Both the NDA and UPA governments are culpable of having neglected this issue and in many ways, the VK Singh episode is a result of this negligence.

What began as a totally avoidable date-of-birth controversy soon snowballed into an ugly situation wherein the Army Chief was petitioning the Supreme Court for redress since the political executive was unable to deal with the matter. At the time there were unseemly insinuations about factions within the Army and selective leaks to the media about shaping the line of succession to the post of Army Chief.


In early 2012, more leaks in the media followed that hinted at General VK Singh attempting a coup by moving military formations towards Delhi — again a preposterous charge — and the matter was allowed to fester without any firm resolution by the political establishment. More turbulence was in store, for towards the end of his tenure in mid 2012, a secret missive from General VK Singh to the Prime Minister found its way into the public domain and a slew of charges and counter-charges filled the air. Again, the matter remained suspended and an aggrieved VK Singh went into retirement.
The nation was hoping that this matter had been buried but, regrettably, the latest mid-September revelations about VK Singh seeking to topple an elected government, amongst other grave charges that have deep import for national security, have opened the Pandora’s Box again.
Given the uncertain political environment within the country — and the ordinance fiasco has only served to exacerbate matters — is there a case to review the role of the President? Should all eyes be upon the Supreme Commander only on the ceremonial occasion of January 26? The present incumbent of Rashtrapati Bhawan has an unmatched insight into the challenges to national security and could perhaps burnish the track record of his illustrious predecessor of 1962.

The author is former director of the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

Published Date: Sep 30, 2013

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Prem » 30 Sep 2013 08:36

Ex-Servicemen vent ire on appointment

http://newindianexpress.com/thesundayst ... 808942.ece

(Its the ASant again Charade keep going )
India’s 20 lakh retired servicemen are fuming over the Defence Ministry’s decision to hire former Joint Secretary (Pension) Harbans Singh, a retired Central Secretariat Service officer in the Department of Ex-Servicemen Welfare (DESW), allegedly violating reemployment rules. The irony is that Harbans—accused of bias against ex-servicemen draws Rs 60,000 as contractual monthly salary from the Armed Forces Flag Day (AFFD) funds meant for their welfare and rehabilitation.
The Indian Ex-Servicemen Movement (IESM), a nationwide outfit made up of retired defence personnel, has shot off an angry letter to Defence Minister A K Antony against Harbans’ appointment. It cites his previous antipathy towards servicemen during his eight-year stint in the ministry. “The fact cannot be ignored by us that most pension disputes and anomalies in pension policy implementation arose during Harbans Singh’s tenure,” said IESM’s officiating chairman Major General Satbir Singh. It is the responsibility of the officer concerned to resolve matters concerning ex-servicemen speedily. Harbans has been re-employed on Kendriya Sainik Board (KSB)’s non-government contractual employment terms, but functions as an officer on special duty in DESW. His job is to fight court cases involving pensions and disability pensions of soldiers.Satbir Singh alleged that “anti-military” sentiment in DESW is acute. Apart from being an impediment to positive welfare policies for the military community, it also played “a damaging and sadistic role” by misleading even the Defence Minister that retired defence personnel were “greedy” and “do not deserve” what they have asked for. “It is shocking that this government is using soldiers’ welfare funds to fight court cases against their pension and disability requests. Thankfully, the IESM has taken up this issue,” said Major Navdeep Singh, a Chandigarh-based lawyer.


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vasu raya » 30 Sep 2013 09:13

49 drones to keep an eye on China and Pakistan borders

Stepping up surveillance along the tense border of China and Pakistan, the Indian Army is equipping its troops with hand-held drones. It has floated a request for proposal for acquiring 49 mini unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) last month, which the army feels will be a “game changer,” like they have been for the allied forces in AfPak.

The imminent threat posed by India’s two inimical neighbours China and Pakistan has in recent years forced a rethink on India’s defense preparedness. The cabinet committee on security recently cleared an army proposal to create 72,000-strong Mountain Strike Corp, which will be deployed in the eastern sector facing China. The armed forces, it appears, also wants to send a clear signal to both the neighbours. Recently the Indian Air Force in a show of strength landed its C130J at the DBO in Ladakh — the world’s highest airstrip.

