LCA News and Discussions

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby vic » 11 Dec 2012 16:16

As I have given myself the clearance, I say that ADA-HAL are creating a basis for another 5 year delay by saying that they forgot that production requires production line.

They want the foreign consultant to do everything, HAL will write a chque while somebody somewhere will take a cut.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 11 Dec 2012 17:34

you are now booked on many accounts.
- using a name to identify a sect to be the servant.
- occupation and destruction of gov property
- intentionally inciting violence against gov community
- stepped up into allegations, but not have shown how much tax you paid
- and other various local and international laws and protection to such individuals.

OK/OT... let us get focused here.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3012
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Kanson » 11 Dec 2012 20:42

indranilroy wrote:My problem is not having serious difficulties. I problem is in the experts not being able to foresee it. Do we have to stumble on the problem before realizing that there is work to be done?

The assembly line might have a problem, but EFs are coming of an existing assembly line!
Roy saab, we can criticize HAL anytime we want. There are far more sticks available to beat HAL with. So let's understand the problem they are facing first - which is totally missed. Without knowing what it is how can we say it is foreseeable to experts?

indranilroy wrote:P.S. Reminds of Feature - The Light Combat Aircraft Story by Air Marshal MSD Wollen (Retd).
In 2001, HAL/ADA were promising IOC by 2005-2006. AM Wollen was much more practical. He did not expect IOC before 2010.
France (Dassault Aviation) built and exhaustively flew a demonstrator aircraft (Rafale-A) before embarking on construction of Rafale prototypes. Over 2,000 flights were completed by September 1994 when first Flight of a production Rafale was still 20 months away. At that point of time, Dassault Aviation had built or flown 93 prototypes, of which at least fifteen went into production after sixteen years elapsed from 'first-metal-cut' of the Rafale demonstrator to entry into service. Current plans for the LCA is ten years. And what of India's past record? Just a hand-ful of trainer aircraft designed and productionised. The story is similar for the Typhoon (earlier Eurofighter 2000). It was seventeen years from 'first-metal-cut' (EAP) to squadron entry in 2000. One more timeframe needs to be noted. It took Gripen six and a half years from first flight (prototype) to entry into squadron. For the LCA, four and a half years is the target! The quantum of test flying hours required to attain Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) is about 2000 hours; an impossible task in four and a half years. Concurrent production will shorten service entry time, but this will not enable the present target to be reached.


No offense to AM Wollen or anyone. Anyone can give such prediction as before so and so time or after so and so tome. Take for example, I can say, IOC will be reached before 2020. So I can be correct too. On the contrary no one can give precise time point, like say, exactly in the month of June 2013: it may or may not happen. And from Project Management perspective there are reasons for fixing some time points.
Just my humble views!

manum
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 07 Mar 2010 15:32
Location: still settling...
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby manum » 11 Dec 2012 22:07

ON a lighter note....

May be we can hire production consultant from PRC...

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8172
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 11 Dec 2012 22:42

Kanson wrote:No offense to AM Wollen or anyone. Anyone can give such prediction as before so and so time or after so and so tome. Take for example, I can say, IOC will be reached before 2020. So I can be correct too. On the contrary no one can give precise time point, like say, exactly in the month of June 2013: it may or may not happen. And from Project Management perspective there are reasons for fixing some time points.
Just my humble views!


I don't think that you read the entire article. If you have the time please go through it. It will be worth it. There is proper reason as to why he said 2010. and it is exactly the same way it has panned out. I simply can't believe that HAL did not see this before. The same goes for setting up the production line. I am not an expert. But setting up an assembly line is not easy. Who does not know this. Are you trying to tell me that the experts in HAL did not know/foresee this?

P.S. I am not one of those guys who just wants to find the first stick to hit HAL. I am just trying to be objective within my own ability to reason.

Misraji
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 11:53
Location: USA

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Misraji » 11 Dec 2012 23:11

indranilroy wrote:...SNIP...
I simply can't believe that HAL did not see this before. The same goes for setting up the production line. I am not an expert. But setting up an assembly line is not easy. Who does not know this. Are you trying to tell me that the experts in HAL did not know/foresee this?


