Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 12 Nov 2013 11:49

rohitvats wrote:Posted by Prasun Sengupta in comment section of his blog:

Just finished reading ex-IA COAS Gen (Ret’d) V K Singh’s autobiography, titled, ‘Courage And Conviction’. The contents are quite a revelation & will make any Indian citizen’s blood boil, that’s a given. For instance:

13) How, thanks to the TSD, the IA was aware of the attempted coup in The Maldives way before anyone else in India was.


Have ordered the book - will post review once I get it and can read the thing.


The demonstrated capabilities of the TSD must have caused a lot of unseemly itching in bureaucratic and political langotes :D

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pratyush » 12 Nov 2013 11:59

^^^

I don't understand the fuss over the TSD. AFIK, it was created on the express orders of the MOD, following the 26/11. So how can it be an initiative of the Gen VKS.

Moreover, following the orders of a civilian authority cannot be an act of insubordination, by Gen VKS. So why is he being victimized for this act.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 12 Nov 2013 12:05

IIRC, we never had a inkling of the TSD until the VKS affair. Only now are we hearing how super-duper it was

So, never know that the TSD might have been shut down but a new clone might have opened in some other name. Find it hard to believe that MoD/GoI sanctioned unit would be let go so easily, esp when there has not even been a govt change.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 12 Nov 2013 14:06

I will take a stab at answering that if I may. Over the last few months I have been trying to speak as extensively as possible to contacts in the army and IAS and intelligence. My intention was to get some insights into the overall national security environment, specifically why PAK had been so aggressive recently and why we were so restrained. Also I had heard second hand mid last year from an intelligence guy that a massive op had been going on by the ISI and a smaller one by the Americans (not working together) to infiltrate our polity and government for various objectives. He warned that our nuclear scientists, RSS, Modi etc would be targeted and a lot of other what I thought was very alarmist stuff. So I wondered if he could be right.

What I have gathered is the following

- VKS vs Deepak Kapoor went to VKS and the rank and file in the army was genuinely happy about it. A lot was expected of him.
- And he tried to deliver but came up against the bureaucracy. For ex Additional or Joint Sec (Army) was vacant for a long time and a lot of approvals for day to day budget utilization were stymied. He kicked up a fuss (as he should have) and started getting a reputation as a trouble maker. Similar story on capex and modernization.
- He resisted interference. For example there was a lot of pressure to prosecute army for two incidents in the valley (driven by political considerations for vote bank reasons by Cong high command). Army had always said that due process must be followed and most of the allegations were wrong. VKS just said it more strongly. Again bad name as intransigent. Started getting compared to Vishnu Bhagwat.
- So people realized he meant business. AKA did not care (he spends most of his time on Kerala politics) nor MMS (he is too distant from forces to care) but bureaucracy used this to beat the old drumbeat of civilian power vs military power to the politicians. And tried to cut his tenure to 2 years.
- Here VKS screwed up. He decided to fight giving credence to their view that he was 'dangerous' and his case was not very strong. This dovetailed nicely with the objectives of the intelligence operation. They had not focused on the army as they did not see it as having any influence at all but when the issue became big they decided to take advantage of it.
-Unfortunately VKS's letter to PM came right in the middle of all this (he had planned to do this much earlier and it wasn't connected with the age issue) and the shit hit the fan (leaked by the PMO). MMS and AKA woke up and expressed displeasure. Open season on him with coup news etc etc.

That's the chronology but the crucial thing is that as a result of all the coup rumors etc VKS started taking a close look at int and talking to the int community. Wanted to get to the bottom of all this and so did some elements in the int community as PM also asked them to take a look. What they found was worrying - pretty visible traces of the two ops I talked about earlier. Tentacles are feared to reach far and wide. If my int contacts are right then the Vizag killings of two ATV connected personnel are also connected and much more.

I know this all sounds pretty difficult to digest but this is what I heard. I hope its wrong.

There is pressure from the govt to defang all our int agencies and the TSD just stumbled into it. VKS is being hounded because a) he is not liked by the powers that be and b) its a great spin off benefit of the Paki and US ops and c )most importantly he refuses to go quietly and fade away. I mean whoever heard of a senior Gen walking with aam admi? Anil Chait. Lets get rid of him too.

