Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 15:45

The Horse Hypothesis


We are often tripped over the horse evidence that the AIT-Nazis keep demanding. So here is my little hypothesis.


Indians had domesticated the Indian wild ass, the Khur around 9000 BCE, and the Zebu by around 8000 BCE. They started using the Khur and Ox for pulling wagons by 7000 BCE. The wheels used were initially solid. The wagons were initially used for transporting raw materials and agricultural produce only.

Around that time Sarasvati-Sindhu Civilization also started to have trade with the Arabian Peninsula. The Arabian horse had been domesticated by 7000 BCE in Arabian Peninsula, more probably even a thousand years earlier. The horse became quickly a popular commodity in India for import from the Arabian Peninsula by 7300 BCE.

Due to horse's higher agility and speed, the Indian craftsmen decided to make the best use of it and opted to make their wagons much more faster. For this they invented the spoked-wheel! Now the wagon also became a vehicle for the royalty in India by 7200 BCE.

India was so enamored by the horse, the Vedics started making comparisons between the Sun and the Horse. Thus the legend of Indra with his Horse was created. Thus the horse got the title Aśvaḥ which earlier used to be used for the Sun's energy.

The trade with the Arabs flourished and objects from Mehrgarh and its sister cities were in great demand in Arabia. There came to be such an alliance between the Vedic Civilization of Sarasvati-Sindhu area and the Arabs, that those who used to bring the horses to India, sometimes by sea and sometimes over the land route over Iran and Afghanistan, they were affectionately called the Maruts and great praise was heaped upon them.

The Vedas speak of this Arabian Horse, and describe this horse as having 34 ribs. The Central Asian horse has 36 ribs. The Central Asian horse was still undomesticated.

Around 7000-6000 BCE, the Druhyus also started leaving India and started heading North to Afghanistan and beyond. They already knew of chariots and the horse, but were more used to Khur. The Khur is also called Gur by the Iranians. In fact on their migration North, the Druhyus took many Khur with them, because that animal was widely available. It was also the animal which was more sure-footed for the mountain passes.

The word Equus comes from Khur and not from Aśvaḥ as many Indologists in the West tend to believe.

This was the time when Rigveda was being composed in India, and both Iranians and Vedic Aryans were collaborating.

In the East, Ramayana was being played out!

When the Druhyus reached Central Asia, they found out that the Steppes were full with wild horses. They used the spoke-wheel technology they were familiar with from India, technology they had brought along with them with wagons drawn by the Khur, and made some design changes on the chariots in the coming thousand years. Later on using these remodeled chariots they were to expand into Europe and be called Aryans, for Aryans they were, being of the Chandravanshi dynasty. During their time in Central Asia, the Druhyus had mixed with other races as well, like Uralic races, and assimilated those in them, more or less imposing their language on them, but their original Sanskrit-similar language changed due the substrate Uralic languages. While in the Steppes, the Druhyus had differentiated themselves into many groups. These groups marched into Europe at different times taking different paths. Each group now had a slightly different language due to the substrate-affected pronunciation change. In Europe, again these groups mixed with other settled European communities, and thus their language changed further.
Last edited by RajeshA on 19 Jul 2012 15:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 19 Jul 2012 15:52

Sanskrit English
Sanskrit German
Sanskrit French Dictionaries at one place

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 15:59

So many uses of vIrya. It seems we Indians were fascinated by the word, and every man was full of it!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 19 Jul 2012 16:06

शांति मंत्र ऊं सहना ववतु सहनौ भुनक्तु सहविर्यम् करवावहे तेजस्विना वधीतम् ... also has saha - vIryam
: May we Work Together with Energy and Vigour, (to kill the idea of halfwitz)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 16:30

Arise Arjuna Foundation

About Them
In every human being there is an Arjuna - lost in today's world and mired in the quicksand of materialism. We are endeavoring to awaken this Arjuna in everyone Inspired by readings in the Bhagavad Gita, the study of Vedanta and the timeless Wisdom of the Ancients, the Arise Arjuna Foundation has been formed for the betterment of all Mankind. The Foundation actively seeks and involves the world's leading experts in various fields of study related to the Arise Arjuna initiative. Our website is also a resource for the public at large. It will regularly feature articles, interviews and news items through which Scholars, Gurus, Acharyas and Experts will share their collective wisdom with our readers.


Therefore the Arise Arjuna Foundation is an effort to harness humanities ancient glory as represented by the ancient world's largest epic, the Mahabharata. Rather than evoking Arjuna in the name of war, Arise Arjuna evokes that creative spark and warrior-like ability to overcome obstacles. This Arjuna-like being is present within everyone of us. The Timeless Wisdom and Practical Guidance of the Bhagavad Gitra as presented by Lord Krishna is applicable to us all. In fact, now more than ever, the message of the Bhagavad Gita can be a healing panacea to the ever increasing woes of a confused world lost in sectarianism and violence. The basic principle behind Arise Arjuna can be applied to the lives of anyone from any religious denomination. Remaining rooted within one's own traditions and culture, by applying the wisdom promoted by Arise Arjuna, one can actually enhance their personal foundation. Arise Arjuna recognizes that the differences between us do not separate us. Such differences are simply a part of the diversity that is naural to the the grand mosaic called creation .