Absolutely. This event completely erodes my confidence of ever seeing LCA in IAF service.
Its simply not happening.

--Ashish

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 12 Dec 2012 00:25

When we build systems from scratch, with no expertise, we expect the industry to grow and our setup grow along with the time. Which happens by way of user inputs. But, when push comes to shove, it is all about competition that gets in the way.. for example, you will see how external forces apply breaks in terms of blocking technology etc. The fact remains, that we can't jumpstart without experiences. It is just not like a battery situation.

It is all about graduation.. and the frustration industry goes thru is unbearable, especially gov policies and funding is not directed with time bound activities and schedules. For example, Kaveri was not even respected in gov budgeting.

And, again we have this ever drawing brain drains continuing on for ever.. systems and embedded engineering can't be done that way. Careful planning is required. The better way to establish is building sub components, and play as big players, like ELTA of Israel does. HAL should have now selling AESA modules and jammers etc. Sky is the limit, when it comes to competition, and in desh, we have lesser paid folks than comparing the rest of the world. so, we failed to tap the right brains at the time when required to be done.

It is all catch up game now.. and IAF knows that. The reason, it is focusing on Mk-2.. but, the problem should not repeat again foreseeing a mk-3. So, better buck up and correct process. We can afford to miss technologies, and buy it.. we can't afford to slip schedules to a larger effect and escape. It will give massive heart attack later on, if we continue on this path.

member_23360
BRFite
Posts: 152
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_23360 » 12 Dec 2012 03:22

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2012/12/m ... s-fly.html

AL’s poor production fails to translate the Tejas’ contemporary design into a reliable fighter that takes to the air day after day. Most Tejas problems stem from poor production, not from an inadequate design. But they prevent the fighter from flying, slowing down the flight-test programme and making the IAF believe that the Tejas has serious reliability issues.

None of this gives HAL sleepless nights, since it regards the Tejas as the problem of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the LCA programme. HAL prefers to focus on building foreign aircraft under licence, a mechanical task that it has done for decades with ever-increasing levels of inefficiency. The Sukhoi-30MKI, which was initially bought fully built from Russia for Rs 30 crore per fighter, is now built by HAL (substantially from Russian systems and sub-systems) for well over ten times that figure. Building expensively suits HAL well; since its profits are a percentage of production costs, higher costs mean higher profit.

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4071
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lilo » 12 Dec 2012 05:27

I think the only solution for HAL's criminal neglect of indigenous projects of national importance (like Tejas and IJT) is to hive off parts of it to Tata's or L&T or even better let them build a greenfield aerospace facility for Tejas fighters with the best of the off the shelf tech incorporated (imported or otherwise) into the production line...


apropos, the state of the art production line for Nano built in Sanand was an eye opener (thanks to Gaganji for the heads up in the auto thread).. its not apples vs oranges - iam talking about the project management skills and efficiency which Tatas brought about to reduce the cost ..


SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 12 Dec 2012 05:54

jee.. absolutely nothing nano experience can help them in making LCA. clearly they will spin off from even Earth gravity by looking LCA via a nano prism.
Last edited by SaiK on 12 Dec 2012 05:55, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2012 05:54

It has been known from 2010 and discussed on BRF that converting one off prototype assemblies for Tejas parts into a production line was always going to be difficult because many parts will have to be subcontracted to suitable private players who need to produce high quality parts at reasonable cost and within a time frame. The design part s over it is now production. They may even have to invest in production lines/machinery. Recall how Kota Harinarayana wrote of how he found a workshop in Mumbai who would do some complex piping in some special material for LCA as a one off job? Now that piping has to be manufactured in larger numbers within a time frame and a budget and not by HAL. HAL was never going to set up assembly lines for everything. But finding reliable private/public sector partners is more difficult than saying "Let's call in the marines/Tatas/Mahinrdras/Chinese"

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 07:01

Rs 1,500 crore more for light combat aircraft Tejas as HAL fails to meet targets

If the following statement:

Briefing Business Standard the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), P Subramanyam, who runs the LCA programme, admits that nobody realized that setting up a production line was a technology by itself. So far, ADA and HAL have built only Tejas prototypes and limited-series aircraft, producing individual parts one-by-one like a tailor making a suit. When HAL graduated to a standardised production line, it encountered serious difficulties.