My original intention was to know why we are not responding to the Pakis. I gathered the above in course of all the discussions I had on this issue. I will post separately on that very soon.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 12 Nov 2013 14:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby merlin » 12 Nov 2013 14:11

Pressure from MMS to defang our int agencies and the BJP wants to go soft on him. Nice work BJP.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 12 Nov 2013 14:25

That's the chronology but the crucial thing is that as a result of all the coup rumors etc VKS started taking a close look at int and talking to the int community. Wanted to get to the bottom of all this and so did some elements in the int community as PM also asked them to take a look. What they found was worrying - pretty visible traces of the two ops I talked about earlier. Tentacles are feared to reach far and wide. If my int contacts are right then the Vizag killings of two ATV connected personnel are also connected and much more.

As if news wasn't depressing enough these days, even more scary news on national security front! :x

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 12 Nov 2013 14:39

I saw an article recently that a high level TSP mole in indian security apparatus named "honey bee" helped them for 26/11 planning.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/hone ... 22274.html

I wonder how many rabinder singhs are processing their EB1 GC "outstanding researcher" category now :((

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby putnanja » 12 Nov 2013 19:49

Army kicks off high-tech “digital soldier” project

The Indian Army has moved a step closer to the battlefield of the future, where command networks know the precise location of every soldier and weapon, with whom generals can exchange reports, photos, data and verbal and written communications.

On Monday, Army headquarters called in fourteen Indian companies and issued them an Expression of Interest (EoI) for developing a Battlefield Management System (BMS). The BMS will integrate combat units --- armoured, artillery and infantry regiments, infantry battalions, helicopter flights, etc --- into a digital network that will link together all components of the future battlefield.

While precise costs are still unclear, vendors competing for the contract say the army expects to pay about Rs 40,000 crore for developing and manufacturing the BMS. This includes the software architecture as well as the hardware that will link together every component of some 500 combat units, each having between 500-900 soldiers.

...
...
Vendors have been given four months to form consortia, engage technology partners (who may be foreign companies), frame their proposals, and submit detailed proposals. Those will be evaluated by an Integrated Project Management Team (IPMT), which will then select two DAs.
...
...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SBajwa » 12 Nov 2013 20:28

by Garg

Lalmohan wrote:
no sir, the history of india is one of survival and endurance against overwhelming odds


It is not my friend. You are reading the wrong history.

Unfortunately it is not your fault as real history of Bharat is suppressed in this country due to political reasons.

The country that is called 'Bharat' which existed during Mahabharat war included Kabul (Gandhar desh), Punjab and Sindh to current Bengal (including Bangladesh).

Now Afghanistan is sitting on Kabul. Pakistan sits on Punjab and Sindh. Most of Bengal gone to Bangladesh.

When we say 'Hindu', it means local people who lived on this sub-continent prior to Muslim invasions (Hindu is derived from Sindhu which is a short form of Sindhu-desh. Sindhu-desh was the gateway for foreigners (like Arabians and Egyptians) for a very long time.

I must stop here. If you want a discussion, you can start a new thread.


Garg! Welcome to the BR!

Mr. Lalmohan has been esteemed member of this group from last 10+ years! Just like many others. So! when you preach us about our Bharat we need to tell you that we have known this from ages. Most of the members on this forum are 40+ and avid learners of History, Defense and Science. This forum has been up and running ever since Internet was invented and these topics have been beaten to death. Thus we realize that India has the best record in the world with "survival and endurance against overwhelming odds".

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nachiket » 13 Nov 2013 00:00

rohitvats wrote:Posted by Prasun Sengupta in comment section of his blog:

.....

Have ordered the book - will post review once I get it and can read the thing.

Please do. From what PS has posted, it appears that the MoD is actively working to undermine India's defense preparedness. This doesn't seem to be merely a case of the usual bureaucratic lethargy and hideous incompetence that we have grown used to.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 13 Nov 2013 00:08

Garg et al. All that is highly OT for this thread. Please stick to news and discussions.

Thanks,

ramana

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 13 Nov 2013 09:26

Ramana, OT but doesn't VKS disclosures about how modernization was deliberately stalled validate your theory about modernization being delib sacrificed at altar of peace process?
Talk about deliberate acts of omission.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2013 09:45

Singha wrote:I saw an article recently that a high level TSP mole in indian security apparatus named "honey bee" helped them for 26/11 planning.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/hone ... 22274.html

I wonder how many rabinder singhs are processing their EB1 GC "outstanding researcher" category now :((


That would be sad if true that an Indian Security person played a key role in killing hundreds of innocent Indian in that tragic incident.

