Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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johneeG
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 12 Jan 2013 12:28

Swami Vivekananda on Historicity of Christ
From chapter 8 of
“Notes of some wanderings with Swami Vivekananda”
By Sister Nivedita

Our Master had been talking of Christian ritual as derived from Buddhist, but one of the party would have none of the theory.
"Where did Buddhist ritual itself come from?" She asked.
"From Vedic," answered the Swami briefly.
"Or as it was present also in southern Europe, is it not better to suppose a common origin for it, and the Christian, and the Vedic rituals?"
"No! No!" he replied. "You forget that Buddhism was entirely within Hinduism! Even caste was not attacked it was not yet crystallised, of course! And Buddha merely tried to restore the ideal. He who attains to God in this life, says Manu, is the Brahmin. Buddha would have had it so, if he could."
"But how are Vedic and Christian ritual connected?” persisted his opponent. "How could they be the same? You have nothing even corresponding to the central rite of our worship! "
"Why yes!” said the Swami, "Vedic ritual has its Mass, the offering of food to God, your Blessed Sacrament, our prasadam. Only it is offered sitting, not kneeling, as is common in hot countries. They kneel in Tibet. Then, too, Vedic ritual has its lights, incense, and music."
"But," was the somewhat ungracious argument, "has it any common prayer?" Objections urged in this way always elicited some bold paradox which contained a new and unthought-of generalisation. He flashed down on the question. "No! And neither had Christianity! That is pure Protestantism and Protestantism took it from the Mohammedans, perhaps through Moorish influence! "Mohammedanism is the only religion that has completely broken down the idea of the priest. The leader of prayer stands with his back to the people, and only the reading of the Koran may take place from the pulpit. Protestantism is an approach to this. Even the tonsure existed in India, in the shaven head. I have seen a picture of Justinian receiving the Law from two monks, in which the monks’ heads are entirely shaven. The monk and nun both existed, in pre-Buddhist Hinduism. Europe gets her orders from the Thebaid." “At that rate, then, you accept Catholic ritual as Aryan!
"Yes almost all Christianity is Aryan, I believe. I am inclined to think Christ, never existed. I have doubted that, ever since I had my dream-that dream off Crete!1 Indian and Egyptian ideas met at Alexandria, and went forth to the world, tinctured with Judaism and Hellenism, as Christianity.
"The Acts and Epistles, you know, are older than the Gospels, and S. John is spurious. The only figure we can be sure of is S. Paul, and he was not an eye-witness, and according to his own showing was capable of Jesuitry "by all means save souls" isn't it?


...

"Renan’s life of Jesus is mere froth. It does not touch Strauss, the real antiquarian. Two things stand out as personal living touches in the life of Christ, the woman taken in adultery, the most beautiful story in literature, and the woman at the well. How strangely true is this last, to Indian life! A woman, coming to draw water, finds, seated at the well-side, a yellow- clad monk. He asks her for water. Then He teaches her, and does a little mind-reading and so on. Only in an Indian story, when she went to call the villagers, to look and listen, the monk would have taken his chance, and fled to the forest!
"On the whole, I think old Rabbi Hillel is responsible for the teachings of Jesus, and an obscure Jewish sect of Nazarenes a sect of great antiquity suddenly galvanised by S. Paul, furnished the mythic personality, as a centre of worship.
"The Resurrection, of course, is simply spring-cremation. Only the rich Greeks and Romans had had cremation any way, and the new sun-myth would only stop it amongst the few.

---
1 In travelling from Naples to Port Said, on his way back to India, in January 1897, the Swami had a dream of an old and bearded man, who appeared before him, saying "This is th island of Crete," and showing him a place in the island, that he might afterwards identify. The vision went to say that the religion of Christianity had originated in the island of Crete and in connection with this gave him two European words, one of which was Therapeutae which it declared, were derived from Sanskrit. Therapeutae meant sons (from the Sanskrit putra) of the Theras, or Buddhist monks. From this the Swami was to understand that Christianity had originated in a Buddhist mission. The old man added "The proofs are all here," pointing to the ground. "Dig and you will see!"
As he awoke, feeling that this was no common dream, the Swami rose, and tumbled out on deck. Here he met an officer, turning in from his watch. "What o clock is it?, said the Swami. "Mid-night!" was the answer. "Where are we?" he then said; when, to his astonishment, the answer came back "fifty miles off Crete!”
Our Master used to laugh at himself for the strength of the impression that this dream had made en him. But he could never shake it off. The fact that the second of the two etymologies has been lost is deeply to be regretted. The Swami had to say that before he had had this dream, it had never occurred to him to doubt that the personality of Christ was strictly historic.


Link

One must remember that Vivekananda was working with data-points of his time. Most of these data-points were still in the hands of the colonials. Vivekananda was also educated in the Macualyte education. And he evolved out of this education is a gradual manner.

Despite these limitations, he was able to discern(thanks to his super-natural dream) that X-nity was created by buddhist missionaries. And Buddhism, itself, has roots in Hinduism.

Of course, today, there are more data-points to show that even Islam also had Hindu influence because Arabian Paganism was nothing but Hinduism. Hinduism came to Arabia through the rule of Vikramaditya. He was a great king of India who expanded his kingdom upto Arabia(possibly even parts of Europe). His capital was in Ujjain and Kalidasa was supposedly his contemporary. His court was renowned and 'Navaratnas' are famous. Vikram Samvat calendar is created in honor of his rule.