ADA and HAL have realized that creating a production line needs major effort… That realization has come,” says Subramanyam.


is right.

Then this is a massive failure.

That the realization has come is not the issue, nor is the difficulty posed by the various technologies.

It is the timing of this realization that is the problem. It should have come years ahead. And that is a total lack of management skills.

The fact that the time has come to produce LCAs (IN 2012) and there is no production capability (IN 2012) is the issue.

We all know it is difficult - so that is not an issue. We all are aware of IST - so that is not an issue. We all know that even some of the best plans have glitches - so that is not an issue. Asking consultants to help is the right thing to do. Asking private companies to help is the right thing to do.

But in 2012 to say that "ADA and HAL have realized that creating a production line needs major effort… That realization has come" is totally wrong. That realization should have come around 2008ish, then we would have had a good handle on a production line right now - does not mean it would have been perfect, but certainly not the situation they are facing now.

I think it is too late for the MK1 for the production line. Build more by hand,whatever. IF it is true that they do not even have a design for the production line in 2012, then 2020 is earliest they will ship out a MK1 if they start now.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36415
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 12 Dec 2012 07:36

I think we are reading in to that article too much.. as such, with the current LSP mode of development, Mk.1 can kick off within HAL. It is only for advanced production engineering setup for Mk.2, we have started to look for potential private/public enterprise to maintain a delivery schedule as needed by HAL. And the oppty. here is HAL can either spawn off or go for a joint venture with some heavy investor who is willing to make a name, and learn. LCA Mk.1 is a learning oppty for our private industries, including HAL in terms of keeping up with production lines.

so, get a kick start (anticipate failures of schedules etc), for mk.1.. factor the learning into mk.2 production line, and advance.

V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 674
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby V_Raman » 12 Dec 2012 07:40

I dont believe in any of this crap about lack of parts standardization for production, realization of the difficulties in setting up production line etc. It just cannot happen when we have so much of standardized automobile related manufacturing already happening in the country, and we are aware of the challenges. We have experience with Arjun production line as well. If this is really about Mk.1 then something else is being hidden.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 07:42

The defence ministry (MoD) has allocated an additional Rs 1,500 crore to the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme, boosting its projected Rs 14,047 crore budget. The additional amount will be spent on a production line for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd to build 20 fighters that Indian Air Force (IAF) has ordered for its first Tejas squadron. The IAF has also promised another order for 20 more Tejas for its second squadron. Once the improved Mark II Tejas is developed, the IAF will field 6-7 Tejas squadrons (120-140 fighters).

This need for additional money arises from the failure of HAL, a public sector aerospace monopoly, to establish a production line that can build at least 8 Tejas fighters a year. The production line that HAL set up two years ago on the priceless real estate that it holds in the heart of Bangalore has not yet produced a single Tejas fighter.

Briefing Business Standard the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), P Subramanyam, who runs the LCA programme, admits that nobody realized that setting up a production line was a technology by itself. So far, ADA and HAL have built only Tejas prototypes and limited-series aircraft, producing individual parts one-by-one like a tailor making a suit. When HAL graduated to a standardised production line, it encountered serious difficulties.
Last edited by NRao on 12 Dec 2012 07:42, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 12 Dec 2012 07:42

plus HAL has already setup production line for Su30 and Jaguar using the vendors machinery. so it cant be said they are newbies in this. the jaguar production line was under same roof in bangalore itself, right next to the Tejas hangar!

on another note I have heard the F22 was also handbuilt in a manner of speaking and each plane has its own spec, with parts needing to be custom ordered for each plane because some tolerances varied?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 07:48

Singha wrote:plus HAL has already setup production line for Su30 and Jaguar using the vendors machinery. so it cant be said they are newbies in this. the jaguar production line was under same roof in bangalore itself, right next to the Tejas hangar!


Ouch.

That only makes matters (with the LCA) that much worse.

