Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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UlanBatori
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Jun 2014 05:26

Hey experts, b4 u scoot, pls show me how to produce Devanagari characters here. Thx!!

(copying from Google Translator works when I do my chaste Ukrainian curses on that thread, but I don't know why).

johneeG
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 04 Jun 2014 11:34

RajeshA wrote:johneeG garu,

If I may say so, there are different variants of AIT. We should give serious thought whether the second variant does not come and bite us in the backside as well, especially as the second is even more devious as it preys on our own native sources for legitimacy. The geographic center of gravity has to remain Bharatiya Upamahādvīpa.


RajeshA saar,
I understand what you are saying. But, so far, honestly I have tried to find out what the truth is without putting too much thought into whether its AIT or OIT. I am relying mostly on ancient Bhaarathiya sources like Raamayana and Mahabhaaratha.

It seems Meru is supposed to be in Eastern Iran(near the border of Pakistan). It seems Meru was considered the center of earth. I looked at the world map and it is approximately the center. So, if that point is used as the center, the rest of the directions are decided based on that. East of Meru is east. West of Meru is west. North of Meru is North and South of Meru is south. For North and South, Vindhya can also be used for demarcation.

In Mahabhaaratha, it is said that East was sacred because it is created first. And therefore, East is called 'Purva'(Earlier) because it was created first. If one understands this point, it means that East of Meru(i.e. eastern Iran) is the ancient land and rest of the lands came later according to Mahabhaaratha.

Now, there is another terminology: Jambudhveepa, Bharathvarsha, and Bharathakanda.

It seems Jambudhveepa means Asia. Whether Europe is also part of it or not, is not known to me. Bharathavarsha seems to be comprised of Lands starting from Iran to Malaysia and from Kyrgyzstan to Sri Lanka. This is the Larger Bhaarath.

The smaller Bhaarath i.e. Bharatha-kanda(or the country Bhaarath) maybe starting from east of Meru which means starting from Pakistan to Myanmar and Tibet to Sri Lanka.

venug wrote:JohneeG garu, message for you here:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4051&p=1665551#p1665551


Venug saar,
Sorry for not replying earlier. But, I'll reply to you later. But, it seems like a difficult task because that fellow is quoting from colonial sources and talking about 'pre-vedic' origins. Wading through such nonsense can be very difficult and refuting it is not easy because they will keep quoting some colonial source or the other. It is like arguing about race theory using Nazi sources. Unless the sources themselves are rejected, there is no way to clear the air.

UlanBatori wrote:Why does this debate always look WESTWARDS? What about East, Southeast and North?

1. Kampuchea, Laos, Thailand, Indonesia, all have extensive SD culture, much purer (see Bali for instance) than what is currently seen in desh. I have been unable to find serious research on the origins of these.

2. Given the extensive treatment of Manasarovar (which by my reckoning is one of the most forbidding parts, even Mongolians dread that hike) is it not possible that there is a very strong NORTHERN component to SD origins?

3. If culture spread to Thailand, why was Myanmar bypassed, or was it? A coastal/river-based (BBC term is Riparian :P ) mode of spreading would have crossed the Ganga/Brahmaputra/Padma delta across present BD and gone into Myanmar, then Thailand, then Malaysia. Did the spread have to wait until ocean commerce spread from S.India to SL and Indonesia? Was the geography of Indonesia the same as it is today, given the extreme tectonics near Andamans/Aceh? IOW, was there a land link?

4. I have personally seen Sanskrit inscriptions above an arched doorway in downtown Fukuoka, Japan. Seemed the sort of ancient place where it might not be entirely advisable for round-eyed foreigners to go in and chit-chat.

Maybe a whole discussion should be focused on the North and East aspects. For instance why assume that Punjab was the origin of the Vedas? To me it sounds equally plausible that they came down from the Manasarovar region, spreading to Ulan Bator and down to Northern Arunachal.


Ulan Batori saar,

East is covered here. The following is about Sugriva's description of Eastern direction to monkeys searching for Seetha amma.

Nilesh Oak wrote:Sugriva's descriptions can be corrborated (some better than others)....

To North .. upto Arctic sea(Siberia) via Gobi
To west... via Iran...all the way to either eastern part of mediterrian (assuming mediterian sea existed) or upto west coast of Spain.
To East.. Burma, Thailand, Indonesia..~ Japan.. crossing Pacific upto coastal areas of Chile/Peru
To south - Lanka, but could be as far as Antartica.


Link to original post

RajeshA wrote:Paracas Candelabra

ImageImage

On Paracas

Aashay Gune
Aashay Gune wrote:त्रिशिराः कांचनः केतुस्तालस्य च महात्मनः
स्थापितः पर्वतस्याग्रे विराजति सवेदिकः
पूर्वस्यां दिशि निर्माणं कृतं तत त्रि दशे श्वरै:
ततः परं हेममयः श्रीमानुदयपर्वतः


This is the 'shlok' in Ramayana where Sugreev asks his 'Vanars' to go East in search of Seeta. He explains that 'Devas' built this structure to mark the Eastern Boundary of their kingdom. The structure is the golden colored 'Trishul' which is carved on a mountain. Further he explains that beyond this 'Trishul' is a huge mountain - which is the existing Andes Mountain Range! This structure is still present at Paracas (,Ica, Nasca,) Peru and the explanation matches its existence perfectly! :)

the ancient Ramayan says that except for America ( which was occupied by Danavas ) rest of the world was ruled by the Devas... and both of them were human races ( rather ' mavas bhau' ekmekanche ) There are many references of Peru and South America in Ramayana.


Nilesh Oak wrote:The entire South America including Mexico is very interesting. Few works do exists (P V Vartak, Chaman Lal and few others) and these need to be revised in the light of new researches.

I became interested in Mayan, Aztecs and Incas, long before my love affair with Archeo-Astronomy. Currently reading about Cuzco/Lake Titicaca. Heading there Dec 2013 (1 year 4 months from now).