The army top brass feels the hand-held drones, which will be unarmed and used mainly for surveillance purposes will give it a “strategic edge” and “reduce costs” in manning high altitude and difficult terrains. To begin with, the UAVs will be employed in Leh and Ladakh sector (Northern Command) to keep an eye on Chinese activities and check terrorist infiltration from across PoK.

In April, the Indian Army was in for major embarrassment when there was Chinese incursion two days after PLA troops had set up makeshift posts. Since the perception of the Line of Actual Control differs widely on both sides of the Sino-Indian border, Indian and Chinese troops have often found themselves in the awkward situation of being face-to-face with each other while patrolling. “Also considering the sheer length of our borders, a patrolling party may not return to a particular point for days together,” said a senior army officer.

That situation will now change as the brand new UAVs will be able to provide real time data of any movement in a radius of at least 10 kilometers. “The mini drones will be fitted with high resolution cameras, including infra-red, for night surveillance. They weigh less than 10 kilograms and can be transported on the shoulders. They will also be equipped with recording devices and sensors for detecting movement,” a senior army officer told dna. The army has asked for UAVs, which should be able to work with at least one of the commonly used digital map formats. And interestingly, these UAVs should be able to work with Google Maps downloaded from the Internet.

The drones will be propelled by electric motor and will thus be “literally noise-free” once they attain a height of 500 metres above ground level. “That will also help them avoid detection,” an officer said. The ceiling for these hi-tech machines will be “1,000 metres above ground level,” with a cruise speed of over 70kmph. “The system should be sturdy and robust, which should be capable of withstanding day-to-day handling and usage by soldiers under combat conditions,” the army’s proposal claims.

So far, the Indian experience with drones/UAVs has been limited to the much bigger machines that are handled by the Indian Air Force - which is operating about 100 Searcher-II and 60 Heron UAVs - both from Israeli stables. India is also in the process of developing indigenous UAVs like Nishant and Rustom.


{Just hope this is a pilot project, 49 infantry level drones do not get much coverage}

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby pragnya » 30 Sep 2013 10:41

Arms and ammunition of the Indian Army

The most important tank in our inventory is the T-90 S. This is a third generation Russian tank. The tank uses a 125 mm 2A46 smooth bore gun and thermal imaging sights. India initially procured 310 T- 90S tanks of which 120 were delivered complete, 90 in semi knocked down kits and 100 in completely knocked down kits. Further a contract was signed for another 330 T-90 M tanks that were to be to be built with locally sourced raw materials. A third contract was signed for 347 upgraded T-90s which will be assembled in India. By 2020, India would have a total of 2,011 T-90 tanks working out to about 40 armoured regiments. There are also six additional regiments being raised for high-altitude conditions. The ammunition fired by the tank consists of Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) and High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) as also the Invar missile with a range of 6 Km. The Indian Army is upgrading about 1,600 T-72 tanks with night vision devices and the rest would comprise indigenous Arjun tank which is heavier than the T-90 and has a 120mm gun which fires APFSDS, HEAT, High Explosive (HE) and High Explosive Squash Head (HESH). The tank fires the LAHAT missile. This is a semi-active laser homing missile with a range of 8 km. The Arjun Mk II is undergoing trials with about 75 modifications.


so it seems T-90S number is going to exceed the 1657 totally planned for!! any space for Arjun?? apart from a max 4 regiments - that IA magnanimously wants to equip but even here orders for 2 regiments will only come after 93 odd mods in Mk 2 is proven to IA's satisfaction!!! :-?

Infrastructure Development: Key to a credible defence

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pranav » 30 Sep 2013 11:37

Smart rifle enables perfect sharp-shooter accuracy at 1000 meters, with no training required -


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pranav » 30 Sep 2013 11:53

ramana wrote:DNA, Sep 30, 2013

All eyes on supreme commander

The VK Singh controversy underscores the need for President to play a more active role

C Uday Bhaskar


This is going OT, but Rajinder Puri hints that the Ambanis would like Pranab-da to take charge in 2014 -

The only effective leader with the requisite stature, experience and political skill to obtain governance out of a badly fractured parliament happens to be President Pranab Mukherjee. According to some sources certain big business elements are zeroing in on his name. Whether Mr. Mukherjee could play an effective role in his present post to ensure stability is a matter of conjecture. It would imply a change in how our present system of government operates. By coincidence or otherwise in Mumbai which is India’s financial capital some unusual street hoardings have sprung up advocating a presidential system of government for this nation. One of these hoardings was displayed in Kemp’s Corner. The other possibility would be of course that circumstances compel the President to resign his post and become Prime Minister. There have been occasions in America when a President after demitting office has taken up another political post. In India C. Rajagopalachari after becoming the Governor General of India became the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. Though unusual, such an eventuality would not be impossible.

