LCA News and Discussions

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Cain Marko
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cain Marko »

shiv wrote:The problem is that so called critical analysis of aerodynamics is utter nonsense unless you actually have some engineering knowledge of how to make a heavier than air object fly and return safely. Every man and his uncle who bullshits confidently on here comes up with the sort of statement you have made.

Dazzle me with equations and I will shut up on this issue.
Here is the simplest of equations: We provide you with a fighter w. uber tech in 10 years = fighter does not see the light of day till much later. Timelines being repeatedly delayed has nothing to do with technical knowledge - considering that those in the know are full of it (scientific knowhow), it should be even more apparent to them that said timelines are ridiculous.

NOBODY is criticizing engg. or technological ability of DRDO etc... but questioning it's ability to not keep timelines it seems is rather painful.

Anyways, the viewpoint being discussed here was that of TKS, and I for one, feel that the man makes some decent points.
shiv
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Cain Marko wrote:
Here is the simplest of equations: We provide you with a fighter w. uber tech in 10 years = fighter does not see the light of day till much later. Timelines being repeatedly delayed has nothing to do with technical knowledge - considering that those in the know are full of it (scientific knowhow), it should be even more apparent to them that said timelines are ridiculous.

NOBODY is criticizing engg. or technological ability of DRDO etc... but questioning it's ability to not keep timelines it seems is rather painful.

Anyways, the viewpoint being discussed here was that of TKS, and I for one, feel that the man makes some decent points.
If you ask my opinion, even to this day the "average percentage" of Indians who have deep technical knowledge of either aviation of aviation related engineering is miniscule and reflects the technical incapability of the country itself. Visit any technical forum on the internet frequented by Americans or Europeans and you find a huge number of people who have hands on experience in design and manufacture. And this reflects that fact that Europe and the US had built and flown and discarded hundreds of thousands of aircraft before either you or I were born.

It is easy to sit back as say that Indian engineering is not up to scratch. But Indian engineering has not had the time and opportunity to come up along with the industrial revolution a century from 1850. However Indians become great critics after age 16.

Maybe 50 years from now, if there is an internet - a forum such as this one will be full of people who are aware of the design pitfalls of various ideas. Right now on BRF we have about 3 or 4 people who have any inside knowledge and most of them are told on most thread that since they worked for HAL/DRDO there represent the incompetent bums and we know more.

Some of the more controversial doubts on this forum have no answers anywhere on the internet except in technical forums where people who have worked in Lockheed or McDonnell Douglas and others who have flown for decades state their experiences in remarkably technical posts about issues such as stalling, stealth, takeoff and landing distances, radar signatures etc. BRF is nowhere near that level - and that is not BRFs fault. We have a paucity of people who hace done such work. We are able to recognise that our technical capability is not what we want but we seem to be unable to understand why that is so. The continuous criticism and the lament that one is not allowed to criticise is not useful to anyone IMO. Sounds more like whining without insight to me.
Cain Marko
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cain Marko »

shiv wrote:It is easy to sit back as say that Indian engineering is not up to scratch. But Indian engineering has not had the time and opportunity to come up along with the industrial revolution a century from 1850. However Indians become great critics after age 16.
I hope that was not directed at me - I don't think I was critical of Indian engg. ability anywhere. Nor do I think was TKS. Like most forumers, I am downright proud of what has been achieved.
BRF is nowhere near that level - and that is not BRFs fault. We have a paucity of people who hace done such work. We are able to recognise that our technical capability is not what we want but we seem to be unable to understand why that is so.

Yes, but then why not ask questions but about WHY there are certain issues. Heck, even if there are vague hypothetical stances so be it, point out the flaws with such positions and let us hope we have the grace to understand/admit our mistakes. How else can anyone learn?
The continuous criticism and the lament that one is not allowed to criticise is not useful to anyone IMO. Sounds more like whining without insight to me.
That was not my intent, but I do confess to a deep curiosity, and as a concerned citizen believe, that one at least has the right to question certain visible tendencies. Such as the proclivity to give goals and timelines that cannot be stuck to even remotely. I am sure you would also agree by the same token that it is not useful to criticize the IAF either or lay the blame squarely on their door.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Surya »

I'd have taken a Bison with upgraded engines starting in the late 90s numbering around 150 today, over the current shortage. The Armed Forces have to think in these terms and maintain readiness - promises of delivering caviar in 6 months are of no use for a starved person, who needs daal-roti today.
But obviously they have not?? Or at least in this case the IAF??
So if the IAF was tracking properly it should have kept the Bis line open - so that upgraded Bisons were produced till LCA was ready

Unless they thought they could rush and get a quick order for some foreign ac?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SidSom »

Cain Marko wrote: Here is the simplest of equations: We provide you with a fighter w. uber tech in 10 years = fighter does not see the light of day till much later. Timelines being repeatedly delayed has nothing to do with technical knowledge - considering that those in the know are full of it (scientific knowhow), it should be even more apparent to them that said timelines are ridiculous.
The Above equation seems to be talking about F-35. Not wanting to drag this into comparisons with LCA, just want to highlight that aircraft making is serious business and even the best of the engineering world backed by the years of experience in making generations of planes struggle at it even today. And I believe that there is no replacement to experience. To get every crucial decision right, one needs experience, else something will get messed up somewhere. It not just a question of engineering capability alone, it is also the experience of project management in the aircraft building industry that is lacking.

It will be some time before this forum will get the necessary expertise (if this had been a forum on software engineering, most of the comments would have held more weight). There are far too few members like Raghuk and hnair in here who provide us with indepth knowledge. E.g. hnair's clarification on the optical sensor being on the upper side of LCH nose, saved pages and pages of armchair engineering, that some of us 'experts' would have indulged in. I do hope this forum attracts more such talent.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cain Marko »

Surya wrote:
I'd have taken a Bison with upgraded engines starting in the late 90s numbering around 150 today, over the current shortage. The Armed Forces have to think in these terms and maintain readiness - promises of delivering caviar in 6 months are of no use for a starved person, who needs daal-roti today.
But obviously they have not?? Or at least in this case the IAF??
So if the IAF was tracking properly it should have kept the Bis line open - so that upgraded Bisons were produced till LCA was ready

Unless they thought they could rush and get a quick order for some foreign ac?
Well Surya, I cannot say why they did not keep the 21 lines open. Perhaps they were optimistic and hopeful of an indigenous product that might have catered to their needs? Irrespective of this, it seems rather harsh to suggest that they were so enamored with phoren maal that they absolutely dissed homegrown stuff, and in fact even conspired to derail such efforts - that is bordering treason. There are too many instances that suggest the contrary and attest to their faith in DRDO products.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by negi »

^ CM I differ with you on the last point; here on the forum be it the MIL, STRAT or even the ECO dhaga we always whine as to why India always punches below her weight in the world arena and why is that we do not aim for big (at least I do that a lot), in this particular case the ADA and DRDO combine set themselves a target which even today we deem as impossible to achieve given the funding and red tape rituals prevalent in our system so criticizing them for dreaming big imho is not done. As for over promising well it is not like DRDO and ADA have stopped IAF from importing AC to maintain it's sanctioned squadron strength so I do not read too much into it, just like I do not read much into the allegation that IAF did not lend support to Tejas .
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

When people on this forum say (as an example) "Why not just replace engine X with engine Y - and that would give results A, B and C, and this is so simple" - the person who suggests that does not have a clue as to what he is talking about.

