Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2014 10:15

Jhujar wrote:4,000 Year Old Vishnu Statue Discovered in Vietnam

http://www.indiadivine.org/news/history ... etnam-r766

Interesting Pictures. Unfortunately cant seem to copy and paste the article.Please click the flik.


A recent news report from Vietnam features an exquisite and very ancient sculpture of Lord Vishnu. According to a press release from the Communist Party of Vietnam’s Central Committee (CPVCC) the Vishnu sculpture is described as “Vishnu stone head from Oc Eo culture, dated back 4,000-3,500 years.” Recently the Government of Vietnam, despite its official Communist doctrine, has developed many programs and projects highlighting Vietnam’s ancient religious heritage. Its scholarly and archeological research and investigations are legitimate and its conclusions are authoritative. This discovery of a 4,000 to 3,500 year old Vishnu sculpture is truly historic and it sheds new light upon our understanding of the history of not only Hinduism but of the entire world.

The fact is there are no other ‘officially’ recognized Vedic artifacts that have been dated back to such an early date. This would make Vietnam home to the world’s most ancient Vedic artifact. While there are indeed many other ancient artifacts that represent the same Deity, they are not presented in the ‘Indic’ tradition and cannot be directly recognized as the Vishnu of the Indic Vaishnava tradition.The 4000-3500 year old Vietnamese Vishnu sculpture is part of an exhibit featuring some of Vietnam’s most ancient artifacts. It was discovered in the region of Southern Vietnam's Mekong Delta. The Mekong (Ma Ganga) River is named after the Ganges River of India. The entire region was once the home to several ancient and prosperous Vedic Kingdoms and many intriguing and unique Vedic artifacts have been discovered. The Vishnu sculpture was officially presented during the 5th Quang Nam Heritage Festival which opened on June 21, 2013 in Hoi An City. The exhibition highlights many ancient objects dated from the Dong Son – Sa Huynh – Oc Eo eras of Vietnam’s ancient history.“Entitled “Dong Son – Sa Huynh – Oc Eo cultures”, the exhibition put on display over 1,000 ancient objects which come from across the country and are made from diverse materials, from pottery to copper, including jewelry and farming tools, from the pre-ancient period belonging to the three cultures.

The significance of this discovery cannot be overestimated. The entire history of Hinduism and Vedic culture, as taught is the academic institutions of the world, has been built upon a false construct. According to mainstream academia Vedic ‘religion’ or Hinduism did not exist until the alleged ‘Aryans’ invaded India circa 1500 BC. An even later date is given to Vaishnavism which is speculated to have been derived from animist Sun worship. Yet here we have a highly evolved art form depicting Lord Vishnu in the Far South East region of Asia dated to somewhere between 2000 BC to 1500 BC.This completely undermines the entire historic timeline developed by mainstream academia in regards to the development of both Vedic/Hindu civilization and Indian history.The region of modern India has always been the epicenter of High Vedic/Hindu Civilization and culture. No one anywhere has ever suggested the region of modern Vietnam to be the origin of Hindu civilization yet it is in Vietnam that we now have the world’s most ancient example of Indic style Vedic Vaishnava art. Thus it stands to reason that if Vedic Vaishnava art, culture and religion flourished 4000 years ago in prehistoric Vietnam it was undoubtedly flourishing in ancient India as well.

Once again science and archeology have confirmed the Vedic conclusion. As the Vedic literature states 5000 years ago India was home to a highly evolved and advanced civilization. This civilization was centered on its sacred traditions. The worship of the Supreme Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva, Lakshmi and Durga was widespread and in fact spanned the entire globe.These traditions presented themselves in diverse manners, as seen in modern India, yet among this diversity was a commonality based upon the authority of the Vedic scriptures and traditions. The recognizably Indic forms of the Vedic traditions spanned the globe from the Philippines to the Middle East and Siberia to Australia. Yet the same Divinities were worshiped and the same traditions were practiced throughout the world.

The many recent Vedic discoveries from Vietnam are providing a new and sensational view into the authentic history of the world. Not only this, it presents a challenge to Modern India and its leadership. India is home to many startling and amazing artifacts yet they sit ignored and crumbling. In many cases looters and vandals have destroyed many priceless examples of India’s ancient heritage. India’s leading academics and governing bodies are silent and if they do speak of India’s ancient Hindu heritage it is only to cast doubts and disparage India’s indigenous Vedic culture and Hindu traditions.

Astounding and marvelous ruins and artifacts that would be the pride of any other nation and people are, in general, ignored and forgotten and left to crumble into oblivion. Often they are threatened by the efforts of the various Governmental bodies in the name of progress such as the National Highways Authority of India’s (NHAI) recent attempts to destroy a 1000 year old Shiva temple in Tamil Nadu.

It is a great irony that the officially atheistic Communist Government of Vietnam exhibits more pride in its ancient Hindu heritage than the ‘Secular’ Democratic Government of India. The entire South Asian and SE Asian region was once home to many thriving Hindu Kingdoms and civilizations. The Encyclopedia Britannica writes regarding the Indian influence upon these regions “In the realm of politics, Indian influence accompanied the rise of new political entities, which, since they do not readily fall under the Western rubric of “states,” have been called mandalas. The mandala was not so much a territorial unit as a fluid field of power that emanated, in concentric circles, from a central court and depended for its continued authority largely on the court’s ability to balance alliances and to influence the flow of trade and human resources.”Perhaps today, as India itself is reeling under the onslaught of enforced ‘secularism’ and as Hinduism has been relegated to the realm of just one of many religions, (rather than being recognized as the heart and soul of India,) we are fortunate that the former Hindu lands of Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Myanmar, Laos and Kampuchea are leading the way towards the reclamation of our ancient Vedic heritage.


