LCA News and Discussions

[SaiK]

Fow WVR combats, another useful tech is the maturity of MAWS and especially the ones like Ef2K's DASS.. the toed decoy concept is extremely useful, and nice to have for LCA... we have to deal with a 5-10:1 combats with bandars and aged cheddar 16s. I can understand the need for higher g-turns and upper thrust engines for this purpose alone... avoid, become safe, lock on and revert the strike. a reverse mission should end in less than a minute from the time of MAWS detection.

detection<->deploy decoy<become safe and lock on><fire!>

[vic]

There was some news that India was looking at DIRCM systems. Is there any further update on it?

[suryag]

So really the " basic air to air" capability is well demonstrated here, and with high off boresight missiles like the r-73 and Python 5 , sustained turn rates to manoeuvre and get at the opponent's six o clock is not crucial like it was until the mid 90s.

I think flying quality of an aircraft ( STR,ITR,Speed etc ) would still give an aircraft an edge if it is faced with an enemy that has similar performance missile with HOBS capability , so nose pointing is not needed in this era of high off bore shots but if you have an aircraft with superior flying quality it would give the pilot an edge all things being equal. Obviously you never know you might end up with classic gun fight

Flying quality would also comes into play if you have a missile up your tail and with a good EW/CMDS and little pray to save your day.

So we should buy Mig35

[RoyG]

HMCS coupled with the r-73 will def give the Tejas an advantage in a dogfight. Throw in an Israeli/Indian jamming pod like the Bison and they won't know what hit them. The aircraft is already so small. When the LCA MK-II comes out it will be able to pull sharper maneuvers at greater speeds to bring the Green and Yellow bandits into view and make the system even deadlier.

On another note, I'm wondering if there are plans to remove the 23mm gun from below the right intake and place a single barrel 27/30 mm revolver cannon like 791b which will be coming with the Rafale somewhere on the side of the plane. That way you get a more powerful gun and you may add one more hardpoint.

[Austin]

So we should buy Mig35

Or Typhoon

[SaiK]

So we should buy Mig35

Or Typhoon

You can buy both, but not in this thread!

Actually, think about building technology.. while buying systems with sub-component technology transfer - that feedback into mainline local aerospace industry. We have built enough screw drivers and martinis... and we need to move more on to growing more homegrown vineyard products.

[suryag]

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2136 Test Flights Successfully. (25-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-261,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-166,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-2)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2139 Test Flights Successfully. (27-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-364,LSP1-74,LSP2-262,PV5-36,LSP3-123,LSP4-72,LSP5-166,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-2)

[Philip]

VAYU is not a mag known for flippant articles.There is one on the LCA,"LCA-still a pie in the sky?"

Those with access to it please read it.There are some serious allegations about the state of the project.There is a quote from Air Cmde Muthana that "management" has been the primary problem with the project.Some of the allegations:

HAL produces airframes with differing quality control,the aircraft flying still resemble "lab prototypes",not production models.The LSPs are actually "handbuilt" and not production models.No clear maintenance manuals,design drawings,etc., that are needed for easy support by the end user for "average airmen", are absent.The task of developing simulators and a trainer aircraft has been neglected when the type is nearing IOC.An allegation is that design drawings have not been firmed into production drawings,series production handled indifferently,and that even if the aircraft is inducted soon,it will be some time before series production can take place.These are a few points.They should be dissected for verification wherever possible so that a clearer picture of the state of the project is available.

PS:Please don't shoot the messenger,VAYU that is!

[Indranil]

VAYU is not a mag known for flippant articles.There is one on the LCA,"LCA-still a pie in the sky?"

As much as I would have liked to rebuff this article, it is actually true.
1. LSPs have continued to be lab prototypes. I had expected that till LSP-5. But even LSP-8 has turned out that way! HAL is still setting up an assembly line!
2. They were trying to hire people for the documentation a few months back. So that is a silver lining.
3. The trainer has clearly been neglected. It has not flown for the last year (or two). It is a great LIFT, I don't know why it is being neglected.

The only part, where I am confused is that of the simulator. If W.Cmdr. R. Kothiyal is to be believed, the simulator is very close to the real thing. I think a few of the ASTE pilots have said similar things. ADE keeps advertising the simulators.

[vic]

You do not give major orders for LCA or money to set up production line, Now we lament that production line is not established.

[Surya]

Vayu is just a messenger??

I assume its ad free??

I assume people who own it have never been agents for any other agency??

???

[NRao]

For one reason or another the model has been inadequate - both for the LCA and Kaveri. There is much to be desired.