Even attaching a new pylon on a wing has consequences that can lead to an accident and death and it requires testing that lasts several weeks or months and the new design may prove unusable without more modifications leading to more months of testing. This seems to be unknown to 99% of Indians. If you have an aviation industry where tens of thousands of people have done such tests for millions of man hours and that data is already recorded and available as ready reference material in your company archives, then you can make changes more quickly with less testing. You can also produce new aircraft designs more quickly. There is a fantastic article by Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar about the sort of test flying he was required to do by a BAe engineer at HAL for a simple new pylon on a Jag. I need to try and find and link it or scan it for people on here.

It is not for nothing that I linked earlier in this thread a seemingly boring video about missile development in India on Luptonga's channel where the speaker (in a heavy and difficult to understand South Indian accented English) says how every minor change in design leads to great changes in other parameters like weight, response to stresses and flight characteristics, all of which can lead to catastrophic failure of the design unless tested thoroughly. Like I said - if we already had the data because of research done in the 1930s and 1940, we could have built new designs in the 1960s and 1970s on which we could base today's designs. We in India do not even have the 1930s and 1940s design and aerodynamic experience. And no this is not freely available knowledge. Which company will say what turbine blade designs work and do not work based on their own data from the 1940s? This is why intellectual property is such a big deal for western aerospace companies although it means nothing to Bollywood.
Last edited by shiv on 12 May 2012 08:45, edited 1 time in total.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Is there a comparison chart available between IOCs of

Tejas - Gripen - Ef2k

like this has been mentioned that Gripen was accepted for IOC after having cleared much less parameters than Tejas.

In MMRCA it was continuously pointed out how Ef2k isn't going to be ready for air to ground strike role till 2018, still these a/cs were given clearance by their AFs for IOC, and are going to add these capabilities in next batches.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Here is a post I had made in Oct 2011 - I cross post it for my own reference because the date will help me locate the exact article by AM Rajkumar
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1181085
The latest issue of Vayu has another great article from AM Philip Rajkumar about his days testing missiles and bombs - but he deliberately restricts himself to a period more than 30 years ago.

Did you know that in 1973-74 the Armament Testing Lab had replaced the very limited Infra red seeker of the K-13 (Atoll) missile with a radar seeker of equivalent size and weight. The modified missile was then able to follow radar signals from the parent aircraft and hit targets hidden by cloud/fog. The IAF was not interested.

On the other hand the IAF wanted a dumb bomb with fins to retard it so that it could be dropped from 100 feet and still allow the plane to escape the bomb blast. Simple fins were designed to be held by canvas straps that could withstand airspeed up to 450 knots. But quality control was poor and they could never design straps that could withstand speeds up to 1000 kmph which is what the IAF wanted. But later parachute retarded bombs were successfully designed. Before testing them the cameras designed to film the bomb drop became unserviceable. A search for a replacement revealed brand new cameras that were unused and had come with the B-24 Liberators and were not even known to be on the IAF inventory. Those cameras are still with ASTE apparently.

In another innovative act they fitted an R-60 on the overwing pylons of a Jaguar and test fired it successfully. The entire testing was done in 90 days at a cost of Rs 25,000! The problem after that was to design an overwing pylon for the Jag to carry the R-60. The pylons ended up being too high and AM Rajkumar tested the Jag with the new pylons and found that the flight characteristics of the Jag were unacceptable with the R-60 pylons.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Negi,the IAF was kept out deliberately by the DRDO crowd according to my AM friend,who was repeatedly chosen to head the project with "hire and fire" capabilities.This was because he was a no-nonsense man who would nail the tall talk and absence of delivery emanating from the various PSU entities working on the project.Eventually,the babus allegedly even sat for a year on his appointment from the PM itself until he retired! They then managed to curtail the head's post without the "hire and fire" powers.

Regarding keeping the MIG-21 production line open,Shiv will remember my post around 8+ years ago,which he welcomed,the answer to the Q:"What is the best replacement for the MIG-21?" Answer:The MIG-21! Had we kept the line open for a few more sqds ,as the IAF then did not have much confidence in the arrival of the LCA,we could've had about 180-200 Bisons available for a fraction of the cost of what we are now going to shell out.This would've kept the IAF's numbers happy at least.

The problem with some multi-role aircraft,and their capability reduces when they become smaller,is that they become "jack of all trades" and master of none".If I may draw a comparison,at the extreme end of the table,the JSF is the US's equivalent to the LCA.It has combat capability of just F-16 standard,is still in its development stage and is going to cost an absolute bomb,that will in event,actually do more damage to the US's economy than the enemy! The PRC can simply mass produce thousands of their relatively inexpensive 3+ to 4th-gen fighters ,which will outnumber any threat from the USAF or USN.US Wargaming studies have already exposed the limit of the F-22 when faced with superior numbers of PRC Flankers.

While the LCA appears not to be exorbitantly expensive,its acute and prolonged gestation with the Mk-1 version underpowered and unable to fully meet its designed operational parameters,has put the IAF's entire modernisation plans into jeopardy,resulting in a shortage of both low-cost fighters to replace the hundreds of MIG-21s and fill the gaps in the strike capability due to small numbers of M-2000s and yet again underpowered Jaguars which are themselves looking (two decades late) for a new engine to maximise their potential ! Since we have now plumped for the Rafale to meet our multi-role requirements and are upgrading our Jags,MIG-29s,M-2000s and MIG-27s as well to meet close-support and strike capabilities,it would be sensible for the IAF to at least concentrate on getting the LCA to first perform as a straightforward light-weight interceptor/fighter,with its limited range/endurance in view too,before a MK-2 is developed which some say requires much more than just inserting a new engine,with a lot of fuselage modifications,etc.,leading to even more time for it to fructify. If the LCA with its underpowered engine cannot meet the air combat parameters intended,at least let it be equipped with the best AAMs available that will more than compensate for its shortcomings!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_20292 »

shiv wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
Here is the simplest of equations: We provide you with a fighter w. uber tech in 10 years = fighter does not see the light of day till much later. Timelines being repeatedly delayed has nothing to do with technical knowledge - considering that those in the know are full of it (scientific knowhow), it should be even more apparent to them that said timelines are ridiculous.

NOBODY is criticizing engg. or technological ability of DRDO etc... but questioning it's ability to not keep timelines it seems is rather painful.

Anyways, the viewpoint being discussed here was that of TKS, and I for one, feel that the man makes some decent points.
If you ask my opinion, even to this day the "average percentage" of Indians who have deep technical knowledge of either aviation of aviation related engineering is miniscule and reflects the technical incapability of the country itself. Visit any technical forum on the internet frequented by Americans or Europeans and you find a huge number of people who have hands on experience in design and manufacture. And this reflects that fact that Europe and the US had built and flown and discarded hundreds of thousands of aircraft before either you or I were born.

It is easy to sit back as say that Indian engineering is not up to scratch. But Indian engineering has not had the time and opportunity to come up along with the industrial revolution a century from 1850. However Indians become great critics after age 16.

Maybe 50 years from now, if there is an internet - a forum such as this one will be full of people who are aware of the design pitfalls of various ideas. Right now on BRF we have about 3 or 4 people who have any inside knowledge and most of them are told on most thread that since they worked for HAL/DRDO there represent the incompetent bums and we know more.