This Foundation also seems to interested in dispelling the various misperceptions about Indian History.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Virendra » 19 Jul 2012 16:50

Murugan wrote:शांति मंत्र ऊं सहना ववतु सहनौ भुनक्तु सहविर्यम् करवावहे तेजस्विना वधीतम् ... also has saha - vIryam
: May we Work Together with Energy and Vigour, (to kill the idea of halfwitz)

You replayed the school day memories Murugan Ji. I did much of my schooling at Bhavan's Vidyashram in Jaipur.
Our daily morning prayer would have around a dozen Sanskrit slokas among whom is this one.
The first one started with "Om Poornamadah Poornamidam .... " :)
Last edited by Virendra on 19 Jul 2012 20:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 17:05

An Old Thread on Archaeologica! (Nov 24, 2007 - Feb 21, 2008) 12 pages, 166 posts

AIT - An Investigation of the Truth

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 17:56


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 18:37

The Horse Hypothesis


Why is the Horse called Aśvaḥ?

Earlier I proposed that the horse got his name from the Sun!

In Punjabi we have a word - svah! Svah means ash, raakh! It is used for ash because ash is something that has been put out, its whole energy has been used up.

So A-svah would be the opposite of svah, something whose energy cannot be used up, something that is always energized, full of energy, lit up, something that can run and run and run.

As I said earlier, the Indians were very much impressed with Arabian horses. They saw how they could run on and on and on for long distances. They saw how full of energy these horses were. That is why they were "A-svah". They were Aśvaḥ, just like the Sun!

So much so that we still measure power in the form of "horse-power"!

And so the Horse became the Sun! And as Sun was a deity, so the Horse too became an object of reverence!

And because the Horse is revered in Indian tradition, AIT-Nazis start suggesting that Vedic Aryans should have originated in a place where the horse was native - in the Steppes.

Neither the Aryans came from the Steppes, nor the Horse came from the Steppes, nor the Svah (language) came from the Steppes, nor the Aśvaḥ came from the Steppes!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 19:10

Just asking, where does the term "Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust" come from? The Bible just speaks of dust!

Why would someone speak of ashes, when the normal Christian tradition is burial! The Ashes to Ashes denotes the old tradition of cremation, including among the Germanic people.

But there is more! Ashes is not just the end, it is also the beginning. It is Ashes to Ashes. That means ashes also denote birth, and not just death. So we are speaking of a belief in reincarnation - a cycle of from ashes to ashes.

So basically the whole Aryan story, regardless of direction of migration, is based on transmigration of soul, reincarnation.

BTW, did the people in the Steppes have enough wood to burn corpses? Or was wood something one would find more in the thick forests of the Indian Subcontinent?

Sure the custom was kept alive even during the migration through areas with less wood, but the custom would have started at a place where wood was plenty! No? Do the Steppes have plenty of wood?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 19:21

Punjabi svah is used to denote ashes. Does it have yet another hidden meaning?

Did the people earlier see themselves in those ashes, that they used to call it "sv" (self)? Does svah then also mean that what is left from oneself?

Can it be that these were the origins of Vedic philosophy - the mortal Manush and immortal Bhagwan?

Considering oneself (sv) as mortal, extinguishable (svah), and considering the always brilliant Supreme, the Sun, as inextinguishable (a-svah)?

We were still not as far as having thought up of reincarnation! That came later! But this original thought is still a thought, still preserved in Indian language.
Last edited by RajeshA on 19 Jul 2012 20:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 19 Jul 2012 20:02

I did not bother reading Witzel, Kazanas or Elst - all key players in this debate until a few days ago mainly because until now I was unable to understand what they were talking about. I am slightly better placed now and an article by Elst suggests some very intriguing stuff.

Fact is there is no suggestion at all of any Aryan invasion, although there is not yet much proof of OIT. But what intrigues me are some of the other things that Elst points out.

Curiously, so called "Dravidian" words (in place names) have appeared all the way along the coast from middle east, Sindh, Gujarat and Maharashtra right down to the South. The so called "Dravidian" languages themselves show a very strong influence of "Indo-European" (Sanskritic). Kannada and Telugu show the strongest grammatical influences, but the influence rune deep in Tamil also. In fact, rather than Sanskrit having a substrate of Dravidian languages suggesting a Saskritic dominance of Dravidian speaking people (as suggested by AIT) there is a Sanskrit influence on Dravidian which people are somehow not calling a substrate. If it was a substrate, it means that Dravidian languages dominated an area that initially had Sanskrit speakers in the South. But "Dravidian" languages have been totally neglected by our heroic philologists - a rejected loser group spoken by black Hamites and not the royal "Indo-Aryan. But that is bullshit. There are deep links between Sanskrit and Dravdian languages.

The real situation is far more complex than imagined. Unbelievably Sanskrit and "Indo-European" have links with the Austronesian languages of the far east, and the only way that link could hve gone there is through India and the links are likely very old. A lot is unknown simply because the west has studied mainly its own languages and the study of western (European) languages has necessarily included Sanskrit. Only now is it being realised that the Sanskrit influence in many European languages is not 100%. It is 66% in German and may be 50% in Greek.