Planning to visit Copan (Honduras) and Tikal (Guatemala) durign Spring 2013. Been to Mexico.. Tula, Teotiacuan, Chichen Itza, etc.

I realized that I must put forward chronology of Mahabharata and Ramayana first, before exploring South America for its connections with ancient India.

Now that RejeshA ji, you brought up the subject, here is just highlight of what to come.. may not be part of my book on Dating of Ramayana.. but this stuff is in the works too...


Image
Known as candlebra of Andes, on North west coast of Paracas - Bay of Pisco, Peru (tentative plan to be there in Dec 2013 as well).

In Ramayana, Sugriva explain direction east, to search party going east - in search of Sita- and asks Vanara party to look for a structure, after crossing Kshir-udak (ocean)

त्रिशिराः काञ्चनः केतुस्तालस्तस्य महात्मनः |
स्थापितः पर्वतस्याग्रे विराजति सवेदिकः || ४७||

पूर्वस्यां दिशि निर्माणं कृतं तत्त्रिदशेश्वरैः |
ततः परं हेममयः श्रीमानुदयपर्वतः || ४८||

Compare description of first verse with picture above. Secon verse describes who built this , when and why!

(This discovery, in the context of Ramayana is that of Dr. P V Vartak, as far as I know). My contibution is not unlike that of squirrel (non Valimiki Ramayana versions) to Nala-setu (work of Vartak).

My contriubtion is to notice सवेदिका portion of the shlok. Notice square (vedi) at the bottom/base of this trident.
There is much much more exciting stuff realted to this, but for now, this will do.


Link to original post

johneeG wrote:
तत्र तत् कोपजम् तेजः कृतम् हयमुखम् महत् || ४-४०-४८
अस्य आहुः तन् महावेगम् ओदनम् स चराचरम् |

"There exists a fantastically refulgent Fire in the form of Horse's Face that originated from the anger of Sage Aurasa. The victuals to that Fire is said to be that highly speedy waves of the ocean, together with all of the mobile and sessile beings of the world at the close of each Era. [4-40-48b, 49a](This seems to be a volcano in the pacific ocean)

तत्र विक्रोशताम् नादो भूतानाम् सागर ओकसाम् |
श्रूयते च असमर्थानाम् दृष्ट्वा तत् वडवा मुखम् || ४-४०-४९

"There the high squealing sounds of oceanic beings dwelling undersea are audible, and although they are capable ones, they are incapacitated on feeling Fire from the Horse Mouth as such they yell. [4-40-49b, c]

स्वादु उदस्य उत्तरे देशे योजनानि त्रयोदश |
जातरूप शिलो नाम सुमहान् कनक प्रभः || ४-४०-५०

"On the northern province of that soft-water ocean there is a hugely enormous mountain named Jaataruupa-shila, Golden Rock Mountain, which glitters like gold and which spreads across thirteen yojana-s. [4-40-50]

तत्र चन्द्र प्रतीकाशम् पन्नगम् धरणी धरम् |
पद्म पत्र विशालाक्षम् ततो द्रक्ष्यध वानराः || ४-४०-५१
आसीनम् पर्वतस्य अग्रे सर्व भूत नमस्कृतम् |
सहस्र शिरसम् देवम् अनंतम् नील वाससम् || ४-४०-५२

"There you shall see then, oh, vanara-s, the lotus-petal broad-eyed thousand-hooded serpent god in black clothing, namely Ananta, sitting on the top of that mountain and sustaining the earth on his head, who will be like moon in his brilliance and whom all beings hold in reverence. [4-40-51, 52]
(American Indians i.e. Red Indians worship the snakes. Infact, their tiara consists of snake emblem.)

त्रिशिराः कांचनः केतुः तालः तस्य महात्मनः |
स्थापितः पर्वतस्य अग्रे विराजति स वेदिकः || ४-४०-५३

"A golden pylon resembling a palm tree with three branches as its heads is established on the peak of that mountain as the insignia of that great-souled Ananta, and it will be lustrous with a golden podium. [4-40-53]

पूर्वस्याम् दिशि निर्माणम् कृतम् तत् त्रिदशेश्वरैः |
ततः परम् हेममयः श्रीमान् उदय पर्वतः || ४-४०-५४
तस्य कोटिः दिवम् स्पृष्ट्वा शत योजनम् आयता |
जातरूपमयी दिव्या विराजति स वेदिका || ४-४०-५५

"That pylon of palm tree is constructed as the easterly compass by celestials gods, and beyond that a completely golden mountain is there, namely the august Udaya Mountain, the Mt. Sunrise, beyond which it is all west. The pinnacles of Mt. Sunrise will be touching heavens for their height is hundred yojana-s and that divine mountain greatly glitters for it is completely golden, and it is pedestalled with suchlike glittering mountains. [4-40-54, 55]
(This description matches the Candelabra perfectly... So, by the above interpretation of the shlokas, it means Andes Mountains are Purva-adhri or Udaya Parvatha?
)

सालैः तालैः तमालैः च कर्णिकारैः च पुष्पितैः |
जातरूपमयैः दिव्यैः शोभते सूर्य सन्निभैः || ४-४०-५६

"That Mt. Sunrise will be splendorous with well flowered and beautiful saala, palm, Tamaala, and Karnikaara trees which are completely golden in hue and which will be glittering similar to sun. [4-40-56]

तत्र योजन विस्तारम् उच्छ्रितम् दश योजनम् |
शृंगम् सौमनसम् नाम जातरूपमयम् ध्रुवम् || ४-४०-५७

"On the apex of that Mt. Sunrise there is another pinnacle with one yojana width and ten yojana-s height named Saumanasa, which is completely golden and very firm. [4-40-57]
(This Saumanasa may be a mountain among the Andes, or it may also be a description of a golden pyramid on the top of a mountain.)

