Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Aditya_V
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Nov 2012 16:37

What are the dimensions of such the missile, warhead weight etc.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SKrishna » 23 Nov 2012 18:58

Why does a solid rocket powered Mach 4+ missile need a subsonic CM type folded wings? :eek: :eek: Wont the shear off at high supersonic speeds? :eek: :eek: Also being rocket powered, it is likely to glide most of the way and lose its kinetic energy as it approaches the target.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 23 Nov 2012 20:00

I think its likely subsonic for most of the way using those wings to extend some range , and probably discards the wings in the terminal diving phase using explosive bolts to throw them off.
in effect no different from a low cost down at the heels SLAM-ER wannabe without the sensor quality.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby D Roy » 23 Nov 2012 20:03

Could be a Raduga Kh-15 equivalent though. May have a quasi-ballistic profile.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SKrishna » 23 Nov 2012 20:39

The folded wings seen in the pic are not of CM-400AKG but of LS-6 Glide bomb placed behind it. My mistake, the photograph from a different angle makes it clear

Image

But the literature of the Missile shows a different fin arrangement!

Image

Also being a land attack variant of subsonic YJ-82, I seriously doubt the Mach 4+ claim



PS: Sorry for the large inline pics

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 23 Nov 2012 20:40

Whats going to protect the lumbering blundaar carrying this mijjile from the N-LCA or Mig-29K? Won't a RVV-AE itself drive them away.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Kanson » 23 Nov 2012 20:50

the missile looks very much like SY-400 which too has reported to have 150 km range.

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/sy_400.htm

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gagan » 23 Nov 2012 21:44

That is why they have bought the Karakoram Eagle AEW and it is deployed in Masroor AFB in Karachi.
This will conduct snooping ops on IN ships, and they hope will provide coordinates for the Pakistani aircraft to launch these anti-ship missiles.

Pakistan has given up hope of matching IN's western fleet on and below the sea. But they think that they can do some defense from the air.

One BIG hitch in their plans though, is the IAF, which will take out Pakistan's naval strike capability very early on, even if the PAF shifts out of Karachi and to Pasni or Gawadar.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby eklavya » 24 Nov 2012 04:23

PAF Mirage crash

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Friday ordered a board of inquiry to determine the cause of its Mirage aircraft crash on a night routine training mission near Thal Range last night.

A Mirage aircraft, while on a night routine training mission, had crashed near Thal Range, District Jhang on Thursday night.

According to a PAF spokesman, the pilot, Squadron Leader Bilal Hassan Babri, succumbed to fatal injuries he sustained during the crash.

He said no loss to civilian life or property on ground has been reported.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gurinder P » 24 Nov 2012 07:36

The IAF and Naval Air Arm can control the skies and prevent air launch of missiles, but my worry is when the IN conducts the blockade of Karachi, and the Missiles being land launched or even worse, disguised in shipping containers and being launched at sea against the our glorious fleet. How can the IN prevent such attacks?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby adityadange » 24 Nov 2012 12:55

Gurinder P,
it is explicitly mentioned that the missile is air launched. I think if IN blocks karachi, it will place the carrier some 500km from the shore so it will be out of reach of paf fighters and carrier bourne migs can take care of carrier itself and other ships that are placed near shore. additionally IAF can support IN. IN air will be used as defensive mode while IAF will conduct offensive operations.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vivek_ahuja » 24 Nov 2012 13:57

adityadange wrote:Gurinder P,
it is explicitly mentioned that the missile is air launched. I think if IN blocks karachi, it will place the carrier some 500km from the shore so it will be out of reach of paf fighters and carrier bourne migs can take care of carrier itself and other ships that are placed near shore. additionally IAF can support IN. IN air will be used as defensive mode while IAF will conduct offensive operations.


That's all well and good in theory. Perhaps even in practice. However my concern is that the threat level just increased for the carriers. With high KE weapons, no mistakes will be acceptable during operations. And mind you, mistakes do happen all the time. Any gap in the air cover that might allow an intruder to come close to the carrier can now be very dangerous.

What we need is something akin the BMD defense system mounted on a suitable destroyer that can sail alongside the carriers. Kind of like the Aegis cruisers but incorporating the AAD interceptors. Interestingly, the AAD engagement profile is perfect for knocking out these missiles from the sky. These new Chinese toys are nothing more than SRBMs and is exactly the kind of threat that can be eliminated by the AAD system...

