Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Aug 2014 01:45

JE Menon wrote:>>Greek language evolved from the Anus tribe.

Good luck convincing the Greeks, especially after appropriate translation...


<Overheard in the elevator> Who spoke Greek now?

Pulikeshi
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Pulikeshi » 09 Aug 2014 01:58

Has anyone tried to map this language tree in the following ways:

1. One of the axis is time - to show which branches were how long/short
2. Diversity of daughter languages - meaning Sanksrit has 20 (example no. not real) daughters, where as Germanic has 10, etc.
3. When did Vedic Sanskrit become Sanskrit (classical) and more importantly, when did PIE become Vedic Sanskrit according to PIEtians?

What this will allow us to do is to see longevity and diversity of progeny.... just curious...
The tree right now - curvature and all is not saying much to me...

Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Aug 2014 02:40

Although "tree structures" of language evolution are popular, we should take it with more than a little grain of salt. Language (at least some spoken words) are likely to be very old. Plus there are a lot of intermingling due to borrowings/back-and-forth migrations etc. So, a beautiful looking tree structure might please the linguist but might be over-simplistic

Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Aug 2014 03:39

I have summarized the key findings of the 3 genetics papers that Shiv & I were discussing (which RajeshA and others had discussed before) in a blog post. Feedback would be great

Genetic Studies & the Aryan theories

KLP Dubey
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 09 Aug 2014 04:30

Prem Kumar wrote:Although "tree structures" of language evolution are popular, we should take it with more than a little grain of salt. Language (at least some spoken words) are likely to be very old. Plus there are a lot of intermingling due to borrowings/back-and-forth migrations etc. So, a beautiful looking tree structure might please the linguist but might be over-simplistic


I agree. Plus, the "tree" shown in the post above is completely muddled up and it is not possible to quickly adapt it with Sanskrit at the bottom. Instead of beating around the "bushes" and "trees" what is needed is for someone to compile a dictionary listing words of "Indo-European" languages as corrupted versions of words abstracted by Sanskrit from the Vedic sounds. Basically, remove the imaginary "PIE" word from Pokorny's dictionary and simply replace it with the Sanskrit word.

This will serve as the missing and long-awaited "Appendix" to the Pratishakhyas (that belong to the Shiksha branch of Vedanga), in which it is said that the corruptions of Vedic sounds are overall too numerous to be listed.

Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Aug 2014 06:47

This is where a Veda/Sanskrit/Linguistic expert(s) can help. If someone can explain language variation as a Pratishakya Appendix, it will be nothing short of a revolution! It will meet with a lot of resistance of course & it needs to fit existing data of various languages/cognates

But unless someone does this exercise, PIE will be around

Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Aug 2014 09:18

I had an interesting exchange on Teetar with neha_aks, explaining AIT & genetic evidence against it. One question came up which I found interesting. Is it possible for tribes to have split off 12K years before present (irrespective of AIT or OIT) with no subsequent interaction?

My answer was "No" because:

a) We have the Mittani evidence: Indra/Varuna etc in treaty as well as in Rig Veda: the counter to this is that both tribes might have memories of really old (12K year old) Gods like Mitra, Indra etc which they recalled in their respective Treaty & Rig Veda. Which leads to the 2nd point .....

b) Grammatical similarities: the invocation of Indra etc in Mittani tongue is grammatically similar to Rig Veda (& even the sequence in which Mitra, Varuna etc are recalled). Its unlikely that similar grammar would also have been maintained by 2 separated cultures over several thousand years

Are there any other reasons that make it unlikely that the PIE split happened 12K years ago? Or is it possible? Note that the answer is equally applicable whether we go with the AIT or OIT model

Btw, any idea who is manasataramgini (‏Teetar handle @blog_supplement)? Has an interesting blog about a variety of topics: Hymns from Vedas, history (not just Indian) etc. The blog link is here & it looks like multiple people are contributing to it (thought I think only 1 person manages the Teetar handle)

His blog: http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Rahul M » 09 Aug 2014 09:25

please start a new thread with a link to this page in its first post.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 08 Jan 2017 20:30

writing here so as to mark it/map it for my quick access

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 17 Jan 2017 00:01

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ought.html
[b]Indus Valley civilisation may pre-date Egypt's pharoahs: Ancient society is 2,500 years older than thought

With its impressive pyramids and complex rules, Ancient Egypt may seem to many the epitome of an advanced early civilisation.
But new evidence suggests the Indus Valley Civilisation in India and Pakistan, famed for its well-planned cities and impressive crafts, predates Egypt and Mesopotamia.Already considered one of the oldest civilisations in the world, experts now believe it is 8,000 years old - 2,500 years older than previously thought.Based on radiocarbon ages from different trenches and levels the settlement at Bhirrana has been inferred to be the oldest (>9 ka BP) in the Indian sub-continent,’ the experts wrote in Nature’s Scientific Reports journal. They used also used ‘optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) method’ to check the dating and investigate whether the climate changed when the civilisation was thriving, to fill ‘a critical gap in information … [about] the Harappan [Indus Valley] civilisation.’
While more tests are required, the study suggests the Indus Valley Civilisation pre-dates those of ancient Egyptand Mesopotamia, which are also famed for their impressive ability to build organised cities.It’s thought the civilisation spread across parts of what is now Pakistan and northwest India in the Bronze Age and at its peak, some five million people lived in one million square miles along citadels built near the basins of the Indus River.While the ancient people relied upon heavy and regular monsoons between 9,000 and 7,000 years ago to water their crops, after this period, evidence at Bhirrana shows people continued to survive despite changing weather patterns.‘Increasing evidences suggest that these people shifted their crop patterns from the large-grained cereals like wheat and barley during the early part of intensified monsoon to drought-resistant species of small millets and rice in the later part of declining monsoon and thereby changed their subsistence strategy,’ they continued.However, changing the crops they grew and harvested resulted in the ‘de-urbanisation’ of cities and no need for large food storage facilities. Instead, the people swapped to personal storage spaces to look after their families.‘Because these later crops generally have much lower yield, the organised large storage system of mature Harappan period was abandoned giving rise to smaller more individual household based crop processing and storage system and could act as catalyst for the de-urbanisation of the Harappan civilization rather than an abrupt collapse,’ the team wrote.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Arjun » 23 Jan 2017 07:14

Prem wrote:However, changing the crops they grew and harvested resulted in the ‘de-urbanisation’ of cities and no need for large food storage facilities. Instead, the people swapped to personal storage spaces to look after their families.‘Because these later crops generally have much lower yield, the organised large storage system of mature Harappan period was abandoned giving rise to smaller more individual household based crop processing and storage system and could act as catalyst for the de-urbanisation of the Harappan civilization rather than an abrupt collapse,’ the team wrote.

New technology leading to suburbanization....Indians seem to have pioneered it !

hanumadu
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby hanumadu » 26 Jan 2017 10:50

There has been a new thread for this topic since a long time and is 50 pages long
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6848.

Admins please lock this thread.

ramana
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 27 Jan 2017 06:22

Locking this one.


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