तत्र पूर्वम् पदम् कृत्वा पुरा विष्णुः त्रिविक्रमे |
द्वितीयम् शिखरम् मेरोः चकार पुरुषोत्तमः || ४-४०-५८
"Earlier while treading the three worlds in the incarnation of Trivikrama, the Supreme Person Vishnu made His first foothold on that pinnacle Saumanasa, and the second on the pinnacle of Mt. Meru to tread the heavens. [4-40-58]
(If it is a pyramid, then it may have been built to honor the Trivikrama i.e. Vamana.)

उत्तरेण परिक्रम्य जंबू द्वीपम् दिवाकरः |
दृश्यो भवति भूयिष्ठम् शिखरम् तन् महोच्छ्रयम् || ४-४०-५९
"The Sun is by far discernable in Jambu Dwiipa when he rises on this zenithal pinnacle Saumanasa, after he had circled the Jambu Dwiipa in a northerly route. [4-40-59]
(That makes perfect sense! So, when it is dawn(brahma-muhurtha i.e. 3:00 A.M.) in Jambu Dwipa(Asia?), the Sun is around Andes Mountain...)

तत्र वैखानसा नाम वालखिल्या महर्षयः |
प्रकाशमाना दृश्यन्ते सूर्य वर्णाः तपस्विनः || ४-४०-६०
"There the great-sages with nomenclature of Vaikhanasa-s and Vaalakhilyaa-s will come into view with an ambience of luminosity, for those ascetics will be with the resplendence of the Sun. [4-40-60]

अयम् सुदर्शनो द्वीपः पुरो यस्य प्रकाशते |
तस्मिन् तेजः च चक्षुः च सर्व प्राणभृताम् अपि || ४-४०-६१
"In the presence of which resplendence the eyes of all living beings will become enlightened, and whereat that illuminating entity of universe, namely the Sun, will be sojourning, this is that Sudarshana Island, named so because it contains Sudarshana lake. [4-40-61]
(Sudarshana Lake? Is it possible that this Lake which is mentioned is Lake Titicaca which is situated in Andes Mountains?

Lake Titicaca is a lake in the Andes on the border of Peru and Bolivia. By volume of water, it is the largest lake in South America.[2][3] Lake Maracaibo has a larger surface area, but is often regarded as a large brackish bay due to its direct connection with the sea.

It is often called the highest navigable lake in the world, with a surface elevation of 3,812 m (12,507 ft).[4][5] Although this refers to navigation by large boats, it's generally considered to mean commercial craft. At least two dozen bodies of water around the world are at higher elevations, but all are much smaller and shallower.[6]
Wiki Link
)

शैलस्य तस्य पृष्ठेषु कंदरेषु वनेषु च |
रावणः सह वैदेह्या मार्गितव्यः ततः ततः || ४-४०-६२
"On the top of that Mt. Sunrise, and even in its cave and forests of that island Ravana is to be searched, together with Seetha. [4-40-62]

कांचनस्य च शैलस्य सूर्यस्य च महात्मनः |
आविष्टा तेजसा संध्या पूर्वा रक्ता प्रकाशते || ४-४०-६३
"The eastern aurora glows redly because the golden hue of Mt. Sunrise imbricates the resplendence of the beneficent Sun. [4-40-63]

पूर्वम् एतत् कृतम् द्वारम् पृथिव्या भुवनस्य च |
सूर्यस्य उदयनम् चैव पूर्वा हि एषा दिक् उच्यते || ४-४०-६४
"In the beginning Brahma, the Creator, ordained this Mt. Sunrise to be the gateway for the earth to heaven, and even as the rising place for the Sun, as such this is verily said as the 'eastern quarter' of the compass. [4-40-64]

तस्य शलस्य पृष्ठेषु निर्झरेषु गुहासु च |
रावणः सह वैदेह्या मार्गतव्या ततः ततः || ४-४०-६५
"Ransack that mountain's peak, even thereabout the rapids and caverns of that mountain for Vaidehi, and even for Ravana. [4-40-65]

ततः परम् अगम्या स्यात् दिक् पूर्वा त्रिदश आवृता |
रहिता चन्द्र सूर्याभ्याम् अदृश्या तिमिर आवृता || ४-४०-६६
"Beyond Mt. Sunrise the eastern quarter is impassable. It will be hemmed in with gods since it the gateway to heaven, and everything is imperceivable hedged in oblivion, since it will be void of both Sun and Moon. [4-40-66]

एतावत् वानरैः शक्यम् गन्तुम् वानर पुंगवाः |
अभास्करम् अमर्यादम् न जानीमः ततः परम् || ४-४०-६८
"It is possible for the vanara-s to go only up to there, oh, best vanara-s, and we have no knowledge of those sunless and boundless realms available far and beyond. [4-40-68]


Link

Sun is also worshiped in those parts, so that is another connection.

Is it possible to identify other markers mentioned by the Sugriva?

I tried to do it, but its a bit confusing.



Link to post

So, if Peru is the limit to eastern direction, then other areas can also be identified.

There seems to be lot of connection between Bhaarath and original American civilizations. Please see these posts:
Post 1: Vaidhik connections to American Civilizations
Post 2: Hawain Caste System
Post 3: Garuda and American civilizations
Post 4: American cows have Bhaarathiya origin

It seems to me that Sugriva describes Bharatha-varsha then Japan and North-America and then South-America in eastern direction.

So, Indo-China area was supposed to be part of Bharatha-varsha. So, it is not Indo-China but India only.

There is something intersting:
Yavana is generally considered to be Iones who are assumed to have later developed as greeks.

There is another possibility:
Yavana -> Javana -> Jabana -> Japana.
So, Yavanas could be Japanis.

Both Yavana and Javana seem to mean 'fast' in Sanskruth. 'Ya' becoming 'Ja' is a common corruption(Yehova -> Jehova). Similarly, 'Va' becomes 'Ba'(Vikram -> Bikram) and 'Ba' becoming 'Pa' is also common corruption(Potato -> Batata).