Some of the more controversial doubts on this forum have no answers anywhere on the internet except in technical forums where people who have worked in Lockheed or McDonnell Douglas and others who have flown for decades state their experiences in remarkably technical posts about issues such as stalling, stealth, takeoff and landing distances, radar signatures etc. BRF is nowhere near that level - and that is not BRFs fault. We have a paucity of people who hace done such work. We are able to recognise that our technical capability is not what we want but we seem to be unable to understand why that is so. The continuous criticism and the lament that one is not allowed to criticise is not useful to anyone IMO. Sounds more like whining without insight to me.
^^
Bravo. Gives standing ovation.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Surya »

CM

not just the LCA

there was no anticipation of the trainer fiasco (ended in phoren maal)

maybe not enamoured but that seems to be the knee jerk easy way out and if that option is offered again and again - we will never get anywhere
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Cain Marko »

negi wrote:^ CM I differ with you on the last point; here on the forum be it the MIL, STRAT or even the ECO dhaga we always whine as to why India always punches below her weight in the world arena and why is that we do not aim for big (at least I do that a lot), in this particular case the ADA and DRDO combine set themselves a target which even today we deem as impossible to achieve given the funding and red tape rituals prevalent in our system so criticizing them for dreaming big imho is not done. As for over promising well it is not like DRDO and ADA have stopped IAF from importing AC to maintain it's sanctioned squadron strength so I do not read too much into it, just like I do not read much into the allegation that IAF did not lend support to Tejas .
Negi-mullah - what last point you refer to? I think I have said far too much on this topic already. And the overpromising tendency - the problem here is that planning will become difficult with this. As free as the IAF is in importing, it is limited by GOI sanction of funds. To some extent at least I imagine they would feel that they have more rights in the LCA esp. considering that they were involved in it to some degree. Ultimately, I have come to conclude that the real problem lies in that the GOI needs (needed) to put more into R&D - the lack of vision if any, was mainly theirs.

But frankly, this is going nowhere, and I will bow out of this discussion. As a layman jingo, I still don't understand why the DRDO has to repeatedly (almost unendingly) give dates that it cannot achieve. Why there is so much delay in decision making (the GE-414 vs. EJ200 eval for e.g.). And I sure as hell don't understand Vina's explanations as to why MiG-29's lack of FBW, composites, RSS etc caused it to have a poorer fuel fraction and that a simpler fighter with decent range is not possible sans such technologies. Nor can I understand why a stepwise path is not possible to slowly improve a given fighter with a sound basic design (as has been done with the 29).

The only conclusion is: not being an aero engineer I s'pose these things could well be beyond my understanding.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Austin »

negi wrote:Tejas when conceptualised was supposed to be powered by Kaveri , Rd-33 dimension and size wise is a much bigger engine while F404 was closest to Kaveri's dimensions .
Remember the Rajiv Gandhi/Regan agreement of mid 80's , it was a clincher for LCA when US promised in helping india to develop a hi-tech fighter including engine ,fbw , composites etc.

It was a conscious technical and political decision to develop LCA based on western technology and expertise no amount of RD-33 or AL-31 would have changed that in any way
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Abhibhushan wrote:The Tejas Debate Continues
I really dont want get into this. But some of your facts are simply wrong.

Eg this.
-Dr Velluri became the head of ADA. He wanted some one younger than Dr Raj Mahindra to head the design effort. Dr RM departed. Dr Velluri too did not last very long. He resigned. Dr KH became the head of design. The post of DGADA that Dr V vacated remained unfilled and was held by the SA to RM as an additional charge.
This is simply 180 deg opposite to what happened if I recall correctly. Raj Mahindra according to Valluri was the only one who had hand on experience in fighter aircraft design. He was fired by the powers that be in the Govt and Valluri resigned in protest against that. Valluri was pretty caustic about it and wrote an article ..google around for it and it must be around.. that "Raj Mahindra was fired because his wife was British and Not Italian" .
Apprehensions about the FBW were high. The air force preferred a more conservative approach of a hybrid system with French collaboration wile the DRDO opted for a more daring quad digital path with American help.
What the French offered was an analog one. What the Americans offered us was help in developing a digital one with one analog backup. It was precisely that American part that was held back I think and we were forced to complete it alone going all digital (this is what I understood from Philip Rajkumar's book of which I have a copy)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nachiket »

I think this confusion has existed here for a while now. Did the French offer a fully analog FBW like the one on the M2k or did they offer the (then) newer 3 digital channels + 1 Analog channel FBW (like the one on the Rafale)?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

shiv wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
Here is the simplest of equations: We provide you with a fighter w. uber tech in 10 years = fighter does not see the light of day till much later. Timelines being repeatedly delayed has nothing to do with technical knowledge - considering that those in the know are full of it (scientific knowhow), it should be even more apparent to them that said timelines are ridiculous.

NOBODY is criticizing engg. or technological ability of DRDO etc... but questioning it's ability to not keep timelines it seems is rather painful.

Anyways, the viewpoint being discussed here was that of TKS, and I for one, feel that the man makes some decent points.
If you ask my opinion, even to this day the "average percentage" of Indians who have deep technical knowledge of either aviation of aviation related engineering is miniscule and reflects the technical incapability of the country itself. Visit any technical forum on the internet frequented by Americans or Europeans and you find a huge number of people who have hands on experience in design and manufacture. And this reflects that fact that Europe and the US had built and flown and discarded hundreds of thousands of aircraft before either you or I were born.

It is easy to sit back as say that Indian engineering is not up to scratch. But Indian engineering has not had the time and opportunity to come up along with the industrial revolution a century from 1850. However Indians become great critics after age 16.

Maybe 50 years from now, if there is an internet - a forum such as this one will be full of people who are aware of the design pitfalls of various ideas. Right now on BRF we have about 3 or 4 people who have any inside knowledge and most of them are told on most thread that since they worked for HAL/DRDO there represent the incompetent bums and we know more.

Some of the more controversial doubts on this forum have no answers anywhere on the internet except in technical forums where people who have worked in Lockheed or McDonnell Douglas and others who have flown for decades state their experiences in remarkably technical posts about issues such as stalling, stealth, takeoff and landing distances, radar signatures etc. BRF is nowhere near that level - and that is not BRFs fault. We have a paucity of people who hace done such work. We are able to recognise that our technical capability is not what we want but we seem to be unable to understand why that is so. The continuous criticism and the lament that one is not allowed to criticise is not useful to anyone IMO. Sounds more like whining without insight to me.
+1

Best.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

shiv wrote:When people on this forum say (as an example) "Why not just replace engine X with engine Y - and that would give results A, B and C, and this is so simple" - the person who suggests that does not have a clue as to what he is talking about.

Even attaching a new pylon on a wing has consequences that can lead to an accident and death and it requires testing that lasts several weeks or months and the new design may prove unusable without more modifications leading to more months of testing. This seems to be unknown to 99% of Indians. If you have an aviation industry where tens of thousands of people have done such tests for millions of man hours and that data is already recorded and available as ready reference material in your company archives, then you can make changes more quickly with less testing. You can also produce new aircraft designs more quickly. There is a fantastic article by Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar about the sort of test flying he was required to do by a BAe engineer at HAL for a simple new pylon on a Jag. I need to try and find and link it or scan it for people on here.

It is not for nothing that I linked earlier in this thread a seemingly boring video about missile development in India on Luptonga's channel where the speaker (in a heavy and difficult to understand South Indian accented English) says how every minor change in design leads to great changes in other parameters like weight, response to stresses and flight characteristics, all of which can lead to catastrophic failure of the design unless tested thoroughly. Like I said - if we already had the data because of research done in the 1930s and 1940, we could have built new designs in the 1960s and 1970s on which we could base today's designs. We in India do not even have the 1930s and 1940s design and aerodynamic experience. And no this is not freely available knowledge. Which company will say what turbine blade designs work and do not work based on their own data from the 1940s? This is why intellectual property is such a big deal for western aerospace companies although it means nothing to Bollywood.
Brilliant post.