Formatting corrected
Last edited by shiv on 06 Jul 2014 13:07, edited 1 time in total.

Prem
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 06 Jul 2014 10:34

Thanks Doc,
Nilesh Oak Saab might find this interesting for his Ramayan project.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Jul 2014 18:18

Off-topic, yes, but just to point out that the fact that "Western Universalism" is an unfamiliar concept shows just how little Hindus understand the West.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Virendra » 06 Jul 2014 18:37

shiv wrote:
Jhujar wrote:4,000 Year Old Vishnu Statue Discovered in Vietnam

http://www.indiadivine.org/news/history ... etnam-r766
Interesting Pictures. Unfortunately cant seem to copy and paste the article.Please click the flik.


Formatting corrected

Original news is a year old.
http://www.vietnambreakingnews.com/2013 ... displayed/
One of the objects (a drum) is dated at 2000 YBP and the Vishnu statue's dating is not mentioned in this article.

Will try to dig further ...

Added Later :
Seems the objects displayed belong to three different cultures : Dong Son, Sa Huynh and Oc Eo. The Vishnu statue is placed in the Oc Eo culture artifacts.

Got another news article, directly from 'Communist Party of Vietnam Online NewsPaper'.
This one clearly states Vishnu statue to be 3.5 - 4k years old (1500-2000 BCE)
http://dangcongsan.vn/cpv/Modules/News_ ... O_ID=30438
This one too - http://www.talkvietnam.com/2013/06/anci ... displayed/

Archeologists have recovered Sanskirt inscriptions from Oc Eo sites in Vietnam.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/oterms/g/oceo.htm
Inscriptions in Sanskrit found at Oc Eo refer to King Jayavarman who fought a great battle against an unnamed rival king and founded many sanctuaries dedicated to Vishnu.


The Oc Eo civilisation contributes 10 sets of ancient objects to the list of the 77 national treasures. Insight by the Government Portal. Among the 10 objects, 3 are Vishnu statues.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Virendra » 06 Jul 2014 19:01

Also ran into another pair of interesting discoveries from Turkey:
1. A human head with a Shikha like Vedic priests used to keep, is found in Nevali Cori, Turkey.
2. This Nevali Cori settlement of Pre-ceramic Neolithic period is dated in between 8000 BC to 10000 BC (using four radio-carbon dates).
Seeds discovered there are indicating early farming (domesticated wheat) at 7200 BCE.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/turkeynevali.htm

Excerpts

The Statues and Carvings
The local limestone was carved into numerous statues and smaller sculptures, including a more than life-sized bare human head with a snake or sikha-like tuft. Some of the pillars also bore relief's, including ones of human hands. The free-standing anthropomorphic figures of limestone excavated at Nevali Cori belong to the earliest known life-size sculptures. Comparable material has been found at Göbekli Tepe (Currently considered to be the oldest temple in the world at c. 9,500 BC).

Several hundred small clay figurines (about 5 cm high), most of them depicting humans, have been interpreted as votive offerings. They were fired at temperatures between 500-600°C, which suggests the development of ceramic firing technology before the advent of pottery proper.

This particular sculpture (right) is claimed to be the head of an Indian Vedic priest by B. G. Sidhartha, who whilst researching the early (similar) date of the Rig Veda, came across it in the archaeological literature. He said of it:
"Even a not-too-well informed Indian can make this out to be the sculpture of a Vedic priest, because such a hairstyle is a dying, but still alive tradition in India today". (3)
Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Pulikeshi » 06 Jul 2014 19:27

shiv wrote:If one particular definition of "universal" is pushed by means of rhetoric, propagandu and coercion, it still does not mean that it really is universal

Like I said - the topic is a digression.


So spake the now extinct Persians, Greeks, Romans, etc. but like you said ur opinion is urs :mrgreen:

The infamous Wendy once quipped "What will the engineers & doctors do if we social science folks don't show them the way..." (Something to that effect...) we continue to be told what to do onlee...

A_Gupta wrote:Off-topic, yes, but just to point out that the fact that "Western Universalism" is an unfamiliar concept shows just how little Hindus understand the West.


₹₹₹₹ in the bank!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby rohitvats » 06 Jul 2014 22:53

Well, there is not much I can add to this discussion but here is a link to video where a 'firang' theoretical physicists talks about Sanskrit and Vedas. And while he also talks about 'Proto-Indo-European' origin of Sanskrit initially, please do listen to the whole video. Especially, in light of recent posts about Greek philosophy and the likely 'influence' on them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Brv2FaOluU

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 07 Jul 2014 07:22

Which thread is the right one to discuss Western Universalism on?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2014 07:28

A_Gupta wrote:Which thread is the right one to discuss Western Universalism on?

Why not start one? I will do the honors if you like and start with my own take on the topic :mrgreen:

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 07 Jul 2014 08:16

Someone declared one of these Great Truths:

Indian civilization MUST have started in the Indus Valley

I am sure he meant that it didn't come into India from the monkeys swinging through the Black Forest, but I have to point to another equally logical assumption based on the same theory:
American Life started in Nebraska.
The evidence is right there: Perfectly preserved imprints of animals. Clear dating of age. Undeniable proof. Since this is the earliest that has been found in America, it PROVES that life in America started at this site. Q.E.D.

Not way down south which was much more warm and hospitable year-round, where life has existed continuously, and hence there is no visible clear trace of life from 100 million years ago.