So,
Yavana -> Javana -> Jabana -> Japana.
So, 'Japan' could be corruption of Yavana or Javana.

Sugriva mentions Yava island comprising of 7 kingdoms in Eastern direction. It could be 7 kingdoms of Japan(so this was long time before Japan was unified). Sugriva also mentions Sindh river in east, it is the tributary river and not the other main Sindh river(which flows in west). This shows that sometimes, more than one place can have similar(or same) names and lead to confusion.

Cambodia seems to be a corruption of Kambhoja. There is a theory that after a flood in Kambhoja(Iran), some people were displaced and set up a new kingdom in Cambodia. Another set seem to have migrated to western direction. The tower of Babel story talks about a flood and western migration.

I don't think there was any migration towards east at any time. It is just wild imagination of the colonial people who were trying to justify their colonialism. The modern day westerners and their lackeys seem to reproduce the same colonial nonsense in newer forms with some minor tinkering.

The whole Aryan-Dravidian thingy is based on nonsense. 'Dravidian' is not mentioned in Vedhas. It is not mentioned in Vaalmiki Raamayana. It is only mentioned as one of the several kingdoms in south(in TN region) only in Mahabhaaratha. In the same Mahabhaaratha, Andhras, Cholas, Paandyas, Keralas, ...etc are also mentioned along with Dhravidas. So, how can all Thamilians be Dhravidians when Cholas and Paandyas are mentioned separately? So, how can all South-Bhaarathiyas be Dhravidians when Andhras and Keralas are mentioned separately? And 'Dhravidians' is not even mentioned in Vedhas or Vaalmiki Raamayana. In contrast, Cholas, Paandyas and Andhras are mentioned in Vaalmiki Raamayana. These are also mentioned in Mahabhaaratha.

So, why is this obscure 'Dhravidian' kingdom elevated to the stature of a distinct race by the colonials?

Of course, anyone who is rooted in traditional Hindhuism knows that 'Arya' means 'respected' and it has nothing to do with race.

The whole thing is based on nonsense. These colonials and their neo-versions have written realms and realms of nonsense distorting and misrepresenting. Conveniently, they quote each other in mutual back-scratching. All of these theories can be traced back to a few colonials like Jones and others written in 1800-1920. These bogus theories are still sought to be perpetuated in various forms by reproducing them. Infact, these people created even a stream: indology.

----
A list of Kingdoms of Ancient Bhaarath prepared by me:

Ancient Kingdom - modern geographical area - spoken language
Uttara Kuru - Samarkand + Tajikistan + Kyrgyztan
Kuru - Upper Doab + Uttaranchal + Haryana - Khadiboli & Kumaoni
Mathura - Middle & Lower Doab - Braj(Vraj) Basha
Kosala(Ayodhya) - Awadh
Kaashi - Purvanchal - Bhojpuri
Chedi - Bundelkhand - Bundeli
Pulindha - South-Madhya Pradhesh
Paanchala - Punjab - Punjabi
Magadha - Jharkhand + South Bihar
Mithila - Northern Bihar + Eastern Nepal - Maithili
Pundra - Chattisgarh
Kalinga - Odisha - Odiya
Vanga - Bangal - Bangali
Anga - Sikkim + Bhutan + Meghalaya
Pragjyothishpur (or Kamarupa) - Assam
Manipur - Manipur
Tripura - Tripura
Malla - Western Nepal
Andhra - Andhra Pradhesh(including Thelangana) + Karnataka - Thelugu
Chola + Pandya (+ Dhravida) - Thamilnadu
Vidharbha - Vidharbha (Maharashtra)
Mahishaka - Maharaashtra(without Vidharbha)
Avanthi (Ujjain) or Malwa - Western Madhya Pradhesh
Madhra - Northern Rajashtan
Salwa - Gujarath(without Saurashtra)
Matsya + Trigarta + Shibhi - Rajasthan
Kekaya - Pakhtunistan
Saurashtra - Saurashtra (Gujarath)
Sindhu - Sindhu(Pakisthan)
Bahlika - Bactria (Afghanistan)
Gandhara - Afghanistan (without Pakhtunistan + Bactria)
Kambhoja - Eastern Iran
Shaaka - Scythia(Central Asia)
Kerala - Kerala

Yavana could be Iones or Japan or both.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Anand K » 04 Jun 2014 11:55

Yavana = Japan?
:shock:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Rahul M » 04 Jun 2014 12:35

isn't yavana a twist of ionian and a catch all term for greeks in ancient India ?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Anand K » 04 Jun 2014 12:57

That Kala-Yavana guy had intrigued me since I was a kid. Perhaps the only really exotic foreign actor in the Itihasa-Puranas. A huge host from the west (cryptically "West of the Indus") IIRC marching right across other kingdoms towards Mathura to join Jarasandha's and Sisupala's forces. Some sources OTOH portray a Himalayan crossing :shock: - then how come he get's the Yavana moniker?

PS: There's that myth about Empress Semiramis attempting to invade India but before Darius there is no recorded large scale invasion of the subcontinent. Well of course, apart from the AIT stories.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Rahul M » 04 Jun 2014 13:16

it's probably a ref to one of the Indo-greek invasions (milinda/menander). the puranas were mostly written in that time period although some claim an earlier origin.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 04 Jun 2014 13:54

johneeG wrote:So,
Yavana -> Javana -> Jabana -> Japana.
So, 'Japan' could be corruption of Yavana or Javana.


johneeG garu,

Words like "Japan" are themselves Western transcriptions of the name of the land as used by foreigners, in this case Chinese. Please don't go by spelling. The Japanese use Nippon, meaning 'sun-origin'.

johneeG wrote:Some of the modern geographic names which may have Sanskruth or Bhaarathiya origins:
...
Arjuna (white) -> Argentina(South-American country)


Similarly names like Argentina were given to the region by European settlers. Name is first referred to in 1602 as per Wikipedia. Though Arjuna (Sanskrit) and Argentum (Latin) both mean silver.

johneeG wrote:Sugriva mentions Yava island comprising of 7 kingdoms in Eastern direction. It could be 7 kingdoms of Japan(so this was long time before Japan was unified). Sugriva also mentions Sindh river in east, it is the tributary river and not the other main Sindh river(which flows in west). This shows that sometimes, more than one place can have similar(or same) names and lead to confusion.