But folks - it is 100% in India because it has influenced even Dravidian languages and the influence extends to the far east in Austronesian languages.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 19 Jul 2012 20:08

RajeshA wrote:Punjabi svah is used to denote ashes. Does it have yet another hidden meaning?

Nothing hidden. Straight out of Vedic ritual of offering something (often the body of a deceased person) to Agni the God of fire. "Svaha" is an offering. "Agnaye svaha" is an offering to Agni

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 20:16

shiv saar,

I am focusing on the meaning of svah as ashes and not offering. In Punjabi it is used for ashes! If one follows the trail, one gets to the horse!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 19 Jul 2012 21:07

I found the following blog and posted a comment. Interestin reply - almost proving my point
Hindutva Crazies on the Dating of the Rig Vedas

My post:
You say at the beginning of your rant:
“Generally, the Rig Vedas are said to begin around 3900 YBP.

Then you say:
“As Hindu culture is ahistoric in terms of dates and events, no one knows when these events took place.”

Only one statement can be correct.

Not sure why you are so keen to take on “Hindutva crazies” – you could ignore them, but you seem concerned enough about what Hindutva crazies say to actually write a rant about their beliefs.

Actually some of the things that “hindutva crazies” say might possibly be true and that is getting a whole lot of “scholarly” knickers in a right royal twist. That would, in my view, be a good reason for you to have your rant.

LOL


The reply:
Nothing controversial that those Hindu dogs say is correct. Nothing, nothing, nothing.

And you are banned.
Last edited by shiv on 19 Jul 2012 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 19 Jul 2012 21:09

shiv garu, Rajesh ji posted the blog link before, that guy is outright racist

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 21:14

shiv saar,

Giving that Lindsay guy a link here on BRF would be too generous!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 19 Jul 2012 21:34

RajeshA wrote:shiv saar,

Giving that Lindsay guy a link here on BRF would be too generous!


Hmm. I edited the url. I just enjoyed pissing him off.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 21:41

shiv saar,

I have poked him a few times as well! I posted the term AIT-Nazis on his site. He usually accepts a post without editing, but then "bans" the others.

I am hopeful that one can get terms like "AIT-Nazis", "AIT-Sepoys", "India-Blindness" out there into the general public - both Western and Indian. It would help define the alternative narrative!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshG » 19 Jul 2012 21:54

shiv wrote:Here is a scholarly statement by Witzel, of Harvard University on the subject of paleolinguistics, as he peer reviews a paper:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory
It is certain that Kazanas, now that he is published in JIES, will be quoted endlessly by Indian fundamentalists and nationalists as "a respected scholar published in major peer-reviewed journals like JIES" -- no matter how absurd his claims are known to be by specialist readers of those journals. It was through means like these that the misperception has taken root in Indian lay sectors that the historical absurdities of Kak, Frawley, and even Rajaram are taken seriously by academic scholars.


"scholar", "peer review", "Harvard" are all buzzwords no? :rotfl:


IMHO any mention of JIES should be accompanied with atleast one or two sentences that references the colorful history of its founder Roger Pearson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Pearson

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 19 Jul 2012 22:00

RajeshG ji,, thanks for the info, this Pearson guy seems to be the 'baap' of Witzel. And the journal is supposed to be a 'peer reviewed' one without any bias? where is that poster who wanted only peer reviewed articles?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 19 Jul 2012 22:13

And the actual "peer" reviewed process may these days be more accurately called "beer" reviewed :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 22:25

RajeshG ji,

Nice catch with this Roger Pearson chap.

This is the kind of guy who founded the Journal of Indo-European Studies.

Roger Pearson (born 1927) is a British soldier, businessman, anthropologist, eugenics advocate, anti-semite, political organizer for the extreme right, and publisher of political and academic journals.
Early political engagement

In 1958 he founded the Northern League for North European Friendship, an organization promoting Pan-Germanism, Anti-semitism and Neo Nazi racial ideology. From the beginning the League was criticized because of its open emphasis on the dysgenic and fratricidal nature of intra-European warfare, and its tendency to attract people such as scholar Hans F. K. Günther, who received awards under the National Socialist regime for his work on race, and other European nationalists. Pearson resigned from the League in 1961, after which it became more politically oriented. In the 1960s he came to the US where working together with Willis Carto he published the magazine The New Patriot under the pseudonym Stephan Langton, Publishing articles such as [b]"Zionists and the Plot Against South Africa," "Early Jews and the Rise of Jewish Money Power" and "Swindlers of the Crematoria."[/b]

He joined the Eugenics Society in 1963 and became a fellow in 1977.

Business in South Asia

Pearson served as president of the Pakistan Tea Association, Chittagong, in 1963. He also served on the managing committee of the Federation of Pakistan Chambers of Commerce and Industry. Pearson sold his business interests in East Pakistan in 1965 and moved to the United States.