- See more at: http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Cont ... G8bOO.dpuf

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2013 21:25

Please continue the discussion in Indian interests thread and not here.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 30 Sep 2013 21:43

pragnya wrote:Arms and ammunition of the Indian Army

The most important tank in our inventory is the T-90 S. This is a third generation Russian tank. The tank uses a 125 mm 2A46 smooth bore gun and thermal imaging sights. India initially procured 310 T- 90S tanks of which 120 were delivered complete, 90 in semi knocked down kits and 100 in completely knocked down kits. Further a contract was signed for another 330 T-90 M tanks that were to be to be built with locally sourced raw materials. A third contract was signed for 347 upgraded T-90s which will be assembled in India. By 2020, India would have a total of 2,011 T-90 tanks working out to about 40 armoured regiments. There are also six additional regiments being raised for high-altitude conditions. The ammunition fired by the tank consists of Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) and High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) as also the Invar missile with a range of 6 Km. The Indian Army is upgrading about 1,600 T-72 tanks with night vision devices and the rest would comprise indigenous Arjun tank which is heavier than the T-90 and has a 120mm gun which fires APFSDS, HEAT, High Explosive (HE) and High Explosive Squash Head (HESH). The tank fires the LAHAT missile. This is a semi-active laser homing missile with a range of 8 km. The Arjun Mk II is undergoing trials with about 75 modifications.


so it seems T-90S number is going to exceed the 1657 totally planned for!! any space for Arjun?? apart from a max 4 regiments - that IA magnanimously wants to equip but even here orders for 2 regiments will only come after 93 odd mods in Mk 2 is proven to IA's satisfaction!!! :-?

Infrastructure Development: Key to a credible defence


These are the 310 upgraded T-90s ordered by the Army for the NE. Proven? A big joke... this T-90 was just recently displayed and the IA has generously decided to order these tanks..

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby kmc_chacko » 30 Sep 2013 22:30

What is the present status of Arjun Mk II

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby kmc_chacko » 30 Sep 2013 22:31

Karan M wrote:
pragnya wrote:Arms and ammunition of the Indian Army

These are the 310 upgraded T-90s ordered by the Army for the NE. Proven? A big joke... this T-90 was just recently displayed and the IA has generously decided to order these tanks..



Why IA so eager to buy T-90s & not Arjun or Karna. IA should learn to develop home grown Tanks rather than imported during war at two fronts these importing wouldn't help they will help our enemies.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 30 Sep 2013 23:10

Sir, you are preaching to the choir. The IA Armored Corp is so stuck in their ways, that it will take a miracle to change their thinking.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27603 » 01 Oct 2013 01:27

Why IA so eager to buy T-90s & not Arjun or Karna. IA should learn to develop home grown Tanks rather than imported during war at two fronts these importing wouldn't help they will help our enemies.[/quote]

Elementary my dear watson, to use the indigenious ones they need to be ready !!!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 01 Oct 2013 01:42

The MK1 is ready, has been ready for quite a while now. It outperformed the T-90 thoroughly, which latter tank is still struggling with NV issues and is yet being ordered in bulk. The Arjun MK2 is the one being put through trials, which are far more strenuous than anything the T-90 improved version has been put through, and despite that, only 248 odd orders are expected, as versus 310 easy ones for the T-90-2 or whatever its being called. So clearly, it has little to do with readiness but a lot to do with obduracy and a mind that is made up.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 01 Oct 2013 08:45

India, Nepal Joint Army Training Exercise - SURYA KIRAN V- in Pithoragarh

The Nepalese must have been impressed with the uttrakhand rescue. The sheer scale put up by armed forces might have impact in their China dealing.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pratyush » 01 Oct 2013 08:54

Karan M wrote:Sir, you are preaching to the choir. The IA Armored Corp is so stuck in their ways, that it will take a miracle to change their thinking.