JMT

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gurinder P » 24 Nov 2012 14:24

adityadange wrote:Gurinder P,
it is explicitly mentioned that the missile is air launched. I think if IN blocks karachi, it will place the carrier some 500km from the shore so it will be out of reach of paf fighters and carrier bourne migs can take care of carrier itself and other ships that are placed near shore. additionally IAF can support IN. IN air will be used as defensive mode while IAF will conduct offensive operations.


The carrier can stay out of range, but what about the ships that have to conduct the blockade?

I can sense a disaster, when say for example: A merchant ship has just left Karachi and is steaming towards the IN blockade and the IN detects the ship and sends boarding parties via Helos. But, the merchant ship starts to open up a few containers and pop off a few missiles at the IN blockade.

Apart from that gloomy situation, I was wondering if using the IN to blockade Karachi can be a card the GOI can use against Pakistan to force the GOPak to rid itself of the terrorist and militants. Wouldn't it be much easier on India and lots of Jawans can be saved by not invading Pakistan.
Last edited by Gurinder P on 24 Nov 2012 14:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Brando » 24 Nov 2012 14:28

The entire discussion is moot.

As soon as the IN tries to blockade Karachi or Gadwar, the Pakistanis will escalate to nuclear weapons, so any discussion of conventional threats is meaningless.

It would be far more efficient for the IN to simple Nuke Karachi, Gadwar and any other ports the Paki's have and them land troops and mop up the rest of the survivors of Karachi city and put them out of their misery.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gurinder P » 24 Nov 2012 14:33

Brando wrote:The entire discussion is moot.

As soon as the IN tries to blockade Karachi or Gadwar, the Pakistanis will escalate to nuclear weapons, so any discussion of conventional threats is meaningless.

It would be far more efficient for the IN to simple Nuke Karachi, Gadwar and any other ports the Paki's have and them land troops and mop up the rest of the survivors of Karachi city and put them out of their misery.



Efficient it will be, but if India uses Nukes first, the entire globe will be up in arms against India and Pakistan will have a sure victory on the PR front. Not to mention the embargoes that will be places against India, and even worse, the embargoes will likely be led by China and Unkil, thereby putting the Indian Economy in the red. Citizens of India have worked too damn hard to have themselves be forced back to an economic stone age because of Pakistan.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Don » 24 Nov 2012 14:38

Brando wrote:The entire discussion is moot.



It would be far more efficient for the IN to simple Nuke Karachi, Gadwar and any other ports the Paki's have and them land troops and mop up the rest of the survivors of Karachi city and put them out of their misery.


What would be the consequences of a nuclear war between India and Pakistan ?

Nuclear war is not a joke with millions of lives loss and a tragedy to all humanity.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23677 » 24 Nov 2012 14:39

Gurinder P wrote:
Brando wrote:The entire discussion is moot.

As soon as the IN tries to blockade Karachi or Gadwar, the Pakistanis will escalate to nuclear weapons, so any discussion of conventional threats is meaningless.

It would be far more efficient for the IN to simple Nuke Karachi, Gadwar and any other ports the Paki's have and them land troops and mop up the rest of the survivors of Karachi city and put them out of their misery.



Efficient it will be, but if India uses Nukes first, the entire globe will be up in arms against India and Pakistan will have a sure victory on the PR front. Not to mention the embargoes that will be places against India, and even worse, the embargoes will likely be led by China and Unkil, thereby putting the Indian Economy in the red. Citizens of India have worked too damn hard to have themselves be forced back to an economic stone age because of Pakistan.

Your question has been answered. there can be thousands of probable ways in which the mythical porki army will attack we can't answer each and every scenario for you. Long story short, the IN will blockade the porkis before they will even know it. Our systems are vastly better than the porkis so it should be an easy kill.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23677 » 24 Nov 2012 14:40

Don wrote:
Brando wrote:The entire discussion is moot.



It would be far more efficient for the IN to simple Nuke Karachi, Gadwar and any other ports the Paki's have and them land troops and mop up the rest of the survivors of Karachi city and put them out of their misery.


What would be the consequences of a nuclear war between India and Pakistan ?