However, even with all the warts, these machines are not that much of a waste of time - some granted.

[negi]

I know it's a much maligned term but then that's actually the way we roll; whether we like it or not our programmes are going to proceed at a Hindu rate onlee. HAL is the DEFAULT place for all things aero in India and as long as it remains so little is going to change. We are neither blessed with the immense intellectual+financial muscle power of the West to make it an all private affair where there are often 2 or more parties which vie for such tenders and only the fittest survive nor we have a centralized system like the erstwhile SU or even current one in Cheen where there is a firm hand at the wheel and things get done pretty fast. We are basically a tri-shanku state and have chosen the so called middle path and it applies to our MIC too; having said that we will get there it's just that it will take some more time.

[sankum]

HAL CONNECT gives the production rate of LCA @16/year upto 2025 for 188 nos order.

IAF can be expected to get lca @ 10/year upto 2025 for 40 mk1+ 83mk2=123 lca's i.e, 6sq.

IN will get @6/year upto 2025 for 9mk1+46mk2=55 lca's.

This shows the low expectation from lca by the IAF.

[Austin]

Even if they can achieve those production figures it would be impressive , HAL goal to make 16 MKI in compressed time line is yet to be achieved , HAL gave many impressive figures to start with to build MKI in India but they could not achieve it ....this is inspite of CKD/SKD and decades of lic production , so 16 for Tejas is great if they can achieve it.

[Indranil]

You do not give major orders for LCA or money to set up production line, Now we lament that production line is not established.

There cannot be less lack of sight here. LCA is clearly needed in large numbers. Even IAF has acknowledged this. IF Mk1 is truely virtuous, then orders will come. If Tejas Mk1 was a wonderfully built machine, many a short coming will be overlooked. On the other hand, no matter how virtuous the plane is, if it is built horribly or if maintenance is difficult, no more orders will come.

Unfortunately on BR (and this my only opinion), there are some of us who just can't see anything wrong with our production agency. Even when they (DPSUs) don't man up to elementary things (it is not like they don't know this). Every short coming is blamed on the forces.

[Philip]

The VAYU article was presented at the Aero-India Seminar, "Challenges in Design to Development,Critical lessons from the D&D LCA",by Air Cmde. Muthana,who was Project Dir. of the ADA's NFTC.

Here is a very interesting observation.The initial ASR for the LCA was a "beautifully crafted" statement,which "restricted itself only to performance requirements,a practice adopted by the west a decade later",(no idea if that is true).
He lamented that the "process of applying the ASR to Design and Development was fatally flawed." If two diff. design houses,ADA and HAL with diff. styles of management and mandate worked on a single design,there would be a "price to pay".Who is ultimately responsible for the project throughout its lifetime? The Q is still unanswered.

Amazingly he says,"no aviators were part of the design team...",leading to situations where scientists were more interested in getting indigenous technologies integrated ,"at the expense of designing a maintainable and deployable platform".He alleges that the IAF,"the only comprehensive repository of aviation knowledge in the nation,was either not consulted or ignored during the critical part of the LCA programme.." This bears out what I have earlier posted ,quoting a former VCoAS who was repeatedly selected and kept out as project head by babudom.It was only in 2006,after reluctantly placing an order,that the IAF got involved in the programme,which has resulted in it "flagging" hundreds of issues that has led to the "betterment" of the aircraft,but has also resulted in extra costs and delayed schedules.

From this little window into the project,there does appear to be a disconnect between our DRDO/PSUs and the services,on many key projects,in varying dimensions.Arjun immediately comes to mind and so does the IAF's apathy with HAL regarding the yet to be developed HAL basic trainer,which the air chief does not want at all,the delayed IJT,and now the shelving of the AMCA-that possibly the wisest thing in the current circumstances,so that every effort and focus is aimed at succeeding with the LCA.There is no Q now,the LCA has to succeed and the GOI/MOD must be ruthless with failure ,just as is done in other nations.From now on accountability has to be part of any award to a PSU for a defence item.The costs incurred for defence indigenisation are astronomical.A fraction saved of the taxpayer's money would for instance benefit our poor drought stricken farming community.

[arnab]

Amazingly he says,"no aviators were part of the design team...",leading to situations where scientists were more interested in getting indigenous technologies integrated ,"at the expense of designing a maintainable and deployable platform".He alleges that the IAF,"the only comprehensive repository of aviation knowledge in the nation,was either not consulted or ignored during the critical part of the LCA programme.."

Actually that is not what he said. His words were:

The Indian Air Force is the only repository of comprehensive military aviation knowledge in this country. Either its expertise was not sought or it was denied. Also we probably have the only aviation companies in the world that do not have aviators embedded into design teams.