Academic career in the US

Recently arrived in the United States, he contributed to some of the anti-semite Willis Carto’s publications such as Western Destiny and Noontide Press. From 1966 to 1967 as "Stephan Langton", Pearson published The New Patriot, a magazine devoted to "a responsible but penetrating inquiry into every aspect of the Jewish Question."

In 1966 he toured the southern US and Caribbean, and in 1967 he visited South Africa, Rhodesia and Mozambique, before joining the faculty of the University of Southern Mississippi (USM) in 1968 as an Assistant Professor of Sociology. In 1970, he was appointed Associate Professor and head of Sociology and Anthropology at Queens College, Charlotte (now Queens University of Charlotte) but resigned to return to USM the next year as Professor and Chairman of a new Department of Anthropology, offering both Bachelors and Masters degrees.

In 1974 Pearson was appointed Professor and Dean of Academic Affairs and Director of Research at Montana Tech.[10] During his tenure as dean, the school received $60,000 from the Pioneer Fund to support Pearson’s academic research and publishing activities. When a journalist called the various universities at which Pearson had held positions, Montana Tech officials stated they were unaware that Pearson was the person who had edited Western Destiny, a periodical laden with many pro-South Africa, anti-Communist and anti-racial mixing articles, who had penned both articles and pamphlets for Willis Carto's Noontide Press. These race-oriented titles included: "Eugenics and Race" and "Early Civilizations of the Nordic Peoples." Pearson also founded the academic Journal of Indo-European Studies.

World Anti-Communist League

In 1975, Pearson left academia and moved to Washington, D.C., to become president of the Council on American Affairs, President of the American chapter of the World Anti-Communist League, Editor of the Journal on American Affairs (later renamed The Journal of Social, Political and Economic Studies), and eventually President of University Professors for Academic Order (UPAO), an organization advocating academic integrity, social order and that the university should not be "an instrument of social change" and working to depoliticize campus environments. He was also a Trustee of the Benjamin Franklin University.

He also served on editorial board of the several institutions, including the Heritage Foundation, the Foreign Policy Research Institute, and the American Security Council, and that a number of conservative politicians wrote articles for Pearson’s Journal on American Affairs and related Monographs, including Senators Jake Garn (R-UT), Carl T. Curtis (R-NE), Jesse Helms (R-NC), and Representatives Jack Kemp (R-NY), and Philip Crane (R-UT).

Pearson was elected World Chairman of the World Anti-Communist League in 1978. According to William H. Tucker he "used this opportunity to fill the WACL with European Nazis - ex-officials of the Third Reich and Nazi collaborators from other countries during the war as well as new adherents to the cause—in what one journalist called "one of the greatest fascist blocs in postwar Europe."

He presided over its 11th Annual Conference held in Washington that year. The initial session of the five day session, which was addressed by two U.S Senators and opened by the Marine Corp Band and Joint Armed Services Honor Guard, was attended by several hundred members from around the world. After the meeting had been condemned in Pravda, the Washington Post published an even more critical attack on both WACL and Pearson's extreme right wing politics.
After the Washington Post article, Pearson was asked to resign from the editorial board of the neo-Conservative Heritage Foundation’s journal Policy Review, which he had helped to found, but his connection with other organizations continued, and as late as 1986 Covert Action criticized his continued association with James Angleton, former chief of CIA Counter-Intelligence, General Robert C. Richardson, and other American Security Council members.

Association with the Pioneer Fund

In 1981, Pearson received the library of Donald A. Swan through a grant from the Pioneer Fund. Between 1973 and 1999 the Fund spent $1.2 million on Pearson's activities, most of which was used for the Institute for the Study of Man which Pearson directed and which under Pearson acquired the peer-reviewed journal Mankind Quarterly in 1979. Pearson took over as publisher and is said to have editorial influence although his name has never appeared on the masthead. Pearson has used diverse pseudonyms to contribute to the journal, including J.W. Jamieson, and Alan McGregor. This publication was later taken over by The Council for Social and Economic Studies.

Pearson is also director of the Council for Social and Economics Studies, which owns the Scott-Townsend Publishers imprint (which has published most of his recent books), and General Editor of Journal of Social, Political and Economic Studies.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 19 Jul 2012 22:54

Now it is clear why very few Indians get to publish, and if they get to publish why they do, we need to list these Indian authors who vie to publish in JIES, you will immediately know their intentions. See how this guy is related to TSP. We should call Witzel a Nazi sympathizer rightfully so as RajeshA ji does. What more proof does one want to know the intentions of Witzel and gang who are active members of this enterprise? someone also questioned the correctness of calling Witzel a Nazi or AIT proponents AIT-Nazis, hope it is clear now.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby fanne » 19 Jul 2012 23:17