Image

By the 140 BC political and military turmoil destroyed the Maurayan empire in the north and many kingdoms in the south India. Many Kingdoms emerged at that time. These small kingdoms had good relation with each other and Aryavrata was not doing that badly economicaly. Years passed and again Aryavrata economy rised like a giant, At this juncture, India was invaded by a series of foreigners and barbarians or Mlechchhas from the north western frontier region and central Asia. It signaled the emergance of a leader, a divine soul , Arya Vikramaditya, he successfully combated the foreign invasion and laid foundation of Vardhan Empire and took the throne of Unified Aryavrata. He founded a government for his new kingdom, incorporating both Vedic and Puranic Scholars. The conquest of Kandhara completed, he led his armies to the western frontiers. Further west, he conquered Persia and Babylon. After defeating Babylon he took on the turks which fell like a piece of cake under his belt.


The victories of Babylon, Persia, Turks led him again to the Arabia and sounded the hour for attack on Arabia. When he conquered Arabia, he did so to cheers from the Jewish and Arab Community, who welcomed him as a liberator. He showed great forbearance and respect towards the religious beliefs and cultural traditions of other races. These qualities earned him the respect and homage of all the people over whom he ruled.

The victory over Arabia expressed all the facets of the policy of conciliation which Vikramaditya had followed until then. He presented himself not as a conqueror, but a liberator and the legitimate successor to the crown. He took the title of "King of Aryavrata and Liberator of the Arabs, Turks and Jews". Vikramditya had no thought of forcing conquered people into a single mould, and had the wisdom to leave unchanged the institution of each kingdom he attached to the Aryavrata Crown. Vikramaditya was upright, a great leader of men, generous and benevolent. He spread the Vedic Culture in the land of Arabia. He also reconstructed the temple of Brahma and Mahesh and placed a Jiyotarlinga there. Several other Vedic Temples were made in Babylon, Arabistan, Persia and Turkistan. He brought education in form of reform schools to tribal Arabs. For the first time they god a King that cared for the inhabitants of his Empire. Arabs, Kurds and Persians saw him as 'the annointed of the Lord'.

After the 4 year of Wars that saw whole west Asia under the belt of Vikramaditya Empire he stayed for a year in Arabia till the Mahadev Temple was not completely reconstructed. Temple was first constructed by King Sanjit.
After appointing a Arab as the Governor he returned back to Aryavrata where many Vedic Rishis complained about the Barbarian Cinas People attacking Rishis in Himalyas.

This signaled out the war against Cinas (China). Cinas considered themselves equal to Aryas as they were descendents of Ayu, son of Arya King Pururava but they were no behaving the ways Aryas do. The had become Barbarian and were attacking Rishis of Aryavrata. This led Vikramaditya to launch massive operation against them. The Han and Kushan Dynasty came to knew the plans of Vikramaditya. They reunited themselves and prepared themselves to stop Vikramaditya. From Kashmir during the winter of 7179 BC, Vikramaditya moves to North through Aksai toward valley of the Tibet, and met the formidable defense there. Vikramaditya brought his troops, snow and very cold climate. It was the test of courage of his troops which stood like a rock with him till the Kushans and Hans were forced to move back after a battle that continued for 5 days. After breaking the first formidable line of defense, Vikramditya moved to the interiors of Cinas which folded like a aluminum foil. Finally King Vikramditya had concluded his campaign against Cinas which resulted in unconditional surrender of Han and Kushan empire. Vikramditya opened many Vedic schools in Cinas. After 1 year Vikramditya returned back to Aryavrata. He appointed Han and Kushan dynasty as the governors of Cinas. The Cinas, whom he conquered regarded him as 'Law-giver'. Later he moved to Lanka which fell like a piece of cake.

The reign of Vikramaditya is truly be considered as the golden age of classical Indian history. His vast empire controlled areas like Modern Arabian peninsula, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Some parts of turkey, China, Afghanistan, Korea, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet, Burma, Khazakistan and Srilanka.

Prior to his death, he founded a new capital city at Ujjain in Aryavrata and had established a government for his Empire. He appointed a governor to represent him in each province, however the administration, legislation, and cultural activities of each province was the responsibility of the Governors.

An Advanced History of Asia and S. Europe
by RC Majumdar, HC Raychaudhri, Golnar Mehran & Dr. Abdul-Moti Bayoumi


Glancing through some research material recently, I was pleasantly surprised to come across a reference to a king Vikramaditya inscription found in the Kaaba in Mecca proving beyond doubt that the Arabian Peninsula formed a part of his Indian Empire.

The text of the crucial Vikramaditya inscription, found inscribed on a gold dish hung inside the Kaaba shrine in Mecca, is found recorded on page 315 of a volume known as Sayar-ul-Okul treasured in the Makhtab-e-Sultania library in Istanbul, Turkey. Rendered in free English the inscription says:

"Fortunate are those who were born (and lived) during king Vikrams reign. He was a noble, generous dutiful ruler, devoted to the welfare of his subjects. But at that time we Arabs, oblivious of God, were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting and torture were rampant. The darkness of ignorance had enveloped our country. Like the lamb struggling for her life in the cruel paws of a wolf we Arabs were caught up in ignorance. The entire country was enveloped in a darkness so intense as on a new moon night. But the present dawn and pleasant sunshine of education is the result of the favour of the noble king Vikramaditya whose benevolent supervision did not lose sight of us- foreigners as we were. He spread his sacred religion amongst us and sent scholars whose brilliance shone like that of the sun from his country to ours. These scholars and preceptors through whose benevolence we were once again made cognisant of the presence of God, introduced to His sacred existence and put on the road of Truth, had come to our country to preach their religion and impart education at king Vikramadityas behest."

For those who would like to read the Arabic wording I reproduce it hereunder in Roman script:
"Itrashaphai Santu Ibikramatul Phahalameen Karimun Yartapheeha Wayosassaru Bihillahaya Samaini Ela Motakabberen Sihillaha Yuhee Quid min howa Yapakhara phajjal asari nahone osirom bayjayhalem. Yundan blabin Kajan blnaya khtoryaha sadunya kanateph netephi bejehalin Atadari bilamasa- rateen phakef tasabuhu kaunnieja majekaralhada walador. As hmiman burukankad toluho watastaru hihila Yakajibaymana balay kulk amarena phaneya jaunabilamary Bikramatum".

