LCA News and Discussions

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby GeorgeWelch » 23 Aug 2013 04:04

PratikDas wrote:Strangely, most of the F-35's customers are sticking to the money-pit.


Again I ask, Is that the model you want to follow?

For all that this forum rails against doing something just because 'Khan' does it that way, you seem bound and determined to follow one of its more dubious paths.

PratikDas wrote:The LCA is an essential project for India in much the same way that the Manhattan Project cost nearly US$2 billion (about $26 billion in 2013 dollars). It isn't like there was any certainty of the Manhattan Project culminating in what it did. It was simply imperative.


It was only imperative because of the utility of what it offered.

If after investing all that money, scientists realized that they had made a critical mistake and an atomic bomb could never work, then its utility goes to zero and the funding is withdrawn.

Similarly if it's determined that the LCA doesn't meet India's needs, then it's utility is diminished and funding would be withdrawn.

And life would go on and a new project would be started.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 Aug 2013 04:10

PratikDas wrote:Forget 600 years from now. We already have "patriots" on BR calling the LCA a science experiment that needs to be put to rest so the IAF is not distracted from getting on with the business of defending the nation with shiny imported stuff, let alone those who represent the manufacturers of the shiny stuff or their countries.

Hypothetically speaking, there is a very real possibility of Indian decision makers, i.e. babus and mantris, being conditioned to expect failure if the LCA were to add to the "failure" experience after the Marut. This cannot be allowed to happen, at any cost.

And the LCA will be a success.


Aap ke muh mein ghee shakkar!

I marvel at those IAF pilots who went to fight pakistan's f-86 sabres (f 22s of that period?) and came back vijayee ! 8)

With Bholenath's blessings Tejas is going wipe floor with all these 4 & 5 generation 'effs' one day.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 Aug 2013 04:29

PratikDas wrote:
Ajatshatru wrote:^^^^
Not sure exactly where this "we" is coming from, as this may be entirely your perspective....

Agreed.


This "we" includes

The f-18 or f 35 + other ungle sam stuff lovers.

The people to whom it doesn't matter how today Tejas is delayed because DRDO wanted F 414 engine but americans refused and allowed only f 404 engine.

The people to whom it doesn't matter how our LCA scientists were kicked out of US lab at the time of pokharan, even their own stuff brought from Bharatvarsh was confiscated. How today Tejas is delayed because of *%&$$*& amricans.

The people who don't care if we had to forgo certain equipment because of EULA - EUMA $hit even on c 17, c 130, p-8s.

The "we" stands for those who don't care about sanctions when some future PM decides to test the new advanced warheads in pokharan or do 414 open air tests over porkiland.

Some of these "we" make short cryptic statements that US and Bharat's interests are interwoven in 2025 or 2040, and some are plain US fanbois.

So don't worry great country you have 600 years to develop another jet, in fact why not 6000 OR enternity for the matter. In the meanwhile keep buying our effs.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby GeorgeWelch » 23 Aug 2013 04:47

Dhananjay wrote:This "we" includes

The f-18 or f 35 + other ungle sam stuff lovers.


Sorry, I think you're reading the arguments backwards.

"We" includes those who believe in India's potential, those who believe that India's forward progress is too great to be stopped by one failed project.

In contrast, Prakash believes that India is a fragile thing and one failed project will permanently and irrevocably break it.

Which side are you on?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 23 Aug 2013 05:04

GeorgeWelch wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Strangely, most of the F-35's customers are sticking to the money-pit.


Again I ask, Is that the model you want to follow?

For all that this forum rails against doing something just because 'Khan' does it that way, you seem bound and determined to follow one of its more dubious paths.

The LCA project must succeed for India's sake despite the chagrin of Lockheed Martin and Boeing. It's cost pales in significance to the cost of the F-35, but the importance of the LCA to India now and in the future is akin to the importance of the F-35 to the US and committed international buyers.

You call the F-35 dubious in the comfort of knowing that it will not be cancelled. I haven't seen you ever calling for the cancellation of the F-35 project. You've been on this forum a while.

