LCA News and Discussions

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 23 Jan 2013 12:48

disha wrote:If you want to cry, check out the Jaguar story and then do the Rona-dhona (mean in a nice way).

where can i get the jaguar story...

as for Vivekji's scenarios ::::

why do we want to underestimate opponents ability and overestimate our ability... anyways everyone can have there own opinion and it did make a nice read
But i want the LCA Mk.2 quick

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Jan 2013 11:17

HAL gears up for first flight of Tejas LSP-8 | Tyagi says lines decked up for series production

AoA ... Kh2017 = LSP7 is in the grey camo in the far right of the pic. Does the LSP8 look a lot slimmer? or is it just the camera angle

Tarmak to report on features of lsp8 tomorrow

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 24 Jan 2013 11:21

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1981 Test Flights Successfully. (16-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-90,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1985 Test Flights Successfully. (23-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-94,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Jan 2013 11:23

Will LSP-8 make the 2000th flight?

disha · Post by **disha** » 24 Jan 2013 11:26

dhiraj wrote: ...where can i get the jaguar story...

Do check out earlier pages, it is linked somewhere there. In short, Jaguar were inducted first, then their weapons trial conducted and when they were all set, they were sent for Engine and other upgrades. Timeline some 14 years. Add that timeline to 2001 when LCA TD flew and see if LCA Mk2 arrives by then (give some +/- 10% leeway). If so, then HAL/ADA did amazing.

why do we want to underestimate opponents ability and overestimate our ability... anyways everyone can have there own opinion and it did make a nice read

You missed the point, in a plausible scenario - we won the war without LCA. Imagine what 200+ LCAs (mk1 or mk2) would have done?

And again if wishes were horses, bandars will fly.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Jan 2013 19:15

They have to fly guruji otherwise too boring to blast them on ground.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Jan 2013 19:26

Any when if Derby and R-73 will be extensively tested.

There is little or no news of Tejas A to A performance?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Jan 2013 19:32

From Tarmak007, click the link for LSP-8 photo...

HAL gears up for first flight of Tejas LSP-8 | Tyagi says lines decked up for series production

...
Tyagi, who took over the reins of HAL last year, said that LSP-8 would make its maiden flight some time in February. “The aircraft is almost akin to the series production (SP) standard aircraft. We have upgraded the systems to incorporate the feedback from the ground/flight evaluation teams, who dealt with earlier LSP variants,” Tyagi said. It will be the 13th aircraft from the Tejas project flight-line to take to the skies, and along with LSP-7, the IAF pilots should soon begin their much-awaited user evaluation trials.
Two preliminary EGRs of LSP-8 have been completed so far for the first time by HAL personnel and certified by National Flight Test Centre. The aircraft is currently undergoing final system checks, to be followed by further inspections by certifying agencies. “Then we will have final ground runs, leading to low speed taxi trials (LSTT), high speed taxi trials (HSTT) and the actual first flight,” Tyagi said. “My team is really jubilant and we would soon commence the work on series production,” Tyagi added.
...
...

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 24 Jan 2013 20:13

LSP-8 (Tarmak007)

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Jan 2013 21:20

no tail number

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 24 Jan 2013 22:57

MEJ 8152

ME stands for Mysore state. HAL is in Bangalore you see

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2013 01:09

the gray color on the top makes it appear sleek.

are the greys pointing to all sensor areas? the radome is 100% kevlar composite. on the top of the fuselage?

ref: def india forum/ http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1638/lcacut.jpg

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Jan 2013 09:01

Tarmak's update via new indian express

Tejas LSP-8 is a pilot's delight: ADA chief

According to Subramaniam it has pressure-refueling capabilities. Meaning the entire aircraft the LSP-8 can be filled with fuel in just 5-6 minutes as against the 30-minutes taken for gravity filling.

“Tejas LSP-8 is an all-weather, day and night capability fighter and with very maintenance-friendly features. It is an aircraft built based on the needs expressed by test pilots,” he said.

What does gravity filling mean ? Btw 5-6 mins is amazing(may be other fighters also do that) but my car takes atleast 2-3 mins to fill up so amazing in that sense

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2013 09:17

It is a good tech to go for nearing inflight re-fueling anyway will have to be pressure filling.

- technology should ensure the air volume is replaced by the fuel
- may increase optimum use of space, like filling up areas where by gravity would not have have displaced that volume.

for simple understanding, pressure filling could be viewed as fueled from under the wings, whereas gravity from over the wings.

way to go, and inflight refueling probes would be the next thing to happen.

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Jan 2013 10:04

Btw 5-6 mins is amazing(may be other fighters also do that) but my car takes atleast 2-3 mins to fill up so amazing in that sense

Gripen demonstrated that to the IAF I think. A quick turn around of around 10 mins from the moment the plane landed to re-fueling, re-arming and taking off. Had to get some special permission from some sort of babu log to get that done.