Nuclear war is not a joke with millions of lives loss and a tragedy to all humanity.

Awww look who's worrying for us, what about Indo-china nuclear standoff or US-china nuclear standoff?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Gurinder P » 24 Nov 2012 14:51

P.Bhagat wrote:Awww look who's worrying for us, what about Indo-china nuclear standoff or US-china nuclear standoff?


A china-whoever nuclear standoff is ludicrous. China will use economics to flex their muscles. Pakistan using nuclear weapons is a real possibility because those religious zealots think they will go to heaven and get 73 virgins each for sending kifirs to hell. However, instead of nuking the paki ports, how about just fire bombing the docks along with fuel air bombs and setting the oil depots ablaze and have the fine MARCOS take out the refineries???

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Don » 24 Nov 2012 16:24

P.Bhagat wrote:


Awww look who's worrying for us, what about Indo-china nuclear standoff or US-china nuclear standoff?

Does it matter ? A nuclear war anywhere in the world will ruin anybody's day.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Victor » 24 Nov 2012 19:58

The premise was that pakis will use nukes first in the event of an IN blockade. Indian nukes will only be used in retaliation because of NFU. However a paki nuke is simply a Chinese nuke in green paint so in the event of a paki nuke being used against India, all three countries will be nuked. The Chinese should have no illusions about this. Pakistan would be finished and it would remain for China to decide how much damage they would want to take for the sins of their pagal kutta.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Nov 2012 12:25

Wonder if we will publically remove Pakis H&D on this like the Shaheen test

Pakistan test-fires nuclear-capable ballistic missile

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 28 Nov 2012 12:44

Looks like the AAD has them soiling themselves. Now a PDV test should constipate them permanently.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Nihat » 28 Nov 2012 15:07

Victor wrote:The premise was that pakis will use nukes first in the event of an IN blockade. Indian nukes will only be used in retaliation because of NFU. However a paki nuke is simply a Chinese nuke in green paint so in the event of a paki nuke being used against India, all three countries will be nuked. The Chinese should have no illusions about this. Pakistan would be finished and it would remain for China to decide how much damage they would want to take for the sins of their pagal kutta.


Very nice in theory but highly highly improbable in reality. Both Pakistan and China are well aware of our nuclear stance and probably can estimate with reasonable accuracy the limits of our nuclear response in the event of a Pakistani first strike. IMHO , we should at least make it clear to TSP via officially issued statements that any sort of nuclear strike , no matter how piddi the warhead is as good as a full strategic nuclear strike and will evoke a full nuclear response. As such it would severely limit Pakistan's options owing to the fact that we have / will have a functioning multi-layered missile shield.

Not to mention the fact that we have not been paying any significant attention to the rabid dog off late and are more focused on China, leads me to believe that in the event of a future conflict , we'll rely a lot on stand off weapons for a sharp and painful response on Paki economic and military infrastructure and then retreat. Cold start seems a very clever idea floated by the planners to make Pakis even more mad, I doubt the politicians or even army generals will be willing to go for a full armed thrust into TSP to avenge terror strikes. Before the Pakis can even think of going nuclear, the damage would have been done.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_20317 » 28 Nov 2012 18:28

A full scale attack for a Terrorist strike does not mean it makes any sense.

The best response I can see is putting about 200-300 Prahaars and 100 Brahmos in silos up near the International Border and launch them at the Radars, Parked aircrafts & Karachi harbour etc. It would be easy to graduate this kind of response too.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby arun » 30 Nov 2012 20:25

X Posting article on bits of the Ghauri / Hatf V missile falling on villages in Sind from the TSP thread:

SSridhar wrote:Mysterious Metal Objects in Dadu fell from Hatf-V missile: ISPR

“The metal parts found in a remote area of Dadu, as reported in media today, were part of the motor body, which separated from the missile as planned, well within the safety corridor,” said a statement by the ISPR.

It was ensured that at no point, would human life or property be at risk. There is no cause for alarm or concern,” the spokesman concluded.

Fear and bewilderment overtook some parts of Dadu district after the mysterious objects fell on a number of villages late on Wednesday, the Dawn newspaper had reported.

The biggest fragment weighing 187 kilograms fell on a ground in Allah Jurio Lund village, 30 kilometres from Dadu. Other pieces fell on Pir Mashaikh, Shehak Rodnani and Khandhani villages.