Further while researching I got one more surprise in 'A History of the Vikings by Gwyn Jones'. Chapter 3


Around 77 BC Sub-Continent was invaded by a series of foreigners from the north western frontier region and central Asia. It signaled the emergance of a leader, Arya Vikramaditya, he successfully combated the foreign invasion and laid foundation of Vardhan Empire and took the throne of Unified Sub-Continent.

The conquest of western frontiers completed he led his armies to the Northern frontiers. Further North , he conquered China and Mangolia. After defeating Chinese he took on the Mongols which fell like a piece of cake under his belt. The victories of China and Mongolia led him to Russia where for the first time his army felt weak. A treaty was signed as Vikramaditya withdrew his forces from Russia. Treaty concluded with Vikramaditya will spread Vedic thoughts through out Russia and Russians will pay him tax. He showed great forbearance and respect towards the religious beliefs and cultural traditions of other races. These qualities earned him the respect and homage of all the people over whom he ruled. People of Russia and Mongolia were living in dark ages. Vikramaditya brought several reforms to the far away land.

Those want orginal text its like as follows:

77 . () . emergance , , () sardan .

, . , . , Vikramaditya . , Vikramaditya , Vedic , . () (). () , . . Vikramaditya .


Link

I don't remember exactly, but I read somewhere that Vikramaditya's conquest to Arabia was gruesome. At the end of the war, beheaded heads of the arabians were stacked in a heap and they seemed like a coconut heap because of the beards of beheaded arabic heads.

Essential point being Hinduism was spread by Vikramaditya to far and wide corners of the world. Islam is a distorted version of from one such branch. The historicity of Mo is also doubtful. But, thats a topic for another post.

The historicity of Jesus is clear: he never existed. He is a crypto-Buddha figure created by Buddhist missionaries. The earliest 'X-ians' were nothing but crypto-buddhist missionaries.
Last edited by johneeG on 12 Jan 2013 13:30, edited 2 times in total.

darshhan
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby darshhan » 12 Jan 2013 12:42

JohneeG ji, If the above link is true then Samrat Vikramaditya's empire was probably closer in size to Ghengiz Khan's empire.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Anantha » 12 Jan 2013 20:28

I have read a book that contains Swami Vivekananda's letters. The Crete incident is mentioned in an letter he wrote to a disciple in Catskill, NY. Swamiji says the dream occured exactly when the ship was passing near Crate (near Greece).

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 13 Jan 2013 22:34

Genetic Evidence in favor of OIT

Reposted from here.
PLOS ONE, November 28, 2012

Population Differentiation of Southern Indian Male Lineages Correlates with Agricultural Expansions Predating the Caste System

Authors: Ganesh Prasad Arun Kumar¹⁺², David F. Soria-Hernanz³⁺⁴, Valampuri John Kavitha¹⁺⁵, Varatharajan Santhakumari Arun¹, Adhikarla Syama¹, Kumaran Samy Ashokan⁶, Kavandanpatti Thangaraj Gandhirajan⁷, Koothapuli Vijayakumar⁶, Muthuswamy Narayanan⁸, Mariakuttikan Jayalakshmi¹, Janet S. Ziegle⁹, Ajay K. Royyuru¹⁰, Laxmi Parida¹⁰, R. Spencer Wells³, Colin Renfrew¹¹, Theodore G. Schurr¹², Chris Tyler Smith¹³, Daniel E. Platt¹⁰, Ramasamy Pitchappan¹⁺²

¹ The Genographic Laboratory, School of Biological Sciences, Madurai Kamaraj University, Madurai, Tamil Nadu, India,
² Chettinad Academy of Research and Education, Kelampakkam, Chennai, Tamil Nadu, India
³ National Geographic Society, Washington, District of Columbia, USA,
⁴ Institut de Biologia Evolutiva (CSIC-UPF), Departament de Ciències Experimentals i de la Salut, Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Spain
⁵ Department of Biotechnology, Mother Teresa Women's University, Kodaikanal, Tamil Nadu, India
⁶ Nilgiri Adivasi Welfare Association, Kota Hall Road, Kothagiri, Tamil Nadu, India
⁷ Government College of Fine Arts, Chennai, Tamil Nadu, India
⁸ Department of Zoology, St. Xaviers College, Palayamkottai, Tamil Nadu, India
⁹ Applied Biosystems, Foster City, California, United States of America
¹⁰ Computational Biology Group, IBM - Thomas J. Watson Research Center, New York, New York, USA
¹¹ McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge, Cambridge, UK
¹² Department of Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
¹³ The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Wellcome Trust Genome Campus, Hinxton, UK

Abstract:
Previous studies that pooled Indian populations from a wide variety of geographical locations, have obtained contradictory conclusions about the processes of the establishment of the Varna caste system and its genetic impact on the origins and demographic histories of Indian populations. To further investigate these questions we took advantage that both Y chromosome and caste designation are paternally inherited, and genotyped 1,680 Y chromosomes representing 12 tribal and 19 non-tribal (caste) endogamous populations from the predominantly Dravidian-speaking Tamil Nadu state in the southernmost part of India. Tribes and castes were both characterized by an overwhelming proportion of putatively Indian autochthonous Y-chromosomal haplogroups (H-M69, F-M89, R1a1-M17, L1-M27, R2-M124, and C5-M356; 81% combined) with a shared genetic heritage dating back to the late Pleistocene (10–30 Kya), suggesting that more recent Holocene migrations from western Eurasia contributed <20% of the male lineages. We found strong evidence for genetic structure, associated primarily with the current mode of subsistence. Coalescence analysis suggested that the social stratification was established 4–6 Kya and there was little admixture during the last 3 Kya, implying a minimal genetic impact of the Varna (caste) system from the historically-documented Brahmin migrations into the area. In contrast, the overall Y-chromosomal patterns, the time depth of population diversifications and the period of differentiation were best explained by the emergence of agricultural technology in South Asia. These results highlight the utility of detailed local genetic studies within India, without prior assumptions about the importance of Varna rank status for population grouping, to obtain new insights into the relative influences of past demographic events for the population structure of the whole of modern India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jan 2013 00:10