Why we are so hung up on 'horse' wrt to AIT discussion. I see three problems with it -
1. The AIT Nazis dictate the debate. They tell you what you need to prove for AIT to be wrong and when you prove that, they shift the goal post. It's akin to someone asking -prove that your father is your father. You go and get some people who were alive to testify. Those people are dismissed as liars. Then he shifts the goalpost and asks you to furnish a DNA report. You produce that, it says the DNA report is right only 98%, 2% it is wrong. Go bring a proof that is 100% right. In the meanwhile, the irony is that your father is your father and you are running pillar to post to prove this. You can take a stand, present the proof and ask the other guy to f...off. Remember Witzel does not need to be proved that AIT is false nor (he probably knows it is) the western world needs to be proved. It is the Maculite Indians, if you convince then, the job is done.
2. The horse has been there (now the argument has shifted that all right it has been in Harappa or maybe in 3500 BC so what? Was it there 20,000 years ago?). The whole genesis of AIT was that Harappa does not have Horse and Since Vedic text is full of it, it means Harappa is of non vedic origin. Now when Horses were found in Harappa, the counter by AIT Nazis have been, that why these few and they are not that old. Please read the link and extracts. I don’t see why RajeshA has to make argument that horses were known to Vedic people and not originally from there. Vedic text only claims that they know of horses and not that they were originally from India (it may or may not be).
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ait/ch44.htm
The presence of horse remains
Meanwhile, in several Harappan sites remains of horses have been found. Even supporters of the AIT have admitted that the horse was known in Mohenjo Daro, near the coast of the Arabian Sea (let alone in more northerly areas), in 2500 BC at the latest.30 But the presence of horses and even domesticated horses has already been traced further back: horse teeth at Amri, on the Indus near Mohenjo Daro, and at Rana Ghundai on the Panjab-Baluchistan border have been dated to about 3,600 BC. The latter has been interpreted as indicating “horse-riding invaders”31, but that is merely an application of invasionist preconceptions. More bones of the true and domesticated horse have been found in Harappa, Surkotada (all layers including the earliest), Kalibangan, Malvan and Ropar.32 Recently, bones which were first taken to belong to onager specimens, have been identified as belonging to the, domesticated horse (Kuntasi, near the Gujarat coast, dated to 2300 BC). Superintending archaeologist Dr. A.M. Chitalwala comments: “We may have to ask whether the Aryans (…) could have been Harappans themselves. (…) We don’t have to believe in the imports theory anymore.”33
Admittedly, the presence of horses in the Harappan excavation sites is not as overwhelming in quantity as in the neolithic cultures of Eastern Europe. However, the relative paucity of horse remains is matched by the fact that the millions-strong population of the Harappan civilization, much larger than that of Egypt and Mesopotamia combined, has left us only several hundreds of skeletons, even when men sometimes had the benefit of burial which horses did not have.
The implication for the question of the horses is that any finds of horses are good enough to make the point that horses were known in India, and that they were available to a substantially greater extent than a simple count of the excavated bones would suggest. The cave paintings in Bhimbetka near Bhopal, perhaps 30,000 years old (but the datings of cave paintings are highly controversial), showing a horse being caught by humans, confirm that horses existed in India in spite of the paucity of skeletal remains.34 There is, however, room for debate on whether the animals depicted are really horses and not onagers. Other cave paintings, so far undated, show a number of warriors wielding sticks in their right hands and actually riding horses without saddles or bridles.35
3. Even though there is not widespread excavation and proof of horses or millennium old civilization sites in the Gangetic planes, it is simply a case of that we have not been excavating enough. Most of the cities of old times are still populated centers. You cannot just go and dig 100 feet ditch to uncover and we have not been trying either. So maybe some more focus is needed here.
Rgds,
Fanne
Other websites -
http://www.archaeologyonline.net/artifa ... ebate.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... EpkV5noXCg
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jul 2012 23:20

Interview

Conducted on Jul 07, 2009
By V Sundaram
An Aryan invader from America: newstoday.net

Vayutuvan
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 Jul 2012 23:21

:lol: This guy Pearson reminds me of the character Roderick Spode from The Code of the Woosters by P.G. Wodehouse.

General Editor of JIES is J P Mallory who opposes Renfrew's views on urheimat question.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 20 Jul 2012 01:01

Considering that with our collective Hindu fundamentalist attitude we have driven away all right-thinking AIT advocates, if somebody has time, can somebody play devil's advocate on the Horse Hypothesis, I wrote earlier. I'd like to know the weaknesses!

Thanks

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jul 2012 04:00

RajeshA wrote:Just asking, where does the term "Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust" come from? The Bible just speaks of dust!


http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/ashes-to-ashes.html

The first English Book of Common Prayer from 1549 has the "ashes to ashes, dust to dust".
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bc ... l_1549.htm

On the origin of the first book of Common Prayer:
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bc ... P_1549.htm
This Book of Common Prayer was not created in a vacuum, but derives from several sources. First and foremost was the Sarum Rite, or the Latin liturgy developed in Salisbury in the thirteenth century, and widely used in England. Two other influences were a reformed Roman Breviary of the Spanish Cardinal Quiñones, and a book on doctrine and liturgy by Hermann von Wied, Archbishop of Cologne.


The Sarum Rite does not seem to have it.
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bc ... nglish.htm

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jul 2012 04:07

RajeshA wrote:The Horse Hypothesis


Why is the Horse called Aśvaḥ?

Earlier I proposed that the horse got his name from the Sun!

In Punjabi we have a word - svah! Svah means ash, raakh! It is used for ash because ash is something that has been put out, its whole energy has been used up.