And in the drawing room of those Indians who have seen the developed world, the comparisons are so easy to come by. And then the criticism follows.

I have a thesis - one example of a society and its technological prowess is also the comic books/ strips that exist. When I was growing up in 70s and 80s, Indian comic books hardly had that, while I remember getting my hands on an American magazine/ comic "Captain Future" - a guy who used to patrol the Milky Way as a Space Police officer from what I remember! Now at that time there was some technological stuff in our comics but hardly enough to suggest a deeper technological level of a society.

Another indication - we started to see "CD - Compact Discs" as show-pieces in our Auto Rickshaws and cars, perhaps in the 90s - either stuck at the back or hanging in car as well. Just another indicator of when that particular technology went relatively deep into the society.

Best
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

I think that one perspective that is missed when we talk of aircraft design is how history has played a role in such a way that each new development in flying is based on an earlier improvement. This has been a continuous chain of innovation going back more than a century to the first aircraft that were built.

The earliest aircraft that flew were not designed for amy military requirement. They were recognized as being useful by militaries for reconnaissance. Early military aircraft had a man with a bomb to be thrown by hand in the open back cockpit or a man witha gun. This was clearly so unsatisfactory that militaries looked for better armament.

The next step was (IIRC) the machine gun in a gunner's cockpit. But by the time this innovation came, aircrfat were already flying. The basic design, the engine, the materials etc were already known. Adding a gun added complications that were made easier if you already knew how to build a plane.

The next step in evolution was the forward firing machine gun. One idea was to have a pusher propeller to bypass the problem of firing through the propeller. But I think it was the Germans who came up with a timer that mechanically linked the gun to the propeller so that the gun would not fire when there was a prop blade in front of the barrel. By the time this complexity was added, they knew how to build flying aircraft and design them to fly with the extra weight of guns.

Further steps would be the development of ways of carrying underslung bombs and releasing them. These would have require new designed with strengthened wings. So by the time world war 2 came - all the European and American (and japanese) companies had solved these initial issues. Tens of thousands of planes had been built by tens of thousands of engineers and factory workers at a time when India had just a handful of engineers of any kind.

The fierce fighting and research and numerous production lines set up for world war 2 spurred new aircraft designs, armament, radar and jet engines. By the time WW2 ended the warring nations were past masters at building reliable flying aircraft with reliable engines. The newest post WW2 designs used the old knowledge of aircraft with the new jet engines. By this time India had HAL, but it was under American control during WW2 and was mainly overhauling and repairing.

By 1951 HAL had designed its own first aircraft - the HT-2 which was apparently modern in capability as a basic trainer but in reality its power, performance etc were not even equal to that of a German Me-109 built in the mid 1930s. In contrast the Canberra bomber was entering service in Britain in 1951. Can you picture the technology gap between HT 2 and the Canberra? And the HT-2 had an imported engine of course.

The HF 24 first flew in 1961. Although it was a big achievement for India, compare with what was being done in Europe and USA: The Alouette II that we still fly flew in 1957, An 12-1957, Vulcan Bomber 1956, Boeing 707 1955, B-52 in 1955, KC-135 in 1956, Ouragan 1952, Dassault Etendard (just retired or about to be retioted French navy) 1958, Mirage III, (still in service) 1956, A-4 Skyhawk 1956 the list is in the link below - see for yourself and check the tech capability gap.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft ... 0-1959.asp
Heck MiG 21 was 1959!!

By 2015 we will have the LCA in service. The MiG 21 will just have retired. The Mirage III may have retired. The B 52 will not have retired. But the Tejas uses technology similar to the F-16 and Mirage 2000. The F-16 entered service in 1978 but I would rate the Tejas as probably having newer flight control and other tech than the early F-16s. The Mirage 2000 entered service in 1982.

If you look back you find that France took from 1956 to 1982 (26 years) to graduate from HF-24/Mirage III level to Mirage 2000. The US did the same leap from Skyhawk (1956) to F-16 - 1978 - 22 years. But both countries had been building engines from the 1800s and jet engines soon after they were invented. India has taken 50 plus years to graduate from HF-24 to Tejas. But the US and France already had 50 years of experience to reach the Skyhawk/Mirage III level. India got there in 10 years - minus the engine tech. It was surely the Kurt Tank effect.

Still, if you look at the history of the last 60 years of Indian aircraft manufacture, we remain about 30 years behind the top countries of the world in technology. We are of course decades ahead of many countries who are incapable of doing what we have done, but if choose to compare ourselves with the top 3, then we are anywhere from 20 to 35 years behind. From the early years of aviation around 1900, the US and France took about 80 years to reach F-16/Mirage 2000 level. India's "early years" started in 1950 and we have taken about 65 years to get to F-16/Mirage 2000 level.

It is worth remembering that countries like Britain and the US have probably had more accident deaths from test flying since the early 1900s than the total number of test pilots ever trained by India. And the US, Britain and Germany, probably had more aircraft engineers working in 1940 than we have in 2012.

So when you compare, please be aware of the history of your own country. People who work in Indian industry do not deserve contempt. They deserve support so that they too can work, make mistakes and learn. No one will teach us any other way. As a nation we have been so enamoured of foreign tech that we have been fooled into thinking that the people who are 30 years ahead will just give is the experience they have. You cannot transfer experience. "Deep" technology transfer, an expression that we on BRF went ga ga over a few years ago means little. We just have to learn the hard way.

Will cross post in the FAQ thread because I put in some effort into this.
Last edited by shiv on 12 May 2012 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

I find it ironic that the country at large and this forum displays a kind of "schizophrenia" of opinions, in which we curse the CAG for quibbling over costs and time overruns of urgent expenditure, while we often choose to quibble over the costs and time overruns of the LCA.

Accountants and managers complain about costs and time overruns. Engineers and scientists cannot do that especially if they have to develop things by re discovery and reinventing the wheel.

The accountant and manager will look at the engineer and say "Stupid bum. X years and Y crores rupees and you still don't get it. We can import from France/USA in X/2 years. OK it may cost, but my calculations say that Y crores today will be equal to 2Y crores tomorrow so its a good deal"

India is a nation that had merchants 3000 years ago. We had astronomers and mathematicians. Pure science. But not applied science. If you know the difference, you don't need to read this. But we did not have modern engineers. We still talk like merchants. We do not think like or empathize with engineers. The vysya surely rates higher than the shudra. And the vysya imagines that he empathizes with and supports the kshatriya who is being held back by the incapable engineer-shudra of DRDO/HAL. For us the engineer is an employee (of someone else), not an innovator, Innovation takes time and money and when that occurs the engineer is called stupid and incompetent.

Even today, the merchant brain understands costs, but it requires an understanding of engineering to know what the shudra has to achieve. We treat engineering difficulties the way we are taught that shudras were treated. As incompetents who suck money out of superior us for no results. Funny how history strikes back. If India is a backward country it is not because DRDO is stupid. Indians at large are themselves primitive and have no idea of what technology means. Indians have not seen technology and the thousands of man years of effort needed to get and keep technology.