IMO, the Indus Valley findings show that civilization existed MUCH EARLIER than the Indus Valley outpost! You don't make a sophisticated trading outpost in the middle of an arid place (OK, river may have been there, but the region beyond was still arid and inhospitable) unless you have a flourishing society that has trade links with faraway parts, including the other side of the world.

So, b4 going out to fight the windmills of AIT/OIT, I request that ppl get this one fact straight: The Indus Valley was merely the edge of Indian civilization.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2014 08:45

UlanBatori wrote:
So, b4 going out to fight the windmills of AIT/OIT, I request that ppl get this one fact straight: The Indus Valley was merely the edge of Indian civilization.

+1

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 08 Jul 2014 02:47

shiv wrote:Clearly the "Vedas" as known to us have not been "found" anywhere else in the world so they cannot be said to have gone out of India. So leaving the Vedas out of an OIT thread seems reasonable. Some things have gone out of India and an exploration of that is about as far as I have been trying to go.


Agree with almost all the points in the post.

However, in my opinion it is OK to have the "Veda" in the OIT thread as long as it is simply treated as the basic source of a number of words which are found in the Sanskrit language and also found in corrupted forms in other languages. The Vedangas which analyze the grammar of the Vedic words and speculate on their etymology, are also permissible. None of the above constitutes any kind of "historical" interpretation.

The "historical" investigation then becomes a question of tracing how the sum total of Vedic words + Vedanga analysis + Sanskrit derivatives showed up in other places in various corrupted forms. Again this does not require, nor does it permit, any kind of effort to find "history" within the Veda itself. Such history does not exist outside the mental fantasies and delusions of some people.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 08 Jul 2014 14:53

Has there been any attempt to reorder the sounds of the Veda?
I'm assuming that since they are sounds only and have no inherent meaning, order is not relevant?
Or is it relevant because they have resonance which in turn generates behaviors among things alive and not?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RamaY » 08 Jul 2014 18:03

JE Menon wrote:Has there been any attempt to reorder the sounds of the Veda?
I'm assuming that since they are sounds only and have no inherent meaning, order is not relevant?
Or is it relevant because they have resonance which in turn generates behaviors among things alive and not?


A response here: viewtopic.php?p=1684746#p1684746

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 08 Jul 2014 22:34


shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 09 Jul 2014 06:52

JE Menon wrote:Has there been any attempt to reorder the sounds of the Veda?
I'm assuming that since they are sounds only and have no inherent meaning, order is not relevant?
Or is it relevant because they have resonance which in turn generates behaviors among things alive and not?

JEM As far as I know there has been no such attempt.

Having said that - since the Vedas have been about for a fairly long time people may well have tried to do things with them, but the Vedas, being transmitted orally, were dependent on a robust system to transmit them accurately and in the exact order that they are recalled- so the Vedas have survived as is and any attempt to "re order" the sounds have not cropped up or survived (That is a far as my knowledge goes) - i.e there is only one vesrion of the Vedas. Re ordered Vedas is not Vedas any more and has not survived if it was attempted at all.

That said I don't think it is true to say that they have "no meaning". The Vedas, along with the discipline and rituals associated with them, used appropriately are said to have an effect that does not depend on the specific meanings ascribed to the sounds. This is not such an outrageous concept to swallow. Great pieces of music are regularly sung in different languages - so the specific meanings of the sounds is less relevant than the relationship of the sounds to each other.

It is always an interesting proposition to try and figure out what came first, sound or meaning. Intuitively one can say that sounds existed long before anyone ascribed meanings to them. Sonu Nigam, a singer (and a patriot who said all the right things after 26/11) normally sings in Hindi. he is regularly required to sing for Kannada movies. I don't think he understands a single word, but the songs are as beautiful in the "Kannada" sung by Sonu Nigam as they can be. The meanings are less important than the sounds.

Long ago I was puzzled by my baby daughter singing the sounds "kurima-ribya". I later figured out that she was merely reciting a Kannada nursery rhyme that my late mother used to sing to her. The words were "kuri mari bya" - which means "lamb, come to me". The words were incomprehensible to my daughter and she got all the syllables alright but was unable to string them into appropriate words. The line had 5 syllables (ku, ri, ma, ri, bya) which are sung with almost no gap between the syllables. If you know Kannada you will string up the syllables 2-2-1 to make 3 comprehensible words. My daughter, too young to speak coherently simply linked up the syllables 3-2 to get a nonsense rhyme.

We may not know the sublime/hidden meaning of the Vedas and would probably only lose meaning if we changed the order.

Just a ramble

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 09 Jul 2014 14:59

>>That said I don't think it is true to say that they have "no meaning". The Vedas, along with the discipline and rituals associated with them, used appropriately are said to have an effect that does not depend on the specific meanings ascribed to the sounds. This is not such an outrageous concept to swallow. Great pieces of music are regularly sung in different languages - so the specific meanings of the sounds is less relevant than the relationship of the sounds to each other.

Just a disclaimer in case it's not already obvious, I'm a complete novice in this inquiry. And I do agree that it cannot be that they have "no meaning"... perhaps KLP Dubey and others if any are saying there is "no literal meaning"?