Published on May 26, 2010
By U. Mahesh Prabhu
Similarities between Vedic, Aztec & Mayan Culture

In 1940 a little known Buddhist Bhikshu (monk) – Chaman Lal – authored & published a book entitled “Hindu America” with the intent of “revealing” the forgotten story of the ancient Americas, especially India’s “immortal links” with the Aztec and Mayan civilizations of Mexico and the Ayar-Inca rulers of the Ayar Empire.

The book, though coupled with several circumstantial evidences and supporting theories, failed to make its point owing to several misrepresentations. But the very idea of Vedic, aka Harappa & Mohenjo-Daro, civilization having links with their American counterparts, namely Mayan & Aztec, was never completely ruled out. This was because of several resemblances found between the two civilizations in their customs and traditions though geographically miles apart. Here are few compelling similarities:

Panchisi & Patolli

Who has not heard about the game of dice – Panchisi (Pagade in Kannada)? Approximately 130 years ago Sir Edward B. Taylor[1] had point out that the ancient Mexican game of Patolli (see image) was similar in details to the game of Panchisi played in India and the whole region of Southern Asia. Later on Stewart Culin[2] proved that even the “cosmic meaning” of the Mexican game with it’s relation to the four quarters of the world and to the calendars ascribed to them was essentially the same.

Afterwards even Dr. Kroeber[3][i], leading anthropologist from California, observed that “the mathematical probability of two games invented separately agreeing by chance in so many specific features, is very low. The close correspondence between rules of two games indicates a real connection.”

The Lotus Motif

Lotus is one of the most sacred symbols in India even today. Hinduism is essentially embodied in the lotus. One of the most frequent motifs of early Indian art is the lotus plant. Interestingly, the same kind of lotus motif occurs in America at Chichen Itza (Mexico) as a border in the reliefs of the lower room of the Temple of the Tigers. Dr. Robert Heine-Geldern had long pointed out that “the water lily panels at Chichen Itza closely resemble those of southeastern Asia.” Further they state that “It is certainly remarkable that in India as well as in Middle America, the rhizome, a part of the plant not normally visible because it is submerged and deeply buried in mud should have been the basic element of a whole motif and, moreover, be stylized in the same unrealistic manner as undulating creeper.”[4] They were also of the opinion that such a combination of highly specific details cannot be accidental.

In a paper published in American Antiquity, January, 1953, Gordon Ekholm of the American Museum of Natural History, pointed out the close similarity of the lotus motif used in Buddhist (essentially derived from Vedic) and Mayan carvings. He states “Perhaps among the most significant parallels between Hindu-Buddhist and late classic and post-classic Maya art are those we can classify under the heading of lotus panels… For the Maya we will refer to carvings occurring at Chichen Itza and Palenque. The lotus motifs at these two sites are remarkably similar although the more elaborate and more Asiatic-like panels are at Chichen.”

Charak Puja & Volador Ritual

Charak Puja, a very enchanting folk festival of the Southern Belt of Bangladesh and West Bengal, is also known as Nil Puja. The Hindus, even to this day, celebrate it on the last day of Chaitra believing that the festival will carry prosperity by eliminating sorrow and sufferings of the previous year. In this festival a human Charak is made ready and is tied with a hook on his back and then he is moved around with a bar with a long rope. Though it’s risky they arrange. Interestingly the Mexican ritual of Volador practiced in Mexico and Peru is very similar to Charak Puja. “The people take part in this ceremony asking the gods for fertility and bountiful crops.”[5]

Parasol as a Symbol of Royalty: The use of Parasol (Chattra in Sanskrit) is an age old sign of royalty and rank in India, Burma, China and Japan. The Maya Aztec and Incas also used it as a sign of royalty[6]. Frescos of Chak Multum in Yucatan show two types of parasols both of which correspond to types still in use in Southeast Asia.[7][ii]

Thrones and Palanquin: Chaman Lal in his book strongly asserts that “The use of throne and of fans mounted standard like on long poles as insignia of rank and royalty in the countries of Central and South America bears the strong imprint of India.” According to him “… the last Ayar ruler of Peru was carried in his palanquin on the day the Spaniards invaded Peru. His turban with plume and his Mudra (hand symbol) of the hand are unmistakable proofs of his Hindu origin. His four Ranis performed Sati after he was murdered by the Spaniards.”

Use of Zero: After Vedic people the Mayas of Yucatan were the first people to use a zero sign and represent number values by position of basic symbols. The similarity between the Mayan and Vedic Indian zero is undisputedly striking. Though the logical principle are the same the expressions of the principle are quiet dissimilar. While Vedic system of notation was decimal, like the European, the Mayan was Vigesimal (i.e. relating to or based on the number twenty).

Use Elephant in Sculpture: The American writer and explorer, John L Stephens, who, accompanied by Catherwood, an accomplished artist, visited the ruins of Maya civilization in Central America in the middle of the last 20th, detected the elephant on a sculptured pillar at Copan, which he referred to as an “idol”. “The front view”, he wrote, “seems a portrait, probably of some deified king or hero. The two ornaments at the top appear like the trunk of an elephant, an animal unknown in that country.” [8] A reproduction of one of the ornaments in question should leave no doubts as to the identity of animal depicted by ancient American sculptor. It is not only an elephant, but an Indian elephant, a species found in India, Ceylon (Sri Lanka), Borneo and Sumatra. The African elephant has larger ears, a less elevated head and a bulging forehead without the indentation at the root of the trunk which is a characteristic of the Indian species. The African elephant has in the past been less made use by man than the Indian, and has consequently not figured prominently in African religious life. In India the elephant was tamed since Vedic period.