Given that these two were imports, I suspect that HAL totally underestimated what needed to be done to get teh production line going. But then that too is a management issue - failure.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Victor » 12 Dec 2012 07:54

It is truly scary what India is up against when the head of HAL says that he has suddenly realized the complexity of setting up a production line after 50 years of setting up production lines for the top western and Russian fighters. Truly unbelievable statement which I hope is a DDM slip. If true, India is up sh!t creek without a paddle.

There is no way to whitewash or hide HAL's incompetence. Now Dassault doesn't want to be associated with it:
Dassault Aviation seeks clarity on role of HAL in supply of Rafale fighters to Air Force
The French company has told the ministry that if it is given the overall responsibility for the project, it should be given the freedom to decide on the proportion of work to be done by the HAL and private companies in the programme..

In that case, the firm would determine the role of the defence and security wing of a new Indian defence company in the project and a major share of work would be given to it.

Soon after Dassault was declared as the lowest bidder for the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal pipping EAD's Eurofighter, it signed an MoU with a Reliance Industries Limited company for working together in the security sector.


This has the potential of derailing the Rafale project altogether. Dassault has studied HAL and simply will not accept it as a partner.
Last edited by Victor on 12 Dec 2012 07:59, edited 1 time in total.

pentaiah
BRFite
Posts: 1671
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby pentaiah » 12 Dec 2012 07:55

Singha wrote:plus HAL has already setup production line for Su30 and Jaguar using the vendors machinery. so it cant be said they are newbies in this. the jaguar production line was under same roof in bangalore itself, right next to the Tejas hangar!

on another note I have heard the F22 was also handbuilt in a manner of speaking and each plane has its own spec, with parts needing to be custom ordered for each plane because some tolerances varied?


HAL is quite adept at that since the days of HS748 made in Kanpur, no part from a/c would fit another
Each plane had its own ammonia prints and scraped to fit :mrgreen:

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 12 Dec 2012 07:56

plus HAL has produced under license hundreds of AlouetteIII and Llama helicopters across the road from Tejas hangar from since before most of us were even born.

they also setup a greenfield production line that is delivering Dhruv helis now. similar machinery would be in use there from much the same vendors as Tejas needs..a bunch of german, french, italian , US and japanese cos perhaps who specialize in factory automation and aerospace machines to make parts.

so this is a very strange statement to make.
Last edited by Singha on 12 Dec 2012 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2012 07:57

NRao wrote:It is the timing of this realization that is the problem. It should have come years ahead. And that is a total lack of management skills.

No. The news item is wrong. We have discussed right here on this thread the fact that this was going to be a problem more than a year ago based on statements by someone from HAL and and a former COAS. Need to look for that article. There was an interview and related news items that clearly spelt out the problems that lay ahead. This news item only makes it look like something new has been discovered.

Even I had made a comment about the problems of serial production about a month ago on this thread and that was not due to special insight but because it has been revealed long ago that there is a big gap between one off fashioning of parts in HAL and finding industry partners for limited high quality serial production.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 12 Dec 2012 08:03

looks like they have been sleeping on it though and only asked for financial sanction so far?

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 08:05

The news item is wrong.


That is a possibility and cannot be discounted.

However, whatever is the true picture, the fact remains that for the MK1 there is no production line today. Is that right?

Secondly were we (BR or HAL) expecting some form of a production line right now? Or may be I should ask when were we (all) expecting a production line to be in place? Do we have a year that we can post?







No matter what, I am assuming that there is no - none/zilch - production facilities for the Mk1 - as we all post. IF (BIF if) that is true, no matter what the discussions were or are, MK1 cannot be produced - on a production line - before 2020 is my bet. Sath sal tho lagenge. Easily.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 12 Dec 2012 08:07

IAF didnt help matters by giving a small order of 20+20 for the MK1. hardly enough to justify a production line. perhaps its better these continue to be handbuilt and have uniquely numbered parts per plane and the production line be setup only for the Mk2. just stockpile enough spares for each plane in the bins and let it ride.

in contrast the Bandar has a confirmed production of atleast 200 units and perhaps another 200 more in due course.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2012 08:10

Why is anyone surprised?