It will take a huge numbers xxxxxxxxxxxxx. No thing else.
Last edited by Jagan on 03 Oct 2013 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Bad Taste Post


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 02 Oct 2013 14:20

IBNreporting it's a ghost village so if true then IA can use heavy artillery without any fear of killing civilians.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sagar G » 02 Oct 2013 14:37

Some more info

Fighting, the sources said, is still taking place in the village of Shala Bhata, where Pakistani irregulars and special forces personnel are using abandoned homes to fire on troops attempting to clear the area. Lieutenant-General Gurmeet Singh, commander of the Srinagar-based XV corps, said earlier this week twelve terrorists had been killed in the fighting — a statement that was misreported to have referred to a separate fidayeen strike on police and military installations in Samba. A spokesperson at army headquarters in New Delhi said he had no confirmation yet on Indian casualties.

“There’s no confirmation yet about who the infiltrators are”, a senior New Delhi-based military spokesperson said, “but some of the bodies we’ve recovered are wearing uniforms, which is suggestive. More important, the tactics and disciplined use of firepower by the infiltrators show they are likely special forces personnel, not just infiltrators.”

The intrusion, the sources said, took place on the night of 23 September, taking advantage of gaps in patrolling which took place when troops of the 20 Kumaon regiment were handing over charge to the 3-3 Gurkha, during a routine rotation of troops. The intruders took cover in unoccupied observation posts overlooking a nullah, or village stream, as well as abandoned homes.


In 1990, many inhabitants of the village’s 21-odd families left for Pakistan, fearing imminent fighting. They continue to live just across the Line of Control, in a hamlet also called Shala Bhata. Pakistani troops have a small encampment just across the Line of Control. The remainder of the village’s inhabitants were evacuated from the area in 1999-1999, amidst intense Pakistani fire directed at adjoining Indian military positions.

The occupation of the ghost village of Shala Bhata began less than a week before Prime Minister Singh held talks with Prime Minister Sharif in New York. Their discussions centred around measures to deescalate tensions on the line of control. The two Prime Ministers ordered their Directors-General of Military Operations to hold talks to defuse growing tensions.

Pakistani troops last occupied positions on the Indian side of the Line of Control in July, 2002, taking Loonda Post— part of the same sector where fighting is now underway. India responded, on that occasion, by using eight Mirage 2000 aircraft to drop precision-guided bombs on to the four occupied bunkers. Following the air strike, troops supported by 155-millimetre howitzers retook the positions.

The daylight air assault, government sources told Firstpost, had been authorised at the highest political leavel, and were intended to demonstrate that India would not hesitate to escalate the conflict if provoked.


Don't get your hopes high that the same will be done now.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby morem » 02 Oct 2013 14:43

badmash upto his usual tricks , shades of Kargil

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 02 Oct 2013 15:56

Unbelievable...this is what follows from weak leadership. The nut cases across the border get encouraged and start their usual tricks. We are truly back to square 1.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby darshhan » 02 Oct 2013 16:16

Indian Army spokesperson saying(Live) that there is no ghost village in the area. However there has been an abnormally strong infiltration attempt consisting of 30-40 terrorists/Paki army soldiers. He is advising media not to believe in rumors. Ghost village story is a concocted one.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby darshhan » 02 Oct 2013 16:22

The officer is saying that infiltrators had shown high level of proficiency in special ops tactics.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby darshhan » 02 Oct 2013 16:24

I am sorry. He is no spokesperson. It is Lt. Gen Gurmeet Singh GOC 15 Corps.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby negi » 02 Oct 2013 16:25

Brigadier Mahalingam should write more often.

General VK Singh’s case: It is time the country stood up to truth

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 02 Oct 2013 17:51

There seem to be two parallel threads discussing this...Border Watch and Indian Army.

While venting for the umpteenth time about our useless political dispensation might be good for some, do ponder why the Pakis felt they had to dominate India in an area that overlooks one of their key lines of communication....

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 02 Oct 2013 18:21

Point is they feel like this everytime they come up with nihari indigestion etc - but it stands to reason they are doing all this because they think they can get away with it. In 1999 too, one of the driving factors was their belief that the NDA Govt was a weak lameduck one, and would not be able to respond decisively, and an ex ISI head went on record in Defence Journal bragging that the Indian Army was so weak, underequipped etc that it would be defeated easily. They were disabused of that notion. In contrast, we seem to have again gone back to the earlier days after showing them that we could and would hit back.