This is a key to generate high sortie rates and max use of the fleet in a wartime scenario. You want them up in the air , not sitting on the ground.

I guess it is like Southwest's Slogan for their ops tempo.. "Wheels Up"

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Jan 2013 10:38

Swedes had been interested in this quick turn around capapbility for long. There is a you tube video of a Saab 37 Viggen coming in to land, engaging reverse thrusters, turning 180 degrees and taking off again. All of it in about 1.5 minutes or less and about 500 mtrs of tarmak. 1000 km combat radius of Viggen allowed the imaginative and aggressive strategizing around this capability.

This is a great capability to have on an LCA. What if IAF decides to have an LCA variant with Tornado like buckets to achieve something of this sort, solely meant for strike roles even if with just 2 tons of bomb load. BRO can prepare several 500 mtr stretches of Tarmak in the Himalayas.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Jan 2013 11:09

This pressure refueling is a damn useful feature- it actually increases usable fuel on board an aircraft as compared to gravity fueling, depending on the location of the fuel port. if the fuel port is not at the very highest point of the wing, some portion of the internal fuel tanks' volume is not fully utilized when using gravity fueling. That of course is done to prevent a situation where the gravity fueling causes the entire fuel tank to fill up and causes a spill.

For a tiny fighter that already has good range and endurance, this will only make the legs longer by allowing more fuel to be loaded onto internal fuel tanks in addition to the advantage of being able to refuel much faster allowing shorter turn-around times.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Jan 2013 11:20

Could hear the sustained roar of a jet engine @ about 9AM. And in bursts. Wonder if they were doing Ground/Taxi trials for the LSP-8.

I stay 4 kms from the HAL airport.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 25 Jan 2013 15:18

suryag wrote:Tarmak's update via new indian express

Tejas LSP-8 is a pilot's delight: ADA chief
..

This is perhaps a technological breakthrough in modern Indian aviation, as well as a technological achievement in general.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Jan 2013 15:56

Unless the OBOGS is working as hoped, the LCA will remain constrained in maximum flight duration.

DNA:IAF fighters to have on-board oxygen generation system
Published: Sunday, Apr 10, 2011, 17:28 IST

"Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has started the ground integration process of OBOGS in the Technology Demonstrator (TD) version of the LCA Mark-II. After LCA it will be integrated in all the frontline aircraft of the IAF," W Selvamurthy, chief controller, Life Science, DRDO, said.

Nevertheless, quicker refuelling would of course improve the sortie rate, which would help LCA earn the workhorse title. Feels good.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jan 2013 16:08

PratikDas wrote:Unless the OBOGS is working as hoped, the LCA will remain constrained in maximum flight duration.

Can LCA fly without OBOGS, does it have features like other fighters to carry Oxygen tanks separate for this. Then why have OBOGS, it is supposed to remove the restriction of Oxygen and save weight of carryign those tanks.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Jan 2013 16:13

Aditya ji, some BR guru speculated (or knew) that the reason for most LCA flights lasting around 45 minutes might have something to do with the oxygen supply. Feeling a bit lazy to search for it. Anyway, the DNA article above does show that the OBOGS or a better version of it comes with LCA Mk II.

Who knows, perhaps it has been brought forward to the first generation!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Jan 2013 16:19

But LCA flew non stop to from Bengaluru to Jamnaga, surely those flight would have been more than 45 mins.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Jan 2013 16:24

Does the pilot need bottled oxygen even in leisurely subsonic velocities at reasonable altitudes?

I mean On board oxygen generation is about limitless oxygen or is it about weight savings?

gnair · Post by **gnair** » 25 Jan 2013 19:26

Fly up to about 12,000 feet or less and you can manage without O2 for the duration of your fuel on-board. But it's not practical, since you'd want to cruise at 40,000 ft.> to your target/destination.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Jan 2013 20:07

OBOGS is very critical to mission ops.. It is very easy to choke the pilot. So, it is highly safety critical aspect of fighter jets. Remember raptor failures...caused by carbon monoxides.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 25 Jan 2013 20:16

SaiK wrote:OBOGS is very critical to mission ops.. It is very easy to choke the pilot. So, it is highly safety critical aspect of fighter jets. Remember raptor failures...caused by carbon monoxides.

I think they are still unable to fix that problem in Raptors. So yes considering the raptor problem..it looks very critical aspect of an aircraft.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 25 Jan 2013 21:13

Considering the fact that none of the IAF aircraft today have OBOGS, I think we can all agree that while this is nice to have in Mk-II, it is not a show stopper

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2013 21:19

SagarAg wrote:
SaiK wrote:OBOGS is very critical to mission ops.. It is very easy to choke the pilot. So, it is highly safety critical aspect of fighter jets. Remember raptor failures...caused by carbon monoxides.
I think they are still unable to fix that problem in Raptors. So yes considering the raptor problem..it looks very critical aspect of an aircraft.