Our exposure to Western media make us think that we can somehow be equal to other without putting in the time and effort. That is called magic and it does not happen. We need more Indians to understand what technology actually means. Most people clearly don't understand, but talk like they are experts.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_22539 »

shiv wrote:I find it ironic that .......................Most people clearly don't understand, but talk like they are experts.
Shiv, really, hats off to you. The veiled contempt these people show for our scientists is really galling to see. They are like parasites, they move from one facet of our technological struggle to another when the can no longer survive on the former. These days its harder to criticize projects like the Agni missile, so they focus on easier prey aka the LCA. All they want is to pick at our weaknesses and mock our herculean efforts. Surely, some even prefer the Hunky and Tuffy to anything made by the chi chi DRDO and HAL. Yes, they do try to hide their contempt with half-hearted acceptance of some undeniable accomplishments, but they never forget to add the inescapable "but" and the tirade that accompanies it. They would rather have the LCH become the Tiger and be useless in the Himalayas than even dare to think that the Tiger needs to be more like the LCH. These people need to be confronted at every instance of their bigotry and have their prejudices exposed. Just another form of the modern day Gunga Din.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by harbans »

Will cross post in the FAQ thread because I put in some effort into this.
Excellent Post Shiv Ji. The historical time line, the gaps in tech that emerge after a decade or two of dedicated work put in cannot be understated. While reading it somewhere in the middle i was thinking if you could slightly expand on the same and write an article. Maybe someone here with contacts to a popular magazine or opinion piece article could bring that flow of thought and appreciation that technological development needs to a larger cross section of people beyond BRF itself. However i am not sure if the tech gaps between top 3 and India are 30 years, more like a 7-8 years of hard developmental work. With absorption of funds maybe by 2020 the gaps could be narrowed quite drastically to just a few years. So our efforts in the last 2 decades have been absolutely phenomenal in Missile tech, fighter technology, Space research and so on. Well it's not easy giving that perspective in terms of historical development. Great read indeed!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Great summing up Shiv.
India got there in 10 years - minus the engine tech. It was surely the Kurt Tank effect.


Why is it that KT succeeded with the HF-24 ,barring the underpowered power plant,while the LCA languished? achieve results.KT was the unchalllenged head of the programme who had the experience (as Shiv has noted) and the freedom to operate.They say that a "committee of 1 gets things done" .Unless we in India-GOI,DRDO,HAL whoever,put a head of our key projects a "boss",who runs the show, we will fail to deliver.The success of our rocketry where each project be it from ISRO or the DRDO is mainly because has its own designated project head who is entrusted with delivering the goods.The Russians too adopt this policy,where a former head of the Bulava missile project,a much decorated and celebrated scientist,was sacked by Putin because of the repeated failures.It had its effect.The missile is now being inducted into Russia's strategic arsenal.

With the Agni series of missiles,the need and desire for success all to obvious given the threats from abroad. This produces the required concentrated effort ,as all in the loop understand the significance of India possessing its own ICBM that can be deployed aboard its subs and on mobile launchers on land. Also,NO nation that possesses such technology will sell it to India! This is not the case with other lesser weapon systems like aircraft,tanks,etc.,where export sales help reduce costs for the seller/manufacturer nation.The legions of touts and arms dealers who operate with the connivance of babudom have in the Indian context ensured that many indigenous programmes have stalled to benefit the firang.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

My late cousin Suresh once described a Russian from the Sukhoi design bureau who was asked about technology. He puffed up his chest, patted it and said "What is technology? I am technology.". I think that could be said of Kurt Tank too. We have/had nobody of that caliber. You hand over leadership to a leader if such a leader exists. We never had any aircraft designer who had done nothing but build new designs of aircraft. We may get a few henceforth, provided we keep pushing and using the skills developed.

Of course this is not to say that there were no jealousies and inefficiencies. Even today it appears that no matter how good the R&D agencies are - if the manufacturers like BEML etc can't deliver we get zilch. But these things are clearly an offshoot of India basically being only semi developed/underdeveloped. Development doesn't come easy, cheap or quick.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_22906 »

^^
+1

I'd like to quote one of the business leaders in my organization which goes something like this... "Design knowledge is not really about knowing how well it works, but about knowing how and in how many ways it fails"
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_19648 »

Excellent post Shiv, it is people like you who really show the world, what India and Indians are all about.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ArmenT »

shiv wrote:The next step in evolution was the forward firing machine gun. One idea was to have a pusher propeller to bypass the problem of firing through the propeller. But I think it was the Germans who came up with a timer that mechanically linked the gun to the propeller so that the gun would not fire when there was a prop blade in front of the barrel. By the time this complexity was added, they knew how to build flying aircraft and design them to fly with the extra weight of guns.
Small correction sir. The gent who actually invented the mechanism was a Dutchman, Anton Fokker. His company was based in Germany during WW-I though and he built many planes for the German air force, including the famous Fokker DR-I triplanes that were used by Baron Manfred von Richthofen (the Red Baron) unit.

Before him, there was a famous French pilot named Roland Garros (if that name sounds familiar, that's because the tennis courts that the French Open is hosted at are named after him), who had the first forward firing machine guns mounted on his aircraft. What he did was pure jugaad technique -- he mounted a set of metal deflector plates on his propeller so that any bullets that hit the prop would bounce off in a different direction. This aircraft was the first one to have forward firing machine guns, but one day he had a fuel line problem and was forced to land behind German lines and was taken prisoner before he could destroy his aircraft. The Germans gave his airplane to Fokker to clone a similar deflector, but Fokker had already sunk a few months into designing his interruptor gear and went ahead with developing his original design instead of using deflector plates. A few months later, Fokker's aircraft also featured forward firing guns.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

what is important is now we have established FBW that can be turned to FBO, and FADEC to Kaveri (hopefully indigenous) and convert the quasi import MMR to homegrown all encompassing MMR with AESA panels.

these are ignored, when one find disqualifications in terms of time and schedule.. most non-techies always think about time and temporal aspects of projects rather products. Engineers think in a different way. Most firangi managers fail to understand, and most secret projects in USA or Russia are time driven, but not schedule driven to finish something taking risk rather solve problems to avoid risk for the user.

It is easier to say than do. Most inventors are paid heavy.. but in India, he can't buy peanuts for the same [analogy].
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

Why is it that KT succeeded with the HF-24 ,barring the underpowered power plant,while the LCA languished? achieve results
Says who ? If you ask the IAF folks, they will tell you that it was a miserable failure and it's only use was it's high speed at low altitude that could help it tail turn and run for home. All that why , because the govt of the day wouldn't invest Rs 5 crore to develop the kind of engines it required.

Similar stories with Vijayanta. Incessant whines about it being more "Vickers than Avadi" , "A weapon that is so flawed that it can never be taken to battle" etc. etc. These whines about the LCA and the Arjun are not new. They are part of the old incessant whines that I have been hearing for ever since I can remember. In fact, the whines about the Arjun and LCA are just carry overs of the same old whines.

What has changed is that India as a country has grown up, there is a critical size and number of people who have traveled well and seen the world, worked in top tier companies in any field you can think of, have engineering and business accomplishments that can stand shoulder to shoulder with the best that is out there in the world.. (case in point Facebook IPO, look up the desis who were involved right from the founding days to some of the 1st 10 employees , there is a Desi couple there who are going to strike gold) and can now call out the emperor and his nakedness .