Yava island can simply be Java island of Indonesia. It has had a Hindu or, more precisely speaking, rather an 'Ārya' past.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Agnimitra » 04 Jun 2014 14:18

UlanBatori wrote:Hey experts, b4 u scoot, pls show me how to produce Devanagari characters here. Thx!!

(copying from Google Translator works when I do my chaste Ukrainian curses on that thread, but I don't know why).

baraha.com जालगतात् IME input keyboard अवतारयितुं शक्यते .

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Jun 2014 16:21

isn't yavana a twist of ionian and a catch all term for greeks in ancient India ?

Sounds like Ravana said by someone after a few... (JUST KIDDING!!)

Folks: there is a way to prevent the discussions from going the way of Erich von Daniken's (whom I don't diss, BTW..)

WHERE is this great carving on the Andes pls? Let's try to find it on Google/Google Earth.

I think the term "Bharata Varsha" literally means "where the rain that falls on the empire of Bharatha" which generally means the land boundaries plus watershed on mountain range bordering the land. That would end on the Indian Subcontinent.

The presence of places with names from ancient times, means nothing. Someone just named the local hill after something they had heard, or after a pet goat that got eaten on the hill.

Thus we find places with Ramayana names all over India. So this by itself constitutes no proof of any kind. The whole thing about everything coming from Meru is one of those things I say "Hmm! Let's not get caught up there yet". I have a problem with anyone claiming that the known boundaries of the human-occupied world extend across 6000 miles of ocean to a mountainside on a coastline - and no further inland!! So if that mountain carving is there and has lasted for 1,700,000,000 years, it is still there today. Let's find it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Yayavar » 04 Jun 2014 19:43

Agnimitra wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Hey experts, b4 u scoot, pls show me how to produce Devanagari characters here. Thx!!

(copying from Google Translator works when I do my chaste Ukrainian curses on that thread, but I don't know why).

baraha.com जालगतात् IME input keyboard अवतारयितुं शक्यते .



I changed the keyboard layout to Devnagari to type below(somehow the recent version of redhat has it as bolnagari - someone has modified a bit). With original Devnagari I would be able to get the other 'L' sound too.

मलयालम

btw, Malloo's are too self critical as well - not just for cute singing by Dey - I've heard complaints about how Yesudas used the variation of 'na' sound in maanaa ho tum kitney haseen or with with 'ra' in another....rather than the correct one. I hardly ever heard anyone else complain even though it sounded a little diff.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby kenop » 04 Jun 2014 22:22

UlanBatori wrote:WHERE is this great carving on the Andes pls? Let's try to find it on Google/Google Earth.

-13.794229,-76.308364 on the map

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 04 Jun 2014 22:25

JohneeG garu, thank you. Yes I agree with you. Tough to argue.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 04 Jun 2014 23:19

But, Johnee sir ji, All the time, Mata Sita was just next door in Lanka. Jatau have already mentioned Ravan , the King of Lanka as guilty party.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Agnimitra » 05 Jun 2014 00:24

viv wrote:I changed the keyboard layout to Devnagari to type below(somehow the recent version of redhat has it as bolnagari - someone has modified a bit). With original Devnagari I would be able to get the other 'L' sound too.

मलयालम

Windows Devanagari keyboard, as well as the Baraha-IME keyboard linked above has the letter you're looking for. - मलयाळम् (is that how it should be written?)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 Jun 2014 02:28

baraha seems to be an extraordinary package. Only $50 for all 3 editors and tools, unicode etc. but runs only on Windows. I think I will get it once my new m/c yet to be ordered m/c with ESXi is up and running.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Agnimitra » 05 Jun 2014 02:30

^^ Meantime there's a free download also. Starts acting up after a month, though.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Jun 2014 02:36

Now that's what I call amazing! thanks!
So they date it at least back to 200BCE, but that is based on pottery found in the nbd. Someone sure had a lot of time on their hands to do THAT!

The Candelabra is 595 feet long and can be seen from as far as 12 miles out to sea.


And the terrain:
Visitors to the Candelabra should view the site under the supervision of a responsible and accredited guide.


Imagine constructing that. I think there must have been something on top of the present ditch, back when it was built. That may have been destroyed over the ages. But no roads are evident..
The center is actually closer to -13.794218, -76.308686

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Jun 2014 02:37

Allo, Experts! Any suggestions for implementing LaTEX Devanagari kbd on Mark V Ulan Bator MacBook? I downloaded some stuff, but haven't got to actually seeing anything working.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 05 Jun 2014 03:34

viv wrote:UB - it could be still true that these were compiled along banks of Saraswati/Sindu if we consider it as continuous evolution from Indus-valley civilization(Harrappa/Mohenjodaro,Lothal etc). The knowledge seekers and providers could/would have come from all over the subcontinent.


So what knowledge is in the Rgveda ?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 05 Jun 2014 03:44

We have a GDF thread for IT/VTy questions. So please take them there.

thanks,
ramana

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Virendra » 05 Jun 2014 10:32

UlanBatori wrote:
If IE originated from India, why does it spread from north India to Ireland in west and not even beyond Vindhyas in the south?


But is this anywhere close to being true? I presume that "IE" refers to Indo-Oiropean meaning Sanskrit words and meanings (they don't use the Devanagari script in Ireland or Bavaria, so only words and meanings).

Look at Malloostani. All the prayers my Evil 6th Coujin was taught, are essentially Sanskrit though "in Malloostani". Very easy to relate to Sanskrit once E6C got over the sore ears that come from learning the grammar. So now we are to the southern tip of JD.
The similarities in south can be discarded by AMTwalas as a late intrusion (Magadha onwards in the timeline).
We need a thorough proof backed by solid mainstream research.