Hope the IB and IA CI team are on their toes hunting the "honey bee" and nailing him/her , Looking at the code name given he/she seems to be an important asset for ISI.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Nov 2013 13:56

or it is just disinformation to create confusion

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vinod » 13 Nov 2013 14:14

Singha wrote:I saw an article recently that a high level TSP mole in indian security apparatus named "honey bee" helped them for 26/11 planning.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/hone ... 22274.html

I wonder how many rabinder singhs are processing their EB1 GC "outstanding researcher" category now :((


While I think there may be agents working for ISI, the above doesn't make much sense. I don't think "honeybee" has any truth in relation to mumbai attacks atleast with respect to the reasons they quote - ie. to identify training limitations! Moreover, any Tom, Dick and Harry knows our constables are given sticks, no anti-terrorism training, if they have guns - its outdated. So, no need to have an big insider mole to tell you that. Even if they are commandos, it is impossible to guard every place where there are more than 10 people.

If such an attack happened in US or UK, they would be equally inadequate. This is actually one of the things they fear most now - probably more than a nuclear attack! They know the training is not going to be much help and hence their focus on intelligence and their efforts in busting terror modules before they act!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Rahul M » 13 Nov 2013 14:15

nothing works better to paralyze an intel agency than to get it chase its own tail.

chances of ISI having a high level mole is very bleak, that's not their MO.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pratyush » 13 Nov 2013 14:57

^^^

But they can get lucky.

OTOH, considering the politically inept bunch in Delhi, we don't need the ISI to penetrate us in order to damage us. The Delhi bunch will do so happily out of their own stupidities.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Austin » 13 Nov 2013 15:29

Never underestimate the ISI , they turned out to be good when required be it 1993 Mumbai blast , Kargil or 26/11 while our CI was caught sucking their thumb.

They have enough sympathiser in India given the right amount you can pay or a Canada Visa to sweeten the deal.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Nov 2013 21:51

I would tend to agree with Rahul M and Pratyush. Training manuals etc are no major intelligence and ISI MO is not into deep moles because they dont need them. The ops that I was referring to are not so much intelligence gathering than operational and influencing policy and politics. These are not sophisticated or subtle operations but very damaging all the same. Can also be rooted out very quickly. But just no political will.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 13 Nov 2013 22:14

Continuing from my earlier post on finds from speaking to army, int and bureaucracy. The feeling is that we are not responding to Pak because (this covers a lot of different issues but all have some bearing to the sitution)

- Strategically we have become very defensive in our thinking after blunders by successive govts and lack of clarity at a political level
- Till even a couple of years ago despite the strategic hamstrings local responses happened. Some of them taught our friends across the border severe lessons but they were infrequent and not part of an overall strategy. Arty and heavy mortars are best response but were hardly used to effect both because of equipment shortages and orders. Ceasefire also played a role but they violated and we did not respond adequately.
- However now even local responses are frowned on. With all respect to him Gen Bikram Singh is percieved as having a lot of difference between his rethoric and action. Does not stand up to PMO and support his commanders. Lot of pressure from govt. Some say his position is really difficult most say screw it. He should act like a PS Bhagat or Hanut Singh and do what he thinks is best. All agree moral courage in top commanders is not what it used to be. Too careerist. But also say that army is just not used to such a divergent view on national interest between polity/bureaucracy and forces. They dont get how the govt can be so blind to national interest
- Good commanders are shunted out and persecuted. Some of that has always happened (Hanut Singh and PS Bhagat for example) but this is very prevalent now. PMO exerting a lot of pressure. MoD less but still not supportive.
- Those commandments issued by COAS are a symptom of the problem - no appreciation of the issues, ask for the impossible and conflicting, talk nonsense. This hurts initiative. COI (Court of inquiry) culture getting embedded. No one wants to take responsibility for anything.

To end on a positive note the feeling is that if hands are untied and we had some arty we would create constant Diwali. The Paki learns his lessons if well taught and we are good teachers. Just need to be allowed to teach ;-)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 13 Nov 2013 22:38

A political COAS will never be as effective as the times currently demand. JJS and DK did not cover themselves in glory either.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Hiten » 13 Nov 2013 23:59

:rotfl:
importing possibly 200 of these for the T-series vehicles
Image


via http://www.aame.in/2013/11/indian-army- ... overy.html

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 14 Nov 2013 09:08

However now even local responses are frowned on.

There ends my wet dream ( and fervent hope) of some actual behind the scenes punishing of TSP happening! :cry:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Pranay » 14 Nov 2013 21:15

http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/ ... ingh/?_r=0

Posting in full...

A Conversation With: Former Indian Army Chief Gen. Vijay Kumar Singh
By HARI KUMAR

Gen. Vijay Kumar Singh was the chief of the Indian Army from March 2010 to May 2012. His tenure ended on a bitter note after a dispute over his date of birth and consequent date of retirement from the military service. Mr. Singh disagreed with the Indian government and went to the Supreme Court of India, where he lost his case.