When earlier OFB and the Army would import a MAN fourwheel drive truck and assemble it screwdriver only thank you at Jabalpur and pass it off as "indigenous" and middle school "Civics " books (I remember from my CBSE books) extol it as "Strong trucks being made at Jabalpur" , an AL and Tata would have to simply shut up because , the Oh So Superior , Neta/Babu/Afsar ..Ingland and Vilayat traveled and educated class could turn around and tell the poor dehatis educated in Chennai, Karaikudi, Belgaum and Jadavpur and Ropar kind of places and what have say with that Oxbridge clipped lip, tutt.. tutt.. you are making German and British trucks.

Now with British Leyland history and Tata being a global top tier truck maker after doing "Swaaha" of Daewoo , THEY can turn around and look at the Baboo/Neta/Afsar combine and say, haa haa. we actually can make something that works as good as anything in the world there is today, while you continue to do screw driver assembly of tired old 60s/70s German and Czech & Slovak designs. The boot is on the other foot and kicking.

Couple that with that pesky thing called internet, which of course a huge number of desis played significant part in making it what it is (right from being VCs to entrepreneurs to inventors, engineers to down to the heel DOO s), there is a huge number of those types from every corner of the world ask.. WTF ? The WTFs.. is now a huge crescendo and that is the huge problem for those Baboo/Neta/Afsar combine. The old "Harrumph" wont work. So lets get real. Put nose to the wheel, invest where your mouth is, be street smart, think clearly and strategically and get things to actually work and not some eye wash of "importing designs and assembling at HAL/BEL/BEML /whatever and hence indigenous" or the kicks are going to get harder and incessant. Ouch!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23438 »

I have a question. How would the influx of NRI's (especially those in aviation sectors in countries like US,UK) in HAL affect our experience and knowledge?? Should PSUs focus more on attracting american NRI's from companies like LM and Boeing Would like the perspective of Garus here...
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

I have a question. How would the influx of NRI's (especially those in aviation sectors in countries like US,UK) in HAL affect our experience and knowledge?? Should PSUs focus more on attracting american NRI's from companies like LM and Boeing Would like the perspective of Garus here...
Lets not get OT here and stick to the LCA pls. This kind of question is like asking if all the Indian origin doctors in NYC move to Patna will Patna be like Manhattan in overall healthcare ! Possibly. But is it even probable? Zilch.

Such kind of Khayali Pulaos are best cooked at Urudu Mushaira sessions or in the debating societies at JNU along with the attendant Mujra-Hijra , and best left out of BRF.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

What is important for IAF is to ensure that they participate in the program [like the test pilots have done].. but more so like the test pilots of black widow YF-23 [check intl. aerospace thread for the declassified video].

where, test pilots participates right from project initiations in user and usability requirements, design specs etc. Forces needs to be in couple as a cohesive unit in getting the project to be successful. I know, that analogy is little skewed, for reasons that LM took the cake, while Boeing was thrashed, but the experienced gain was never wasted.

What I see in LCA dhaaga is never appreciations for the innovators or builders.. and I see reasons for either side of the arguments valid. What is important is joint participation in projects for fruition.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

kalkibhagwan wrote:I have a question. How would the influx of NRI's (especially those in aviation sectors in countries like US,UK) in HAL affect our experience and knowledge?? Should PSUs focus more on attracting american NRI's from companies like LM and Boeing Would like the perspective of Garus here...
Kalkibhagwan - it's not about NRIs or RIs. It is, frankly about the shudra tradition of engineering as opposed to the vysya tradition of funding and employing and trading or looking buy or import other easier sources of the same thing.

If you make an aircraft wing and attach it to a car, you will not know if it will fly. If it takes off and crashes you will never know why it crashed. if it flies, you will think you are a success until - some days, weeks or years later it crashes. Then you will not know whether it crashed because the materials you used were faulty, or because there was corrosion, or because you changed the shape slightly, or because there was sudden turbulence, or because the pilot was disoriented. If all these are found to be OK over time you will score a self goal by making any modification of your successful design like making it bigger, or adding something to the wing or adding a couple of passenger seats or payload. If that modification crashes you are screwed.

You cannot simply import people and gain experience in aircraft design. The level of ignorance of the complexity of flying is only heightened by the fact that the top 3-4 aviation countries have been building on their experience for over 100 years now in aircraft design and maybe 150 years in engine design. Yo cannot import NRIs and expect them to bring in 100 to 150 years of experience. And even if you import anyone how long are you going to wait? 1 year? 5 years? 20 years? Some technologies in aviation take decades to mature. if you cannot wait 20 years then you don't know about technology. Any new technology today is being built upon the previous 50 years of experience.

For example, helicopter rotor blades. Can you make me some now? Which books will tell you what size, shape and material they should be? What questions will you ask me about the blades I am asking you to make. If you are first capable of building a safe helicopter in which the blades work and do not fail, you can later talk about "playing" with the design to do funny things like increase lift or reduce noise.

Suppose you have a successful helicopter that has been flying for 10 years and you have the entire design sorted out. Then you say "hey I am going to make the rotor tips shaped different because I suspect it might be better that way". If you do it and it crashes you are back to square 1. So how do you make these changes and ensure safety. The only way is to spend months or years testing the new design and after 2 years testing if it fails and you have a crash, you have to start afresh or give up completely.

Design, technology and know how are a vastly different ball game from "importing" "buying" and book reading. Too many people compare aircraft with cars and rockets and imagine that if you can make cars and rockets, your aircraft failures are because the people are stupid. No. It is the people who think that way who are stupid and ignorant.

Cars operate at the lower limits of physical forces that materials and humans are subjected to and operate at speeds at which humans can interact and react. Rockets are the other extreme. They experience extreme forces and speeds but like condoms, rockets are use and throw. At best a rocket has to work for 20 minutes after which it is discarded.

An aircraft is an object that must work at car speed and rocket speeds every time it flies. Fighters take off at car speed, fly at rocket speed and must maneuver at any speed in between. It must be able to accelerate and slow down and come down safely while staying controllable by a human. And a plane must survive and be usable for at least 20 years - more than the 10 years for a car or 20 minutes for a rocket. A person who compares aircraft design and manufacture with cars or rockets does not know what he is talking about.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vera_k »

kalkibhagwan wrote:I have a question. How would the influx of NRI's (especially those in aviation sectors in countries like US,UK) in HAL affect our experience and knowledge?? Should PSUs focus more on attracting american NRI's from companies like LM and Boeing Would like the perspective of Garus here...
Obvious answer is that it will help, and the government has been doing this for long (e.g. Sam Pitroda). Problem though is that PSUs are insulated from market forces, and tend to fall behind what is needed in the market.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by pragnya »

CM, i am taking your point to refer to an article by Jagan. my reply is not particularly directed at you but to many forumites who beleive and give me an impression that LCA got delayed and hence Mig 21s needed to be upgraded to Bison standards - which is far fetched IMO. i mean look at the time lines.
If God forbid, there is a catastrophic "aar paar ki ladhai" on two fronts starting 2013, of what use will the current LCA be ? I'd have taken a Bison with upgraded engines starting in the late 90s numbering around 150 today, over the current shortage. The Armed Forces have to think in these terms and maintain readiness - promises of delivering caviar in 6 months are of no use for a starved person, who needs daal-roti today.
which is what was done. neither IAF nor GOI kept 'hoping and waiting' for LCA, a fighter - in development - at the cost of war preparedness which is why almost simultaneously they funded FSED PHASE 1 in 1993 and decided upon the Bison upgrade in 1994 and signed the contract in 1996!!! everybody knew LCA will only materialise only in late 2000s considering the 'go ahead' was given only in 1993. so much for the LCA being 'late' and impinging on IAF's war preparedness!!! point is war preparedness factors in the development time, upgrade times and if need be imports are made. it is never otherwise.