In any conflict, the enemy's perception of capabilities is a key factor, and lets face it, that is where the talky-talk all the time stuff has backfired big time. That and the near complete absence of enabling the IA's ambitious Cold Start doctrine, announced with fanfare but still hampered by lack of proper arty and so forth.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby darshhan » 02 Oct 2013 18:59

Karan M wrote:Point is they feel like this everytime they come up with nihari indigestion etc - but it stands to reason they are doing all this because they think they can get away with it.
.......
In any conflict, the enemy's perception of capabilities is a key factor, and lets face it, that is where the talky-talk all the time stuff has backfired big time. That and the near complete absence of enabling the IA's ambitious Cold Start doctrine, announced with fanfare but still hampered by lack of proper arty and so forth.


Karan M ji, What you are saying is right. The problem is India's defence-defence approach is no longer going to work. The current Paki Army-Jihadi system is far too emboldened for that. After all they have managed to make America withdraw from Afghanistan and before that SU. If I were a Paki general I would also be feeling on the top of the world after defeating two superpowers in last 30 years over protracted conflicts. Hence Pakis are high in light of current events in Afghanistan. They are feeling that now they can push India around.

To deal with this evolved Jihadi mindset, India will have to go on offensive. Unfortunately the current Govt is totally incapable of taking even the simplest of steps leaving only a defensive and reactive option available for the Military. But no matter how alert your army is or how extensive your border fence and surveillance capabilities are, a determined band of hostiles (schooled/led by special forces) can do significant damage to your Army Patrols/cantonment/airbases/infrastructural nodes etc. Our current posture means we will just be carrying out mopping up operations and little more.

Not to mention India is perceived as an extremely soft state which will only lead to an increase in such attacks.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vishvak » 02 Oct 2013 19:47

Don't forget we also have over enthusiastic individuals on this side of porqer all over LoC wherein under conspiracy theories of weirdest order political interference is afflicted to counterinsurgency operations. Yup anti terrorist operations are subjected to political interference because of some weirdest of rumors and conspiracy theory blabber and chatter. The bluffmasters are then called pissniks who blabber nonsense while sainiks have to face brunt of rabid dogs thrown from across the border.

I can't believe we don't have a bunch of NGOs that make every such interferences and each bluffmaster accountable.
Last edited by vishvak on 02 Oct 2013 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 02 Oct 2013 19:56

Apart from "loss of face" faced by many posters on BR and certain news anchors, try and analyze what the Pakis will gain from this latest incident....

1) Get their soldiers picked off one by one in yet another operational defeat for Pak army.
2) Strengthen the Indian army's case for no withdrawal of AFSPA, or from Siachen, so another strategic own goal by Pak army.

...while India's inability to preempt tactical surprise ala Kargil is indeed a concern, also consider Pakistan's usual strategic suicide, i.e. if one wants to have a balanced analysis and discussion.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 02 Oct 2013 20:49

"Apart from "loss of face" faced by many posters on BR and certain news anchors, try and analyze what the Pakis will gain from this latest incident...."

I dont understand what you gain by such pointless provocative statements? Is it compensation for some slights you receive in your real life perhaps? Almost all of your posts are tinged with contempt towards the forum or your fellow posters, who are obviously not as intelligent or as perceptive as you clearly are, and are hence unable to perceive how insightful your comments are. Its tempting to respond to you in the same vein, but only then we'll have to suffer more complaints and claims from you on the how the forum has devolved et al.

As to the rest of your points - 1 and 2, the simpler answer could merely be that it is yet another attempt by the PA to create a situation wherein NS's options for talking to India are limited. The larger issue being that such obvious acts of provocation are done because the PA does not fear the retaliation since its limited and manageable.

There could be a bunch of reasons for the PA's actions, the problem is in that you are clearly unable to debate any of them in a polite manner and choose to be consistently obnoxious.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby abhik » 02 Oct 2013 21:17

RajitO wrote:... try and analyze what the Pakis will gain from this latest incident....

1) Get their soldiers picked off one by one in yet another operational defeat for Pak army.
2) Strengthen the Indian army's case for no withdrawal of AFSPA, or from Siachen, so another strategic own goal by Pak army.