Doc, the idea that the ordering of sounds as is have a reason behind it is wholly feasible, which is why I thought they may have a resonance in the order that is laid out on things that are alive and not; music or song is a good example as you said, and one supposes the time-sensitive ragas (morning raga and so on) perhaps draw from that as well. But then, if that is so, a re-ordering must have some other kind of resonance to the reciter and to the listener - i.e. a different "meaning". What I'm getting at is that since these are just sounds ordered in a particular way to arrive at a particular sensation, or meaning to individuals, they must be able to also produce different sensations if they are ordered differently - just like music perhaps? It cannot be that every other possible re-ordering of these sounds are utterly meaningless and just plain noise. If it is, why so... and how is it that this was only intuited by those south of the Himalayas, and no one else in the world - at least that I know of - hasn't even a scrap of sound combinations that are similar?

What is interesting though is the rigidity of the ordering and the adherence to it in the Vedas. Is a rationale given somewhere for this particular sound order? It is a general question being asked out of ignorance.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby A_Gupta » 09 Jul 2014 16:47

UlanBatori wrote:Someone declared one of these Great Truths:

So, b4 going out to fight the windmills of AIT/OIT, I request that ppl get this one fact straight: The Indus Valley was merely the edge of Indian civilization.


I think the theory is that like the Mesopotamia and Egypt around the Nile, the Indus-Saraswati with its perennial rivers without a lot of jungle to clear (pre-Iron-age) was hospitable for agricultural civilizations. The Gangetic plains were heavily forested and thus more difficult to settle. Not saying the theory is justified.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 09 Jul 2014 20:46

JE Menon wrote:Has there been any attempt to reorder the sounds of the Veda?
I'm assuming that since they are sounds only and have no inherent meaning, order is not relevant?
Or is it relevant because they have resonance which in turn generates behaviors among things alive and not?


I don't know where the idea arose that the sounds "have no meaning". The Vedic sounds certainly have meaning. However, the list of meanings given in the Nirukta, and the similar "mundane" word-meanings in the Sanskrit language, do not represent the "true" meaning of the Veda.

The order of the sounds is indeed relevant. It depends on what level of ordering you are referring to. Within the Rk, the order is unchangeable and fixed. It is a different matter that the advanced techniques for oral reproduction of Rcah follow a number of methods like word-repetition, interchange, etc to aid memorization. Also another matter that some schools of Yajna have decided to deliberately obfuscate/corrupt the sounds during actual Yajna performances. However, the correct effect of a Rk is only obtained by oral reproduction in the unchangeable order that it was received in. This is fully clarified and warned by the Indian grammarians such as Patanjali in the Mahabhashya.

However, the Rcah themselves can be (and have been) ordered in different ways. People like Subhash Kak claim that the presently accepted ordering of the Rks follows some sort of numerical pattern that has an astronomical significance. I don't remember the details now.

In terms of 'text', Samaveda is little more than a re-ordering of Rcah. Yajurveda is also Rgvedic Rcah in different order than the Rgveda, combined with some other sounds which are not in the Rgveda.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 09 Jul 2014 22:54

Thanks KLPD. That was useful and clear.

Regarding this bit: "However, the list of meanings given in the Nirukta, and the similar "mundane" word-meanings in the Sanskrit language, do not represent the "true" meaning of the Veda".

How is this known, i.e. that it is not the "true" meaning? Who/what knows the true meaning, and who/what certifies that it is true?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 09 Jul 2014 23:41

JE Menon wrote:How is this known, i.e. that it is not the "true" meaning? Who/what knows the true meaning, and who/what certifies that it is true?


This is discussed in Mimamsa. Basically, the Veda is eternal, impersonal, and universal, and therefore cannot be referring to "earthly" objects and names of people, places, etc.

Regarding the true meaning, it is NOT known at present. Such a goal must be pursued. There can be no "certification" of having "reached the truth" (if it is even possible), but certainly one can make better and better approximations/hypotheses that must stand tests of reason and consistency, and that are subject to being "disproved" by contradictory observations.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 09 Jul 2014 23:53

Thanks, very clear.

Essentially, it is that we don't know what the Vedas truly mean. This if I understand correctly is the Mimamsa position.

It seems to me to be a very honest posture to have, given what we know and don't know.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SriKumar » 10 Jul 2014 09:16

KLP Dubey wrote: In terms of 'text', Samaveda is little more than a re-ordering of Rcah.
Any comment on why an essentially identical text as a prior veda (Rig) is now given the status of a separate veda (i.e. Sama)? Is there is a specific purpose/aim (speculation is fine) for changing the music on the text (going from Rig to Sama)? Any comment on whether the mode of saying the sama veda (i.e the notes) have been preserved?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 10 Jul 2014 15:02

JE Menon wrote:Thanks KLPD. That was useful and clear.

Regarding this bit: "However, the list of meanings given in the Nirukta, and the similar "mundane" word-meanings in the Sanskrit language, do not represent the "true" meaning of the Veda".

How is this known, i.e. that it is not the "true" meaning? Who/what knows the true meaning, and who/what certifies that it is true?

Sven, you of all people would benefit from reading the first chapter of Aurobindo's "The Secret of the Vedas"

i will simply post two pages of that chapter here

IS THERE at all or is there still a secret of the Veda?

According to current conceptions the heart of that ancient mystery has been plucked out and revealed to the gazeof all, or rather no real secret ever existed. The hymns of the Veda are the sacrificial compositions of a primitive and still barbarous race written around a system of ceremonial and propitiatory rites, addressed to personified Powers of Nature and replete with a confused mass of half-formed myth and crude as-tronomical allegories yet in the making. Only in the later hymns do we perceive the first appearance of deeper psychological and moral ideas — borrowed, some think, from the hostile Dravidi-ans, the “robbers” and “Veda-haters” freely cursed in the hymns themselves, — and, however acquired, the first seed of the later Vedantic speculations. This modern theory is in accord with the received idea of a rapid human evolution from the quite recent savage; it is supported by an imposing apparatus of critical re-search and upheld by a number of Sciences, unhappily still young and still largely conjectural in their methods and shifting in their results, — Comparative Philology, Comparative Mythology and the Science of Comparative Religion.