also note the Bison upgrade was for 125 Mig 21s with an option for 50 more. even this programme had delays!!! none speaks of it including IAF. is it because our dearest friend Russia is the reason??

some snippets from Jagan's article -
The Indian Ministry of Defence initially banked on the Light Combat Aircraft program to design a replacement for the huge inventory of MiG-21s that would need to be phased out towards the latter half of the 90s and the early years of the 21st century. But with the impending delays in the LCA program it became clear that an interim measure has to be implemented.
the factor of delays atleast in 90s was out of question. FSED happened only in 1993.
Upgrading a select number of the MiG-21s with better avionics and armament to make them more compatible in today’s hostile EW rich environment could do this. Thus was borne the MiG-21-93 program. It was proposed to extend the Total Technical Life (TTL) of the MiG-21Bis from the current level of 2400 Hours as well as Upgrade the avionic capabilities of the existing aircraft. The Russian Counterpart – MiG MAPO indicated in August 91 that an upgrade of the MiG-21 can be carried out. After a joint study, it was decided to award the contract for upgradation to MiG-MAPO in in March 1994.

The proposal for 125 MiG Bis aircraft with an option to upgrade 50 more aircraft at a total cost of US$ 626 million was cleared in January 1996.
HAL dispatched two aircraft (C-2777 and C-2769) to Russia in May 1996 for modification. However the Air Force team could only reach in October 96.The schedule was to upgrade about 30 aircraft by end of the financial year in 1999, followed by 40 aircraft in the subsequent years. The complete upgradation of the 125 aircraft and the additional option of 50 were to be completed by March 2003. However the project got delayed to the extent of three years. Non-Supply of documentation, revision of Bill of Materials and delays in integration of weapons and flight-testing resulted in these delays. The flight-testing and combat evaluation of the aircraft, which was scheduled to be completed by April 1998 was completed only by September 2000 after a delay of 30 months. The Russians in turn allege problems in payments by HAL as well as Low reliability in components supplied by the Indian firms.
The development of the RWR system was entrusted to Advanced Systems Integration and Evaluation Organisation (ASIEO) with an objective to develop a compact Advanced Radar Warning Receiver system for fighter aircraft – which could be used not only for the upgraded MiG-21 but also in other aircraft like the MiG-27 and Sukhoi-30. Two systems were supplied directly to MiG MAPO by April 98 , a delay of almost one year. Further delays were complicated in the delays in supply of the INS system.

However a major handicap of the project was that the study to find out the feasibility of the extension of TTL was not completed on time. It is believed this study, which was subcontracted to NAL in Bangalore was completed only in the middle of 2002. It was also charged in a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) , a government watchdog body that audits the expenditure on all financial expenditure in India that the Russian contractors had gone back on technology transfer without any royalty clause. The report also said that similar technology transfer agreements for avionic systems had also not been finalised with western vendors, which could pose a difficulty in repair and overhaul of the upgraded fighters.
Wg Cdr Dhir flew the first ‘series’ production UPG (CU-2782) on Jan 25th, 2002. The first three aircraft bought out by HAL were taken to Jodhpur for a series of weapon trials using the KAB-500 TV Guided bomb. No.3 Squadron however could take official charge of the aircraft only by May 25th, 2002. By that time, the IAF had officially decided to call the Upgraded MiG, the Bison. The induction was not without problems. The initial aircraft were called away for further testing and the Squadron continued to fly the Bis in large numbers. However with more numbers of aircraft coming in, the Bis aircraft were handed over and flown out to the other units by the end of July.

In Sep 2002, one of the Bisons had a flame out during a normal sortie, Sqn Ldr Rajat Nangia had to eject. The aircraft flew by itself for a distance and carried out a force landing in the slushy paddy fields of Punjab – the fuselage being surprisingly intact and with little damage. The airframe was airlifted back by a Mi-26 chopper and was shipped back to Ozhar by Transport. The lack of serious damage in the aircraft enabled the engineers to determine the cause of the flame out which was traced out to a faulty fuel pump for the R-25 engine. Though flying was kept restricted for the duration of this investigation, with the findings of the investigation team, the aircraft were subjected to fuel pump modifications on site.


Jagan's article

@shiv, great posts. very succinctly put.

@vina, spot on.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rohitvats »

@Shiv, what has the technical expertise of BRF members got to do with the missed time lines by the DRDO on LCA? After all, if there are minuscule number of people who understand anything to do with aircraft then surely most of them would be with either IAF or DRDO.

So, w/o even getting into nitty gritty of aircraft this and that, as a layman, I see DRDO making x-promise and slipping on the same. And doing that again - last I heard the FOC has slipped by couple of years. So, is it me w/o any knowledge of aviation who has fvcked up here or has the DRDO team failed to realize the gravity of challenge? Has the DRDO not been long enough into the LCA development cycle to understand where they stand or are we again going to parrot the line about "lack of expertise because we've not done this before" to hide this development?

If the reason for this delay is actually the "lack of expertise because we've not done this before", then it brings me to the point raised by Philip and CM - was the operational requirement of IAF held hostage to the development of R&D capacity in the country? Could the iterative development process so passionately talked about here been used to address both the requirements - IAF requirement for a fighter aircraft and national requirement for development of capabilities in the aviation domain?

If we want to ensure that there are no future fvck up with respect to development and delivery of a particular system, a critical analysis of the approach needs to be made.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

rohitvats wrote:@Shiv, what has the technical expertise of BRF members got to do with the missed time lines by the DRDO on LCA? After all, if there are minuscule number of people who understand anything to do with aircraft then surely most of them would be with either IAF or DRDO.
Your conclusion is not necessarily correct.

The BRFite connection is as follows. The number of experts on BRF reflects the number of experts in this field in the general population. If they are thin on the ground on BRF they are thin on the ground among Indians at large. In any given discussion on say stalling, or high AoA testing - we may at best have one person on here who knows anything. More often none.

So when we have a discussion on subjects which no one knows anything about, we are the judges, we are the jury and as far as we are concerned we are dead right. Ahead of curve. No argument whatsoever. For that reason I can offer no argument when you say:
rohitvats wrote:So, w/o even getting into nitty gritty of aircraft this and that, as a layman, I see DRDO making x-promise and slipping on the same. And doing that again - last I heard the FOC has slipped by couple of years. So, is it me w/o any knowledge of aviation who has fvcked up here or has the DRDO team failed to realize the gravity of challenge? Has the DRDO not been long enough into the LCA development cycle to understand where they stand or are we again going to parrot the line about "lack of expertise because we've not done this before" to hide this development?

If the reason for this delay is actually the "lack of expertise because we've not done this before", then it brings me to the point raised by Philip and CM - was the operational requirement of IAF held hostage to the development of R&D capacity in the country? Could the iterative development process so passionately talked about here been used to address both the requirements - IAF requirement for a fighter aircraft and national requirement for development of capabilities in the aviation domain?

If we want to ensure that there are no future fvck up with respect to development and delivery of a particular system, a critical analysis of the approach needs to be made.
You must be right. However I was offering my perspective on a take it or leave it basis. After all in a discussion where everyone knows bugger all about the real technology related issues concerned what anyone says, you, Philip or me must be right.

