Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Nilesh Oak
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 20:43

Namaskar to All.

Rajesh ji. Thank you for your query and efforts. I could login into the forum.

Nilesh

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2012 20:45

Nilesh Oak wrote:Namaskar to All.

Rajesh ji. Thank you for your query and efforts. I could login into the forum.

Nilesh


Sir, I do not want to sound obsequious, but the work you have done is nothing less than tremendous. Thank you, and keep it up.

I was wondering if a kind of Power point file could be made with images of a dark sky and stars as observed during the Mahabharata - or even an animation.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 20:53

RajeshA wrote:After all humans have been living in the Indian Subcontinent continuously since the last 65,000 years, an area which is one of the most hospitable for mankind in the world - plenty of fresh water, sun, vegetation, biodiversity!



Rajesh ji,

Interesting that you refer to 65000 years. Were you making this comment based on timing of 'Toba explosion'?

Toba volcanic explosion occurred 70-75 thousand years ago and blanketed most of India with soot, ash. Still life (including whatever civilzation might have existed then) survived.

I come across allusions to this event in my readings of Puranas, Mahabharata etc. But I have decided to keep the topic on back burner for now.

Nilesh

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 20:59

Shiv ji,

Here is a link (one of many) to few animations (simulations using Astornomy software) I have added on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzYEUo5O450

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 01 Aug 2012 21:14

Nilesh Oak ji,

a very warm welcome to you on BRF. I am sure BRF will profit much from your hands-on experience in archaeoastronomy and much more.

I also hope that BRF community would be able to provide you with more archaeoastronomical references from our scriptures, we may have come across, which may help you in your future work.

Many BRFites have quite an interest in Indic scriptures. Perhaps a dedicated thread in the future in 'General Discussions Forum' may be useful, where such references can be gathered and analysed.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 21:19

Links to 3 of 8 youtube animations/simulations using Voyager 4.5. I have made these from my laptop with the help of flipcam, while talking (and trying to figure out what I am going to say) into it as I ran simulation (anlogy to an artist
of Indian classical music comes to mind.. composer, conductor, player, improviser.. all in one).

These simulations specifically refer to 'positions of Mars' mentioned in Mahabharata text, in the context of Mahabharata War. Do send me your feedback, but also pass it on the link to those who may be interested.

I will post remaining youtube links soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwuzCJ1X-cc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uav_UUFhIHE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5N_AFcVADM

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2012 21:25

Nilesh Oak wrote:These simulations specifically refer to 'positions of Mars' mentioned in Mahabharata text, in the context of Mahabharata War. Do send me your feedback, but also pass it on the link to those who may be interested.

I will post remaining youtube links soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwuzCJ1X-cc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uav_UUFhIHE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5N_AFcVADM


Let me make these videos inline on the forum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwuzCJ1X-cc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uav_UUFhIHE



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5N_AFcVADM

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 01 Aug 2012 21:25

Nilesh Oak wrote:
RajeshA wrote:After all humans have been living in the Indian Subcontinent continuously since the last 65,000 years, an area which is one of the most hospitable for mankind in the world - plenty of fresh water, sun, vegetation, biodiversity!

Rajesh ji,

Interesting that you refer to 65000 years. Were you making this comment based on timing of 'Toba explosion'?

Toba volcanic explosion occurred 70-75 thousand years ago and blanketed most of India with soot, ash. Still life (including whatever civilzation might have existed then) survived.

I come across allusions to this event in my readings of Puranas, Mahabharata etc. But I have decided to keep the topic on back burner for now.

Nilesh

Yes, I was using the timing of Toba explosion as a reference! It says, Indian Subcontinent came under a blanket of ash 1 to 3 and occasionally 6 meters deep, caused a 1000 year ice-age, and the human population of the world experienced a dramatic crash, leaving just 10,000 humans left.

I can't say how far that is true! Also I do not know if any Indians survived such a natural catastrophe.