It is my object in these chapters to suggest a new view of the ancient problem. I do not propose to use a negative and destructive method directed against the received solutions, but simply to present, positively and constructively, a larger and, in some sort, a complementary hypothesis built upon broader foundations, — a hypothesis which, in addition, may shed light on one or two important problems in the history of ancient thought and cult left very insufficiently solved by the ordinary theories.

We have in the Rig Veda, — the true and only Veda in the estimation of European scholars, — a body of sacrificial hymns couched in a very ancient language which presents a number of almost insoluble difficulties. It is full of ancient forms and words which do not appear in later speech and have often to be fixed in some doubtful sense by intelligent conjecture; a mass even of the words that it has in common with classical Sanskrit seem to bear or at least to admit another significance than in the later literary tongue; and a multitude of its voca-bles, especially the most common, those which are most vital to the sense, are capable of a surprising number of unconnected significances which may give, according to our preference in selection, quite different complexions to whole passages, whole hymns and even to the whole thought of the Veda.

In the course of several thousands of years there have been at least three con-siderable attempts, entirely differing from each other in their methods and results, to fix the sense of these ancient litanies. One of these is prehistoric in time and exists only by fragments in the Brahmanas and Upanishads; but we possess in its entirety the traditional interpretation of the Indian scholar Sayana and we have in our own day the interpretation constructed after an immense labour of comparison and conjecture by modern European scholarship. Both of them present one characteristic in common, the extraordinary incoherence and poverty of sense which their results stamp upon the ancient hymns. The separate lines can be given, whether naturally or by force of conjecture,a good sense or a sense that hangs together; the diction that results, if garish in style, if loaded with otiose and decorative epithets, if developing extraordinarily little of meaning in an amazing mass of gaudy figure and verbiage, can be made to run into intelligible sentences; but when we come to read the hymns as a whole we seem to be in the presence of men who, unlike the early writers of other races, were incapable of coherent and natural expression or of connected thought. Except in the briefer and simpler hymns, the language tends to be either obscure or artificial; the thoughts are either unconnected or have to be forced and beaten by the interpreter into a whole. The scholar in dealing with his text is obliged to substitute for interpretation a process almost of fabrication. We feel that he is not so much revealing the sense as hammering and forging rebellious material into some sort of shape and consistency.

Yet these obscure and barbarous compositions have had the most splendid good fortune in all literary history. They have been the reputed source not only of some of the world’s richest and profoundest religions, but of some of its subtlest metaphysical philosophies. In the fixed tradition of thousands of years they have been revered as the origin and standard of all that can be held as authoritative and true in Brahmana and Upanishad, in Tantra and Purana, in the doctrines of great philosophical schools and in the teachings of famous saints and sages. The name borne by them was Veda, the knowledge, — the received name for the highest spiritual truth of which the human mind is capable. But if we accept the current interpretations, whether Sayana’s or the modern theory, the whole of this sublime and sacred reputation is a colossal fiction. The hymns are, on the contrary, nothing more than the naive superstitious fancies of untaught and materialistic barbarians concerned only with the most external gains and enjoyments and ignorant of all but the most elementary moral notions or religious aspirations. Nor do occasional passages, quite out of harmony with their gen-eral spirit, destroy this total impression. The true foundation or starting-point of the later religions and philosophies is the Upanishads, which have then to be conceived as a revolt of philo-sophical and speculative minds against the ritualistic materialism of the Vedas.

But this conception, supported by misleading European parallels, really explains nothing. Such profound and ultimate thoughts, such systems of subtle and elaborate psychology as are found in the substance of the Upanishads, do not spring out of a previous void. ..

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 10 Jul 2014 17:00

Is it possible that the Egyptian pyramids are the Buddhist Sthupas?

Buddhists from Bhaarath spread to Gaandhara. From there, they spread to Middle-east. And somehow penetrate the Egypt and settle there. Perhaps, they intermarry with the Egyptians. And become the rulers of Egypt.

wiki wrote:The earliest known Egyptian pyramids are found at Saqqara, northwest of Memphis. The earliest among these is the Pyramid of Djoser (constructed 2630 BCE–2611 BCE) which was built during the third dynasty. This pyramid and its surrounding complex were designed by the architect Imhotep, and are generally considered to be the world's oldest monumental structures constructed of dressed masonry.[6] The estimate of the number of workers to build the pyramids range from a few thousand, twenty thousand, and up to 100,000.[7][8][not in citation given]

The most famous Egyptian pyramids are those found at Giza, on the outskirts of Cairo. Several of the Giza pyramids are counted among the largest structures ever built.[9] The Pyramid of Khufu at Giza is the largest Egyptian pyramid. It is the only one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World still in existence.


If Pyramids are the Buddhist Sthupas, then Buddhism itself maybe much more older. And of course, that means Hindhuism much much much more older.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RamaY » 10 Jul 2014 18:28

^ Sri Kota Venktachalam dates Buddha to be around 1800BC.
If our Nilesh Oak's MB date is the basis to calculate Buddha then he should be around 4000BC.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 10 Jul 2014 20:28

Thanks doc, will go through the book...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 10 Jul 2014 20:31

SriKumar wrote:
KLP Dubey wrote: In terms of 'text', Samaveda is little more than a re-ordering of Rcah.
Any comment on why an essentially identical text as a prior veda (Rig) is now given the status of a separate veda (i.e. Sama)? Is there is a specific purpose/aim (speculation is fine) for changing the music on the text (going from Rig to Sama)? Any comment on whether the mode of saying the sama veda (i.e the notes) have been preserved?