Here is an article from march 2011
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/03/d ... tejas.html
A high-level HAL team is touring the production facilities of the world’s three biggest fighter manufacturers — Boeing and Lockheed Martin in the US; and Eurofighter in Europe — to examine how Tejas’ production can be raised from the eight fighters per year that HAL’s Tejas production line in Bangalore will start building next year. The IAF will eventually need 120-140 Tejas, while the Navy will require another 20-40 fighters.

The DRDO aeronautics chief, Prahlada, who also oversees ADA, told Business Standard, “We have asked HAL to find a way to step up Tejas production. They should look for alternatives, like more outsourcing, or setting up joint ventures [to build sub-systems of the Tejas]. This will also help HAL to grow. But each agency knows its own problems best… only they know where the shoe pinches! So, HAL knows best how to fix their problem.”
HAL, however, blames the slow production of Tejas fighters on the IAF’s placement of piecemeal orders. “We are also responsible to our shareholders. With an initial order for just 20 Tejas fighters, how much money could we have realistically invested in a production line?” asks P Soundara Rajan, HAL’s director, corporate planning and marketing. “So far, future Tejas orders of 100-120 more fighters are only plans. When an order is actually placed, we will be justified in upgrading our production line to produce more aircraft. Outsourcing to industry is something that we are already doing.”



My own post from 2011
viewtopic.php?p=1141652#p1141652
The ability of HAL to be able to standardize manufacturing practices fro LCA has been mentioned by many people - and was discussed on here after Aero India 2011. Problem is when Kota Harinarayana reminisces about a Mumbai workshop who could machine a complex part perfectly for LCA TD it makes a memorable story - but getting the same part to be reliably made in numbers is a different ball game. Does that Mumbai workshop have the capacity to do that? Can quality be assured? If the technique is a secret patented/non patented process of that workshop will they share it with an industrial house that may be willing to take on the job?

These are the hurdles that will need to be crossed for LCA serial production.


Another post I made in Nov 2011 more than a year ago
viewtopic.php?p=1199644#p1199644
The fact that there are multiple issues to be solved has been clear for many months since the IOC. And part of the problem is HAL's ability to arrange a regular supply of manufactured parts from third parties/private subcontractors for mass production as opposed to the hand built one-off stuff for the early versions.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 08:15

My feel is that the LCA was/is a necessary experience - with all its warts. I would not give anything back. It is a success as far as I am concerned.

However, man, they need a project manager who needs to take control. To hell with all these government yahoos.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2012 08:15

NRao wrote:
No matter what, I am assuming that there is no - none/zilch - production facilities for the Mk1 - as we all post.


This is how I see it. Even if we have 99% production facilities the production cannot go ahead unless it is 100%, This is like MiG 21s could not fly without brake pads whose supply was stopped by Russia

So for production, it is either 100% or nothing. If there is no production line for one vital component - it is a no go.

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2628
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Victor » 12 Dec 2012 08:18

Singha wrote:perhaps its better these continue to be handbuilt and have uniquely numbered parts per plane and the production line be setup only for the Mk2.

No, the production line should be built asap but with provision for MK2 firmly in mind since I doubt that it will be very different. Knowing how quick and nimble HAL is, it would be best to let it tinker and do jugaad with this line to iron out all the gremlins so when MK2 comes on stream, it goes smoothly.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 08:25

Shiv,

The 2011 article you posted (thanks for that) does not really solve the problem.

As I understand that article:

A high-level HAL team is touring the production facilities of the world’s three biggest fighter manufacturers — Boeing and Lockheed Martin in the US; and Eurofighter in Europe — to examine how Tejas’ production can be raised from the eight fighters per year that HAL’s Tejas production line in Bangalore will start building next year.


sounds to me that they:
1) Planned on/wanted to, start a "production line" this year (as the article was in 2011)
2) They expected to produce 8 aircrafts a year
3) They were touring the facilities abroad to figure out how to increase this production rate

IF that is true, then I think/feel that the latest article about "ADA and HAL have realized that creating a production line needs major effort… That realization has come" holds!!!!