UlanBatori wrote:The findings are all of "seals" (What do u do with "seals" as a primary product I wonder..)

Won't call them primary products, but yes you use them as passports, specially when you're a trader. Atleast that is what archeologists are saying today.

Lastly about Jambudvipa/Jambudweepa .. there was a good video shared here on BR around a year back I guess. I'll send the youtube url soon.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Jun 2014 14:18

So what knowledge is in the Rgveda ?

A chance to give a 1-line reply to THAT question :mrgreen: Summary of lessons from Eternity b4?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 05 Jun 2014 15:20

UlanBatori wrote:
So what knowledge is in the Rgveda ?

A chance to give a 1-line reply to THAT question :mrgreen: Summary of lessons from Eternity b4?


Seems like this thread has got a new lease of life from yet another series of wet-dream posts.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2014 18:32

KLP Dubey wrote:
viv wrote:UB - it could be still true that these were compiled along banks of Saraswati/Sindu if we consider it as continuous evolution from Indus-valley civilization(Harrappa/Mohenjodaro,Lothal etc). The knowledge seekers and providers could/would have come from all over the subcontinent.


So what knowledge is in the Rgveda ?


The knowledge that Indra rescued 60,000 cows to release floodwaters. Don't believe me? Ask Griffiths.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 06 Jun 2014 02:19

shiv wrote:
KLP Dubey wrote:So what knowledge is in the Rgveda ?


The knowledge that Indra rescued 60,000 cows to release floodwaters. Don't believe me? Ask Griffiths.


Well, if you believe that "Vedic Sanskrit" existed as a language "before the Vedas were composed", and the "meanings" of the words are still the same as they are in today's Sanskrit, then you would have no option but to believe Griffiths, wouldn't you ? After all, he did a near-literal interpretation of the Rgveda using a Sanskrit dictionary.

I was asking a serious question. The Indian siddhanta does not consider Veda to be "a document containing distilled wisdom of knowledge from previous ages". On the other hand the sounds of the Veda have been considered the basic material, using which other "knowledge" developed. I'm aware of systematic knowledge like shiksha, vyakarana, nirukta, etc that were distilled out of the Veda.

According to AIT, AMT, and OIT the Veda is not a "repository of knowledge" but rather a mythological and historical account (Purana and Itihasa) of tribals/aboriginals inhabiting India in ancient times. The only difference in these theories is that according to AIT/AMT the tribals came on horseback from outside, whereas in OIT they are indigenous.

So now I am wondering what pre-existing "knowledge" is claimed to have been developed and deposited in the Veda by "knowledge providers" who supposedly came "from all over the subcontinent" and even from outside it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Jun 2014 02:25

I was asking a serious question. The Indian siddhanta does not consider Veda to be "a document containing distilled wisdom of knowledge from previous ages".


Oh! Very interesting. And hu is Indian Sid d'Hanta and where/when did he say this pls?

JOUC, have you tried reciting the Encyclopaedia Brittanica or Schlichting's Boundary Layer Theory or The Indian Constitution or even the KamaSutra to a goat and asked whether she heard it as anything other than "a series of sounds"?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 06 Jun 2014 02:33

UlanBatori wrote:
I was asking a serious question. The Indian siddhanta does not consider Veda to be "a document containing distilled wisdom of knowledge from previous ages".


Oh! Very interesting. And hu is Indian Sid d'Hanta and where/when did he say this pls?

JOUC, have you tried reciting the Encyclopaedia Brittanica or Schlichting's Boundary Layer Theory or The Indian Constitution or even the KamaSutra to a goat and asked whether she heard it as anything other than "a series of sounds"?


I have no idea what you are talking about.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Yayavar » 06 Jun 2014 03:53

Dubey-ji I also ask seriously ...if AIT says outside and OIT says indigenous, then what have you against indigenous == IV and people settled in other parts of the sub-continent.
Also ask seriously, if veda is sound that happens to be like Sanskrit words that Griffiths can translate then why cant that sound be made by pepull coming from Africa who settled all over continent and then some of them creating cities in Saraswati/Sindhu basin

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 06 Jun 2014 05:51

viv wrote:Dubey-ji I also ask seriously ...if AIT says outside and OIT says indigenous, then what have you against indigenous == IV and people settled in other parts of the sub-continent.


I have nothing against indigenous origins of Sanskritic culture. I believe that is very much correct, and I have said as much on this thread. But such an assertion/theory does not need (nor does it have) any support whatsoever from the Veda.

Also ask seriously, if veda is sound that happens to be like Sanskrit words that Griffiths can translate then why cant that sound be made by pepull coming from Africa who settled all over continent and then some of them creating cities in Saraswati/Sindhu basin


I do not know anything about these events, and neither do you. They may or may not have occurred, and are purely idle speculations of overactive imaginations.

What I do know 110% (and which has been conclusively shown by many before) is that there is no possibility of deducing history from Veda. The sounds of the Veda are eternal, impersonal, and have no pre-determined relation to any historical or geographical features. Whatever such connections appear to exist are all later assignments by people who decided to assign them as names of people, objects, etc. That's all there is to it.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2014 05:52

The idea that the Rig Veda is not a document that constitutes some kind of story or chronicle and, in fact may be an ancient record of primordial "sounds" has some basis. I came across this "obstacle" when I decided to write a book on the age of the Rig Veda. I wrote about 140 pages and then encountered the issue that the Rig Veda has no information to date itself - despite Griffiths, Witzel and other Indian stalwarts opposed to Witzel such as Talageri.

A bigger issue here is to try and explain what the Rig Veda is - and I will simply point people to two texts and provide a brief introduction. You will have to read them yourself to get some idea.