The reordering of the Rcah seen in Yajus and Saman is mainly due to the early Yajna developers. For reasons that are not entirely clear, it was decided that a different arrangement of Rcah was required for Yajna. Thus the Rcah were re-ordered in the Yajus and Saman to suit the purpose.

In both cases, the articulation is also altered. The Adhvaryu is the Yajna official charged with articulating the Yajus. While the "original" Yajurveda is accented, the Kalpa (one of the Vedangas) specialists began to dictate that the Adhvaryu should drop the accent. At present the Adhvaryu usually reproduces the Yajurveda in accentless form. This practice is strongly derided by the Vyakarana and Shiksha specialists.

Similarly, in the Saman there is the introduction of musical notes for articulation. It is not clear whether this was originally a tool to aid memorization, or whether it was another development of the Kalpa specialists. The official designated for this purpose is the Udgatr, who "sings" the Saman in the Yajna. Over the centuries, the "singing" has been corrupted in various ways so that the original Rgvedic words become almost incomprehensible.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 10 Jul 2014 20:35

JE Menon wrote:Thanks doc, will go through the book...

The book is a heavy read - just see chap 1 first and then worry about the rest - heavy stuff.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby JE Menon » 10 Jul 2014 20:55

Yup, started already... have to admit from a glance at random pages, looks like some daunting stuff. Will give it a shot, nevertheless.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby SriKumar » 11 Jul 2014 03:59

KLP Dubey wrote:Similarly, in the Saman there is the introduction of musical notes for articulation. It is not clear whether this was originally a tool to aid memorization, or whether it was another development of the Kalpa specialists. The official designated for this purpose is the Udgatr, who "sings" the Saman in the Yajna. Over the centuries, the "singing" has been corrupted in various ways so that the original Rgvedic words become almost incomprehensible.
thanks for the comments.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lilo » 12 Jul 2014 16:03

Image
A recent news report from Vietnam features an exquisite and very ancient sculpture of Lord Vishnu. According to a press release from the Communist Party of Vietnam’s Central Committee (CPVCC) the Vishnu sculpture is described as “Vishnu stone head from Oc Eo culture, dated back 4,000-3,500 years.” Recently the Government of Vietnam, despite its official Communist doctrine, has developed many programs and projects highlighting Vietnam’s ancient religious heritage. Its scholarly and archeological research and investigations are legitimate and its conclusions are authoritative. This discovery of a 4,000 to 3,500 year old Vishnu sculpture is truly historic and it sheds new light upon our understanding of the history of not only Hinduism but of the entire world. Copper form of Vishnu from Oc Eo cultureThe fact is there are no other ‘officially’ recognized Vedic artifacts that have been dated back to such an early date. This would make Vietnam home to the world’s most ancient Vedic artifact. While there are indeed many other ancient artifacts that represent the same Deity, they are not presented in the ‘Indic’ tradition and cannot be directly recognized as the Vishnu of the Indic Vaishnava tradition.The 4000-3500 year old Vietnamese Vishnu sculpture is part of an exhibit featuring some of Vietnam’s most ancient artifacts. It was discovered in the region of Southern Vietnam's Mekong Delta. The Mekong (Ma Ganga) River is named after the Ganges River of India. The entire region was once the home to several ancient and prosperous Vedic Kingdoms and many intriguing and unique Vedic artifacts have been discovered. Vishnu stone head from Oc Eo culture, dated back 4,000-3,500 years.The Vishnu sculpture was officially presented during the 5th Quang Nam Heritage Festival which opened on June 21, 2013 in Hoi An City. The exhibition highlights many ancient objects dated from the Dong Son – Sa Huynh – Oc Eo eras of Vietnam’s ancient history.“Entitled “Dong Son – Sa Huynh – Oc Eo cultures”, the exhibition put on display over 1,000 ancient objects which come from across the country and are made from diverse materials, from pottery to copper, including jewelry and farming tools, from the pre-ancient period belonging to the three cultures.The significance of this discovery cannot be overestimated. The entire history of Hinduism and Vedic culture, as taught is the academic institutions of the world, has been built upon a false construct. According to mainstream academia Vedic ‘religion’ or Hinduism did not exist until the alleged ‘Aryans’ invaded India circa 1500 BC. An even later date is given to Vaishnavism which is speculated to have been derived from animist Sun worship. Yet here we have a highly evolved art form depicting Lord Vishnu in the Far South East region of Asia dated to somewhere between 2000 BC to 1500 BC.This completely undermines the entire historic timeline developed by mainstream academia in regards to the development of both Vedic/Hindu civilization and Indian history.The region of modern India has always been the epicenter of High Vedic/Hindu Civilization and culture. No one anywhere has ever suggested the region of modern Vietnam to be the origin of Hindu civilization yet it is in Vietnam that we now have the world’s most ancient example of Indic style Vedic Vaishnava art. Thus it stands to reason that if Vedic Vaishnava art, culture and religion flourished 4000 years ago in prehistoric Vietnam it was undoubtedly flourishing in ancient India as well.Once again science and archeology have confirmed the Vedic conclusion. As the Vedic literature states 5000 years ago India was home to a highly evolved and advanced civilization. This civilization was centered on its sacred traditions. The worship of the Supreme Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva, Lakshmi and Durga was widespread and in fact spanned the entire globe.These traditions presented themselves in diverse manners, as seen in modern India, yet among this diversity was a commonality based upon the authority of the Vedic scriptures and traditions. The recognizably Indic forms of the Vedic traditions spanned the globe from the Philippines to the Middle East and Siberia to Australia. Yet the same Divinities were worshiped and the same traditions were practiced throughout the world.The many recent Vedic discoveries from Vietnam are providing a new and sensational view into the authentic history of the world. Not only this, it presents a challenge to Modern India and its leadership. India is home to many startling and amazing artifacts yet they sit ignored and crumbling. In many cases looters and vandals have destroyed many priceless examples of India’s ancient heritage. India’s leading academics and governing bodies are silent and if they do speak of India’s ancient Hindu heritage it is only to cast doubts and disparage India’s indigenous Vedic culture and Hindu traditions.Astounding and marvelous ruins and artifacts that would be the pride of any other nation and people are, in general, ignored and forgotten and left to crumble into oblivion. Often they are threatened by the efforts of the various Governmental bodies in the name of progress such as the National Highways Authority of India’s (NHAI) recent attempts to destroy a 1000 year old Shiva temple in Tamil Nadu.It is a great irony that the officially atheistic Communist Government of Vietnam exhibits more pride in its ancient Hindu heritage than the ‘Secular’ Democratic Government of India. The entire South Asian and SE Asian region was once home to many thriving Hindu Kingdoms and civilizations. The Encyclopedia Britannica writes regarding the Indian influence upon these regions “In the realm of politics, Indian influence accompanied the rise of new political entities, which, since they do not readily fall under the Western rubric of “states,” have been called mandalas. The mandala was not so much a territorial unit as a fluid field of power that emanated, in concentric circles, from a central court and depended for its continued authority largely on the court’s ability to balance alliances and to influence the flow of trade and human resources.”Perhaps today, as India itself is reeling under the onslaught of enforced ‘secularism’ and as Hinduism has been relegated to the realm of just one of many religions, (rather than being recognized as the heart and soul of India,) we are fortunate that the former Hindu lands of Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, Myanmar, Laos and Kampuchea are leading the way towards the reclamation of our ancient Vedic heritage. Deputy Minister of Culture, Sports and Tourism Huynh Vinh Ai andrepresentatives from Quang Nam provincial People’s Committee andrelated agencies cut the ribbon to open the exhibition.Dong Son copper drum, dated back some 2,000 years.Copper utensils from Dong Son culture, dated back some 2,500-2,000 years.Copper and iron ploughshare from Dong Son culture, dated back some 2,000 years.Copper axes from Dong Son culture, dated back some 2,700-2,500 years.Pottery from Sa Huynh pottery, dated back some 2,300 years.A collection of jewelry from Sa Huynh culture, dated back some 2,300 years.Pottery vase from Oc Eo culture