After his retirement, he courted even greater controversy as he joined the anticorruption protests led by the activist Anna Hazare, made startling revelations about secret funds used to win the loyalties of politicians in Jammu and Kashmir, and appeared in public with the Bharatiya Janata Party’s prime ministerial candidate Narendra Modi.

India Ink spoke to Mr. Singh, who has recently published his autobiography, “Courage and Conviction.”

Q.
Why do you think the Line of Control [the disputed border between the Indian and Pakistani-controlled parts of Kashmir] has witnessed increased hostility and fighting between the Indian and Pakistani militaries in the past few months? There have been killings and beheading…

A.
I don’t know. You should ask the people who are in charge. They should tell you. So far as I am concerned, I stopped asking questions after May 31, 2012, when I retired. I haven’t kept in contact with commanders on ground.

The men on the border are the same. The senior commanders may have changed, but in the units, the junior leadership is the same. Obviously, there must be something.

Q.
What’s your assessment of the situation?

A.
My assessment is that somewhere, I think, the politico-military signaling, or messaging, may have developed a faultline. I will put it this way: The way the other country perceives you is how it takes action. If it perceives and does a cost-benefit analysis and finds that it is not going to benefit, obviously it will not do certain things. What is this message that you are conveying?

Q.
After the killing of five soldiers of the Indian Army at the Line of Control, certain sections of Indian opinion have been concerned about the capability and response of the Indian Army.

A.
There are serious concerns in my mind also as to how this happened. What has been the action taken after this? You can’t lose five people like this. Somebody has to undertake serious introspection, and somebody has to ensure that remedial measures are taken. I don’t know whether this is done or not. I’m not sure.

Q.
There might be some mistakes on the part of the Indian Army…

A.
Yes that’s what I am saying. Serious introspection is required as to how such a thing could happen. Now, I am not privy to how the incident has taken place except for what keeps coming in the newspaper. There are a lot of newspaper reports that I don’t believe because I don’t know what they are writing.

Q.
Can the local commanders take action? Or do they have to wait for a political message?

A.
Obviously. That’s what I am saying. What is it where the messaging has gone wrong? I don’t know. I can speak with certainty about it till the day I retired. In my tenure, the soldiers and the commanders were clear about how a particular situation has to be dealt with. They knew that they had my backing as the chief and I would stand by them. I have always felt that mistakes are of two types — one is of intention and one is of judgment. A mistake of judgment must be always pardoned, but a mistake of intention can never be pardoned.

Q.
Do you think a different army chief would have dealt the problem differently?

A.
I don’t know. I really don’t know and I am not guessing on it, except for saying that the messaging may be wrong. It is a series of incidents. When you say that 40 people infiltrated into our territory and you don’t recover a single weapon, don’t find a single body. You have lost people, it worries me. There is something wrong.

Q.
How do you see the security situation in the coming decade in terms of China and Pakistan?

A.
The security situation depends on how you deal with your neighbors, what kind of measures you have taken. Security situation depends on how your adversaries perceive you. If they know that they will get a bloody nose, then they will stay away from you. If they know they can push you around, they will push you around.

Our relationship with Pakistan has never been fruitful because there is a serious lack of trust between the two countries. The Line of Control remained stable till the Kargil War in 1999. Somebody took advantage of it after the political leadership had gone all out to woo the other side. But that trust was betrayed.

Today, you shake hands and say everything will be fine. Will it be? Each Indian feels it that way and there’s a question mark. Can you trust that man? Can you trust their leadership? It is not a question of creating conducive environment because somebody wants to be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize or whatever it may be. It must result in something positive. Till the time a trust deficit remains between India and Pakistan, we have a problem.

Q.
What are the alternate strategies of dealing with Pakistan?

A.
There are ‘n’ number of things.

Q.
You recently appeared in a public gathering with the B.J.P leader Narendra Modi. Are you planning to join B.J.P. and contest elections?

A.
If I share a platform with you, sit with you and have dinner in your house, does that mean I am going to join The New York Times?

Q.
Mr. Modi has been declared the prime ministerial candidate of the B.J.P.

A.
He was declared the prime ministerial candidate two days before the rally. He was supposed to come for this ex-servicemen rally for which he was invited and so was I. I don’t think he suffers from any allergy that would have afflicted me. Actually I find this interesting and everyone has asked me this question.

I have asked a counter question. You have been invited to an ex-servicemen rally to espouse the cause of ex-servicemen. And I’ve asked people whether they have heard his speech. In his hourlong speech, did he talk of anything political? He talked about defense, national security and the welfare of ex-servicemen. Did he talk about politics or about overthrowing a government? He didn’t.