GeorgeWelch wrote:
PratikDas wrote:The LCA is an essential project for India in much the same way that the Manhattan Project cost nearly US$2 billion (about $26 billion in 2013 dollars). It isn't like there was any certainty of the Manhattan Project culminating in what it did. It was simply imperative.


It was only imperative because of the utility of what it offered.

If after investing all that money, scientists realized that they had made a critical mistake and an atomic bomb could never work, then its utility goes to zero and the funding is withdrawn.

As if you know for a fact that the funding would be withdrawn because you were the President of the USA :rotfl: As if a race to develop the nuclear weapon wasn't on with other countries. As if it would be so easy to just say no and stop spending money because other were surely to fail as well.

Also, you're contending by analogy that the LCA won't offer the IAF any utility. This is just plain wrong. You should desist.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Manish_Sharma » 23 Aug 2013 05:07

GeorgeWelch wrote:In contrast, Prakash believes that India is a fragile thing and one failed project will permanently and irrevocably break it.

Which side are you on?


My understanding of Shri Arun Prakash means that Marut was made to fail, then a huge time gap was left until LCA came up, now LCA is made to fail then AMCA comes up and that too will be made to fail.

US has helped a lot in LCA delaying, "WE" MUST REMEMBER THAT !

I'm on Shri Arun Prakash's side, LCA's success is crucial.

You and your country US please go ahead and now dump f 35 + f-135 and 136 engines. Just show it as the faith in the greatness of america that "ok we dump f 35 program, we dump sixth generation program until 2050 and will import only AMCA and LCA untill then.

After 2050 we the american's will launch a new a/c program to display that just couple of dumped programs don't make us a failure.

Practice what you're preaching, PLEASE!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby GeorgeWelch » 23 Aug 2013 05:21

PratikDas wrote:The LCA project must succeed for India's sake despite the chagrin of Lockheed Martin and Boeing.


No, India's indigenous fighter development must succeed, but that might be through a vehicle other than the LCA (perhaps the AMCA?)


PratikDas wrote:the importance of the LCA to India now and in the future is akin to the importance of the F-35 to the US and committed international buyers.


Not even close. The F-35 is to be THE combat aircraft across all three branches of the military with no backup plan.

The LCA was never intended to be the supreme combat aircraft of the IAF.

PratikDas wrote: I haven't seen you ever calling for the cancellation of the F-35 project. You've been on this forum a while.


1. This is an Indian defense forum. I don't talk about other US projects here except as they relate to India.
2. It's far enough along that it is clear that it will succeed, or at least be adequate. If it was to be cancelled, it should have happened years ago when there was still time to develop an alternative. Now there truly is no choice because a massive wave of combat aircraft retirements is looming and there's no time for a fresh start.

India is in the enviable position of not having to rely on the LCA.

PratikDas wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:If after investing all that money, scientists realized that they had made a critical mistake and an atomic bomb could never work, then its utility goes to zero and the funding is withdrawn.


As if you know for a fact that the funding would be withdrawn because you were the President of the USA :rotfl:


This isn't hard to understand. If a nuclear weapon wouldn't work, why would you continue to fund work on it?

PratikDas wrote:As if a race to develop the nuclear weapon wasn't on with other countries. As if it would be so easy to just say no and stop spending money because other were surely to fail as well.


If it was theoretically impossible (in this alternate universe), then yes, those other countries would fail as well and thus there would be no reason to continue.

PratikDas wrote:Also, you're contending by analogy that the LCA won't offer the IAF any utility. This is just plain wrong. You should desist.


Do you understand what a hypothetical is? I ask this seriously because every time I use one you seem massively confused by it.

I never said the LCA won't offer the IAF any utility.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby titash » 23 Aug 2013 05:36

George,

If this were 1910 and we were an early player in the aerospace industry, then yes, perhaps we might junk an under-performing LCA in the hope that an AMCA might enter service in the next 3 years (say product life cycle = 3-5 years)

But this is 2013, and here we are making (for all practical purposes) our first fighter plane. The product life cycle is no longer 3-5 years, but 25+ years from design to squadron service

If the LCA is not a success, then a whole generation of Indians will have to forego the benefits of a robust aviation industry. I'm not sure too many people will want to wait that long

The LCA has stakeholders beyond the IAF and IN. A whole aviation industry is riding on its shoulders. Failure is not an option, even at the cost of replicating the Chinese model of inducting 100's of sub-par aircraft (none of which would ever find their way into the USAF/RAF/IAF lineup)

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 23 Aug 2013 05:46

India's indigenous fighter development must succeed, but that might be through a vehicle other than the LCA (perhaps the AMCA?)