http://www.indiadivine.org/news/history ... etnam-r766

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Arjun » 12 Jul 2014 20:09

Image

HUGE news if true... Upturns the entire world of the Western linguistics cabal.

But it needs to be validated.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Rudradev » 12 Jul 2014 23:54

UB, Tibet was once an inland ocean (the Tethys Sea, paleogeologists call it) which would make the Himalayas and their foothills its very-long-ago shoreline. Fossilized Shankhs must have been a rare and (with no obvious natural cause) seemingly miraculous find in ancient times. Not surprising they were exalted as ritual artifacts.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2014 16:55

The idea of Tibet being an ocean is something to ponder, but of course before The Collision, Tibet must have been on the other side and hence there must have been a long period when it was ocean, whether completely inland or not. Is it now surrounded by high mountains and did the water drain out through a few rivers? :eek: But either way, what was sea-bottom once, would have shells in plenty. And you are right: finding those among "tushara-sanghAta shilAtaleshu api" (per Kalidasa) would have induced congnitive dissonance, esp. for people who knew what the ocean was.

One of the things that have always puzzled me is, how many mountain people had seen the ocean, and vice versa, back 4000 years ago? How long did the trek take from one to the other? All these tales of Adi Sankara being born in Malloostan, doing a PhD on the banks of the Narmada, going on a lecture tour to the Himalayas, Dwaraka, Dhaka, Skardu, Kanyakumari and Puri, converting zillions of would-be Pakis to Advaita, then returning to where he is buried in Malloostan, all by the age of 32, take some strong faith. Surely he did not have to stand in line for tickets on Indian Railways??

But the above story about finding 4000-year-old, beautifully-carved idols is worth checking out. I tried but failed: the closest I found was this:
http://www.visit-mekong.com/vietnam/ho- ... temple.htm

But no mention to be found of any findings or official museums or shows. One of the main problems with "yindoo" claims on the Internet is the profusion of these stories proclaiming miracles, with no reference that can be pursued to the original. Then a whole procession of Yahavendranathas copy the same url and proclaim it (just a general observation).

We need to confirm or reject the above report of a "finding". Of course, finding an idol somewhere does not mean that it was originally made or even established there soon after it was made, it may have been taken there by smugglers the day before it was "found".

But IF there are other such finds that show evidence of an actual Hindu civilization in Vietnam in ancient times, then that is very strong evidence that the ancient SD-based civilization was centered far east of the "Harappan sites" or the Indus Valley. Then, yes, the whole antics of the Bavarian apes leaping through the Khyber Pass becomes even more :rotfl: So it is important.