Q.
Do you intend to join politics?

A.
I haven’t thought of it so far. The unfortunate part is that when I speak from my heart, people say you must be hiding something. So far, I have had no options to join politics. I don’t know what the future holds. I live in the present.

Q.
You were active in Anna Hazare’s anticorruption movement. He has been rather quiet for a while.

A.
He is not well, so we are not holding any rallies. We had planned to travel to Bihar, but we have not been able to. We haven’t held certain events because he was operated upon. That is why you see a little cooling down. It has nothing to do with public response. It is more to do with his health. We are not like those people who will put him on fast and force him to carry on. We care for him.

Q.
There has been a lot of talk about the Indian Army’s weapons procurement system being entangled in corruption.

A.
The whole system needs to be looked at again. This system is not delivering.

Q.
There have been numerous crashes of Indian Air Force planes. We hear a lot about corruption and scandals within the Indian military establishment.

A.
That’s why we need to re-look at the system. We need to see what changes are required and push those changes. The whole procurement system is one where we need to take a look. The Kargil Committee made certain recommendations, and we haven’t implemented them. Naresh Chandra Committee came after 10 years and they have made certain recommendations.

I think a time has come where we have to say “no more committees.” Let us change things for the better. One change is the integration of the armed forces with the bureaucracy. It has not happened. The higher defense management and organization, the system of indigenous weapon production needs a re-look. It needs to be geared up. The research and development and the procedural issues attached to these need to be looked at.

(This interview has been lightly edited and condensed.)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby sum » 15 Nov 2013 05:02


Q.
You recently appeared in a public gathering with the B.J.P leader Narendra Modi. Are you planning to join B.J.P. and contest elections?

A.
If I share a platform with you, sit with you and have dinner in your house, does that mean I am going to join The New York Times?

This is how (foreign) and Desi DDM should be treated!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2013 11:00

rohitvats, I would like you to read up on the various military theories of the interwar years and see how they were applied in WWII. And I would like to draw lessons for India.

I have this faint suspicion that the so called IA penchant for set piece battles is the right one. All these dash to Indus is bokwas

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Austin » 16 Nov 2013 11:11

Q.
You recently appeared in a public gathering with the B.J.P leader Narendra Modi. Are you planning to join B.J.P. and contest elections?

A. If I share a platform with you, sit with you and have dinner in your house, does that mean I am going to join The New York Times?


Very Witty response by the General :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 16 Nov 2013 11:58

ramana wrote:rohitvats, I would like you to read up on the various military theories of the interwar years and see how they were applied in WWII. And I would like to draw lessons for India.

I have this faint suspicion that the so called IA penchant for set piece battles is the right one. All these dash to Indus is bokwas


Well...full points for timing the post.

I will start reading the Deep Battle Concept of the Red Army as conceptualized by it's main author. This happened in the interwar period but the general was killed in famous purges by Stalin. Red Army ressurrected itself by 1943 and starting applying this concept to effectively take on Germans. It is precursor and basis for famous Operational Maneauver Groups. America Air Land Battle is American version of similar thought process.

Use of artillery as "maneuver by fire" is product of this Soviet philosophy. But it is a complex and voluminous topic so will take some time.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2013 20:17

Will send you another account of Blitzkrieg.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Avik » 16 Nov 2013 21:56

lots of new nuggets on the Mountain Strike Corps from Nitin Gokhale's blog.....
http://nitinagokhale.blogspot.com/

The blog claims the MSC will have three divs , instead of two; the corps will be numbered 17 etc...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vishvak » 16 Nov 2013 22:09

[OT begin.]
nteresting how all corps are mostly in north since its army obviously so all are near to land border than sea one. Next strike corps could be raised near seas perhaps to learn new lessons and even integrated.
[OT end.]

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Misraji » 17 Nov 2013 04:15

rohitvats wrote:Well...full points for timing the post.
I will start reading the Deep Battle Concept of the Red Army as conceptualized by it's main author. ....

Could I have the name of the book please, Rohit Saar?
Wikipedia tells of one such book being classified by Soviets.

--Ashish.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 17 Nov 2013 04:29

Misraji wrote:Could I have the name of the book please, Rohit Saar? Wikipedia tells of one such book being classified by Soviets.
--Ashish.


Well, if you go to this link on Deep Battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deep_battle its quotes many books under bibliography.