Not a fact.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Jan 2013 22:50

putnanja wrote:Considering the fact that none of the IAF aircraft today have OBOGS, I think we can all agree that while this is nice to have in Mk-II, it is not a show stopper

Great point. I was only addressing the depiction of pressured refueling as the threshold to maximum flight duration.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jan 2013 00:46

indranilroy wrote:Not a fact.

Well USAF and investigation board says about the pilot error post OBOGS failure and all about what the pilot should have done, given enough oxygen for him to take corrective action. That is besides the point of failure.

But, how can the investigative board be so general in the specifications and O2 level reactions of the individual pilot, in whose case be specific and different. They will hide any fact that spoils a multi-billion investment, given the fact it is arguing about the system rather operations.

They are learning too.. btw, what they say and what they do, is not entirely true. They are the USAF.

--

question/lesson: what is the OBOG's backup/fail over?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jan 2013 03:29

How does the MKI achieve its touted 11 hour endurance (with IFR) without OBOGS or a similar system? Just because of having more space to carry oxygen?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jan 2013 04:18

I was just think the OBOGS has to eliminate nitrogen (near 80%) from the atmospheric air. that means, the nitrogen separated could be directly released on the engine exhaust system to reduce IR signature, and become more stealthy. I am sure, our folks would have thought something similar to this.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Jan 2013 04:24

At steady state, the rate of nitrogen expelled by the OBOGs system will be 4 times the rate of oxygen consumption of human breathing. It is negligible compared to the rate of exhaust of a 90 kN jet engine.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jan 2013 04:25

point., and what was i thinking.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Jan 2013 11:03

Tarmak update on ADA's display at AI'13

14. The Tejas development programme which is in the advanced stage has completed Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) requirements and continuing system performance towards reaching Final Operations Clearance (FOC).
a) Tejas has completed 1986 flawless flight trials till date:
b) Cold Weather & High Altitude Trials at Leh and Pathankot
c) Hot Weather & Weapon Trials in the Desert Terrains of Jaisalmer & Uttharlai.
d) LCA will be participating for the first time in the “Air Power Demonstration” called “Iron Fist”. There, it will demonstrate the Capability of Swing Role in weapon delivery, performing both Air to Air and Air to Ground operations. e) Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed production order on HAL for 40 LCAs and production activity is under progress.

As usual Gurus please throw light on the bolded parts above for mango abduls like me(what is swing role?) encouraging part is that they would ahve already cleared the A2A dev to demonstrate in an exercise

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 26 Jan 2013 11:12

suryag wrote:Tarmak update on ADA's display at AI'13

14. The Tejas development programme which is in the advanced stage has completed Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) requirements and continuing system performance towards reaching Final Operations Clearance (FOC).
a) Tejas has completed 1986 flawless flight trials till date:
b) Cold Weather & High Altitude Trials at Leh and Pathankot
c) Hot Weather & Weapon Trials in the Desert Terrains of Jaisalmer & Uttharlai.
d) LCA will be participating for the first time in the “Air Power Demonstration” called “Iron Fist”. There, it will demonstrate the Capability of Swing Role in weapon delivery, performing both Air to Air and Air to Ground operations. e) Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed production order on HAL for 40 LCAs and production activity is under progress.
As usual Gurus please throw light on the bolded parts above for mango abduls like me(what is swing role?) encouraging part is that they would ahve already cleared the A2A dev to demonstrate in an exercise

SuryaG,

Swing role is defined as a multi-role a/c which can do A2A and A2G in the same mission or at short notice, thus reducing cost, adding to tactical and operational flexibility

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Jan 2013 11:19

Thanks Rajanb ji, so if they are displaying that it means they would have validated them in field that makes it our SDRE M2K. HAL better pull up its socks and focus on productionising in earnest, we have frittered too many good starts over the past 65 years. May be time for ADA to start involving desi companies on a subsystem level and create SDRE equivalents of General Dynamics and Raytheons(am not fixated by Khan companies but no other names are coming to mind)

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 Jan 2013 13:47

There has not been much news on LCA's A To A tests apart from 1 or 2 r-73 firings for separation tests. So more news on AtoA will be welcome.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 26 Jan 2013 22:15

SaiK wrote:question/lesson: what is the OBOG's backup/fail over?

An oxygen supply tank, here is a pic on Tarmak007. The BOS on left side probably stands for "Backup Oxygen Supply/System" and the EOS that can be seen on right side is "Emergency Oxygen System" about which from tech focus feb 2011 pg. 10

Emergency Oxygen System

On ejection or normal system failure, the low pressure in the supply line will automatically permit the supply of emergency oxygen from a pressurized bottle mounted on the pilot's seat to the oxygen regulator. An NRV prevents the supply of emergency oxygen to the anti 'g' valve in these conditions.

First I thought that EOS alone acts as the backup supply but then after seeing the pic I now think that both of them act as backup supply in case of OBOGS failure. I recall seeing a poster or reading details of this system but can't find any of that now