.... also consider Pakistan's usual strategic suicide, i.e. if one wants to have a balanced analysis and discussion.

:roll:
Do you really know what the pakie's were planning to do? How did you come to a conclusion that this was "strategic suicide" on the part of the pakies? Media reports don't seem to clarify on what exactly is going on the ground.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby darshhan » 02 Oct 2013 21:20

One very noticeable observation. Pakistanis have vastly increased the quality of the terrorist infiltrators in India. This is probably a byproduct of successful Indian COIN ops and Paki operations against Nato in Afghanistan. The first reason is forcing them to up their game and the second enabled them to try out new tactics and experiments. So now we have these terrorist groups which are trained much more rigorously(including in survival and CQB aspects), possess top of the line gear and are often led by SSG personnel. Furthermore they are much more ruthless compared to their 90's counterparts; ready to up the ante without any hesitation.

More patrols, more sentries and more sensors will only help you so much in stopping such attacks. And the important question is how many targets can you defend. Today it is a cantonment. Tomorrow it will be a bridge. Day after that will be a senior Army officer. This can go on and on.

The answer to this Paki war on India does not lie in raising more guards and more fencing. This only demonstrates our defensive mindset. The Answer lies in imposing our own version of 4G Warfare on Pakistan (this is only for starters). No quarters given and none asked.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ashish raval » 02 Oct 2013 23:05

Why can't IA use donkeys during patrol to carry Gatling guns and heavy machine guns so that pigs can be responded much more immediately and with heavy hand.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 02 Oct 2013 23:51

ashish raval wrote:Why can't IA use donkeys during patrol to carry Gatling guns and heavy machine guns so that pigs can be responded much more immediately and with heavy hand.


Err IA does use mules. I am not sure what you are referring to here?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby tsarkar » 03 Oct 2013 00:52

RajitO wrote:Apart from "loss of face" faced by many posters on BR and certain news anchors, try and analyze what the Pakis will gain from this latest incident....
1) Get their soldiers picked off one by one in yet another operational defeat for Pak army.
2) Strengthen the Indian army's case for no withdrawal of AFSPA, or from Siachen, so another strategic own goal by Pak army.
...while India's inability to preempt tactical surprise ala Kargil is indeed a concern, also consider Pakistan's usual strategic suicide, i.e. if one wants to have a balanced analysis and discussion.


While you may want to have a balanced discussions in the peaceful environs of wherever you are, warfare seeks to disrupt the balance of power, dispositions, strategic advantages, etc.

Pakistani strategy since 1965 has been “creep & consolidate” whenever they perceive lack of strong central leadership in India will prevent a counter-response.

In 1965, they perceived Lalbahadur Shastri to be weak. Similar today. Its not a local operations, but something well planned in Rawalpindi.

And it works. They still occupy some Kargil peaks. What Brigadier Arun Aul did was capture some adjacent peaks overlooking their supply lines.

Long term goal is to wear the Indians out to accept the status quo, thus legitimizing “creep & consolidate”.

Here is a previous incident http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1918/19180220.htm

This has been the strategy of Islamic conquest of India since AD 1000, whenever India lacked strong central leadership, and Pakistan's considers its national duty to continue that strategy. The strategy that Pakistan is following is a very well known strategy called as Lebensraum ("living space")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

Adolf Hitler described: "We are overpopulated and cannot feed ourselves from our own resources". The policy of Lebensraum implicitly assumed the superiority of Germans as members of an Aryan master race who by virtue of their superiority had the right to displace people deemed to be part of inferior races. As such peoples deemed to be part of inferior races living within territory selected to be Lebensraum, were subject to expulsion or destruction


Consider the parallel with Pakistan today. The Pakistanis are overpopulated without any meaningful economic means. They consider themselves an Islamic martial race. Hence Lebensraum is perfectly justified for them.

Sadly, citizens or posters like you or ShauryaT do not learn from history.

The following words are clichéd, but still hold good, that Freedom is not free, and eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby negi » 03 Oct 2013 01:08

ashish raval wrote:Why can't IA use donkeys during patrol to carry Gatling guns and heavy machine guns so that pigs can be responded much more immediately and with heavy hand.

Problem is rot has set in everywhere.


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