I'm referring to this book which I bought from flipkart some time back:

Simpkin, Richard. Deep battle: The Brainchild of Marshal Tukhachevsky. London; Washington: Brassey’s Defence, 1987. ISBN 0-08-031193-8

Flipkart link -http://www.flipkart.com/deep-battle-brainchild-marshal-tukhachevskii/p/itmd96x3z8u3b4wc?pid=9788181581792&otracker=from-search&srno=t_1&query=Deep+Battle&ref=696f593e-aa53-4bff-8424-23d0ad6fcb1f


The major book on the subject by an author who gets quoted widely on the subject is this:

Glantz, David M., Col (rtd.) Soviet military operational art: in pursuit of deep battle, Frank Cass, London, 1991a

But the book on flipkart is super expensive - ~INR 4,000. It is there on amazon as well; I think around USD 60.

Lot of material is available online as well. The website linked below has very good historical perspective on operational art from perspective of different nations. But it is heavy reading and will require patience.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/OpArt/

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27808 » 17 Nov 2013 04:30

Gen V.K. Singh's book as reviewed by Col Shukla. Fleeting parts have a positive review but overall somewhat negative.

I was really disappointed by, for example, the part about the pidgin English - is the good Colonel an arbiter of Indian English now? This for me confirmed that there is bias and an agenda of sorts from the good Colonel. I suppose his riposte will be that he is merely proffering an opinion and writing as a columnist!

The final para has a comment which should cause some consternation - " an army chief that went rogue." I don't know about defamation (libel) laws in India, but where I am, I could certainly mount a good case for defamation against the good Colonel.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com.au
Last edited by member_27808 on 17 Nov 2013 04:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 17 Nov 2013 04:54

Avik wrote:lots of new nuggets on the Mountain Strike Corps from Nitin Gokhale's blog.....
http://nitinagokhale.blogspot.com/ <SNIP>.


Thanks for the link.

Finally, some information is seeping out into the public domain for us armchair analysts to wreck their brain over. Couple of points:

1. Ever since the news of MSC came about the location was being referred to as Panagarh. This abdul had commented that we need to understand the location of the constituent divisions of the Corps to really understand the action plan.

2. It was surmised that given the location of Panagarh on major electrified trunk node of IR, placing Corps HQ in Panagarh made sense. As did expanding the airbase and positioning big lifters. But what was important to understand is the location of divisions - the sword arms. Now, that has been resolved. The 2 x Mountain Divisions will be based in Panagarh while Corps HQ itself will be based in Ranchi. This means that bulk of offensive potential is east of the Siliguri Corridor and can be transported to western theater pretty quickly. However, a word of caution - we need to see spread of brigades.

3. This is going to be one big Corps with 3 x mountain divisions. Given the geographical reality of non-existent lateral connectivity and nature of mountain warfare, any offensive will require good amount of troops. Further, troops when committed to any south-north axis will remain committed. IMO, MSC will be able to open two major such south-north offensive axis with formations in reserve. But Command and Control in mountains is a big issue - as is logistics.

4. Placing of divisions east of Siliguri corridor further raises some questions - The arc of action on eastern LAC spreads from Siliguri Corridor/Chumbi Valley to Tawang to Eastern AP. Again, given the terrain, distance between these sectors and mobility issues, such a large body of troops cannot be switched from A to B to C. Therefore:

(a) Are we going to commit troops on offensive in Sikkim sector only?

(b) For offensive action in AP, the formations will have to be moved lock-stock and barrel for offensive to Brahmaputra Valley from where they can fan out along required axis. There is going to be some sort of OR decision making going to happen here.

5. Ranchi housed 23rd Infantry Division which of all the things is part of 1 Strike Corps (based in Mathura and part of South-Western Command). So, it does travel some distance to its AOR in desert with other elements of the Corps. With coming of MSC in east with its constituent divisions, this division may move west. Basically, that much closer to the border which cuts down the time of mobilization. Expect some cantonment to be expanded for this and temeprature being raised in Pindi.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Misraji » 17 Nov 2013 05:53

rohitvats wrote:Well, if you go to this link on Deep Battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deep_battle its quotes many books under bibliography.

I'm referring to this book which I bought from flipkart some time back:

Simpkin, Richard. Deep battle: The Brainchild of Marshal Tukhachevsky. London; Washington: Brassey’s Defence, 1987. ISBN 0-08-031193-8

Flipkart link -http://www.flipkart.com/deep-battle-brainchild-marshal-tukhachevskii/p/itmd96x3z8u3b4wc?pid=9788181581792&otracker=from-search&srno=t_1&query=Deep+Battle&ref=696f593e-aa53-4bff-8424-23d0ad6fcb1f


The major book on the subject by an author who gets quoted widely on the subject is this:

Glantz, David M., Col (rtd.) Soviet military operational art: in pursuit of deep battle, Frank Cass, London, 1991a

But the book on flipkart is super expensive - ~INR 4,000. It is there on amazon as well; I think around USD 60.