1.Aurobindo - The Secret of the Veda, Downloadable from:
http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashra ... .php?id=30

Aurobindo makes a fascinating argument that puts a purely spiritual meaning to the Rig Veda and starts off with a linguistics explanation that refers to how language might have originated to take the argument from there to the reason why some words have changed their meaning beyond recognition. Aurobindo also criticizes Sayana for attributing mainly ritual meanings to the Rig Veda and being inconsistent in his interpretetion. Aurobindo points out that Griffiths and others have taken from Sayana.

2. The Garland of letters (John Woodroffe)
http://hinduonline.co/DigitalLibrary/Sm ... ersEng.pdf

This book is virtually unreadable and you will require some fortitude to keep reading - or at least skipping parts that you cannot understand. The meaning gradually appears. I think the author wrote this wok as some sort of response to other works by other clued in people. But he makes the point that there exist what are known as "natural names" for everything that can be "heard" ("sensed" may be a better word) by the "absolute ear" of the absolute oneness that constitutes the universe. Other beings who achieve or realize this absolute state can "hear" sense these "natural names". Humans cannot normally sense this.

I am still trying to read this book. If Woodroffe makes the point that the Rig Veda is a collection of primordial sounds indicating natural names - I have not reached that part yet - but since the book is downloadable, please try reading it yourself
Last edited by shiv on 06 Jun 2014 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Yayavar » 06 Jun 2014 06:00

Dubey-ji there was no history in the comment. All it said was the veda could have been composed by people over the continent. That it was complied implies some thinking process behind it and that implies some content (knowledge). You can limit it to primordial sounds or sounds that somehow happen to be comprehended as sanskrit :). In which case the Sanskrit creators did a great job - implies thinking and content yet again.

That humans from Africa came to India, spread over and then spread beyond has Mitochondrial basis.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2014 06:09

viv wrote: You can limit it to primordial sounds or sounds that somehow happen to be comprehended as sanskrit :). .

Pending further personal enlightenment, I can only say this. There is the concept of a system of primordial sounds - which
a. are "audible" to the "absolute ear"
b. are inaudible to/unsensed by the ordinary human

Humans who achieve spiritual union with the absolute are capable of hearing (sensing) the "natural sounds" that constitute the entire universe.

Although no one has said it explicitly, the Rig Veda is an exposition of these natural sounds as can be sensed by humans - hence the extraordinarily rigorous emphasis of maintaining their auditory integrity in transmission. Who handed them down and when they were handed down is unknown. The exact meanings of those sounds is unknown. Human meanings may have been derived out of those sounds at a later time.

This is as far as my current belief (belief, not understanding) goes.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2014 07:55

I was flummoxed by Dubeyji's assertion about Rg Veda being compilation of divine sounds. The same is ennunciated by Pravachanam gurus.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 06 Jun 2014 08:17

ramana wrote:I was flummoxed by Dubeyji's assertion about Rg Veda being compilation of divine sounds. The same is ennunciated by Pravachanam gurus.


A correction: I did not assert that the Rgveda sounds are "divine". The sounds are eternal, and are not the product of any agency whether human or divine.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2014 08:31

The theory is that if you take existence and apparent reality as having come into being out of oneness/nothingness, then everything that exists in that apparent reality can be described by a name - called a "natural name". I can see and feel a tree and I can give it a name. In fact someone has already coined the name "tree". But even things that we cannot see, feel or sense "identify" themselves - i.e. they exist and have a "name". For example the sap flowing in a tree also exists and has a "natural name" that can be sensed - but not be an ordinary human. So also for rocks or for that matter, fire. That is the "natural name" - which can only be "heard" by a being who has an "absolute ear".

As regards Rig Veda - here are a few cut and pastes from Gokul unkal search
http://www.tony5m17h.net/RgVeda.html
The precise sequence of sounds is highly significant; it is in the sequential progression of sound and silence thatthe true meaning and content of the Ved reside - not on the level of intellectual meanings ascribed to the Ved in the various translations


http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Advanced_Concepts.htm
According to Raja Ram Mohan Roy, author of Vedic Physics, "The knowledge contained in the Vedas is very abstruse, and is well beyond the comprehension of ordinary human beings.


From wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_chant
Portions of the Vedantic literature elucidate the use of sound as a spiritual tool. They assert that the entire cosmic creation began with sound: "By His utterance came the universe." (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1.2.4).


http://www.vedanet.com/2012/06/vedic-li ... rgy-yogas/
The Vedic rishis all honored Shakti, which is primarily Vak Shakti or the ‘power of the Divine Word’. Their mantras are the manifestations of Shakti and carry the power of all creation and the secrets of cosmogenesis. The Rigveda itself is a creation of Kundalini Shakti, which is the power of Vak or Divine Speech, as it manifested at the beginning of this particular world age, but not merely in individuals but in great families of seers or Rishis. The Rigveda itself is perhaps the greatest mantric effusion of Kundalini Shakti at a collective level.

The Shakti of the Vedic hymns is the strongest of all stotras or Sanskrit hymns, reflecting the very rhythms of cosmic creation and the thousand syllables of the crown chakra. Yet bija mantras like Hrim and Shrim are more defined in Tantra and the Tantric bijas are the strongest of all bijas, the primal sounds behind the universe. The Vedas reflect the metrical power of Sanskrit, whereas Tantra reflects the power of Sanskrit seed sounds.