I said something similar some time back. Let the LCA be a super tech demo, get IOC II and FOC to the best extent possible - that would not be a failure. And, make the AMCA the focus. The problem will still be a (borrowed) engine.

But, I agree that India can succeed through something other than the LCA. Even then the LCA will not be a failure.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 23 Aug 2013 05:52

GeorgeWelch wrote:No, India's indigenous fighter development must succeed, but that might be through a vehicle other than the LCA (perhaps the AMCA?)

You know very well that the design and manufacturing ecosystem benefits from iterative cycles. It will not be possible to manufacture a complicated, stealth, AMCA without India having mass produced the LCA and learning from it. It is for this reason the LCA must succeed and only then will it even be possible to mass manufacture an AMCA or something beyond. It is rather disingenuous of you to suggest that the LCA project can be dropped and India move on to a clean slate for this reason. I also understand how India's learning curve for mass-manufacturing being set back for decades would enhance sales prospects for Lockheed Martin and Boeing, so your conflict of interest is quite clear. I'm not massively confused by that, at the very least.

GeorgeWelch wrote:The LCA was never intended to be the supreme combat aircraft of the IAF.

But without having seen the LCA from design to prototyping to mass-manufacturing and operationalisation India will not even have the experience for building an aircraft capable of being the supreme combat aircraft of the IAF in the future! I know you know that a 2nd [Indian] generation requires a 1st generation [LCA] but you don't want to acknowledge it. I see the conflict of interest and I understand.

GeorgeWelch wrote:If it [nuclear bomb] was theoretically impossible (in this alternate universe), then yes, those other countries would fail as well and thus there would be no reason to continue.


The nuclear bomb was theoretically possible for Germany just as much as it was possible for the Soviet Union and the US but Germany failed - because they didn't try hard enough.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/nazis-and-the-bomb.html
How close were the Nazis to developing an atomic bomb? The truth is that National Socialist Germany could not possibly have built a weapon like the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. This was not because the country lacked the scientists, resources, or will, but rather because its leaders did not really try.
...
Army Ordnance came to the reasonable conclusion that the uranium work was important enough to continue at the laboratory scale, but that a massive shift to the industrial scale, something required in any serious attempt to build an atomic bomb, would not be done. This contrasts with the commitment the German leadership made throughout the war to the effort to build a rocket. They sunk enormous resources into this project, indeed, on the scale of what the Americans invested in the Manhattan Project.

QED, from the PBS too.

So the US could have thrown the towel as well but they persisted and so did the Soviet Union. India needs to persist with the LCA effort.
Last edited by PratikDas on 23 Aug 2013 05:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby GeorgeWelch » 23 Aug 2013 05:52

titash wrote:If the LCA is not a success, then a whole generation of Indians will have to forego the benefits of a robust aviation industry.


How so? Which part of the aviation industry is dependent on the LCA in particular?

The design expertise? They would be working on the new project.

The manufacturing? If you're not building the LCA, you're building more MKI and Rafales.

The LCA has stakeholders beyond the IAF and IN. A whole aviation industry is riding on its shoulders.


Not true. The aviation industry will be just fine regardless.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 23 Aug 2013 05:56

GeorgeWelch wrote:
The LCA has stakeholders beyond the IAF and IN. A whole aviation industry is riding on its shoulders.


Not true. The aviation industry will be just fine regardless.

Whatever.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby GeorgeWelch » 23 Aug 2013 06:02

PratikDas wrote: You know very well that the design and manufacturing ecosystem benefits from iterative cycles. It will not be possible to manufacture a complicated, stealth, AMCA without India having mass produced the LCA and learning from it.


Don't forget you will be mass manufacturing the Rafale.

PratikDas wrote: It is rather disingenuous of you to suggest that the LCA project can be dropped and India move on to a clean slate for this reason.


Here, this might help you: hypotheticals

PratikDas wrote: But without having seen the LCA from design to prototyping to mass-manufacturing and operationalisation India will not even have the experience for building an aircraft capable of being the supreme combat aircraft of the IAF in the future!


By that logic, how does India have the experience to build the LCA as you have never done all that before?

You never succeed until you do, and there's no reason why it can't be the AMCA or something else.

PratikDas wrote:I know you know that a 2nd [Indian] generation requires a 1st generation [LCA] but you don't want to acknowledge it.


Is any new aircraft manufacturer going to start out with biplanes and radial engines?


PratikDas wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:If it [nuclear bomb] was theoretically impossible (in this alternate universe), then yes, those other countries would fail as well and thus there would be no reason to continue.


The nuclear bomb was theoretically possible for Germany just as much as it was possible for the Soviet Union and the US but Germany failed - because they didn't try hard enough.


Again I will refer you to this

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 23 Aug 2013 06:03

Thanks for playing, GW.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby kmc_chacko » 23 Aug 2013 07:02

Did anybody read this

NGT halts DRDO's testing range in Karnataka

DRDO testing range gets red signal from green tribunal

In a major setback for the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the National Green Tribunal (NGT), on Wednesday halted the construction of the country’s first aeronautic testing range in Chitradurga in Karnataka stating that the range did not have clearance from the Karnataka Pollution Control Board (KPCB).

The interim order stalling construction was passed in a petition filed by environmental activists from Bangalore, who alleged that pastoral lands were being converted to facilitate the range.

The petition filed in February, said that 10,000 acres of traditional, pastoral land, termed Amrit Mahal Kaval in Karnataka, was being converted for industrial purposes against all norms. The land was transferred by the State government to various organisations including the DRDO, the Indian Institute of Science and the Indian Space Research Organisation. The application wanted the tribunal to restore the traditional pastoral lands to its original state devoid of all encroachment and construction.

Following the application, the NGT set up an expert committee to ascertain the actual status of the land under question. The report of the committee was submitted recently to the tribunal.

On Wednesday, when the matter came up for hearing, counsel for the respondents said no clearance from the KPCB was necessary for the project. This position, he said, has already been clarified by the Ministry of Environment and Forests. “If the NGT passes an order halting the project, this will result in huge loss of public money,” the counsel argued.

The Bench said the DRDO had indeed applied to the KPCB for consent to establish the range but had gone ahead with the constructions even as the matter was pending consideration. This, the bench observed, was not in accordance to norms. Therefore, the tribunal said status quo should be maintained by the project proponents till the KPCB considers their application and processes it as per the requirements of law within two weeks. The matter was then posted to September 17.


http://newindianexpress.com/education/s ... 745785.ece
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby kmc_chacko » 23 Aug 2013 07:05

a petition filed by environmental activists from Bangalore

I prefer Govt should take TADA or any Anti-National case against him for acting against the national interest

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Victor » 23 Aug 2013 08:15

Dhananjay wrote: today Tejas is delayed because DRDO wanted F 414 engine but americans refused and allowed only f 404 engine.

Never heard this before. Do you have any links?

today Tejas is delayed because of *%&$$*& amricans.
.."WE" MUST REMEMBER THAT !

We did remember....and bought the *%&$$*& amrican F404 and F414 for the Tejas. No other engine in the world would do.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby rajanb » 23 Aug 2013 09:06

Here we go again.

With moi comments in blue
http://idrw.org/?p=25890#more-25890

As the Tejas speeds towards IOC-II, it appears that a crucial hurdle may slow it down, the platform needs a new radome. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has sent out an expression of interest to vendors to “design, develop and manufacture radome for LCA”. { This was known months back} The ADA’s Directorate of Avionics & Weapon Systems in the EOI of September 2012 notes that it is “looking for alternative radome for LCA as part of their product improvement activity”.

The EoI stipulates that the new radome is “to replace the existing radome with improved electromagnetic performance (EM) and with no change in existing geometry and pitot attachments.” Also, the new radome needs to have identical geometry, though surface smoothness needs to be “equivalent or better”. The document also suggests that the team testing the Tejas has issues with the lightning protection system of the existing radome and that there is rain water ingress at the radome-fuselage junction in the current structure. {The lightning part is new to me. I thought it was a part of the fact that composite structures need special embedded paths for charge flow. But the water ingress part, innovatively fixable with rubber/plastic unless the leak is thru the radome}


My unashamed POV is that this is another DDM speak. After all, the LCA is an Indian product!

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby rajanb » 23 Aug 2013 09:17

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Philip wrote:*In a separate interview with Adm.Arun Prakash,former CNS,he says that ,"If the LCA project was to fail,India would never be able to produce a combat aircraft and would remain dependent upon foreign suppliers for all times.


This is what we call scaremongering.


In all fairness, was he reflecting the navy POV, regarding the Naval LCA? Which would imply combat a/c for the carriers?

The other angle, I read into his statement, if reported in full, and hence correctly, is "we can bludy well do it, so we bludy well do it!"

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby srin » 23 Aug 2013 09:19

We have (or should have) been manufacturing radomes for Migs and Sukhois and Jaguars, no ? Would the LCA radome have different material requirements from them ?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby rajanb » 23 Aug 2013 09:25

srin wrote:We have (or should have) been manufacturing radomes for Migs and Sukhois and Jaguars, no ? Would the LCA radome have different material requirements from them ?


Agreed Srin. However, I suspect the radome is made of a composite material, which is not the case for the Su, Jags, mig29 et al. hence the problem with EM.

But, in the interim they could always shift to the same material as used by the SU, JAGS et al, till they get it sorted out.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Sagrawal » 23 Aug 2013 10:13

Just saw a Tejas at the runway end towards Marathalli. There are lot of HAL employees on the roof nearby NFTC building. There was a fire truck also near Tejas. Any news from chaiwallas about what's going on today?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby rajanb » 23 Aug 2013 10:19

Marten wrote:No flights this morning until now - Hope Mao Sir is all set. :-)


Was an LCA flight at about 730ish this morning.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby chetak » 23 Aug 2013 12:30

srin wrote:We have (or should have) been manufacturing radomes for Migs and Sukhois and Jaguars, no ? Would the LCA radome have different material requirements from them ?



Smaller radomes like the ones for the RWR etc are routinely being done in India by many companies.

Issues like surface temperature of around 200 degrees Celsius are factors that can complicate local manufacture. Larger radomes like those in the nose require extensive aerodynamic data from the original manufacturer/designer and these are rarely forthcoming.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby symontk » 23 Aug 2013 17:32

rajanb wrote:
Marten wrote:No flights this morning until now - Hope Mao Sir is all set. :-)


Was an LCA flight at about 730ish this morning.


Was that an LCA flight? I thought that was AJT's and also I saw a green Jaguar too

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 23 Aug 2013 17:55

Flight test update -> 2297

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby kit » 23 Aug 2013 17:58

Now if the MRCA deal goes into a limbo .... HAL better get tooled up ... wonder if a massive investment in defence infrastructure and production boost the economy .. if at least half of mrca money is spent in country..

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 23 Aug 2013 18:43

pastoral lands and pollution is a genuine concern, and that should have been taken care of if policies and procedures are followed strictly. i am not sure any indic gov bureaucracy getting things done in a planned and phased out manner that is in consistent with project /program plans of LCA. A big project like this can't be held by stupid idiots who think they have more rights than other citizens .. there are aspects for considerations, but there are aspects where their role and responsibilities lies, and only the indic babu regimes alone can think how they screw themselves up beyond recognition, but only be thrown to an analysis point where such practices and procedures only makes the genuine citizens suffer [if the concerns are genuine].

at this time, what is the concern needs to be tabled, and appropriate actions can be taken.. like testing times to help the animals graze etc... or allocated a different land for farming/cattle grazing areas.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 23 Aug 2013 20:52

are we sure that GOI has not bought forward contracts in euros and dollars to fund the programme?

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby titash » 23 Aug 2013 21:26

GeorgeWelch wrote:
titash wrote:If the LCA is not a success, then a whole generation of Indians will have to forego the benefits of a robust aviation industry.


How so? Which part of the aviation industry is dependent on the LCA in particular?

The design expertise? They would be working on the new project.

The manufacturing? If you're not building the LCA, you're building more MKI and Rafales.

The LCA has stakeholders beyond the IAF and IN. A whole aviation industry is riding on its shoulders.


Not true. The aviation industry will be just fine regardless.


George,

(1) The ENTIRE aviation industry is dependent on the LCA. Make no mistake, this is the first fixed wing project in the country with any level of sophistication.

(2) The design expertise is irrelevant if it doesn't translate into a mass manufactured product. I have personally designed 6th and 7th generation aircraft during my lunch breaks too. But alas, no one seems to take me seriously until I can translate those designs into any worthwhile product.

How is anyone going to gain design experience unless they build something, see how it pans out, and then iteratively improve it & take the lessons learned to the next product? Did I mention I also work on a new submarine design project every lunch break?

(3) The manufacturing expertise? Dude - we've been screwdriver assembling Migs/Jags/Sukhois for the last 50 years. Kindly describe the value addition and product design/delivery expertise that has translated into?

A semiconductor foundry isn't coming out with the next design of microprocessors BECAUSE they have no exposure to microprocessor design/testing/validation. What's worse is that unlike a semiconductor foundry which manufactures for worldwide customers, HAL is NOT the manufacturing hub for all aircraft sold worldwide. It's simply a screwdriver assembly point of foreign designs, for local consumption.

The "industry" as you describe it is a glorified garage. The design and manufacturing powerhouse will be a reality if and only if the LCA succeeds on the lines of Dhruv.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby rajanb » 23 Aug 2013 21:28

^^^^ Well put +100

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 23 Aug 2013 22:32

what mr. welch is hiding is where does the money come from if you don't have any RoI on the initial R&D done? only when a product goes into operational mode, and production happens is when there is something on the business charter that would make sense for all stakeholders.

keeping our guys busy only with r&d shops makes them as long term workshops for firangs. nothing more or nothing less. well, they have their market objectives, and we have ours too. nothing wrong in them looking at us at a subdued levels as they are just doing what they want to do.

a better way to handle this is like the chess game, where instead of fighting pawn vs. pawn, take the pawn forward, and as forward as one can with backup forces. our goals are different.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby GeorgeWelch » 24 Aug 2013 02:24

titash wrote:(1) The ENTIRE aviation industry is dependent on the LCA.


No

titash wrote:Make no mistake, this is the first fixed wing project in the country with any level of sophistication.


MKI?

titash wrote:(2) The design expertise is irrelevant if it doesn't translate into a mass manufactured product.


No

titash wrote:I have personally designed 6th and 7th generation aircraft during my lunch breaks too.


The LCA isn't a lunch-time doodle, it flies today. That is real design experience. Whether the IAF ends up ordering 20 or 200 the design experience was very real and very valuable.

titash wrote:How is anyone going to gain design experience unless they build something, see how it pans out


Well the LCA has been built and we will see how it pans out.

titash wrote:then iteratively improve it


All designs have fundamental limits. Recognizing when you reach them and it's time to move on is also an important step. Otherwise we'd be flying Supermegaultra Spitfires

titash wrote:take the lessons learned to the next product?


Again, the experience and lessons learned translate to the next project just as well whether the IAF orders 20 or 200.

titash wrote:Did I mention I also work on a new submarine design project every lunch break?


Does your lunch-break sub actually exist in tangible form that can dive (and resurface)?

titash wrote:(3) The manufacturing expertise? Dude - we've been screwdriver assembling Migs/Jags/Sukhois for the last 50 years. Kindly describe the value addition and product design/delivery expertise that has translated into?


The value is that you have aerospace lines capable of mass-manufacturing planes.

It is important to separate the design and the manufacture part of the LCA. The design part is mostly done and that experience has already been gained regardless of what happens from now on. The actual manufacture of the LCA doesn't gain you much more than the MKI does.

Suraj
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Suraj » 24 Aug 2013 02:53

GeorgeWelch: you are on notice for trolling. One word answers like 'No' in response to other replying to controversial assertions from you do not cut it. If you continue trolling without substance, you will earn a warning.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby raj-ji » 24 Aug 2013 03:17

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Ajatshatru wrote:stuff


It is difficult to predict the future accurately, even more so the distant future. To say that if one project fails it is flat impossible for India to ever develop a fighter is absurd.

Yes, on this issue I'm very rational.


Not as absurd as you may think. It's happened before. Heard about Canada's Avro Arrow? If not you should check it out, there's even a movie about it.

Late 1950s Canada developed a state of the art fighter. Ahead of its time. They were very close to going into production. But with some pressure from Canada's neighbor to the south, the project was cancelled abruptly. And the engineers that worked on this state of the art aircraft, went on to work for aviation giants in the US. An idigenous fighter, in this case reportedly ahead of the competition was shut down due to pressure. And to this day, Canada buys its fighters from the same neighbor, it doesn't make it's own. Who benefitted and who lost out in this. Not hard to tell.

We are over 90% complete on the Tejas. Some would argue 95 or 99%. Better management of the LCA project is needed, and recent events show that this is heading in the right direction. But shutting it down would be beyond foolish. That's as rational a statement as possible.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 24 Aug 2013 04:07

GeorgeWelch wrote:It is important to separate the design and the manufacture part of the LCA. The design part is mostly done and that experience has already been gained regardless of what happens from now on. The actual manufacture of the LCA doesn't gain you much more than the MKI does.

That is just plain wrong. The MKI is assembled based on the blueprints, spec-sheets, tolerance limits and processes provided by the OEM which tell HAL how to either procure or manufacture every last nut and bolt. Several key components no doubt are obtained directly from the OEM itself. For the LCA, HAL needs to develop all this themselves. There was an article recently which talked about how all of this is actually quite a challenge considering the lack of production engineering expertise available. Besides, the LCA airframe uses a lot of composites which none of the other aircraft manufactured/assembled by HAL till now did, including the MKI.

And after serial manufacturing is sorted out and the LCA goes into squadron use, there will be without a doubt problems discovered and recommendations for tweaking certain aspects made. ADA and HAL may have to go back to the drawing board to fix these things. And after it has been in use for 15 years, it will need an MLU. Some parts may have to be redesigned then as well to fit in whatever new technologies are required.

HAL must go through this process on at least one aircraft completely. Ideally this should have happened with the Marut itself. It didn't, mainly because of the engine issue and the results are there for all to see.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 24 Aug 2013 08:06

manufacturing part of LCA is exactly what we want to research on now.. concurrent engineering and production engineering. the jigs and assembly lines to high efficiency and optimal model that can be verified using computing and modelling systems. models can verify and validate operational changes that keeps coming in after LCA goes into production.. there are changes that happen within the scope of the production phase, minor corrections etc, that requires design and validations. robotics is another area, where need advancements.. such improvements need maturity models that plays in. it is a big game industry where GE, Boeing et al have established.. now if India does one establishment here, would mean the same things happening at cheaper costs..

for example the Rafale and F22/JSF raptor lines can be churned at cheaper options.. now that is terrorizing in itself to western nations.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 25 Aug 2013 19:58

I'm cross posting this only because of the quality control issue with HAL for series production of aircraft.Fortunately the LCA flies with a US engine,but what is going to be the quality if and when it and the 414 are made/assembled here? The bitter experience with HAL manufacturing MIG engines and components has to be taken into consideration when we dream of more ambitious venrtures wihtout even beginning series production of the LCA.

Front-page report in the Bangalore edition of the New Indian Express.Xcpts. X-posted.

Major issues with quality of HAL's MIG engines and components alleged in this front page report from "documents accessed by Express" Most of the crashes have been attributed to "human error",but a "post-mortem" shows that the problem actually lies with the shoddy quality of HAL manufactured components.

The report says that "40% of the engines and accessories manufactured by HAL Koraput have been returned by the IAF for some defect or the other".

http://epaper.newindianexpress.com/1516 ... 3#page/1/1

Engine flaws turn MIGs into killers.

The report says that defective HAL made components caused "oil leaks,metallic particles in oil filters,hot air leaks from rear casing,trouble in compressors,and even turbine of MIG-27 aero-engines".This is attributed to the "horrific condition of the govt's stae-of-the-art manufacturing unit".

All 3 MIG types,MIG021,27,29s are suffering quality issues.LPTR failure in at least 11 accidents.
"HAL in some cases even lied while overhauling the LPTR saying it had followed the overhaul manualbut MOD officials said that the procedure recommended by the original equipment manufacturer was not being implemented by the celebrated company."

Shocking facts swept under the carpet.

"Springs installed in the fuel pump of MIG-21 engines are failing frequently.A MIG-21 Bison aircraft crashed in November 2012 in Gujarat was attributed to spring failure.The documents suggest that of the five main fuel pumps fitted with HAL manufactured springs,at least three springs failed,which is unforgivable as it would've certainly resulted in accidents.Shockingly,the main fuel pumps of Bisons continue to leak fuel despite four studies since 1990s.It says despite incorporating fuel changes,fuel leak from main fuel pump continued unabated from the throttle end."

MIG-29 fleet flying ops often suspended due to non-availability of critical accessories and poor quality of repairing.One reason attributed to these problems of poor quality and engine repairs is "mass production work in the last leg of production year,to achieve the target. For example in the first 6 months of 2012-13 production,HAL finished work on only 4 MIG-29 engines.but in the last quarter of the year,4 engines were completed within three months".

Same case with MIG-27 engines.9 completed in 9 months,but interestingly another 9 were completed within the last three months.
The issue was flagged by the MOD saying that such trend is adversely affecting the quality of aero-engines.

In the last 40 years,we have lost 171 pilot,39 civilians and almost half the MIG fleet.


PS:With this sorry track record,is it any wonder that Dassault has expressed doubts about HAL being able to deliver the quality expected in Rafale manufacture?

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... eal-rafale
Quote:

Under the deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets, then manufacture the rest in India. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be the company's lead partner in the process.
Dassault had earlier expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture such a sophisticated fighter jet.

Foreign companies have in the past questioned whether Indian companies have the advanced technology and trained staff to build world-class systems.

Negotiations slowed down after Dassault said it wanted two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made aircraft, and another for the rest to be built by HAL, an Indian defence ministry official told Reuters earlier this year.

India had opposed the proposal, the official said in April. Le Drian met Indian Defence Minister A. K. Antony earlier on Friday.

An Indian defence ministry spokesman declined to comment on the status of negotiations for the jet deal.

XCpt. from a Reuters report :http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/04/05/india-rafale-deal-idINDEE93403Z20130405

Quote:
"Dassault says HAL does not have the capacity and capability to assemble the aircraft," said the official, who declined to be identified because he is not authorised to speak to the media.

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 26 Aug 2013 13:08

Flight test update 2297->2298

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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Postby partha » 26 Aug 2013 13:35

raj-ji wrote:
Not as absurd as you may think. It's happened before. Heard about Canada's Avro Arrow? If not you should check it out, there's even a movie about it.

Late 1950s Canada developed a state of the art fighter. Ahead of its time. They were very close to going into production. But with some pressure from Canada's neighbor to the south, the project was cancelled abruptly.


Thanks for this info. This is the reason I visit military forum - great source of learning. I agree with rest of your post raj-ji. As Shri Avinash Chander said in his recent interview, no nation will hand over advanced technologies. We need to develop them ourselves. Patience is the key. The knowledge gained in the process of developing LCA is invaluable. I am sure the next aircraft development will be less painful and faster.

I have some questions - considering LCA is supposed to replace MiG-21, are there any tests done by IAF to compare MiG 21 and LCA? Is the latest LCA prototype better than current MiG 21s being used by IAF? Could someone please point me to some resources? A simple Google search did not result in any useful links.


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