Lot of material is available online as well. The website linked below has very good historical perspective on operational art from perspective of different nations. But it is heavy reading and will require patience.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/OpArt/


The Mil site is really cool. Thanks.
There are lots of old papers on of the Mil sites about Soviet army organization, Tank training and stuff.
I will dig it up.

Elements of the Glantz book can be read at Google-Books.
Its a good one.

--Ashish

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 17 Nov 2013 10:40

Misraji wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Well, if you go to this link on Deep Battle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_deep_battle its quotes many books under bibliography.

I'm referring to this book which I bought from flipkart some time back:

Simpkin, Richard. Deep battle: The Brainchild of Marshal Tukhachevsky. London; Washington: Brassey’s Defence, 1987. ISBN 0-08-031193-8

Flipkart link -http://www.flipkart.com/deep-battle-brainchild-marshal-tukhachevskii/p/itmd96x3z8u3b4wc?pid=9788181581792&otracker=from-search&srno=t_1&query=Deep+Battle&ref=696f593e-aa53-4bff-8424-23d0ad6fcb1f


The major book on the subject by an author who gets quoted widely on the subject is this:

Glantz, David M., Col (rtd.) Soviet military operational art: in pursuit of deep battle, Frank Cass, London, 1991a

But the book on flipkart is super expensive - ~INR 4,000. It is there on amazon as well; I think around USD 60.

Lot of material is available online as well. The website linked below has very good historical perspective on operational art from perspective of different nations. But it is heavy reading and will require patience.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/OpArt/


The Mil site is really cool. Thanks.
There are lots of old papers on of the Mil sites about Soviet army organization, Tank training and stuff.
I will dig it up.

Elements of the Glantz book can be read at Google-Books.
Its a good one.

--Ashish


Also

Synchronizing Airpower and Firepower in the Deep Battle (The Cadre Papers)
author(s) R. KENT LAUGHBAUM Lt Col, USAF

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 17 Nov 2013 11:59

Tiwari wrote:Gen V.K. Singh's book as reviewed by Col Shukla. Fleeting parts have a positive review but overall somewhat negative.

I was really disappointed by, for example, the part about the pidgin English - is the good Colonel an arbiter of Indian English now? This for me confirmed that there is bias and an agenda of sorts from the good Colonel. I suppose his riposte will be that he is merely proffering an opinion and writing as a columnist!

The final para has a comment which should cause some consternation - " an army chief that went rogue." I don't know about defamation (libel) laws in India, but where I am, I could certainly mount a good case for defamation against the good Colonel.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com.au


Yes, Shukla shows his political leanings quite clearly here.

Making the preposterous allegation that the government allocates the defence budget each year with the specific intention of taking much of it back for populist expenditures, he speculates on the MoD’s reaction after “sabotaging” expenditure one year --- “I am quite sure there must have been lot of clinking of glasses and high fives amidst the powers that be (sic).”
----

What's preposterous about this? Many rtd folks in the past have mentioned this issue.
Shukla is a died in the wool INC guy, so there lies the problem.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 17 Nov 2013 17:14

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... ery-strong

15 November 2013
‘The Arms Lobby Is Very Strong’
General VK Singh has perhaps been India’s most controversial Army chief since Independence. Excerpts from an interview with him

BY Mihir Srivastava EMAIL AUTHOR(S)
Tagged Under | politics | Army chief | General VK Singh
ENCOUNTER
"I have not joined any political party. I could have joined any [of them], including the Congress, after I retired."
"I have not joined any political party. I could have joined any [of them], including the Congress, after I retired."

General VK Singh has perhaps been India’s most controversial Army chief since Independence. For a year’s extension in office, he took the Government to court over a dispute on his age. Since his retirement in May 2012, he has been politically active. He has taken part in political rallies, protests and dharnas, and even made public statements on an issue that conventional wisdom would consider a State secret. His autobiography, titled Courage and Conviction, has just been published. “Shoot!” he commands. “Shooting is your job, I just have some questions,” Mihir Srivastava of Open tells him. He laughs. They are seated in Room No 83 of the Annexe of India International Centre in New Delhi. Excerpts from an interview:

Q Why are you so motivated to tell your story?

A David [Davidar of Aleph] motivated me. There are two things I tell of in this book. My DNA: the way my schools shaped me, made me what I am: absolutely forthright. Secondly, I have seen so much in my lifetime and reached a particular position. It will help youngsters learn suitable lessons.