Now, now. Heavy metallic parts fall on populated places and PA claims that the parts fell within the safety corridor and that there was no concern or alarm ?

I think the missile veered off course.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Chinmayanand » 30 Nov 2012 20:37

^^^Hope , the warhead falls on pukiland too. After all , all these missiles are chinese . What did the napakis expect from a chinese stuff ?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2012 21:56

arun wrote:X Posting article on bits of the Ghauri / Hatf V missile falling on villages in Sind from the TSP thread:

SSridhar wrote:Mysterious Metal Objects in Dadu fell from Hatf-V missile: ISPR

“The metal parts found in a remote area of Dadu, as reported in media today, were part of the motor body, which separated from the missile as planned, well within the safety corridor,” said a statement by the ISPR.

It was ensured that at no point, would human life or property be at risk. There is no cause for alarm or concern,” the spokesman concluded.

Fear and bewilderment overtook some parts of Dadu district after the mysterious objects fell on a number of villages late on Wednesday, the Dawn newspaper had reported.

The biggest fragment weighing 187 kilograms fell on a ground in Allah Jurio Lund village, 30 kilometres from Dadu. Other pieces fell on Pir Mashaikh, Shehak Rodnani and Khandhani villages.

Now, now. Heavy metallic parts fall on populated places and PA claims that the parts fell within the safety corridor and that there was no concern or alarm ?

I think the missile veered off course.


Anything falling on Pakistanis is falling well within the safe corridor. A dead Pakistani is no loss to anyone in the world and 72 virgins gain employment. A 187 kg mas falling from the sky is no big deal. Not in Pakistan at any rate.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 30 Nov 2012 21:58

187kg projectile falling at... at least terminal velocity, or maybe at the end of the trajectory with significant amount of kinetic energy will make a rather large hole if it hits a village, no?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2012 22:09

The red patch in the map below is Dadu district where the missile parts fell. Wiki says Hatf V is a single stage missile.

Where was it launched from? If the single stage fell off over Dadu that means the warhead alone went "ballistic" from there. Or did the mijjile simply break up and crash?

Image

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_22872 » 30 Nov 2012 22:17

Seems the launch location is undisclosed.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/28 ... e-missile/

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2012 22:25

Some pieces that fell burned for half an hour according to a village eyewitness.
Missile fuel? Or re entry? But re entry over Sindh? :(( :eek: :rotfl:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Anujan » 30 Nov 2012 22:49

Pakistan urgently needs a reliable missile that can target Pakistan. Else how can they do their usual negotiation with gun to their own head? Once the missile is perfected they can threaten "give us aid or will will nuke ourselves"

This missile is a top secret negotiating leverage.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby suryag » 01 Dec 2012 01:57

and after the missile falls on them they would say they are also victims of the dehshakgardi missiles

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Prem » 01 Dec 2012 02:19


hnair
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby hnair » 01 Dec 2012 02:27

what does istinja say about range safety? Can you use dung to to put out fire of a mijjile stuck deep inside a paki safety corridor?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Sabyasachi » 01 Dec 2012 09:25

The launch site in picture looks like northern Pakistan Punjab. It should be some where parallel to Pathankot or little above (my wild guess). They are scared to make launch sites in Balochistan for obvious reasons :P .

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vasu raya » 01 Dec 2012 09:48

Here is a theory, they tried a lofted trajectory to achieve a higher terminal velocity in response to India's recent BMD test and the missile couldn't make it and fell in its boost phase based on the burning fires, if they tried happy path trajectory the missile stage would have fallen in the Arabian sea

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Dec 2012 09:52

There was no notification or Notam for International shipping and AIrcraft over the Arabian sea that too for 1300 KM south of dadu district. Looks the plan range of test was much lower for 1300KM.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 01 Dec 2012 10:07

generally they drive the TELAR to extreme north baluchistan or NW corner of Pakjab and fire it in a N->S or NE->SW direction over the interior of baluchistan or sindh which is thinly populated.

to my knowledge they strike down on land only and no sea tests are done. perhaps the chinese are afraid the american spy subs will retrieve the pieces from the sea floor and gain something they are trying to hide. perhaps the pakis have no tracking ships.


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