The other un-discussed possibility is that the for the first 30 years of DRDO even the DRDO heads did not know anything much about the technologies they were supposed to deliver and made promises they could not meet. That was, and remains a problem in an India where 99% of people do not have a technical education. If we have more than 11 million engineers then we have 1% of the population there. For their part I am certain the armed forces too had only contempt for these bums (on various counts) and were naturally keen to "get on with their job" of defending the country but were happier to be handed readymade, ready to use weapons "proven" to Soviet or British standards. And the disdain for the DRDO by the armed forces was echoed by people in the DRDO who were unable to explain or solve their issues and felt the armed forces were unreasonable bums.

We have had, in my view two new castes of people, the DRDO caste and the Armed Forcs caste. Because armed forces caste==kshatriya and is a noble caste we admire them across the board. The DRDO/PSUs are workmen who make things with their hands - akin to kumhar and chamar. Serious note must be taken of their failures. They need to deliver on time and on quality and asking that their viewpoint be understood may not be necessary for everyone. We have educated brahmins and accountant banias who count and document the hours and paise thrown fruitlessly on the DRDO so we have a measure of their failures well documented, and discussed. Nothing fundamentally wrong with all this as far as I can tell.

Or maybe it is actually worse than this. The purse strings are controlled by the brahmins and vysyas (politicians, civil service and business houses) who are willing to fund the kshatriyas (armed forces) for their own protection. They will pay whoever delivers. if the shudra engineers of UK or Russia deliver they deserve credit and will get business. If the shudra engineers of Indian PSUs do not deliver they should be held accountable. This is India as it is.

All I am saying is that this India is never going to innovate. This is the eternal India
rohitvats
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rohitvats »

shiv wrote: Your conclusion is not necessarily correct.

The BRFite connection is as follows. The number of experts on BRF reflects the number of experts in this field in the general population. If they are thin on the ground on BRF they are thin on the ground among Indians at large. In any given discussion on say stalling, or high AoA testing - we may at best have one person on here who knows anything. More often none. So when we have a discussion on subjects which no one knows anything about, we are the judges, we are the jury and as far as we are concerned we are dead right. Ahead of curve. No argument whatsoever.
Shiv, it is one thing to say that DRDO has screwed up with particular aspect of LCA design and then debate on that topic with technical knowledge and back ground to prove why this is so. Something like this has happened in the Arjun Thread where people have rubbished claims made by the IA and have used open source material to comment on how Arjun is superior to T-90.

Accepted, the Arjun topic is much easier to comprehend than the various facets of aircraft design but do correct me if I'm wrong - has there been a debate on this thread criticizing ADA/DRDO for certain features of LCA for whatever reasons? Or are we equating saying that any comments on the project management of the LCA itself requires knowledge of esoteric stuff like performance of aircraft at high AoA? And before I take a Phd. in aviation, I need not comment on the project management aspect at all

My simple submission was about the handling of the LCA Development Programme - surely, if lesser mortals like us are unqualified to comment on the topic, at least those in the business of doing such things should know. So, when DRDO makes claims to do certain thing X in time frame Y and it does not do so (assuming no external factors impinge) - what happens then? And what am I supposed to do? Simply sit back as I don't have a Phd. in aviation and venerate the folks? Or, can I at least ask what happened? Did DRDO underestimate the extent of the problem? Is even asking a question a strict no-no because I should not criticize till I have the requisite knowledge?
You must be right. However I was offering my perspective on a take it or leave it basis. After all in a discussion where everyone knows bugger all about the real technology related issues concerned what anyone says, you, Philip or me must be right.
It is not about Philip, you and me being right - it is about people who's job is to know about technologies who need to get it right.

It is like me visiting a doctor with a problem --> doctor diagnoses as problem x, start medication--> no relief--> doctor says, sorry, wrong diagnosis, it is problem Y. Should I just sit back and be thankful that at least doctor tried or call him out for his incompetence?

The other un-discussed possibility is that the for the first 30 years of DRDO even the DRDO heads did not know anything much about the technologies they were supposed to deliver and made promises they could not meet. That was, and remains a problem in an India where 99% of people do not have a technical education. If we have more than 11 million engineers then we have 1% of the population there.


Well, I'm yet to see a single instance of DRDO owning up to the fact that they might have screwed up. It is always someone else to blame. And here we are dragging the common people into the argument here. After all, 99% of people w/o technical education did not make promises to do X or Y? It is people with the requisite qualification who endeavored to do things which falls under their domain of expertise. With the same 99% base, ISRO/BARC reached where they are now - after all, there's is as much a multidisciplinary field as aviation.
For their part I am certain the armed forces too had only contempt for these bums (on various counts) and were naturally keen to "get on with their job" of defending the country but were happier to be handed readymade, ready to use weapons "proven" to Soviet or British standards. And the disdain for the DRDO by the armed forces was echoed by people in the DRDO who were unable to explain or solve their issues and felt the armed forces were unreasonable bums.
Well, this line of argument has been bandied about a lot of times and I don't see how the *present* question of LCA Project Management by DRDO is served by your argument. Yes, there was bad blood between DRDO and Services - but is that responsible for the development path adopted by the DRDO with respect to LCA? Why are we bringing in here tangential arguments?

Rest of your post is too complicated for my simple mind.
shiv
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

rohitvats wrote: It is like me visiting a doctor with a problem --> doctor diagnoses as problem x, start medication--> no relief--> doctor says, sorry, wrong diagnosis, it is problem Y. Should I just sit back and be thankful that at least doctor tried or call him out for his incompetence?
Rohit that is your choice isn't it? People can have different opinions no? It's not as though only one opinion is the right opinion.
rohitvats wrote:And here we are dragging the common people into the argument here. After all, 99% of people w/o technical education did not make promises to do X or Y? It is people with the requisite qualification who endeavored to do things which falls under their domain of expertise. With the same 99% base, ISRO/BARC reached where they are now - after all, there's is as much a multidisciplinary field as aviation.
We are not dragging common people anywhere rohit - so please stop that particular emotional rhetoric. I used the comparison of 1% experts versus 99% common people, so even if common people are being dragged anywhere they are being dragged by me. Not we. The 99% did not make promises. I am accusing them of being ignorant. Because they are the 99% common as opposed to 1% experts. My objection is when they pretend to be experts and don't even realise it.
rohitvats wrote:Well, this line of argument has been bandied about a lot of times and I don't see how the *present* question of LCA Project Management by DRDO is served by your argument. Yes, there was bad blood between DRDO and Services - but is that responsible for the development path adopted by the DRDO with respect to LCA? Why are we bringing in here tangential arguments?
This line is bandied about because it is true, to an extent. But there is more to it than that. However you insist that the "present question" is something or other. Not sure where you pulled that present question from but you insist that it is the present question and if you insist that I must answer it I think it's like saying "If xyz had been done in 19xx maybe abc would have happened to LCA". To me that is the same as lamenting, "If my aunt had a penis she would have been my uncle". That is my opinion. I have however pointed out certain structural problems in Indian society at large that almost certainly played a role in the LCA saga. Whether that is wholly responsible for the path that you are talking about or not is something that I have net even attempted to answer.

Your idea of tangential argument is different from mine. You are clearly free to call anything tangential if it does not conform to your viewpoint. You are making a judgement about my statement and then you want me to answer why I acted the way your judgement says I acted? Perhaps that is exactly the same way you are judging the DRDO? You make a judgement and then ask everyone why they acted the way your judgement says they acted? Only you can answer that. Not others. Like I said, we are all experts here. The judge and the jury.
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