So A-svah would be the opposite of svah, something whose energy cannot be used up, something that is always energized, full of energy, lit up, something that can run and run and run.


First things to do would be to consult Panini and the other ancient grammarians. If it didn't occur to them, then it is unlikely to be true.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 20 Jul 2012 04:32

Ashwa>Ashva>Asvah>hashva>harshva>harsva>harsa>horsa>horse.

Ashwa-gandha - smells like horse, but the herb also provides strength like horse.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Jul 2012 04:44

Dear Moderator,
If you do not like this post, please delete it. I am posting it because I do think it conveys ideas appropriate to Bharat Rakshaks.

Missionaries are using Aryan Invasion Theory to create a new identity and to convert people. Their argument to various Indians is, simplified, and made explicit is as follows:

1. You probably suffer from social discrimination today.
2. Your parents or grandparents suffered from social AND legal discrimination in the past.
3. This discrimination has been in place for all of recorded history.
4. This history begins with the Aryan Invasion, when the Aryans started this system of discrimination. Specifically, they invented the "varna" (color) system to segregate their fair-skinned race from your dark-skinned ancestors.
5. You owe nothing to this age-old tradition, discrimination is inherent in it. Disown it and become a Christian, which will remake your identity. (As a side-effect, if your Indian identity is also erased, so much the better!)

What are the various responses?
1. Aryan Invasion did not happen.
2. Genetic studies show that nothing like this race segregation occurred, and therefore varna had nothing to do with race.
3. Comparative linguistics are bullsh*t.
etc.

Now, these responses above are interesting academic exercises. A recapitulation of the history created so far, examining all the evidence and all the premises, should be done as Indians become experts in this field.

But it will do nothing to address the root problem, which is the reality that large groups of people have the experience of actual discrimination OR at least have that very strong perception of it.

The fact is it is the reality of the social discrimination that opens a wedge among Indians, and not the Aryan Invasion Theory.

The real answer is to change the rules of the game. History is IRRELEVANT!

1. Hinduism is not history-centric (please read Rajeev Malhotra's book or watch some of his videos).

2. Hindus are not bound by the "scriptures" in the way the British imagined or India's modern elite imagines. Hinduism, in any particular era, is not what is in the books, but what Hindus practice.

3. The Acharya Sabha should announce that *anyone* who is willing to take some simple vow (maybe of abstention from alcohol and beef) can become dvija, and will be fully embraced by Hindu society; that is the rule for this age.

4. All Hindus should honor the decision, whatever it is, in (3.)

---
About changing the rules of the game, I'm sure Kautilya, Sun-Tzu, Machiavelli all recommend doing it if you can, to meet on a battleground that gives you the advantage. I'm sure Panchatantra also has tales that teach the same.

Alexander beat Darius by choosing to do battle on ground where the Persian chariots would be less effective. Modern start-ups in Silicon Valley do not take the incumbents head-on, they try to change the game via new technology and innovation.

I'm sure that what I wrote above is hardly the only rules-changing transformation that is possible. I'm sure with focus the collected brains and IQ of Hindus can think of more and better.

History should not be made into a fatal distraction.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshG » 20 Jul 2012 06:45

venug wrote:RajeshG ji,, thanks for the info, this Pearson guy seems to be the 'baap' of Witzel. And the journal is supposed to be a 'peer reviewed' one without any bias? where is that poster who wanted only peer reviewed articles?


His bio.. more stuff is avail from google.

http://www.ferris.edu/isar/bios/Pearbib.htm

Fascist ideologist Roger Pearson, a Pioneer Fund beneficiary ($568,000 from 1981-1991) and author of Eugenics and Race, published by Willis Carto's notoriously anti-Semitic Noontide Press, argues that the white race is endangered by inferior genetic stock, but with proper use of modern biological technology "a new super-generation" descended from "only the fittest" of the previous generation can be produced. The first nation to adopt such a scientific breeding program, Pearson contends, "would dominate the rest of the world."


And to make sure Pearson is not some fringe cute lunatic in some random tv show, a quote from a different source (arvidsson).

That the search for origins not only is faulty from a theoretical perspective, but can also be ideologically suspect, became clear to Lincoln when the discussion about Dumezil's far-right views grew lively in the 1980s. Other information that came out during the same time also indicated that the discipline of Indo-European studies had not entirely freed itself from its dark past. The racial-anthropological perspective had more or less disappeared from view in the Indo-European disciplne -- even if Gimbustas described the Indo-Europeans as belonging to the Nordic race, and even if both she and Renfrew believed that the developing area of Genetics would shed new light on the question of the Indo-Europeans' origin. But behind the scenes the situation was different. Most notable is perhaps that no one reacted to the fact that the editor of the world-leading journal for research on the Indo-Europeans, Journal of Indo-European Studies, Roger Pearson, had since the 1950s been "one of America's foremost Nazi apologists and quite clearly a racist with one of the world's best web of contacts." Before Pearson, along with Marija Gimbustas, Edgar C. Polome, and Raimo Anttilla, founded the Journal of Indo-European Studies, he had worked with Hans F. K. Gunther, who had continued to spread his racial doctrines after the fall of the Third Reich. Pearson was also chairman of the American division of the World Anti-Communist League and lobbied in Washington for more funds for defense, the Contras, and the UNITA guerillas. Together with Polome, one of the United States' leading researchers in the area of Germanic religion, he has also published the academic, racist journal the Mankind Quarterly.

In the 1970s, the Mankind Quarterly, which alternates articles about race and genetics with articles about the Indo-Europeans and prehistoric cultures, became a model when one of Europe's leading neo-fascists, Alain de Benoist, founded his own journal called Nouvelle Ecole. In the journal's so called Comite de patronage were, among others, Roger Pearson, Mircea Eliade, the German classicist Franz Altheim (formerly of SS-Ahnenerbe), Marija Gimbustas, Stig Wikander, and the Swedish anthropologist Bertil J Lundman. There was also the Benoist sympathasizer Jean Haudry, who publishes France's foremost journal for Indo-European studies, Etudes indo-europeennes. Some people were probably on the Comite de patronage because they were unaware of its political sympathies, or because they wanted to sun themselves in the flow of great scholarly names; others were there because they supported the neo-Fascist views of the journal. Georges Dumezil was also on the journal's Comite de patronage. But when Benoist in 1972-73 (no. 22-23) published an honorary issue for Dumezil, which made the French press speculate whether Dumezil sympathized with Benoist's neo-Fascism, Dumezil withdrew his support from the journal. In newspaper interviews, he later made it clear that he did not support Benoist's neo-Fascism, at least not without reservations. However, this even triggered the ideologically critical examination of his work that was initiated by Arnoldo Momigliano and Carlo Ginzburg (see the introduction).

The debate around Dumezil, Pearson, Haudry, Indo-European scholarship, and Fascism made Lincoln add his support to those who felt that the Indo-European scene had to be cleaned up. In several articles, Lincoln argued that it could actually be proved that Dumezil's sympathies for French and Italian Fascism had influenced his scientific research of the 1930s. As a consequence of this, Lincoln became more or less persona non grata among the Indo-Europeanists of the United States, and references to his work declined. In the 1990s, Lincoln continued to critically study the history of Indo-European scholarship, which resulted in Theorizing Myth: Narrative, Ideology, and Scholarship (2000; a work that would have been very important to the ideas in my study had it been published before the Swedish edition). His studies of Indo-European mythology have now made him question the very belief in an objective historiography, and he sees the scientific search for knowledge as a site for political power struggles. The work of cultural studies is, according to Lincoln, "myth plus footnotes". In one of his latest articles, Lincoln has also chosen to modify the classification system of the history of religions. The myths that he earlier studied as "Indo-European" are now presented as "Eurasian" or as "Indo-European" (in quotation marks). With that, the category of religion that saw the light with Oriental Jones' discovery in 1786 is eliminated.


In my mind, while other angles can be looked at, very close attention needs to be paid to the people in this field. Shri Hock (just random eg) who has often been mentioned in this thread might be a perfectly good person doing genuine research on sanskrit but given the amount of abuse in this field, even he has to be seen with suspicion. Questions need to be asked about who his PhD advisor was, where he studied, what papers and journals he published in, who funds his research, who is he married to.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Vayutuvan » 20 Jul 2012 07:42

RajeshG wrote:who is he married to.

The answer to that question is an interesting one.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jul 2012 07:52

Arun Gupta ji, I agree with you, there is exploitation of dalits (lack of better term), tamil dravidian supporters and other sub groups who were once subjected to various degrees of discrimination. This is being used to drive a wedge between North/South, Dalit/Upper castes etc. The only way to unify all Indians is to remove the fear of exploitation, give them equal social status. Make Vedic education open to anyone who has what it takes, let all Indians reach their full potential of the past. And also protect ourselves from the external forces who are trying to hijack our past and history, that too is important, else we can't stop exploitation of those who feel let down by external agents who want the concept of Indian nation to die.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jul 2012 07:54

A_Gupta wrote:Missionaries are using Aryan Invasion Theory to create a new identity and to convert people. Their argument to various Indians is, simplified, and made explicit is as follows:

1. You probably suffer from social discrimination today.
2. Your parents or grandparents suffered from social AND legal discrimination in the past.
3. This discrimination has been in place for all of recorded history.
4. This history begins with the Aryan Invasion, when the Aryans started this system of discrimination. Specifically, they invented the "varna" (color) system to segregate their fair-skinned race from your dark-skinned ancestors.
5. You owe nothing to this age-old tradition, discrimination is inherent in it. Disown it and become a Christian, which will remake your identity. (As a side-effect, if your Indian identity is also erased, so much the better!)


Arun in general, your post is wise and accurate and your argument that a different approach is needed is well taken.

But I see a very great need for reversing the Aryan Invasion Theory and persisting with the arguments that demolish the theory for long enough for more and more people to come back to the thread read the arguments and internalise them, or at the very least provoke a mental conflict about the controversies that exist even if it is irritation at "Hindu revisionism".

I say this because it is necessary to be truthful about the AIT in order to unravel injustices that have been done in India. And its not just about evangelism in the south. It starts from the creation of a white/black-north/south division. If there are disgruntled southern groups being preyed upon by lying Chritist missionaries, there are equally a large number of northern Indians whose self image is based on their light-skinned Aryanism. It would be wrong to attempt to tear down the beliefs of any one of these groups in isolation.

The truth is that the people who convinced both north and south Indians about the Aryan invasion theory by giving it to them as "science' in English were very clear that the fair skinned northerners were already inferior to Europeans because they had mixed with the blacks. The blacks of the south were ignored until the Christian missionaries realized that they could blame the condition of dark skinned people on the light skinned "northern Indian/Aryan" high caste people and get the dark skinned people to worship an egalitarian Christian god. The fact that the white skinned leaders of the Church were racist towards both the north and the south is hidden by the AIT that shift the blame for racism and color consciousness on to Indians, leaving the colonials and church "lily white" as it were. And yes, Rajiv Malhotra deals with this in "Breaking India'

If you were a north Indian you were considered an inferior to European, not fully white person who has intermarried with blacks, but still has the high caste Brahmins, Banias and Rajputs who are Hindutvadi racists

If you were south Indian and light complexioned - you are a high caste representative of the racist north. if you are a dark skinned south Indian - your ancestors were called inferior "black heathendom" by the Christian west just 100 years ago. But now they want to convert you, so they say that your problem is only because the light complexioned north screwed you and that we the church from Europe USA are fairer. You become Christian and all will be OK.
Last edited by shiv on 20 Jul 2012 08:23, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jul 2012 08:05

venug wrote:Arun Gupta ji, I agree with you, there is exploitation of dalits (lack of better term),


There is a better term, "Scheduled castes and Tribes" But if you really want to see how Hindus, Muslims and Christians and communists all discriminate against SC and ST watch the movie linked below.

It is a good one, I promise you. Watch it patiently without getting angry. It is nearly 2 hours long. Don't get angry with the portrayals of Hindus. The Christians, Muslims and communists all appear in the video, and all of them show a uniform attitude about society in India. It also shows how the slightly higher castes among the lower castes discriminate against the slightly lower castes. It tells the truth and does not try to protect Muslims or Christians or lower castes who all discriminate equally. It shows how there is casteism among Muslims and different churches for different castes among Christians. The video is also extremely informative of how social change in India has allowed SC/ST to come up in India despite the discrimination and how Indians live side by side in the presence of such attitudes as they have done for millennia.

And for all the discrimination - check how happy and playful those SC/ST kids are

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgDGmYdhZvU
Last edited by shiv on 20 Jul 2012 10:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 20 Jul 2012 09:58

What about inter-missionary discrimination?

Aren't many of them practice untouchability towards same faith's different denominations?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 20 Jul 2012 10:19

Murugan wrote:What about inter-missionary discrimination?

Aren't many of them practice untouchability towards same faith's different denominations?


Attitudes that exist in society have not been changed by religion because religion is not the solution.

India's secular effort (based on a widespread Hindu acceptance that this must not continue) has resulted in more change than any religion ever did since the coming of Islam and Christianity 1000 plus years ago.

Islam mostly lived with India's social system, although conversions from lower castes were encouraged. But that only created three Muslim castes - Ashraf (High caste), Ajlaf (low caste) and Arzal (untouchable). It was the British who initially believed that the lighter skinned Aryans were superior to the darker skinned natives and Dravidians. They assumed that Indian practices reflected their biases. The created the AIT to explain this. They soon discovered that this was an inconvenient way of looking at things because the lighter skins were not much different from their darker skinned brothers. That is when they said that lighter skinned Indians created the caste system for discrimination, but they did not succeed so there was mixing of races and Indians were all contaminated and inferior. The fairer skins used to be better. the darker skins were always inferior.

The final stage in this evolution was to say "We are just. The light skinned caste Indians are inferior to us and they are the real racists. Our Lord Christ will today rescue the black Indians whom we called useless dregs till yesterday, but we have changed our minds today". Conversions to Islam and Christianity were fundamentally racially motivated and it is no surprise that both religions failed miserably by offering "solutions" where social action was needed. Not the mumbo jumbo of kalima or baptism.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ArmenT » 20 Jul 2012 10:48

RajeshA wrote:As I said earlier, the Indians were very much impressed with Arabian horses. They saw how they could run on and on and on for long distances. They saw how full of energy these horses were. That is why they were "A-svah". They were Aśvaḥ, just like the Sun!

So much so that we still measure power in the form of "horse-power"!

Don't normally read this thread at all, but that last statement has a separate history of its own. The real reason we measure power in the form of "horse-power" is because of a creative marketing guy. Basically, when James Watt developed his model of steam engine, he needed a way to market it in a manner that farmers would understand, so that they would purchase his engines. So he came up with the idea of "horse-power". How did he estimate the power of a horse, you ask? He just asked some farmer what weight his pony could pull and clocked its speed and came up with a calculation of pony power, then he assumed that a pony was 50% power capacity of a horse and so he multiplied his pony power by 2 and voila, the unit of horsepower was born! So now if he said that his engine was 10 HP, the farmers could understand that his engine could replace 10 horses and only cost the price of (say) 5 horses.

Now back to my cave complex.


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