Seems to me that forget increasing the rate, they are unable to even produce 8 a year. Or 1 a year - as it stands.

That tour was a waste of time and funds.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2012 08:33

NRao wrote:Seems to me that forget increasing the rate, they are unable to even produce 8 a year. Or 1 a year - as it stands.

That tour was a waste of time and funds.


I think it is a waste of time to ask whether the tour was worth it or not. Clearly it looks like those three foreign biggies have been unable to help. In that sense we have learned something.

All I want to say is that HAL's problems probably reflect the underdevelopment of our private industrial infrastructure where we cannot find workshops and skills to mass manufacture the parts we need for LCA. The reason I stress this is that I think there some belief that the capacity to manufacture high tech aviation grade components exists in large amount in the Indian private sector but only HAL/DRDO do not know about it.

No. This is how backward Indian industry is. Not just HAL. If HAL is raja we have a case of yatha raja tatha praja. The entire country has to pitch in and we are not there yet. Cursing HAL is missing the forest of national incapability while examining the tree of HAL's incompetence.

In the west, you have private workshops who are already supplying high tech stuff for various purposes, and all that an aviation major has to do is to place an order for 25 or 50 high tech components for a small production run. Such workshops do not exist in India. We are a low to medium tech nation.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2012 08:41

No disrespect to the Aviation Base repair depots, but every Aero India there is a stall manned by the IAF's Aviation Base repair Depots who have done in house import substitutions for various items. Valves, rings, canopies, pipes etc The substitutes seem to work but look so poorly finished that it reflects the level of tech that the IAF possess to substitute things that cannot be imported. Please take a good look at the base repair depot stall in Aero India 2013. I am proud of their work but not impressed that it is high tech. I would have thought that some private player should be there to do that. Looks like no such private player is there. And HAL is not able to produce those imported parts so it is left to BRDs to do the import substitution. :roll:


NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 08:59

The fact that HAL/ADA has already produced 8 LSPs is proof enough that there is technical and manufacturing capability at that level.

What seems to be lacking is 1) Management, 2) Risk taking or perhaps better risk sharing, and 3) building supply chain (which includes manufacturing).

Correct #1 and all else will fall into place. Can we bring Kalamji out of retirement for a second? I do not see this as a big deal, just a very urgent one. Time is of essence.

Navy, eager for Tejas, placing orders for 8 naval fighters


Nice. BUT, these are not the final version. These are meant only for training purposes.

Image

Back to my cartoon channel.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7385
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby disha » 12 Dec 2012 09:07

In the west, you have private workshops who are already supplying high tech stuff for various purposes, and all that an aviation major has to do is to place an order for 25 or 50 high tech components for a small production run. Such workshops do not exist in India. We are a low to medium tech nation.


^^^ In some forms yes and in some other no. We are ready to blame HAL but we ourselves are not in high tech mass manufacturing. It takes capital and risk, time and consistent investement. Any component missing will lead to a three-legged chair. Has India seen (till recently) mass manufacturing of cars by robots? Airplanes are a different ball game. How easy it is for example to find liquid nitrogen in India? Can you get it from a local machinist in say Chennai? Of course some of you may even come and ask why do I need liquid nitrogen (I just want to do some chemical experiments to show kids how inert it is, compare it with say burning a piece of coal in liquid oxygen)., but the fact remains that one cannot just go down the street (or to the end of a city) to buy it.

Moving from design to mass quality production is a big challenge in itself and is not uncommon. Even americans have that problem. Let us see if HAL is upto it and if not, what is plan B. That is something which should be giving MOD some sleepless nights.

In the meantime for jingoes to do more rona-dhona, do more retching and admire more of khans - here
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-12-11/raytheons-missiles-now-made-by-robots#r=nav-fs

The article is about manufacturing some 30 missiles in a month, by robots.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7385
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby disha » 12 Dec 2012 09:16

NRao wrote:Nice. BUT, these are not the final version. These are meant only for training purposes.....


Do I detect a hint of cynicism or a slide towards rona-dhona?