I think we need to be very cautious before arguing with Talageri against Witzel or vice versa. What actually went "out of India" may be very different from what everyone is imagining.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2014 15:42

The reason why opposing arguments about the content and alleged stories of the Rig Veda posed by the likes of Witzel and Talageri must be looked at with suspicion is as follows. These scholars base their arguments on the one main "translation" of the Rig Veda by Griffiths. Anyone who reads Griffiths and is of a sane mind will realize that the translation of the Rig Veda does not look like a profound set of poems that serve as the basis of Indian philosophy and civilization, but like poems by a bunch of idiots who were stringing words together to create a mockery of the word poetry. What you read in "translations" of the Rig Veda is insufferable bullshit on the lines of what I said earlier - "Indra rescued 60,000 cattle and released the waters" or "may this stake protect your ancestors in thier grave" or "216 pieces of gold and 10,000 cattle". Meaningless claptrap. No Indian and certainly no one else who learns of the antiquity of the Rig Veda will deliberately want to laugh at this patently ludicrous content. They will imagine that in those ancient days humans were still getting out of Neanderthalism - so these idiot-poems had great meaning back then, although they sound like poems written by cretins to us "modern, advanced thinking humans"

So why don't we come out of our denial and admit that the Rig Veda is a big joke - a long boring collection of meaningless rubbish? The reason we don't do that is that a whole lot of commentaries and expositions exist based on the knowledge of the Vedas and these commentaries and explanations embody the best of Indian, and in fact any, philosophy of life and the universe. Clearly the information carried by the Vedas is not some story of cows, invaders on horses and horse burying kurgans. It appears that the original meanings of the Rig Veda if any have long since been forgotten and what remain are the sounds and the later commentaries.

Ultimately it is likely that the Rig Veda is a collection of eternal sounds chanted in a particular order dating back to very remote times - and it is possible that some of those sounds were attributed some meanings at a later date - some of which became Sanskrit as we know it. With Sanskrit being a so called "indo-European" language - this opens the possibility that IE languages themselves have all been handed down from remote times as an offshoot of primal sounds which were later given meanings that humans could relate. No proof. Just conjecture. But for that we have to dismiss all of Talageri and all of Witzel and head towards a completely different area of knowledge.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Yagnasri » 06 Jun 2014 17:47

The tradition says Veeda Vyasa has divided the vedas into 4. Further there is also one tradition of only 3 Vedas - Amara Kosem says that. Hence the text possibility was organised in the remote times.

As for as sound related perfection insisted upon concerned the same may or may not be repeating of the divine sounds.

Vedas are learned from the mouth of the Guru. Hence, the insistence to maintain sound purity may be to ensure the actual and correct knowledge learned is being done by listening and repeating perfectly.

That being said it is also quit possible that Vedas has such divine sounds/words from nature itself inbuilt in them to give the learned people chanting and those who are hearing are great benefit.

So both ideas may be true. May be it is like learning medical texts or economic theory through Saint Thyagaraya song in Karnatak Music. Your knowledge improved, your soul is purified and BP reduced.

My mango knowledge.
Last edited by Yagnasri on 06 Jun 2014 17:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 06 Jun 2014 17:53

I'm completely fascinated by this subject and had requested KLPD to give us some insight into his thinking on this earlier...

>>The sounds are eternal, and are not the product of any agency whether human or divine.

So are you suggesting that the sounds would exist whether or not humans exist, and that humans have taken these sounds and joined them into syllables and words to give "meaning" to things?

>>But even things that we cannot see, feel or sense "identify" themselves - i.e. they exist and have a "name". For example the sap flowing in a tree also exists and has a "natural name" that can be sensed - but not be an ordinary human. So also for rocks or for that matter, fire. That is the "natural name" - which can only be "heard" by a being who has an "absolute ear".

Doc I don't understand what you mean above. Would it be possible to explain it differently?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Jun 2014 18:25

So as I hear it (same as a yak hearing Lata Mangeshkar or "reading" printed Kalidasa verse):

1. The ACTUAL content of the Rg Veda (who has the original I wonder...) is a bunch of sounds, passed down orally through the ages with the order:
This is Sruti: what I heard. Pass it down EXACTLY for it shall give you Eternal Salvation. Don't ask why, how etc, just keep repeating it

2. Experts who have Anal-iced such sounds using Digital Signal Processing (aka Cavity Search), PiskoAcoustics, Aryan SS Powers, Austrian Linguistics, Freudian Mind Dump etc. have pronounced:
This is a bunch of primitive guttural mutterings of cave dwellers b4 they invented sophisticated languages such as German
(Achtung Bitte! also guttural mutterings to my goat ears).
3. I cannot , and neither can any of the Experts, really decipher what the Rg Veda said, nor meant.

Therefore, the Rg Veda is all useless.
4. Ditto (I am illiterate) therefore any re-butt-al that I provide is meaningless. It is inferior to the conclusions reached by Other Experts (who are also illiterate: c 3 above).
5. Therefore I must accept what the Illiterate Experts say.
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To my yak level of intelligence, the explanations in the UpaNishads is as close as one CAN get to understanding the Vedas.

So as a yak-brain, I prefer to eat that, rather than the BS put out by Herr Achtung Witlez or whoever else, or the opportunists who organized Vedic Conferences days before the predicted Monsoon, to chant those Guttural Mutterings as Rain Dances, and who have no HOPE of ever understanding the context and the history and the tradition as the old prof does.

IOW, those "mutterings" of assorted sounds were the ancients' way of passing down the knowledge and wisdom gathered through the ages before them. But over time, what was understood of the Knowledge Base also came to be conveyed in more refined languages.

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Which is my 1-line answer.
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It has nothing to do with Sanskrit (Samskrtam), which is simply a "refined language" that came much later to communicate precisely. Like FORTRAN90 is to a set of hexadecimal flashing lights or sounds. In the old days one had to be very economical with the coding because the entire machine memory of a big cabinet-filling computer was 128 bytes. But the Ancients also passed on the Upanishads as the Instruction Manual and the Abridged for Kindergartners version and that is what people use to understand the gist of the "sounds".
Last edited by UlanBatori on 06 Jun 2014 19:52, edited 2 times in total.

JE Menon
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Posts: 7038
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 06 Jun 2014 18:32

>>As cynical as the guy who invented the parachute to go with airplanes right after seeing the Design Approval PPT presentation proving how in-fall-ible the airplane was.

For fuxakes Batori, I nearly pi$$ed with laughter there... give warning macha!

Ok, having said that and gone back to read the rest of the post... very interesting indeed.


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