[1] Sir Edward B. Taylor, Anthropology: an introduction to the study of man and civilization, London: Macmillan 1881 – similarities between Hindu Panchisi and Mexican Patolli

[2] Stewart Culin, Chess and Playing-Cards (Report, United States National Museum for 1896, pp. 665-942, 1898), p. 855

[3] Charles John Erasmus, Patolli, Pachisi, and the Limitation of Possibilities, South-Western Journal of Anthropology Vol. 6, 1950. Pp 369

[4] Smithsonian Institution, Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 151. Can be accessed online at: http://www.archive.org/stream/bulletin1 ... t_djvu.txt

[5] Sergioy Rosa, The ritual of the “Volador” (flyer) at Guachimonton @ http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/tt/8f66c/

[6] Jean Leonard Gilder & Joseph Benson Gilder, The Critic Vol. 11, Good Literature Pub. Co. 1884-1906 pp. 256

[7] Shyam Singh Shashi, The World of Nomads, Lotus Press Publisher 2009, pp. 213.

[8] J. L. Stephens, Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucata, London edition, 1842, Vol. I, p. 156.
__________________________________

Author: Bikshu Chaman Lal
Publication Date: July 1940 (First Edition)

Hindu America [Download] [Webcache]

I would recommend that one downloads the book and has a peak at it. Chaman Lal's travelogue through America's may provide one with some entertainment AND insight!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2013 07:02

RajeshA wrote:Genetic Evidence in favor of OIT

Reposted from here.
PLOS ONE, November 28, 2012

Population Differentiation of Southern Indian Male Lineages Correlates with Agricultural Expansions Predating the Caste System

Nice. Thanks Adding to my collection of papers! I am going to call it the Arunkumar (first author) paper for ref.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ugandhar » 15 Jan 2013 03:49

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21016700
Another migration from India to Australia around 4000-5000 years ago. Original paper at http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/01/09/1211927110 which requires subscription, but supporting data can be accessed.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby disha » 15 Jan 2013 04:17

^^^ You beat me to it, this is actually a game changer

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/32kZ6D9PXsnaeLPVkcgN8H/The-4000yearold-Indian-link.html

I always thought Dingo looked like the Indian dog. Never got around to interact deeply with aborgines - was mostly with urban "fallen" ones.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Jan 2013 13:05

the andaman and nicobarese are to me at least a clear link to australian aboroginal peoples

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 15 Jan 2013 13:23

Damn, you boys are fast - I thought i was about to contribute something with a little link finally :D and there's like three posts on it already!!!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 14:06

Lalmohan wrote:the andaman and nicobarese are to me at least a clear link to australian aboroginal peoples


Lalmohan ji,

the Andamanese may be related to the Australian Aborigines who arrived in Australia 40,000-45,000 years ago, but the ones being talked about arrived there just 4,000 years ago, i.e. for the Indian Civilization like yesterday. They speak of Dravidian-speaking people in this case.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 14:24

Genetic Evidence in favor of OIT

Reposted from here.

Image

PNAS January 8, 2013, vol. 110 no. 2

Genome-wide data substantiate Holocene gene flow from India to Australia

Authors: Irina Pugachᵃ, Frederick Delfinᵃ,ᵇ, Ellen Gunnarsdóttirᵃ,ᶜ, Manfred Kayserᵈ, and Mark Stonekingᵃ

ᵃ Department of Evolutionary Genetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany;
ᵇ DNA Analysis Laboratory, Natural Sciences Research Institute, University of the Philippines Diliman, Quezon City 1101, Philippines;
ᶜ deCODE Genetics, 101 Reykjavik, Iceland;
ᵈ Department of Forensic Molecular Biology, Erasmus MC University Medical Center Rotterdam, 3000 CA, Rotterdam, The Netherlands

Abstract:
The Australian continent holds some of the earliest archaeological evidence for the expansion of modern humans out of Africa, with initial occupation at least 40,000 y ago. It is commonly assumed that Australia remained largely isolated following initial colonization, but the genetic history of Australians has not been explored in detail to address this issue. Here, we analyze large-scale genotyping data from aboriginal Australians, New Guineans, island Southeast Asians and Indians. We find an ancient association between Australia, New Guinea, and the Mamanwa (a Negrito group from the Philippines), with divergence times for these groups estimated at 36,000 y ago, and supporting the view that these populations represent the descendants of an early “southern route” migration out of Africa, whereas other populations in the region arrived later by a separate dispersal. We also detect a signal indicative of substantial gene flow between the Indian populations and Australia well before European contact, contrary to the prevailing view that there was no contact between Australia and the rest of the world. We estimate this gene flow to have occurred during the Holocene, 4,230 y ago. This is also approximately when changes in tool technology, food processing, and the dingo appear in the Australian archaeological record, suggesting that these may be related to the migration from India.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 14:29

It would in fact be interesting to know exactly among which aborigines in Australia more of the "South Indian" DNA markers were found. Perhaps it is time to renew the bonds between them and us.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 14:36

Somethings have come to light lately. Surely many suspected it earlier or there was anecdotal evidence of it, but now a few things have become substantiated by scientific evidence.

1) The Roma in Europe originate from the Doma people of India (Migration ~ 607–1026 CE).
2) The Australian Aborigines have had South Indian genetic flow (Migration ~2218 BCE).