Anyway, from the article on Naval LCA order:

During a visit to ADA last week, Business Standard was briefed on the naval LCA. In 2003, when development of the naval variant began, ADA believed that the air force version could simply be converted into a naval fighter by strengthening the landing gear, and engineering an arrestor hooks and additional control surfaces. (A naval fighter must undergo far greater impacts while landing on an aircraft carrier deck, in what is often described as a “controlled crash.”)


“In the paper design it looked feasible, similar to what Eurofighter proposed for a navalised Typhoon; or what Gripen proposed for the Sea Gripen. But when we started the detailed design and the actual build… we realized the benefits of what Dassault had done with the Rafale. They designed and built the naval variant first, the Rafale Marine. The air force Rafale is just a subset of Rafale Marine. That is the easiest path,” says Balaji ruefully.


So when India undertook the task of "navalising" LCA., they realized that it will not be a cakewalk. Imagine the mirth in the room when EuroFighter proposed to convert it into a navalised Typhoon. They knew what they were upto and slick presentations would not sway them. And it takes atleast a generation to learn from experience - that is 25 years folks. So please count 2003+25 (2028) to see N-AMCA Mk II design to be undertaken!

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 09:21

Cross posting:

SSridhar wrote:Su-30MKI for Sulur AFB by 2016
A new runway had been completed, a parallel taxi track was getting ready and other infrastructure development were on at Sulur. These would cater for the Su-30 MKI Squadron and also the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) when the squadron was formed. Referring to the delay in the induction of the LCA, the Air Marshal said that the LCA Squadron would be formed either along with the Su-30 MKI Squadron or “probably after that”.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16814
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 12 Dec 2012 09:24

Do I detect a hint of cynicism or a slide towards rona-dhona?


Nope. Just a statement/observation. A data point.

Take it as you wish.

Anand K
BRFite
Posts: 1115
Joined: 19 Aug 2003 11:31
Location: Out.

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Anand K » 12 Dec 2012 10:13

That ol' CNC Machines thingie eh? :(

There are very few precision engineering & machining entities in India. Even here, the entire control & automation hardware and software is based on Siemens or Gildemeister or Mazak. Besides the core metallurgy stream, I guess the root of the problem is the poor home grown electronics industry which makes us reliant on exorbitant and risky foreign tech. (Remember Stuxnet which was tailored towards Siemens family (Simatic, Sinumerik, Simocode etc) which is used *everywhere* from INSAT to INSAS?)

My 2p onlee.

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5834
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Dileep » 12 Dec 2012 11:29

Setting up a production line that is a copy of an existing line is very simple. You don't have to think. You get everything specified. Which variant of which machine with which option package. Even the plant layout, electrical/pneumatic/hydraulic diagram and automation programmes are available.

It is a whole different matter when you want to setup a production setup for something new. I know, I have done BOTH for some electronic stuff that is some ten orders of magnitude simpler than a fighter plane. NO amount of licensed production, or prototype manufacturing would prepare you to setup a volume production system.

The basic problem is, be it IAF or HAL, they take ADA/DRDO as equivalent to the other OEM, like MiG/Sukhoi/BAe/Dassault. HAL might have expected ADA to provide the full design of the production line, while ADA might have expected HAL to take care of production.

I have experience in this "disconnect" as well. A "product designer" almost NEVER thinks about the volume manufacturing. You need the "manufacturing engineer" to do that. I started my working life as the "manufacturing engineer" and later moved to be the "priduct designer".

Tata did the nano plant with the whole lot of expertise of setting up lines in an incremental fashion, from pure licensed production, to some internal design, to full internal design. It can be done, but it takes time, resources, and on top of all, MOTIVATION.

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3665
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 12 Dec 2012 12:02

i am trying to find an article on front line circa 1999 where they talked about how difficult it was for Tata motors to set up a manufacturing line for Indica after the prototypes. This after they had been in manufacturing commercial vehicles for as long as HAL has been in aircraft manufacturing.

I am not supporting ADA or HAL but these things happen just hope and pray that IAF is patient for a little while more

Now if someone misses out planning on spare part supply chain and overhaul for Tejas after production then i wont be happy


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests