LCA News and Discussions

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suryag
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 12 Dec 2012 12:39

Thanjavur and sulur seem to have super black new runways but kayathar hasnt seen any dev until now

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Dec 2012 12:52

I think we take the easy way out blame HAL for it.

As Shiv said our Private sector is way behind the curve in defence related technology and why is that- they are Banned from Defence related policy by GOI and who is repsonsible for it, our political elite.

WHich way we look at it we need to have our Netas accountable from 1983 onwards unable to deliver LCA. They seem to happy bitching about PSU and Indians but not themselves.

I want to turn Pranoy Roy's aurguments that India is ungoveranable and Indians cannot deliver to Indian leaders(includign media which is thier mouthpiece) dont want India to be goveranable and deliver.

J Jayalathitha citied failure to test Agni-II for withdrawing from NDA in 1999. wish the BSP-SP, DMK pull out from UPA citing non delivery of LCA.

the only way I see it coming into future is that it comes in our Pary manifestos thus sealing the fate of arms agents and thier reps like Suresh Kalmadi(and the powers that back him in GOI) who when he was a Parliment sponsored a resolution for killing the LCA project.

As I see it yes we have Tech challanges which are open but hidden are the beuracratic challenges put by the Delhi arms agent lobby which is hidden.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby AbhiJ » 12 Dec 2012 13:36

Will the lesson learnt be actually used in AMCA?

“In the paper design it looked feasible, similar to what Eurofighter proposed for a navalised Typhoon; or what Gripen proposed for the Sea Gripen. But when we started the detailed design and the actual build… we realized the benefits of what Dassault had done with the Rafale. They designed and built the naval variant first, the Rafale Marine. The air force Rafale is just a subset of Rafale Marine. That is the easiest path,” says Balaji ruefully.


Naval LCA

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_20292 » 12 Dec 2012 13:43

^^^ on top of the manufacturing issues, you have a demanding brochuritis driven customer, who wants only the best.

Along with privatization, we should now also allow HAL to sell to other countries. If the IAF doesnt want em...let other folks have them!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby member_20317 » 12 Dec 2012 13:44

disha wrote:So when India undertook the task of "navalising" LCA., they realized that it will not be a cakewalk. <sniped> And it takes atleast a generation to learn from experience - that is 25 years folks. So please count 2003+25 (2028) to see N-AMCA Mk II design to be undertaken!



One thing is getting clearer by the day. Makes sense to have AMCA dedicated to naval needs first and foremost. That can also take care of a lot of resistence offered by the user (IAF), foreigners and politicos. IN can be expected to be serious about AMCA. Catch is even IN will be reticent if Naval LCA belies expectations. If Naval LCA is done to the satisfaction of IN it will enable ADA to take up much bigger challenges and 2028 date need not be the case. But if done wrong then both Naval AMCA & AF AMCA would be in danger.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lilo » 12 Dec 2012 15:15

Aditya_V wrote:I think we take the easy way out blame HAL for it.

As Shiv said our Private sector is way behind the curve in defence related technology and why is that- they are Banned from Defence related policy by GOI and who is repsonsible for it, our political elite.

WHich way we look at it we need to have our Netas accountable from 1983 onwards unable to deliver LCA. They seem to happy bitching about PSU and Indians but not themselves.

I want to turn Pranoy Roy's aurguments that India is ungoveranable and Indians cannot deliver to Indian leaders(includign media which is thier mouthpiece) dont want India to be goveranable and deliver.

J Jayalathitha citied failure to test Agni-II for withdrawing from NDA in 1999. wish the BSP-SP, DMK pull out from UPA citing non delivery of LCA.

the only way I see it coming into future is that it comes in our Pary manifestos thus sealing the fate of arms agents and thier reps like Suresh Kalmadi(and the powers that back him in GOI) who when he was a Parliment sponsored a resolution for killing the LCA project.

As I see it yes we have Tech challanges which are open but hidden are the bureaucratic challenges put by the Delhi arms agent lobby which is hidden.

^^
Aditya ji, agree 100% . We need a nationalistic govt that pursues national imperatives like Tejas with a single minded focus. LCA cannot survive another bout of these Khangress sold outs.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 13 Dec 2012 02:13

May be it is true that nothing they learned with Jaguar, Su, and Mig assembly lines really matters for LCA, as it is entirely a different beast right from composite airframes to various LRUs and integration. Even the assembly line for the gigs will be vastly different owing size and shape. However best, these lines may share a little common tooling platforms and tools. From here on, the private consultants can take on, and assess what production engineering and management is missing. who is doing the risk management/ and PM., etc.

Production line needs to be drawn, and a CPM (critical path method) or CC (chain -most suitable for LCA PM), etc. risk planned ahead and controlled, all these can be off loaded to private industries. They will be good at setting up, given the specifications. Basically, there is lot more for private people to work on the production engineering and product management while HAL can keep thinking on how to use private people participation, GoI rules and security aspects, integration and controls, specifications and inspections, etc. In fact every LRU can be privatized or have private setup shops internally or externally to HAL. HAL is so big to house SEPZ like setup.

If you don't analyze Problem from the mountain top, then it has to be ripped at the feet of "The Problem".

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Hiten » 13 Dec 2012 07:31

.
Last edited by Hiten on 13 Dec 2012 07:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 13 Dec 2012 07:42

Hiten this was discussed in this very thread and IRji had a reply with the appropriate quotes from the EOI letter

indranilroy wrote:
suryag wrote:Where is it IRji?

btw why do we have specification for design and dev of Radome now?

http://www.ada.gov.in/EOI.htm

No 'ji' please.

http://www.hal-india.com/tender_ARDC_tab_New.asp

RFP: D/IMM/COM3/LCA(MK2)/5461/03/13951/2012
RFQ: D/IMM/5461/7R/1069/2012

suryag wrote:btw why do we have specification for design and dev of Radome now?

http://www.ada.gov.in/EOI.htm

On page 4, "ADA is looking for design and development of alternative radome for Light Combat Aircraft as part of their product improvement activity.

They don't want any geometry changes, only improved EM performance. If possible better lightning protection and better smoothness.

Info nugget: IFF dipoles are integrated into the MMR antenna. I used to think that they were the two silvery things above the nose, in front of the cockpit. (like in the F16).

P.S. Corrected formatting :-)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 13 Dec 2012 07:43


suryag
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 13 Dec 2012 07:50

Nrao ji nothing new in the article :(

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Hiten » 13 Dec 2012 07:52

suryag wrote:Hiten this was discussed in this very thread and IRji had a reply with the appropriate quotes from the EOI letter


Oh. Had missed this discussion. Thanks

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lilo » 13 Dec 2012 08:46




Just to draw attention to the ridicule by the gora who compiled the article on Tejas.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Shrinivasan » 13 Dec 2012 10:37

suryag wrote:Thanjavur and sulur seem to have super black new runways but kayathar hasnt seen any dev until now
apart from couple of drive by visits by IAF brass nothing much happened in Kayathar. blessedly the land is still kept free of any encroachments...
There is another WWII era airfied in Ramnad which was in good conditions till the FCI started using these as storage sites.
Last edited by Shrinivasan on 13 Dec 2012 12:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 13 Dec 2012 11:00

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1951 Test Flights Successfully. (07-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-78,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-6,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1953 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-81,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-6,NP1-4)


it should be 1954 not 1953

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Shrinivasan » 13 Dec 2012 12:08

Inching loser to te 2000 sorties mark, does anyone have he figure of flying hours?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby ArmenT » 13 Dec 2012 12:36

^^^
To put things in perspective:
First LCA Flight (TD-1): Jan 4th 2001. Total flight time = 18 minutes
1000th LCA Flight: Jan 23rd 2009. Total flight time = 30 minutes. Exact model used for this flight not known
2000th LCA flight: Perhaps sometime in mid-February, going by existing testing rate.

First 1000 flights = approx. 8 years
Next 1000 flights = approx. 4 years

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Multatuli » 13 Dec 2012 12:38

NRao wrote (page 33)

Then this is a massive failure.

That the realization has come is not the issue, nor is the difficulty posed by the various technologies.

It is the timing of this realization that is the problem. It should have come years ahead. And that is a total lack of management skills.

The fact that the time has come to produce LCAs (IN 2012) and there is no production capability (IN 2012) is the issue.



Yup, this is the whole point. If HAL had started thinking about setting up a production line in earnest some 4 or 5 years ago then the realization would have come much earlier.

Suppose I design a new house, have it built, then I move in, at some point I have to take a leak, then I realise (yes only then!) that there is no toilet!

I am sorry to say this, but this is a failure of Pakistani proportions! We laugh when such things happen in Packeeland but here we have it in India.

This looks like sabotage.

I hope this news report is entirely wrong, I really do.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Viv S » 13 Dec 2012 13:28

disha wrote:So when India undertook the task of "navalising" LCA., they realized that it will not be a cakewalk. Imagine the mirth in the room when EuroFighter proposed to convert it into a navalised Typhoon. They knew what they were upto and slick presentations would not sway them. And it takes atleast a generation to learn from experience - that is 25 years folks. So please count 2003+25 (2028) to see N-AMCA Mk II design to be undertaken!


Its not a hard and fast rule. While the F-4 and Rafale are prominent examples of naval aircraft transitioning to land based roles, there are many more aircraft that have been navalised from an air force variant, like the Supermarine Seafire, Sea Vampire, F-18 Hornet (from YF-17), Sea Harrier, MiG-29K and Su-33.

Point is what may, in hindsight, have been a preferable approach was far from an obvious choice at the time. Even the prioritized induction of the Rafale M was driven by the French Navy's dependence on the obsolete F-8 Crusader for basic air defence (unlike the French Air Force that was equipped in strength with the first rate Mirage 2000) rather than any deep foresight on the MoD/Dassault's part.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 13 Dec 2012 15:11



The article isn't bad but there are some mistakes like about the radar currently on LCA, else the article is to the point.

Dileep wrote:I have experience in this "disconnect" as well. A "product designer" almost NEVER thinks about the volume manufacturing. You need the "manufacturing engineer" to do that. I started my working life as the "manufacturing engineer" and later moved to be the "priduct designer".


According to me this is the ideal way to become a Design engineer, without solid knowledge about production a person cannot become a good design engineer no matter how much talent he possesses. Turning a design into an actual product is much tougher than many people here realise. Designing is a pain in the a$$ but production has the capability to rip that a$$ apart :lol:

Dileep wrote:It is a whole different matter when you want to setup a production setup for something new. I know, I have done BOTH for some electronic stuff that is some ten orders of magnitude simpler than a fighter plane. NO amount of licensed production, or prototype manufacturing would prepare you to setup a volume production system.


It would be nice gaaru if you share your experiences with us.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 13 Dec 2012 15:16

Kanson wrote:If typhoon assembly line can experience problem, why not LCA? Like HAL, they too manufactured many types of aircraft before typhoon. P Subramanyam talks about "serious difficulties" in setting up of production line. Do anyone knows what the problem is? Do Shukla mentions that? So without even scratching the surface why everyone is jumping the gun?


Why miss the golden opportunity of lecturing dirty SDREs and proving that oneself is less brown than the other.
Don't be so naive saar :P

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 13 Dec 2012 18:14

^process: engineering design is different from actual product engineering and which is different from production engineering.
All are three different phases in the life-cycle. why zimbly mux up things.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 13 Dec 2012 19:23

hard hitting article by Ajai shukla

Making the Tejas fly


HAL is the problem with the Tejas. It has little interest in bringing the fighter to production, focusing instead on its own programme, the IJT (pictured here)

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th Dec 12

Ask any of the 20-odd Indian Air Force (IAF) test pilots who have flown the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and they will all swear that it is a great fighter to fly. It handles beautifully, screams along at Mach 1.6 (2000 kilometres per hour) and fires the full range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry. With 2000 test flights under its belt, has already proven that it can fly and fight better than most fighters on the IAF inventory. It is vastly superior to the Mig-21, and is not too far behind the Mirage 2000.

It certainly outclasses the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17 Thunder, a light fighter like the Tejas, which Pakistan pretends to have developed jointly with China, but is actually Chinese through and through. Unlike the Tejas --- a contemporary fighter made of composite materials with an advanced design and sophisticated avionics --- the JF-17 is an outdated design. But the PAF has already inducted 60 of these fighters and will eventually operate 250-300 JF-17s, half its total fleet.

Yet the IAF is cool towards the Tejas. It is desperate for more fighters --- against an assessed requirement of 42 fighter squadrons, the IAF has 34 squadrons today, which will fall to 26 in 2017 if the Rafale is not inducted by then. But the IAF chooses to live with this dangerous shortfall rather than inducting the Tejas more quickly.

Why this indifference towards the Tejas, the alert citizen would ask? She might also have noted a parallel --- the Indian Army sticks with the decrepit, night-blind Russian T-72 tank rather than embracing the far more capable and modern Arjun. The Tejas and the Arjun have a common problem: they are excellent indigenous designs that are undermined by poor production quality.

Just as the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi (HVF), mismanaged by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), causes the army to believe that the Arjun is unreliable; similarly Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a public sector undertaking under the defence ministry (MoD), makes the IAF sceptical about the Tejas.

HAL’s poor production fails to translate the Tejas’ contemporary design into a reliable fighter that takes to the air day after day. Most Tejas problems stem from poor production, not from an inadequate design. But they prevent the fighter from flying, slowing down the flight-test programme and making the IAF believe that the Tejas has serious reliability issues.

None of this gives HAL sleepless nights, since it regards the Tejas as the problem of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the LCA programme. HAL prefers to focus on building foreign aircraft under licence, a mechanical task that it has done for decades with ever-increasing levels of inefficiency. The Sukhoi-30MKI, which was initially bought fully built from Russia for Rs 30 crore per fighter, is now built by HAL (substantially from Russian systems and sub-systems) for well over ten times that figure. Building expensively suits HAL well; since its profits are a percentage of production costs, higher costs mean higher profit.

HAL’s indigenisation is nominal and restricted mainly to low-tech components. High-tech assemblies and sub-assemblies are simply imported from Russia and knocked together expensively into “HAL-built” fighters. Everyone is happy: HAL makes hefty profits; Russia sells lots of Sukhoi-30 kits; and the IAF would much rather rely on Sukhoi-built assemblies than on HAL’s dodgy manufacture.

With so much money flowing in from assembly line manufacture, HAL is ill inclined to engage in the messy business of setting up an assembly line for the indigenous Tejas. For decades, HAL has obtained production drawings, tools and jigs from abroad, most recently from BAE Systems for manufacturing the Hawk trainer. In building an assembly line for the Tejas, HAL will have nobody to pass the buck to. The ad hoc Tejas assembly line, which HAL set up two years ago to build 40 Tejas Mark I fighters by 2017, has not yet produced its first fighter. Now a foreign consultant will teach HAL to do what it has done for decades.

HAL gets away with its disinterest in the Tejas thanks to its cosy relationship with the MoD. Each year the ministry releases a photo of the HAL chairman handing over a large cardboard dividend cheque to the defence minister, as if Antony were being presented the Man of the Match award for some intra-office cricket match. But, in successive photo-releases, Antony appears glummer and that is probably because realisation is dawning that a technology company’s success is measured not in financials, but in technological breakthroughs and user-satisfaction. In those departments, HAL is deep in the red.


HAL must work with ADA to set up the Tejas Mark I assembly line and to churn out the aircraft in numbers. ADA’s eagerness to develop the Tejas Mark II has resulted in the neglect of the Mark I, which is shaping up as an adequate light fighter for the IAF. The MoD must ensure that the Mark I design is stabilised, it is built in numbers, operated by the IAF and user feedback obtained. Only after that should ADA design the Mark II with well-considered enhancements. And HAL must be held to high production standards and low production costs.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 13 Dec 2012 21:49

SaiK wrote:^process: engineering design is different from actual product engineering and which is different from production engineering.
All are three different phases in the life-cycle. why zimbly mux up things.


Didn't get your point explain more please.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 13 Dec 2012 22:30

when you r&d and come up with a design [which basically can range from paper to product itself - like in our case LCA mk-1], you have not made the complete product yet. it goes through various stages and user feedbacks to make up a final product. when you say a product, it has to be usable by the user, hence it becomes a product once user starts using it. right now, lca-mk2 is basically getting to be a product for use. it takes quite a bit of engineering for that to materialize.

once you have the product ready, then it is all about factory setup and production lines. where, number of units per line, schedule, production line controls and setup, tools and jigs for making 20 a/cs per year is different from making LCA product in 2 years at ADA labs or HAL screw driver assembly line.

take a look at what lilo posted for nano production line - be it manual or auto or combined, where one can predict and control the production line. establish dependencies between lines and components, and manage things better in the sense, alright we have enough of LRU2, or component2, let us bump up sub component3 which is critical to get LRU2 integrated.. we need the complete dependency chart and critical chart to know which is dependent on which other.. in these there engineering aspects, where you can say, if we automate this, we can do 20 a/cs per year as against 8 a/cs per year.. and that type of engineering process is when you have no changes in your design or product happening.

so essentially, in production engineering, you maximize and optimize your production process.
in product engineering, you maximize and optimize your design with higher usability for the product.
in design, you come up with various strategies, architecture, components, how various things works together to make up the product the user wants. it can take many stages.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 13 Dec 2012 23:53

Sagar G wrote:
Kanson wrote:If typhoon assembly line can experience problem, why not LCA? Like HAL, they too manufactured many types of aircraft before typhoon. P Subramanyam talks about "serious difficulties" in setting up of production line. Do anyone knows what the problem is? Do Shukla mentions that? So without even scratching the surface why everyone is jumping the gun?


Why miss the golden opportunity of lecturing dirty SDREs and proving that oneself is less brown than the other.
Don't be so naive saar :P


So to remain as brown as I can, I am not supposed to question anything?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 14 Dec 2012 00:59

indranilroy wrote:So to remain as brown as I can, I am not supposed to question anything?


When did I say that people should not question but when did scorn became questioning ???

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagar G » 14 Dec 2012 01:03

SaiK wrote:once you have the product ready, then it is all about factory setup and production lines. where, number of units per line, schedule, production line controls and setup, tools and jigs for making 20 a/cs per year is different from making LCA product in 2 years at ADA labs or HAL screw driver assembly line.


Thank you for explaining saar. What do you think might be the problem with HAL production line of LCA ??? Automation ???

Shukla's article doesn't give any insight into the problem just an outline.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 14 Dec 2012 02:24

Sagar G wrote:
indranilroy wrote:So to remain as brown as I can, I am not supposed to question anything?


When did I say that people should not question but when did scorn became questioning ???

[OT ALERT]
What is a brown man supposed to do when he feels that something is deserving of scorn? Or is he not supposed to feel that way either? Or should he feel scorn only for the white/yellow man's work but not for any brown man's work?
[/OT ALERT]

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Dec 2012 03:52

@IndranilRoy ^^^ Silly fellow. Any criticism of brown/golden/amber man by same is heresy/apostasy/verboten. Criticism = scorn. No peer review, this time the Indians gotta circle the wagons. You anglicized Macaulayite you. Shame! :)

It's all 'itivity'.

@RudraSingha ^^^Careful, the HAL Police have got you in their cross hairs. Vast conspiracy by brown/golden/amber menz and you're on cliff here by saying that it's not the IA/IAF being bought by Melissas/Natashas but the lack of confidence in HAL.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 14 Dec 2012 04:02

Sagar ji, It can't be said anything in abstract about anything unless someone studies it or have inside information. Going by the photographs thus far from the LCA hangar, one can't say anything deep inside.

The more we automate production line, the lesser the human errors are.. but it comes with heavy engineering aspects of setting up and programming for LCA needs. There would not be anything off the shelf they might get, but would need a lot tailoring.. or customizing by the OEM suppliers.

LCA's case may be unique.. or they could reuse many things out there, what they have already established or going to establish for Rafale as well. There must be some common aspects, and only HAL can tell because they should be having the Venn diagram for these info.

this is not even chai wala speak.. but JMT

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby lakshmikanth » 14 Dec 2012 04:05

Cosmo_R :rotfl:

I think a well deserved criticism is fair game. Brown, yellow, blue, black or whatever. However feeling inferior and ashamed is a strict nono according to a
circling-the-wagon Indian here :). I dont know if Indranil ji did that here.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 14 Dec 2012 05:44

Multatuli wrote:

Yup, this is the whole point. If HAL had started thinking about setting up a production line in earnest some 4 or 5 years ago then the realization would have come much earlier.

No one can st up a production line when the design is not finalized and proven up to production standard. The question of production line actually taking off came only after IOC.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 14 Dec 2012 05:58

indranilroy wrote:
[OT ALERT]
What is a brown man supposed to do when he feels that something is deserving of scorn? Or is he not supposed to feel that way either? Or should he feel scorn only for the white/yellow man's work but not for any brown man's work?
[/OT ALERT]

There is a difference between scorn and criticism. If scorn is reserved for one skin color and criticism for another skin color we have something remarkable, and possibly deserving of criticism going on.

Scorn is designed to hurt or insult. Criticism is not necessarily designed that way although it may hurt. Scorn must not be used when mere criticism is necessary. Scorn is for slaves. inferior beings. Criticism is for peers or one's own team. English literature from the 19th century and first half of the 20th century and modern day websites of some nations are full of scorn for Indians in their appearance, capability, diet, odor, accent and culture. More of same from other Indians is unnecessary in my view and deserving of criticism. Criticism is a different ball game
scorn

Noun
The feeling or belief that someone or something is worthless or despicable; contempt.
Verb
Feel or express contempt or derision for.
Synonyms
noun. contempt - disdain - mockery - derision
verb. despise - disdain - contemn - misprize - spurn



criticism
Noun
The expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes: "he ignored the criticisms of his friends".
The analysis and judgment of a literary or artistic work: "methods of criticism supported by literary theories".

Synonyms
critique - censure - review - animadversion

srin
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby srin » 14 Dec 2012 08:53


Aditya_V
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Dec 2012 09:48

I think the headline is misleading, GE along with the US Gov SD had a part to play in the delay with order, saying liabilities if India is involved in a NUke exchange etc.

vina
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby vina » 14 Dec 2012 10:29

No one can st up a production line when the design is not finalized and proven up to production standard. The question of production line actually taking off came only after IOC

Not true. That is the old world style of sequential development and production, which unfortunately is what the LCA and its project management uses.

The modern practice is Concurrent Engineering, where a cross functional team of designers, users, manufacturing folks,maintenance, costing/finance, the entire kitchen sink,work together as a team and all tasks are parallel. I had pointed this out long ago in one of the LCA threads. Stuff like design for manufacturing and maintenance, value engineering etc are all integrated into stuff like Total Quality Management and stuff.

Now with modern PLM tools and integrated design and manufacturing tools (Dassault's CATIA in particular for aerospace, the 777 entire designed on it, and this automatically spits out the NC/CNC machine control codes as well) , this is the way we should have gone.

Rather, we have HAL whining that ADA has not "released" the specs to HAL for manufacture and ADA claiming otherwise and so on. This is another learning that we have out of the LCA. We need to get our project management upto scratch, and possibly invite experienced folks from other manufacturing industries (auto would be a good one) to drive project management and not some glazed old Babu who killed time in HAL pushing files around.

ps: The CATIA wiki page says that the LCA was designed using CATIA v5.. But the spat between ADA and HAL makes me speculate that HAL is probably not fully integrated as an "enterprise" via any PLM tool with ADA and beyond the software, ADA largely works in a silo and there is no real concurrent engineering happening on the ground.

Indranil
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 14 Dec 2012 11:30

Shivji,

Scorn/criticism and all this mumbo jumbo is not what I wanted to dwell in. I believe in objectivity. The spectrum varies from dhoti-shiver to absolute chaplusy. Dhoti-shiver is bad, bad so is the other end where we never question/criticize desi body.

I will tell you my very frank opinion on what lead to this assembly fiasco. I don't believe that HAL did not know that setting up an assembly line would be difficult. They have been building the prototypes for over 10 years now. I think they procrastinated the entire thing and now find themselves scrambling near the deadline. But seriously, when have our DPSUs worried about deadlines. I am sorry to say this, but "kiske baap ka kya jaata hai?"

I am not saying I am hallow-er than HAL employees. But I should be let to express my opinion, without the fear of being branded light brown, brown or dark brown. And for goodness sake, please don't try to prove that somebody is browner just by being on the chaplusy side of the spectrum.

Dileep
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Dileep » 14 Dec 2012 11:44

ADA is a pure 'design house' with no sense of production. I know, because my own brother was on the team initially, and we used to talk a lot about these things those days. I was in manufacturing then, and had to visit Bangalore a lot and stay with him and family.

I know from experience how bad it can be if you leave the design folk unbridled. When I started my working life, the products used to be designed by a design only house who unfortunately looked down at us SDREs in manufacturing engg. It took a lot of time to get a middle ground where they would agree to listen to the manufacturing needs.

I am talking about building trivial things like network hubs (switches were not invented then). It just had a chassis with a backplane, power supply, cable connectors and four plug in cards. It took almost an year (yes one friggin year) to set it up to some level of comfort where we could deliver 50 boxes in a month.

All this with no dearth of money, technical expertise in manufacturing, or motivation. We were a pvt company that is impatient to grow. What missed is the synergy between the design folk and manufacturing folk.

krishnan
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby krishnan » 14 Dec 2012 14:11



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