It would however be interesting if there were any allusions to that in our scriptures. But I presume there must have been other such natural catastrophes during the course of the last many millennia, which may have found some mention somewhere!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 01 Aug 2012 21:28

It is interesting how all Indologists the world over talk about linguistics and horse, but never mention archaeoastronomy! :)

Perhaps the focus of the national and international debate on Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory needs to changed.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 01 Aug 2012 21:42

RajeshA wrote:It is interesting how all Indologists the world over talk about linguistics and horse, but never mention archaeoastronomy! :)


Rajesh "Indology" has been populated by linguists and my respect for their work has gone done be several notches when I look at the shoddy assumptions many are prone to make. Science and rigor the way Nilesh Oak has used seems to be unknown to those Indologists.

I bet that not one of those horse bone chewers can understand what archaeo-astronomy means. Their awareness extends to looking at archaeo-asses and saying it was not Equus caballus.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby fanne » 01 Aug 2012 21:50

Welcome and Sat Sat Pranam!!

Shiv and RajeshA, How for TSP theread we have first thread dedicated to static but useful links, can we have the same for this thread (that way all the important references are at one place). For example, my quest to learn Sanskrit to read Rigveda is going nowhere, I am shifting to plan b of reading Rigveda with Hindi translation. I know Shiv ji has a book in previous pages. Likewise there are many useful links buried in these 77 pages. We can have that in one place and hopefully links that are useful (not in Witzel sense) and we can thus dictate the narrative.
Thanks,
fanne

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 01 Aug 2012 21:53

Nilesh Oak ji,

there is a paper by T.R.S. Prasanna on Sulbasutras. It may be of interest to you!

Astronomical references offer a direct method to date Vedic texts. Weber (1861) was the first (Sanskrit) scholar to recognize the importance of this method. The key verses are in Kausitaki [Keith 1920], Satapatha [Eggeling 1882-1900] and Pancavimsa [Caland 1931] Brahmanas and in Taittiriya Samhita [Keith 1914]. Thibaut‟s article [Thibaut 1895] is influential to this day among western Sanskrit scholars (or Sanskrit scholars henceforth). Weber and Thibaut dated key verses to 800-1000 BC. Their interpretations gained acceptance amongst Sanskrit scholars and other supporters of AIT.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 22:03

Referring AIT, I would encourage forum paricipants to be assertive (and humble) and NOT go on defensive.

If we establish ancient nature of Indian civilization (which is been already done, with evidence than stands the test of 'falsifiability of Science') , AIT will fall by itself. It has fallen, let's not resurrect it.

I know what many will say. "Academia and people in position of power in academia still talk as AIT is truth". yes, to that extent we must work (PR) to educate masses (Indian and otherwise). To remember, education begins with us. Let's not be awed by titles and positions of academics making these pro-AIT statements (for that matter statments on any subject). Academics have value if they use their expertise to educate common people, in a languge everyone can understand. On the other hand when they have agenda or talk in a bizzare language, deliberately, to fool people or to keep the research inaccessible to masses, ignore them, criticize them, but most of all, take them away from the pedestal, at least in your mind.

A quote by irreverant Nasim Taleb comes to mind,

"Academia is to knowledge what prostitution is to love; close enough on the surface but, to the nonsucker, not exactly the same thing"

then He (Nassim Taleb) adds a qualifier to his quote above,

"There are exceptions, but there are also many known cases in which a prostitute falls in love with a client"

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 01 Aug 2012 22:09

Nilesh ji, thank you for all the gyan you are spreading to common man like myself through your books.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 22:10

Rajesh ji,

Thanks. I have that paper with me. Good work by Prasanna.

Fanne, Ji

I will share my experience studying ancient Indian literature. I found that I can muster my energy, drive, priority reading them, when I am trying to solve a specific problem (aka trying to answer, look for an answer, to a specific question). Otherwise I become tired soon.

At least with Ramayana, Mahabharata and portions of Puranas, one can remain engaged because of story line. This is not the case when it comes to Vedas, Samhitas, Brahmans.. and to some extent even Upanishad. They are gold mine, but mine nonetheless. All in it is useful (not just gold) but one must know what is one looking for.. i.e. what is one trying to mine!

Just my $0.02, or even more appropriate, Rs. 0.02

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby fanne » 01 Aug 2012 22:15

What language. I have good command of Hindi, but almost none of Sanskrit. Is that enough? Does something gets lost in translation when moving from Sanskrit to Hindi (as it does in English). What are the good sources of these ancient text in Hindi?
Thanks,
fanne

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 22:22

When did the Mahabharata War Happen? The Mystery of Arundhati

Here are the links if one is looking for paperback or Kindle version. Last two links for those who are in India.

Paperback
http://www.amazon.com/When-Did-Mahabhar ... 841&sr=8-1

Kindle
http://www.amazon.com/When-Did-Mahabhar ... 841&sr=8-2

In India
Flipcart.com
http://www.flipkart.com/books/098303440 ... 2c2d653f37

Junglee.com
http://www.junglee.com/When-Did-Mahabha ... 087&sr=8-1

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 22:28

Fanne Ji,

Books published by Gita Press, Gorakhapur would be a great start (Hindi and English)

If you are looking for online source, I would begin here.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/

(Griffith's translations are good. He may have his western bias, but for most part he has not twisted the translation.. at least not deliberately. In fact, I find his translation closer and just in comparison to many translations made by Swamis and Gurus. And it would be only unjust, if I did not admit that most of what he (Griffith) has done is amazing and admirable and I thank him. (He is no more and thus my appreciation of him is not driven by any motive other than to appreciate his efforts).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_20317 » 01 Aug 2012 22:33

Welcome Nilesh ji, and thank god you did not joing 77 pages earlier. You would have killed the discussion.

Thank you RajeshA ji, you are a very resourceful person. :)

And this is to everybody here. I had tried to throw baits at people good with Mathematics but they did not take it and here we have the guru mentioning the 'falsifiability of Science'.

Nilesh ji I have seen the 'n body problem' and allusions to 'reverse calculations' being thrown at Archeoastronomy. I see these as Judo style attempts to destroy the balance of thought.

As you collect and present your ideas, I would be greatful if you can touch on these.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 01 Aug 2012 23:16

ravi_g wrote:Welcome Nilesh ji, and thank god you did not joing 77 pages earlier. You would have killed the discussion.


LOL


ravi_g wrote:Nilesh ji I have seen the 'n body problem' and allusions to 'reverse calculations' being thrown at Archeoastronomy. I see these as Judo style attempts to destroy the balance of thought.

As you collect and present your ideas, I would be greatful if you can touch on these.


Please elaborate.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 03:34

RajeshA wrote:
RajeshA wrote:

One huge problem I see for such very old dates including the dating of Mahabharata in 5561 BCE is that India would be filled with dark ages, not knowing what happened in the meantime. Our knowledge may be too sketchy.

Also even though we have the Indus Valley Civilization, we still have little information on how to fuse the two together - Vedic, Puranic and other scriptural information with the urban centers dug out in Saraswati-Sindhu Civilization area.



Chronological narrative exists for a 18000 BC - to - today, however there are certainly gaps in our knowledge. I am making effort to fill in the blanks. There are speculative mile posts. This does not mean a convenient guess (as is done by fogged brain Indologists), but rather that information is minimal and more work would be required.

I will post if sometime. P V Vartak has done tremendous work in this area but need revision in the light of new researches (geology, anthropology, genetics, Astronomy).

I feel confident (My confident can be misplaced and I am always willling to be wrong as long as my being wrong leads to further progress) that decipherement of Indus Script will allow us to fill this gap.

I have proposed (my work on Mahabharata demands this .. .so it is not like I have options! :-)) that Indus valley civilization is post vedic (is contemporary with Brahmana and Purana period), Post Ramayana and Post Mahabharata. Thus I am eagerly looking forward to additional work of Sue Sullivan (Indus Script Dictionary).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 04:41

When did the Mahabharata War happen - Corroborative Evidence 1 (Geology)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_hgELym9yY

All you have to watch is first 90 sec of this clip. (I am working with Prof. Glen Milne, now he is in Ottawa, Canada)

Note down the locations of island (my conjecture is that that is where Dwarka was..the original Dwarka) which disappeaed per this clip/simulation sometime before 6900 years ago. In fact per this simulation (and remember this is simulation) the island disappeared between 7700 and 6900 years ago. Roughly that is between 5700 BC and 4900 BC.

Now compare that with my proposal for the flooding of Dwarka in 5525 BC! (5561 BC+ 36 years (Mahabharata reference) = 5525 BC)

Let me know your thoughts.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 04:50

Dwarka

What I meant is I am working with Glen Milne, for sea level data, for my work on Ramayana and other ancient events.

Many researchers have identified Dwarka with various places around Modern Gujarath. No one has suggested the location mentioned by Graham Hancock. I am convinced (conviction is not evidence!) that Graham Hancock is right.

One point I like to mention is the location of 'Mula Dwarka' (could be translated as 'Original Dwarka'). A very small place/village, rather a spot, but located at a KEY location that alluds to 'Original Dwarka' in my opinion.

Do check the place (in Google earth or Google maps)

Coordinates 20, 46 North and 70, 36 East, 24 KM south of Somanath along the cost. Note the location of this MulaDwarka with respect to the 'island' in the film Graham Hancock that submerged some time during 5000 BC-5700 BC

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 02 Aug 2012 06:55

It is okay for puranic stories to come out and say, it is x years old. The problem is not that.. everyone's opinion is different, and there is no consistent time period said. Everyone has to agree on a date, and move on to accept that, from puranic context. This is not happening or I am not reading that.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 02 Aug 2012 08:18


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 02 Aug 2012 13:59

From Nilesh Oak ji's references above:

Image

Dr. Glenn A. Milne's projections of Global Sea Level at 7700 YBP around Gujarat, India

Image

Mul Dwarka in Gujarat

As we see in the 7,700 YBP (years before present) Projection, the coast of Gujarat was somewhat much further into the sea, the Gulf of Kutch was still land, and then there was a very big island out in the sea, which must have been known during 5561 BCE Mahabharata period.

From all these areas which were then above water, we would need to gather much more archaeological evidence to pinpoint Dwarka better, then we will need to bring up more artifacts, and to model the city of Dwarka in minute detail.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 02 Aug 2012 14:34

Nilesh Oak wrote:
RajeshA wrote:One huge problem I see for such very old dates including the dating of Mahabharata in 5561 BCE is that India would be filled with dark ages, not knowing what happened in the meantime. Our knowledge may be too sketchy.

Also even though we have the Indus Valley Civilization, we still have little information on how to fuse the two together - Vedic, Puranic and other scriptural information with the urban centers dug out in Saraswati-Sindhu Civilization area.


Chronological narrative exists for a 18000 BC - to - today, however there are certainly gaps in our knowledge. I am making effort to fill in the blanks. There are speculative mile posts. This does not mean a convenient guess (as is done by fogged brain Indologists), but rather that information is minimal and more work would be required.

I will post it sometime. P V Vartak has done tremendous work in this area but need revision in the light of new researches (geology, anthropology, genetics, Astronomy).

I feel confident (My confidence can be misplaced and I am always willling to be wrong as long as my being wrong leads to further progress) that decipherement of Indus Script will allow us to fill this gap.

I have proposed (my work on Mahabharata demands this .. .so it is not like I have options! :-)) that Indus valley civilization is post vedic (is contemporary with Brahmana and Purana period), Post Ramayana and Post Mahabharata. Thus I am eagerly looking forward to additional work of Sue Sullivan (Indus Script Dictionary).


One thing I have noticed is that Hindu Calendar has been claimed to have become unanchored. There seems to be a loss regarding when Kali Yuga started. Sri Yukteswar wrote on this matter.

If we can make the necessary corrections, then perhaps all dates as mentioned in our ancient and less ancient texts would come into alignment.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 17:43

We have many good reasons (with back up evidence) to consider 3102 BC as the beginning of Kali yuga. At least the way it was understood by Indian astronmers for a long time (last 2000+ years).

If any able person with good background in astronomy and Calendrics is willing to take up a challenge, I have a a paper (with multiple calendrics data going to back to 600 AD) in mind that I would encourage this person to test/validate/falsify. The outcome would shed light on beginning of Kaliyuga, at a minimum as assumed by many of our ancient astronomers/calendar makers over last 2000 years.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 02 Aug 2012 17:54

Nilesh Oak ji,

a query - are there any calendrical dates available from the Dwapara Yuga?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 18:32

RajeshA wrote:Nilesh Oak ji,

a query - are there any calendrical dates available from the Dwapara Yuga?


No. Not to my knowlege. All calenadars found so far points to (alludes to) 3102 BC as the starting point for their calculations.

Now if we are willling to consider broader definition of Calendar, for example Surya Siddhanta as a calendar (since it states the rule for making calendar), Anil Narayan (I have his paper and am in contact with him too) has shown that some of the positions/calculations/assumptions made in Surya siddhanta make sense only if we assume that the data for it was collected (not necessarily Surya Siddhanta..but ref. work on based on which Surya siddhanta might have been revised) before 3102 BC (going as far back as 5000-7000 BC).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 18:34

RajeshA wrote:Nilesh Oak ji,

a query - are there any calendrical dates available from the Dwapara Yuga?


Of course the bigger problem is, unless one accepts 3102 BC as beginning of Kali yuga, timing of Dwapara yuga is not defined....:-)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_20317 » 02 Aug 2012 19:11

Nilesh ji, some time back I chanced upon a discussion on the net where one guy was pushing to establish the inaccuracy of the star-map softwares of the kind that Vartak ji, others and yourself use. What he said that it is mathematically impossible to work out the trajectories of the heveanly bodies because of what was called the '3 body or n-body problem'. That is when I first wiki-ed out the topic and understood that this guy was not exactly honest. There has been infact a big simulation of basically the whole universe almost from the begining, called the Millenium Run. If people could talk and build theories around 15,000,000,000 years of simulation then making one around 10,000-25,000 years seemed quite plausible. Provided of course the star-map software was rigorous enough in its logic. Being Maths challenged I had no way of getting involved. I could not for instance understand how the Calculus would run and what I could claim based on that with what error ranges. But one thing was clear to me anything that showed an large apparent retrograde movement that repeated itself often when compared in relation to the timeframe of our interest was not usable against this kind of challenge. Even ManishH ji had raised his suspicion on such observations. Though even in such cases I have not seen any serious scientist claim that the error margin over 10,000-25,000 years period for such distances should be treated as suspect.

Now surprisingly enough I also read a different kind of challenge in the exactly opposite direction. This guy suggested that Indics were good at Mathematics and they just picked up a suitable night sky by way of reverse calculation to place the important events in the scriptures. Now unfortunately for such guys what I understand is that observations involving planetary moment across the nakshtras are heavily recorded and these are subject to retrograde movements with very high frequency. To find a suitable night sky the poets / writers / bards / lawgivers would have to be able to calculate or have access of people being able to calculate the calculas involved. Now it is commonly accepted even by the most saffron of guys that calculas of such nature was developed only around the period of the Kerala school of Mathematics and Newton-Liebnitz combine. Basically much later periods.

My allusion to martial arts was to highlight how a good martial artist is supposed to be able to both push and pull to throw the opponent out of balance. And that is exactly how I saw both types of challenges.

But one thing that I could understand was that to take the wind out of that guys sails we should have something by way of evidence that fulfilled certain conditions like:

(1) The observation is of some object so far away that the moment in the local regions would get rounded off. Like the challenge thrown by the plausible double star of our Sun affecting how we would see the sky over a period of 25000 years. Or the challenge of the retrograde movements. About your Arundhati-Vashista observation, these two (actually perhaps six) stars are something like 81 & 84 light years away.

(2) The observation should show movement that is not too much in a curve. Curves would require a much more sophisticated logic. An apparent 2 star observation moving in as straight a line as possible and changing their relative positions to each other, very very slowly is just ideal for this.

(3) The observation should be recorded in words that have the least amount of controversy. AIT/AMT/PIE people are very vicious and something escaping their molestation would be pretty hard to find. If this observation is also used in the ritualistic practices like marriage rituals, as they evolved over time and space, boy nothing like it.
Imagine my state of mind when I first saw your exposition on the Arundhati-Vashista observation as I understood them and as I understood my dilemma.

Unfortunately even here I am a restless soul since I was being inattentive when the world was trying to teach me some valuable mathematics and to this day I still cannot say with confidence if the conclusions that I am drawing are actually taking me in the right direction. Today very few Indians understand this maths and there is nobody to elaborate and lay down the error margins for usable models of such maths.



Aside – your link and comments on Dwarka and RajeshA ji dwara uploaded pics. This is going to be just as big as your last idea. When I first chanced upon this video on you-tube I too suspected something like that. In fact the size of the Island set me thinking if even the mythical Atlantis was based on the legends surrounding that Island. Great minds think alike :rotfl: .

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_20317 » 02 Aug 2012 19:14

Also the Mula Dwarka coordinates provided in pictures 2 above is the closest point of approach to the island in picture 1 in the same post by RajeshA ji.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby fanne » 02 Aug 2012 19:31

Nilesh Oak ji,
A suggestion, this forum gets copied and stored by various 'people' including Bots. Anything you write is recorded for ever. And it may well be used against you (if it can be) to trash your current work. So if you were to even suggest that Ramayan could be millennium old (even for the sake of argument), that will be quoted against you when you go to present the dates of Mahabharata. I would suggest create another handle (or maybe 2 or 3 :)), and start writing under that. Let this handle be there. When producing something of your own, use ths Nilesh Oak one. Don't announce in the other handles (who you are), those who know will know.
Thanks,
Fanne

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 19:46

Ravi_g ji,

What they do in Judo (rules of the game) is honorable.

What you are describing (extremes on two sides - doubt about Astronmy soft or Indiaan with ability to back calculate) is careless and casual.
In american lingo.. "Letting one out, Sunday morning, in the church". Pardon my bad analogy. Yes, it is in the nature of things, but careless and casual, nontheless.

The careless part of their argument is their unwillingess to to do hard work.

In first case, the guy (do you know the name? and the context in which he was questioning the validity of Astornomy software) must show an example where Astronomy software outcome does not agree with observations.

In second case, whoever claimed Indic ability to backcalculate in ancient times, should show how one would do that by employing knowledge (say pre 12th century).

Both of these claims could be corrrect. But until they are willling to do their hard work and substantiate it examples, it is nothing but HOT AIR.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 20:01

ravi_g Ji,

It also helps to frame the discussion as three corners of a Triangle (metaphorical -intuition engine- triangle). Three points being that of
(1) Explanation
(2) prediction
(3) Testing

Not sure if you have read my book yet, but just using Arundhati/vasisthat observation for a min,

Explanation is clear (no argument there), testing is what was not clear how to do and took me ~15 years of work, explanation (When) is what we were always interested in as the outcome.

Kathopanishad talks of "Kshurasya Dhara nishita duratyaya' 'Double aged sword' can cut both ways... but that is the price one must be willing to pay for truth (or approximation to the truth). As I wrote in my book, I was open to final outcome of Arudnhati/Vasistha obervation as either 'ridiculous observation' or 'most critical and valuable observation'. Either way we would have learnt something about Mahabharatat text, its author and knowledge (or lack there of)of astronomy knowledge in ancient India.

Many times the confusion (and arugments such as two sides you cited above) originate from confusion with process of science. Process of science is that of hypothetico deductive method, never of Inductive logic. However you will see, multiple papers are crancked up every year from so called prestigious academic institutions defending 'inductive' method.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 02 Aug 2012 20:09

Nilesh Oak wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Nilesh Oak ji,

a query - are there any calendrical dates available from the Dwapara Yuga?


Of course the bigger problem is, unless one accepts 3102 BC as beginning of Kali yuga, timing of Dwapara yuga is not defined....:-)

That is from today's PoV. The question is whether those who lived in Dwapara Yuga, used any Dwapara Yuga-based calendar to timestamp the events of that time. Can we see such timestamps in the scriptures?

The reason I am asking this is because Sri Yukteswar in his book makes following claims
A samkhya view of the timespan of a yuga is given by Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri, the guru of Paramahansa Yogananda. This is detailed in his book, The Holy Science. According to this view, one complete yuga cycle is equal to one complete "precession of the equinox", a period of approximately 24,000 years. The ascending phase consists of a 1200 year Kali, 2400 year Dwapara, 3600 year Treta and 4800 year Krita (Satya) yuga. The descending phase reverses this order, thus both ascending and descending phases equal 24,000 years. According to calculations given in the book, the most recent yuga change was in 1699, when the Earth passed from Kali Yuga (the lowest material age) to Dvāpara Yuga (the second age associated with electrical, atomic and finger forces). We are in an ascending spiral right now, and will pass into the Tretā Yuga in 4100 CE. According to the book, the motion of the stars moving across the sky (a.k.a.precession) is the observable of the Sun's motion around another star. The quality of human intellect depends on the distance of the Sun and Earth from a certain point in space known as the Grand Center, Magnetic Center or Vishṇunābhi (the navel/center of Lord Vishnu) Vishnu. The closer the Sun is to it, the more subtle energy the Solar System receives, and the greater is the level of human spiritual and overall development. As the Sun moves around its companion star, it brings us closer to or drives us farther away from Vishnunabi, resulting in the rising and falling ages here on Earth.

Yukteswar tells us that the calendars of the higher ages were based on the Yugas, with each era named after its Yuga. Hence, the year 3000 BCE was known as descending Dwapara 102 (because the last descending Dwapara yuga began 102 years earlier in 3102 BCE). He stated that this method was used up until the recent Dark Ages, when knowledge of the connection with the yugas and the precession cycle was lost; "The mistake crept into the almanacs for the first time during the reign of Raja Parikshit, just after the completion of the last descending Dwapara Yuga. At that time Maharaja Yudhisthira, noticing the appearance of the dark Kali Yuga, made over his throne to his grandson, the said Raja Parikshit. Maharaja Yudhisthira, together with all the wise men of his court, retired to the Himalaya Mountains... thus there was no one who could understand the principle of correctly calculating the ages of the several Yugas". Thus, Yukeswar assumed that Raja Parikshit was not trained in any vedic principles even though he alone ruled the world many years. Thus, he interpreted that Yugas are not calculated correctly. Consequently, he gave the theory that when the Dwapara was over and the Kali era began no one knew enough to restart the calendar count. They knew they were in a Kali Yuga (which is why the old Hindu calendar now begins with K.Y.) but the beginning of this calendar (which in 2006 stands at 5108) can still be traced to 3102 BCE, (3102+2006=5108) the start of the last descending Dwapara Yuga. To this day there is still much confusion why the Kali starts at this date or what the correct length of the Yugas should be. Yukteswar suggests that a return to basing the Yuga calendar on the motion of the equinox would be a positive step.


thus he wishes to open the subject of where to set the start of the descending Kali Yuga! Also the question about the length of the Kali Yuga!!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 20:15

Fanne Ji,

Thank you for a great suggestion. I will set up 1 or 2 other handles.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 02 Aug 2012 20:22

RajeshA ji,

reg. your querty on calendar (dwapara yuga/Kali yuga)
(1) What Sri Yukteswar has made is 'claims'. We have to treat it as another opinion. He could be right, or not. We have no way to compare it against something else that sits on solid foundation.

(2) To wit, Mahabharata texts has Five (5) different (and conflicting) theories/proposals for Yuga (definition, duration). Refer to pages 142-146 of my book.

So all I can say is, assuming today is Kaliyuga, as during Kaliyuga, there was no dearth of theories for Yuga during Dwapara yuga (time of Mahabharata).


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