You are shifting the blame completely to HAL.

[maitya]

...
The costs incurred for defence indigenisation are astronomical.A fraction saved of the taxpayer's money would for instance benefit our poor drought stricken farming community.

What kind of post is this Philip-ji, may I ask?

How is the cost incurred for defence indigenisation is more (or less) astronomical than, say, the FGFA (or for that matter the rust-bucket Groshkov etc) acquisition?
Wouldn't the very same "poor drought stricken farming community" not have benefitted by the very same taxpayer's money had these acquisitions from Russia were not taking place, directly bank-rolling the Russian def-mil industrial infrastructure.

Pls let us know.
<<rest edited out>>

[Neshant]

Hard to believe it could be more expensive when most of the development & production costs is being spent in India - which itself is of great benefit to many areas of industry & personel.

The future of the military & civilian aerospace industry rides on the success of the LCA - if nothing else than for national credibility.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>You are shifting the blame completely to HAL.

Sorry, but it is true that LCA was conceived as a platform to give the aeronautical sector in India a giant leap with mastering of technology in various critical sectors like engine, FCS, radar etc as focus point. It was conceived by scientist and the IAF was asked to come in with ASR. And even then, IAF had pointed out, rightly, that we will not be able to meet the deadlines for what we have set out as we lacked the industrial base.

[Misraji]

Hard to believe it could be more expensive when most of the development & production costs is being spent in India - which itself is of great benefit to many areas of industry & personel.

To play the Devil's advocate, an irrational emphasis on development of national capabilities vis-a-vis the current technological base might also mean money changing hands within the country without any result.

By playing on this national tech-development fervor, a few might be tempted to line their pockets.
What we would have then are years of "development" while critical systems are withheld from the armed forces in the name of indigenization.
Or scams like the Tatra.

Thus the phrase "money remains within the country" would not be an ideal situation then.
Just saying the above to maintain an objective and balanced point of view.

--Ashish

PS: However as far as the Rodina/Rodina-lovers go, I have had it with their antics.
Corruption within country is better than their tall talk, back-stabbing that has been stifling many a project.

[PratikDas]

But critical imported systems are withheld from the Armed Forces due to various scams and investigations anyway. Artillery is only one example of that.

So I don't see how Misraji--Ashish's view is balanced.

[Philip]

I stand by what I've posted.It is in para 2 on pg. 84.Members may have missed the quote.I repeat:

"In addition to the management and technical issues that have dogged the LCA programme,Air Cmde. Muthana bemoaned the fact that no aviators were part of the design team"

On the same page he goes on to say that the "late entry of the IAF led to delays in the avionics package.."

Maitya.whether it is an indigenous programme or firang,waste is waste.I am not defending any foreign contract whether it is Russian or American.The diff. is that with a foreign project/system,delays.etc., can invoke penalties if the contract is properly framed and vetted for delays and non-performance.In the case of late delivery/system problems with the first Talwars from Russia,a penalty was invoked,where one report says that the warranty period on the ships/AMC was reportedly extended,commensurate probably for the period of delay.With our PSUs,there is no penalty or accountability whatsoever,which is why ACM Browne has openly asked for penalties for our PSUs for delays /substandard performance.

[Misraji]

But critical imported systems are withheld from the Armed Forces due to various scams and investigations anyway. Artillery is only one example of that.So I don't see how Misraji--Ashish's view is balanced.

True. I don't deny that.
I only wanted to point out that there are downsides to the phrase "money remains within the country".
That phrase has to be used with care and on a case-by-case basis, not for mere chest-thumping.

Thus if somebody comes up with a plan to develop 40-ton, 3-man crew with protection levels of Abrams and a laser gun in 2 years, we know that "money remains within the country" is not a good idea.
That money may be better spent, say, in getting snow-boots for soldiers in Siachen, equipment that is too specialized to be made economically within the country.

--Ashish

[Indranil]

Well, it has been a learning curve for management and cooperation as well. Whether the lessons learnt are put to use for LCA Mk2 and AMCA remains to be seen.

[Surya]

Do we know what the IAF pays for a Dhruv vs what Ecuador pays??

[putnanja]

I stand by what I've posted.It is in para 2 on pg. 84.Members may have missed the quote.I repeat:

"In addition to the management and technical issues that have dogged the LCA programme,Air Cmde. Muthana bemoaned the fact that no aviators were part of the design team"

On the same page he goes on to say that the "late entry of the IAF led to delays in the avionics package.."

Maitya.whether it is an indigenous programme or firang,waste is waste.I am not defending any foreign contract whether it is Russian or American.The diff. is that with a foreign project/system,delays.etc., can invoke penalties if the contract is properly framed and vetted for delays and non-performance.In the case of late delivery/system problems with the first Talwars from Russia,a penalty was invoked,where one report says that the warranty period on the ships/AMC was reportedly extended,commensurate probably for the period of delay.With our PSUs,there is no penalty or accountability whatsoever,which is why ACM Browne has openly asked for penalties for our PSUs for delays /substandard performance.

As per the bolded parts (and also per other accounts), it is clear that the IAF deliberately didn't want to be part of the LCA initially as they didn't think it would come to fruition. It was only after the two prototypes were developed that they made a belated entry. If the IAF had been involved from day 1 in driving the user requirements, maybe some of the issues could have been avoided as they would be part of initial design itself.

[Surya]

"In addition to the management and technical issues that have dogged the LCA programme,Air Cmde. Muthana bemoaned the fact that no aviators were part of the design team"

Well all fine and dandy but it would be good if he all said in the same breath how the IAF killed the marut follow on and causing the dearth of knowledge which had to be relearnt

[NRao]

If the IAF is such a repository of knowledge, wonder what has prevented them from spearheading efforts to design + build an Indian plane? Not too late unless they are waiting for an invite based on the temperature, moisture and sunshine outside.

[pentaiah]

The Chinese intruded into Ladakh because their intelligence reported that if LCA is inducted PRC cant beat India in war.
Meanwhile MMS is asking HAL and all others to expedite carefully with out ruffling the Chinese feathers, a insider told my fiend who by profession is Lipton Layoji dealer

[Philip]

Putnanjah,the IAF did want to be part of the project,but when it was proposed and a fine AM allegedly selected,time and time again,year after year by various committees,including a final one with the PM, to head the project,babudom repeatedy shot him down.He also warned APJAK that the claims by various agencies,like the GTRE reg. the arrival were bogus.Taken in by these tall claims APJAK made his famous statement ,posted earlier,that "200 LCAs would be inducted between 2003-2010"!

Anyway,the charade is now over.The areas of concern are better known now.The DM,AKA and air chief ACM NB have made their firm statements that no future delay will be tolerated,penalties should be levied,etc.It is why the AMCA has been shelved and the focus is "all hands to the pump" in meeting the new LCA IOC/FOC schedules and get the bird into series production.The worry is how long we can extend the life of planned upgrades of existing aircraft until enough numbers of LCAs,MMRCAs,Flankers,etc. can replace them in full number and more,to meet the fast emerging challenges from the Sino-Pak axis of evil.

PS:My paanwallah says that the Chinese plan to pour cold water on the hot issue using their newly developed amphibian.

[Sanku]

If the IAF is such a repository of knowledge, wonder what has prevented them from spearheading efforts to design + build an Indian plane? Not too late unless they are waiting for an invite based on the temperature, moisture and sunshine outside.

The civilians in MoD, DRDO and DPSUs

A number of them are loath to give away their massive fiefdoms to the chowkidaars, a number of them are terrified at the prospect of service discipline at work, a number of them are terrified at the concept of having to work, and a number of them have all the above three applicable to them.

[Sanku]

The Chinese intruded into Ladakh because their intelligence reported that if LCA is inducted PRC cant beat India in war.
Meanwhile MMS is asking HAL and all others to expedite carefully with out ruffling the Chinese feathers, a insider told my fiend who by profession is Lipton Layoji dealer

[Indranil]

If the IAF is such a repository of knowledge, wonder what has prevented them from spearheading efforts to design + build an Indian plane? Not too late unless they are waiting for an invite based on the temperature, moisture and sunshine outside.

Well IAf is the only body in India who has any operational knowledge of fighter aircraft. Why shouldn't we get them in the loop. In fact not getting them in the loop is a colossal waste! Even, Messerschmitt listened to the IAF test pilot (Gp Capt Kapil Bhargava (Retd)) over his poo-pooing sub-ordinates for the HA-300.
Messerschmitt's HA-300 And Its Indian Connection

My most memorable encounter with Prof. Messerschmitt soon followed this conclusion. One day I was told that the Professor wanted me in his conference room. On entering it, I saw that it was laid out like a kangaroo court. At the head of some long tables was Prof. Messerschmitt with an interpreter beside him. Senior Germans were seated on one side, with their Egyptian counterparts opposite them. The bottom end had one seat for me, the accused. Prof. Messerschmitt asked me through his interpreter why I was so insistent on the modifications, which I had claimed were essential to ensure safety. By then I was quite angry and replied that I was not really interested in the mods. They were my conditions to fly the aircraft. Otherwise, another test pilot could be hired and I would happily go back home to India.

There were many German red faces on hearing this answer. The word ultimatum buzzed around between them. People did not issue an ultimatum to Prof. Messerschmitt. However, he calmed his team down and told me that while he might agree to make the changes, he wanted to know why I was so adamant to have them done. Still boiling mad, I said that a technical lecture was necessary and I would proceed to give it if he really wanted it. He quietly agreed to listen.

I reminded Prof. Messerschmitt that the contract for the aircraft specified the design to conform to the British Air Publication-970 requirements, which laid down the design criteria for military aircraft. The nineteen points listed by me were all in serious breach of the AP. A few of them were so obvious that it was a wonder that the design team did not anticipate them. For example, the integral fuel tanks had leaked and flexible rubber tanks were inserted in them. Some of these had also leaked. Yet, the only indication for fuel contents was a totaliser gauge showing the fuel entering the engine. The pilot would know that all fuel had leaked out only after his engine cut. The fuel system had apparently been designed with a preoccupation for unlimited inverted flying. Firstly, there was no requirement for such a facility and, secondly, the Orpheus engine’s oil system would, in any case, have limited the maximum duration of inverted flight to about 10 seconds. The direct supply tank to the engine was the smallest in the system and any failure of air transfer pressure would produce a flameout within two minutes. The tail plane trim was operated by a single-pole switch on the stick carrying the entire current of the large motor, without any protection against a trim run away. Rudder flutter was forecast at 0.56 M. Yet, its damper was powered by a single hydraulic system. Other design deficiencies, too many to list here, were also dangerous and unacceptable to me as a qualified test pilot.

Prof. Messerschmitt did not take long to realise that I was right in my concern for the aircraft’s safety. It takes a really great man to admit that he is wrong. The Professor got up from his chair and shook my hand. He said that he had not realised how far his team had fallen back in design expertise. He assured me that all required actions would be taken and he would instruct his staff to follow my directions. It took just six months after this meeting for me to declare the aircraft ready for flight.

[Indranil]

Putnanjah,the IAF did want to be part of the project,but when it was proposed and a fine AM allegedly selected,time and time again,year after year by various committees,including a final one with the PM, to head the project,babudom repeatedy shot him down.He also warned APJAK that the claims by various agencies,like the GTRE reg. the arrival were bogus.Taken in by these tall claims APJAK made his famous statement ,posted earlier,that "200 LCAs would be inducted between 2003-2010"!

But Philip sir,

Don't you find IAF's approach flippant as well. Make me the leader of the project, or else I am out. Where is the part of cooperating towards a national goal which directly benefits the IAF!

[Austin]

Generally Airforces around the world lead the project , lay specs , monitor its progress etc scientific , R&D and Industry help the airforce meet the desired goal .. but it is for the MOD to sort these issues out since all the organisation boss report to MOD.

[Sanku]

Don't you find IAF's approach flippant as well. Make me the leader of the project, or else I am out. Where is the part of cooperating towards a national goal which directly benefits the IAF!

There has to be a owner, all this cooperation etc is fine and dandy, but having an empowered owner is critical.

Right no no project is anyone's baby, DRDO, DPSUs, MoD and Services all merrily pass around the buck. The services most of all understand the concept of ownership and leadership for success (basic point of armed forces culture) and are loath to take responsibilities with the chai-biskoot approach so favored in the MoD.

[Indranil]

Don't you find IAF's approach flippant as well. Make me the leader of the project, or else I am out. Where is the part of cooperating towards a national goal which directly benefits the IAF!

There has to be a owner, all this cooperation etc is fine and dandy, but having an empowered owner is critical.

I agree, there needs to be ownership. And there has to be something on the line and I don't mean it negatively, rewards can be on the line.

Right no no project is anyone's baby, DRDO, DPSUs, MoD and Services all merrily pass around the buck. The services most of all understand the concept of ownership and leadership for success (basic point of armed forces culture) and are loath to take responsibilities with the chai-biskoot approach so favored in the MoD.

Well the men in uniform are also men, so the vices permeate everywhere. In the same time that an MMRCA was selected, LCA completed it's entire flight testing and completed the design and may be fabrication of the next generation. And especially of late more often than not, corruption and politics has foreshadowed the ownership and leadership for success.

[NRao]

I do not think these Problems are unique to India, other nations have them too. Perhaps Indian situation is more severe. But there has got to be a handful of gOod guys that band together to make things happen.