We will have to explore more in the Americas as well among the native Americans.
Last edited by RajeshA on 15 Jan 2013 14:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Jan 2013 14:37

rajeshji - yes you are quite right. also one of the other books you referenced earlier in this thread (After the Ice) has interesting data on successive waves of migrants through australia and differences in their living models. thanks for reccommending that read!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 14:49

Lalmohan ji,

if you are reading that book - "After the Ice", and something strikes you as interesting and just in case it has some connection to India, feel free to write a short commentary/review for the others.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Jan 2013 14:55

the book has some chapters on india but its not rich in detail and he draws no migratory conclusions. it is interesting to learn about the lifestyles of ice age peoples and their habits. also i suspect that in india not enough archeology has taken place as yet - and it is entirely possible that the climate and terrain have not favoured the preservation of sites

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 15:44

The genetic data on Australian Aboriginals came from Northern Territory of Australia. So it is the Aborigines of Northern Australia that are related to "Dravidian speakers from Southern Indian".

Image

Somebody needs to look at the language of these Australian Aborigines and see if influence can be traced from Indian languages.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 15:50

If some gurus here who know about Indian history of sea travel, please do post on the subject. It seems India was a big marine/naval power in our past!

Perhaps we traveled to Australia and the Americas, and this knowledge needs to be brought to light.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Klaus » 15 Jan 2013 18:05

RajeshA wrote:the dingo appear in the Australian archaeological record, suggesting that these may be related to the migration from India


Discovery of mummified dog in Mexico could reveal secrets of ancient tribes.

Experts believe that the dog was domesticated by a local tribe and used in hunting expeditions.

"It reinforces the idea that dogs were placed as companions in the funerary traditions of the region's nomads, it also presents the possibility that these animals were domesticated," Archaeologist Alejandro Bautista Valdespino said.


Perhaps the dingo descended from feral ancestors of the dogs accompanying sea-faring people from the Indian sub-continent. Maybe time to study the comparative genealogy of the Indian dhole and the dingo?

However, this raises an important question about the people themselves. If they arrive in Australia around 2220 BC, are they an complete admixture of ANI and ASI? What does this mean for the 40,000-60,000 YBP arrived inhabitants of Australia, who are supposed to be groups of the original ASI. Doesnt this create a small (ANI+ASI)+ASI admixture within indigenous Australian populations (maybe not in the same proportions as in the Indian subcontinent)?

India and Australia (Sahul) have served as 'nurseries' for the infant human civilizations up until the latter was truly isolated at the end of the last ice age, with the creation of the Indo-China Sea and waterways around Timor. The former continued to serve until the arrival of monotheistic memes has altered its social fabric.
Last edited by Klaus on 15 Jan 2013 18:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Jan 2013 18:09

at some stage we walked to australia, later we sailed there
the later aboriginal arrivals have documented their sea arrival in rock art

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Klaus » 15 Jan 2013 18:17

RajeshA wrote:
Perhaps we traveled to Australia and the Americas, and this knowledge needs to be brought to light.


RajeshA ji,

Not claiming expertise on this subject. Sea routes during the late ice age would have been much different from what they are today, this observation is not just restricted to the latest piece of news about Indian genes in Australia ~4237 YBP. Actually, this time would have seen the ice sheets at the present positions world-wide and the flooding of SE Asia creating the Indo-China Sea and the inter-Indonesian waterways including the Malacca and Lombok straits.

Prior to the retreat of the ice sheets, ships from the subcontinent would have to circumvent the southern reaches of the Australian continent to reach the Pacific. Traders from Eastern India could reach cities in the Philippines through a Southeast Asian landroute. Vast stretches of low lying land, SE Asia and Sahul would have been continents in their own right.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_23686 » 15 Jan 2013 18:17

RajeshA wrote:If some gurus here who know about Indian history of sea travel, please do post on the subject. It seems India was a big marine/naval power in our past!

Perhaps we traveled to Australia and the Americas, and this knowledge needs to be brought to light.


As a kid I was very interested in adventure stories, and remembered this guy's name for the shear feat of crossing Atlantic Ocean on a boat made up of papyrus reed to prove that America could have been settled by Egyptians.

Thor Heyerdahl

In 1969 and 1970, Heyerdahl built two boats from papyrus and attempted to cross the Atlantic Ocean from Morocco in Africa. Based on drawings and models from ancient Egypt, the first boat, named Ra (after the Egyptian Sun god), was constructed by boat builders from Lake Chad using papyrus reed obtained from Lake Tana in Ethiopia and launched into the Atlantic Ocean from the coast of Morocco. After a number of weeks, Ra took on water after its crew made modifications to the vessel that caused it to sag and break apart. The ship was abandoned and the following year, another similar vessel, Ra II, was built of totora by Demetrio, Juan and Jose Limachi from Lake Titicaca in Bolivia and likewise set sail across the Atlantic from Morocco, this time with great success. The boat reached Barbados, thus demonstrating that mariners could have dealt with trans-Atlantic voyages by sailing with the Canary Current.[18]


You see, you don't need Titanic to cross oceans. Don't forget the reference of South America in Ramayana, as pointed by Nilesh Oak ji.

viewtopic.php?p=1332084#p1332084

Nilesh Oak wrote:
RajeshA wrote:So where did the knowledge of elephants come to the Mayas? Interesting query!


The entire South America including Mexico is very interesting. Few works do exists (P V Vartak, Chaman Lal and few others) and these need to be revised in the light of new researches.

I became interested in Mayan, Aztecs and Incas, long before my love affair with Archeo-Astronomy. Currently reading about Cuzco/Lake Titicaca. Heading there Dec 2013 (1 year 4 months from now).

Planning to visit Copan (Honduras) and Tikal (Guatemala) durign Spring 2013. Been to Mexico.. Tula, Teotiacuan, Chichen Itza, etc.

I realized that I must put forward chronology of Mahabharata and Ramayana first, before exploring South America for its connections with ancient India.

Now that RejeshA ji, you brought up the subject, here is just highlight of what to come.. may not be part of my book on Dating of Ramayana.. but this stuff is in the works too...


Image
Known as candlebra of Andes, on North west coast of Paracas - Bay of Pisco, Peru (tentative plan to be there in Dec 2013 as well).

In Ramayana, Sugriva explain direction east, to search party going east - in search of Sita- and asks Vanara party to look for a structure, after crossing Kshir-udak (ocean)

त्रिशिराः काञ्चनः केतुस्तालस्तस्य महात्मनः |
स्थापितः पर्वतस्याग्रे विराजति सवेदिकः || ४७||

पूर्वस्यां दिशि निर्माणं कृतं तत्त्रिदशेश्वरैः |
ततः परं हेममयः श्रीमानुदयपर्वतः || ४८||

Compare description of first verse with picture above. Secon verse describes who built this , when and why!

(This discovery, in the context of Ramayana is that of Dr. P V Vartak, as far as I know). My contibution is not unlike that of squirrel (non Valimiki Ramayana versions) to Nala-setu (work of Vartak).

My contriubtion is to notice सवेदिका portion of the shlok. Notice square (vedi) at the bottom/base of this trident.
There is much much more exciting stuff realted to this, but for now, this will do.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Klaus » 15 Jan 2013 18:23

Lalmohan wrote:the later aboriginal arrivals have documented their sea arrival in rock art


The famous example of this is the Ocean Mother cave painting in the Kimberley region of NT. The subject of this painting is supposed to have been heavily pregnant with multiple children during the sea voyage, giving birth to a few at sea and the rest on shore. The Kimberley tribes believe that they are the descendants of this woman.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby sanjeevs » 15 Jan 2013 18:38

RajeshA wrote:The genetic data on Australian Aboriginals came from Northern Territory of Australia. So it is the Aborigines of Northern Australia that are related to "Dravidian speakers from Southern Indian".


Does it say in that paper that the the genetic linkage is via "Dravidian speakers from Southern Indian"?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 18:52

When one for a second tries to imagine the earlier migrations, there is something captivating about them. Those who settled in Australia 40,000-45,000 years ago did probably walk the way. Interesting in its own right, this migration is.

However something closer to today, the migrants who reached Australia in 2,218 BCE were already coming from an established civilization. This study was based on mitochondrial DNA, so the migrants were traveling with their families as well. Can't say from where they started their journey by sea to Australia - it could have been from India, but could also have been from some port in Southeast Asia.

What is certain is that there were Indians traveling to the East from India along with families and also capable of sea travel. We also know that the East was simply full of Indian cultural influence.

It is highly probable that we had Dharmic kingdoms in Southeast Asia at least as far back as 2,218 years, for that can be considered as the date of arrival of Indians in Australia. But in Southeast Asia - in Philippines, in Indonesia, in Vietnam we would have been there long before that.

Sure there were a few civilizations in the Middle-East which, at least for now can be considered as autonomously grown, but rest of Asia was Indian Civilization, was India! And if the Americas also had considerable Indian influence, then they too can pretty much be considered a part of it.

We were the first Explorer Civilization!

The Agenda for us Bharatiyas is to at rediscover our past, so that the next generations of Bhartiyas know who we were, and they too aspire to become Explorers.

Too long we have been feeding on the reports and travelogues of the Westerners to understand the world. We need to cut out the Western middleman in our search for knowledge of places far away.

If our exploration genes again become active, may be we will be the ones taking the rest of humanity by hand and showing them the galaxy.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 18:55

sanjeevs ji,

from the various articles on Internet on the subject, that is what I found some of the scientists to be saying. At the moment the full paper is not freely accessible.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 19:01

Klaus ji,

if you come across some photos of the Ocean Mother Cave Painting, please do link here.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby sanjeevs » 15 Jan 2013 19:08

RajeshA ji,

Based on my readings, people have been ascribing this genetic contribution to 1. "Dravidians from S. India" 2. "Veddoids from India" 3. Links via Indonesia. 4. etc, etc.

So it seems to be all terribly speculative based on each person's current pet theory :-)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Klaus » 15 Jan 2013 19:45

RajeshA wrote:if you come across some photos of the Ocean Mother Cave Painting, please do link here.


According to Aboriginal dreaming lore:

The traditional belief in this part of Australia is that the creation mother walked across the land carrying woven bags that held the first man and woman for each of the tribes. As she went she would drop off these bags and create a language and culture for each group. Whilst the language and customs differ amongst the various groups in West Arnhem they all use the same Moiety’s and skin names and they share this belief about the creation mother.


Image

The most striking picture of all shows of the Lightning Man. He is shown squatting with a hammer in each hand resting on his knees and surrounded by a circle that represents both the lightning flash and the sound of thunder.


Image

IMO, its a crude rendering of the famous Shiva Nataraja, immortalized by the (later) Chola Bronzes. These would have come after this migration to Australia around 2230 BC.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Nilesh Oak » 15 Jan 2013 21:05

Quick update...

(1) I met with Dr. P V Vartak. I did convey respects and best wishes of this thread members to him. He is 80 and remains extremely active. His books are wonderful and many of them have been now translated in English.

(2) I also met with Ravindra Godbole (his book 'meanings of Vedas' was quoted by RajeshA ji). It was a great meeting.

(3) I also visited BORI - Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute in Pune. They have great collection of old manuscripts.

(4) Visited Keasariwada (place of Lokamnya Tilak). I wanted to purchase all 8 volumes of Tilak's work. It was not available, still asked them to photocopy 8 editorials written by Tilak on Mahabharata. It may have clues to the confusion (and origin) of 3102 BC as the beginning of Kaliyuga.

(5) Marathi translation of my book (first draft) is 80% complete. Met with 2 publishers and they accepted it for publication (when ready).

(6) Dr. P V Vartak has mentioned my work in 2 of his books and his assistant told me that Dr. Vartak makes a detailed mention of my work in each of his speeches.

(7) My work on dating of Ramayana continues. First draft should be ready by April 2013. The work is on a solid footing and will create another excellent chronological landmark in the context of Indian history.

(8) I also met with few BRF buddies in India and we had a Mini BRF TED session.

That is for now.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 21:15

Nilesh Oak ji,

Naye Varsh ki Shubh Kaamnayen! :)

Glad to know of your successful trip to India. I was sure that your absence from here, though a loss for us, was coming to good use with you making progress on Ramayana.

Be assured that everybody is very keen to know of your take on Rama's history, but we will wait for your work to reach peak maturity before tasting it! :)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jan 2013 21:22

Klaus wrote:
The most striking picture of all shows of the Lightning Man. He is shown squatting with a hammer in each hand resting on his knees and surrounded by a circle that represents both the lightning flash and the sound of thunder.


Image

IMO, its a crude rendering of the famous Shiva Nataraja, immortalized by the (later) Chola Bronzes. These would have come after this migration to Australia around 2230 BC.

Klaus ji,

thanks for the photos.

One could interpret the image differently. In India we know that Ganga flows from the Kesh of Shiva, and the Ganga flows into the Ocean. So basically one could say, Ganga is filling Samudra. As Samudra surrounds Australia on all sides, that water which flows out of the Head of Shiva (Lightning Man) surrounds whole of Australia. This would have been apparent to those who crossed the oceans to reach Australia. Water surrounds all land.

Just speculating.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RamaY » 15 Jan 2013 23:47

Sorry if posted already

Ancient migration: Genes link Australia with India

Australia experienced a wave of migration from India about 4,000 years ago, a genetic study suggests.

It was thought the continent had been largely isolated after the first humans arrived about 40,000 years ago until the Europeans moved in in the 1800s.

But DNA from Aboriginal Australians revealed there had been some movement from India during this period.

The researchers believe the Indian migrants may have introduced the dingo to Australia.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 16 Jan 2013 04:50

Leishmaniasis: A Genetic Link Found in Far-Flung Victims of a Lethal Form of a Parasitic Disease

Yeh Kya Keh Rahe Hain?

Whether someone bitten by a sandfly goes on to develop the most lethal form of leishmaniasis is determined partly by the victim’s own genes, a new study suggests.Leishmaniasis, caused by parasites injected by sandfly bites, has two forms: painful skin sores (known to American troops in Iraq as “Baghdad boils”) or, in less than 20 percent of cases, the visceral form, sometimes called “kala azar,” that attacks the organs and is fatal if untreated. About 400,000 visceral cases develop annually, 90 percent of them in three places far from one another and with different parasite subspecies: northeastern Brazil, the India-Bangladesh border and the Horn of Africa.Because the disease hits some families harder, a genetic propensity to get it has been long suspected. The study, published in Nature Genetics last week, compared DNA in almost 6,000 blood samples from India and Brazil. Both Indians and Brazilians who got visceral leishmaniasis had similar DNA variations.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2013 04:57

Jhujar Very Interesting.

North Eastern Barzil is coastal area, Indo-Bangladesh border is also coastal area. Horn of Africa is again a coastal area.

Horn of Africa->India->South America
or India >Horn of Africa->South America

Bji would jump on this info.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 16 Jan 2013 05:11

what do they mean by "similar DNA variations"? that would perhaps only show some light

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 16 Jan 2013 05:38

SaiK wrote:what do they mean by "similar DNA variations"? that would perhaps only show some light

Sometimes certain DNA mutations/variations occur independently - so we won't know until more work is done. But the link may still be interesting. The sandflies that spread the disease might have traveled with humans.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Klaus » 16 Jan 2013 14:59

RajeshA wrote:One could interpret the image differently. In India we know that Ganga flows from the Kesh of Shiva, and the Ganga flows into the Ocean. So basically one could say, Ganga is filling Samudra. As Samudra surrounds Australia on all sides, that water which flows out of the Head of Shiva (Lightning Man) surrounds whole of Australia. This would have been apparent to those who crossed the oceans to reach Australia. Water surrounds all land.


Rajesh ji, I'd be glad to admit that this interpretation is far more linear and in tune with what those early migrants might have thought about their existence and that of their surroundings. Indeed just testing the waters here because the Chola Bronze Nataraja indeed is a very complex art-form which triggers specific neurons. The Lightning Man OTOH is definitely a throwback to earlier times, but then we can never say that complexity of thoughts and philosophies need to have come with 'advancement', 'modernising' or maturity of a civilization, whatever all those terms mean.

In that note, I just implicitly trying to get rid of the above notion of linearly progressing advancement of society, atleast in this thread if not anywhere else.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SaiK » 16 Jan 2013 20:54

shiv wrote:
SaiK wrote:what do they mean by "similar DNA variations"? that would perhaps only show some light

Sometimes certain DNA mutations/variations occur independently - so we won't know until more work is done. But the link may still be interesting. The sandflies that spread the disease might have traveled with humans.

I was thinking from the life-cycle of these sand-flies. one aspect is disease traveling.. but my other thought was if these sand-flies themselves migrate in certain fashion carrying the diseases in the tropical regions.

Now, if the human DNA variations are similar to post-infection-mutation period analysis, then we could prove that humans of certain time periods migrated to the west, and got bitten by these sand-flies, that the people carry similar variations.

q: can we predict migration time periods when the sand-flies spread happened (hopeful earlier than human migration)?


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