Q Autobiographies are usually a retrospective justification of one’s actions. It is like arguing one’s case without the fear of being told to shut up.

A (Laughs) See, I don’t want to lead a simple predictable retired life. I felt that I still have a job to do as a citizen of this country. I want to reclaim India. I strongly feel that we need some changes urgently to function as a nation if we are to prosper. The prevalent situation will only sink us deeper.

Q This book will make people in the Government and Army unhappy with you. You present a grim picture of how the defence establishment functions.

A That is a reality.

Q How strong is the arms lobby? Do they remote control the Defence Ministry?

A The arms lobby is very strong. I can give you many examples. Do you remember that the Rafale file [the Eurofighter that India is likely to buy from a European consortium in a deal worth $12 billion] was found lying in some colony somewhere in Delhi? It is a top secret document. Government [information] percolates. [Arms dealers] know where a particular file is, who is handling it, what are the notings made on it. They would know when the files reached my office. They know everything.

Q According to your book, you didn’t want an extension. Yet, you took the Government to court—the first time by a serving Army chief—to get your age reduced by a year so you could continue in office for a year more.

A For 36 years, all my documents said that I was born in 1951. I made a mistake when I was fifteen-and-a-half years old while entering my age in a form. It was sorted out. The NDA, UPSC cleared it. This issue was raised to attack me.

Q Why were you so inconvenient to the Government that it was so eager to get rid of you?

A In the Tetra deal [involving irregularities in the Army’s purchase of these all-terrain vehicles from Bharat Earth Movers Ltd], a lot of money was made. Sukhna [the scam] had shaken us to the core. I was for a full investigation and transparency.

Q You made many enemies in the Defence Ministry.

A I took measures that created a phobia in people. The system was suffering. I pointed it out…

Q It seems to me that you had some reasons for orchestrating a coup, as was reported by The Indian Express.

A (laughs) The report said I moved two units of the Army without permission towards the capital. It was actually a routine movement. And why would I need to move two units [for a coup] when there is already a big Army presence in the capital? Can you [conduct a] coup with just 1,000 men in a country like India?

Q How did you react to the article?

A To be frank, I laughed. (laughs) The headlines were so bold—as if a holocaust had happened. I had met Shekhar Gupta [editor- in-chief of the newspaper] for lunch before the story was published. He invited me to his Walk the Talk show with him. I didn’t say anything. His office called to confirm, I told them that I’d never promised. The [Indian Express] story was meant to discredit me and create an alarm.

Q Who was the source of this story? Was it someone within the Government or Army? It was a fairly detailed story.

A I have mentioned it in my book. The sutradhar of the story was somewhere else. The source of the story was a high official in the PMO. It was all lies.

Q If I as PM had read this article, I would have called you and sought an explanation. Did you get any call from the Government after this story?

A No, not at all. No one called. The Defence Minister [AK Antony] was clarifying to the media that there is no truth in it.

Q Given the grim state of affairs you have highlighted in your book, did the idea of a coup ever cross your mind?

A The Indian Army is far too [well] wedded to the Constitution of the land and to democracy. The Army does not think of a coup. [It] thinks of how best to defend the nation, to serve the nation.

Q So what did you do? Didn’t you call up Shekhar Gupta and ask what he’d written?

A No. We issued a notice. Twenty days later, [the paper] carried an apology, hidden somewhere on page 8. No bold headline this time. (laughs) The Press Council also didn’t do much about it.

Q You are controversial because you spilt State secrets that embarrassed the Union. You said the Army paid money out of its secret funds to J&K ministers.

A Yes.

Q Six of your predecessors, Army chiefs since 1990s, have denied your claim.

A They did.

Q Do you still stand by your statement?

A Yes I do. There is no going back on it.

Q Do you have political ambitions?

A I have not joined any political party. I could have joined any [of them], including the Congress, after I retired. Large segments of rural [India] have to develop. I have attended many farmer rallies. I want to highlight issues that I feel strongly about. I am for Gram Swaraj. There is a desperate need for change, village schools, health. Development has to go to the villages.

Q You have been weighing your options, aren’t you? You were seen with Arvind Kejriwal and then with Narendra Modi. Your appeal rests in the embarrassment you have caused the UPA.

A You need good people in the political system.

Q Are you going to contest elections?

A I haven’t decided so far. I am giving myself time. Let’s see. If people persuade me to contest election...

Q So you are open to persuasion?

A I will take a call at that time. If you look at the constitutions of various parties, there is not much to choose from. They are all so good on paper. What needs to be seen is how much translates into action.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 18 Nov 2013 09:11

Rohit

US Army manual on German Army

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/index.html


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