Now back to the "4000-year-old" idol pictured: The carving is beautiful. The facial features are captured very nicely, and indicate someone not at all like Early Humans as pictured in Oirope, North America, Africa, South America or Australia but much more like recent desis. Also, the idol is pictured with tall headgear. Made of what? shiny metal? wool? leather? bark? Leaves? Whatever it is, says a lot about the technology. Both aspects, prima facie, tend to support the cynical assertion that there are few extra zeroes in the age. Many "ancient" verses written in praise of the Glory of the Avataras speak of shiny golden crowns. Where was the gold found?

What is the "SD-Seal-Of-Approval" version about the Iron Pillar of Dilli, now considered to have been brought there from the Khandagiri rock temples of Bhuvaneshwar? This was the proof that sophisticated metal processing existed at least as far back as those, in Eastern India.

Also, does anyone have info on the original optical system that was inside the main hall of the Konark Sun Temple (now closed to visitors)? What was it? (It was some neat engineering contraption on a large scale!) There must have been a chronograph (based on what is seen outside), maybe a seasonal thing, must have been mirrors (made of what?), but was there also a prism, and if so, made of what?
Last edited by UlanBatori on 13 Jul 2014 17:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Arjun » 13 Jul 2014 17:11

UlanBatori wrote:But no mention to be found of any findings or official museums or shows.

UB, check this out: http://www.cpv.org.vn/cpv/Modules/News_ ... O_ID=30438

Its a year-old official Vietnamese communique on an exhibition which also mentions the Vishnu statue exhibit and provides the dating.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prasad » 13 Jul 2014 17:34

Batoriji,
The MB mentions arjun traveling from indraprastha to source of ganga to kalinga to vang, manupura, then south then back to manipura (chitrangada was a babe back then too :)) and then too dwaravati and then to indraprastha all within twelve years of exile. Adi shankara could've done all that.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2014 22:34

Yes, thanks. Also see this "archaeology" site where the "scientists" are quoted. Of course they place much more recent dates, I guess they have to get their papers published in Bilayat and Hahvahd among the "Aryans".
http://archaeology.about.com/od/oterms/g/oceo.htm

The papers cited there are also interesting: they have been using dating of sediment that shows evidence of digging and cultivation - that is their claim of how far back there was rice cultivation on the Mekong. That has the same problem as archaeological digs: they can answer the question of "what is the earliest that you have FOUND", not "what is the earliest that existed?"

It seems that now, what they thought was a burial ground, shows evidence of a Vishnu temple below that, which means MUCH older. Going back to my version of OIT, these are regions where ppl could live year-round without freezing, so they must have had many successive layers of civilization, each built over the past one.

Bishop P, Sanderson DCW, and Stark MT. 2004. OSL and radiocarbon dating of a pre-Angkorian canal in the Mekong delta, southern Cambodia. Journal of Archaeological Science 31(3):319-336.

For instance, see

Abstract

This study presents preliminary results of research on pre-Angkorian canals near the ancient settlement of Angkor Borei in the southern Mekong delta of southern Cambodia. The canals have been mapped by aerial photograph interpretation and investigated in the field by hand auger drilling of two canal traces and trenching of one of these. Luminescence profiling through the canal infill successfully identified the base of the canal as well as revealing disturbance and mixing of the canal infill that was not apparent from visual inspection or sedimentological analyses of the infill sediments. OSL dating of the canal bed indicates excavation (or re-excavation) of the canal bed between the first millennium BC and the middle of the first millennium AD. This date is consistent with the time of initial occupation of Angkor Borei in the fourth century BC. Multiple charcoal samples with a pooled age of early fourth to early fifth century AD probably signal the onset of canal infilling. The apparent demise of the canal coincides with a major change in land-use signalled in pollen and diatom data from Angkor Borei, but this change cannot be taken to indicate de-population of the region. This tentative chronology will be refined when more canals are investigated and greater precision is achieved in OSL dating of the canals. The latter will necessitate clearer identification and separation of unbleached (older, pre-archaeological) components and bleached (younger and dating the canal digging and/or operation) components in the OSL stored dose.


So now we are up to "pre-Angkor-ian". Which they put as 1st millinnium BCE, IOW 3000 yrs ago.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Virendra » 14 Jul 2014 19:58

Agniveer on History in Vedas :-
http://agniveer.com/history-vedas/
Excerpt :
This attempt of imagining history in vedas in a grave mistake we make which robs our dharma of its true identity and makes it vulnerable to attacks of anti-culturals.

If Vedas contain history, then all other texts, including new Purans at once become fraud texts without any further analysis. The list includes:
a. New Purans (Shiv, Vishnu, Bhagvat, etc etc)
b. Upanishads
c. Brahmans
d. Darshans (Yoga, Nyaya, Meemansa, Vedaant etc)
e. Ramayan
f. Mahabharat
g. Smritis: Manu etc
and all other texts of ancient times which we associate with our culture or knowledge.
Because each of them procliams clearly that Vedas/ Shruti are first knowedge to mankind, given at
beginning of creation and hence self-sufficient proofs. This is one common theme that unites all the various factions of so-called Hinduism.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem Kumar » 15 Jul 2014 01:33

Arjun wrote:UB, check this out: http://www.cpv.org.vn/cpv/Modules/News_ ... O_ID=30438

Its a year-old official Vietnamese communique on an exhibition which also mentions the Vishnu statue exhibit and provides the dating.


Annoyingly, Googleshwara returns very few results when you search for the 4000 year old idol of Vishnu. All results go back to 1 or 2 sites. The new chief of ICHR could well do to put in a request with Vietnam to help date the idol. Even if its not as old as predicted, we would learn something important from it - like dating of Vaishnavism in Vietnam


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