Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby SSridhar » 22 Dec 2012 09:41

It is the Harpoon that Pakistan modified and first tested in 2009.

tushar_m

Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 22 Dec 2012 10:11

range of the missile tested is not specified can someone tell us about the current cruise missile inventory of PAF/pak navy

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 22 Dec 2012 21:09

Aditya G wrote:Possibly land attack harpoon or a Chinese c802 variant.


Image

Image

C-802 it is (though it is possible that the land attack missile is not pictured). But which boat is it? Seems like Jalalat class FAC but that would mean that the missile boxes can be slewed to the right.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krishnan » 22 Dec 2012 22:41

Do sailors need to evacuate the ship before firing it ????

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 22 Dec 2012 23:59

Hiten wrote:
Pakistan Navy conducts maiden test of land attack missile system
Any anti ship missile with an active radar seeker can attack radar contrast targets on land. Ofcourse, there is no guarantee on whether it'll hit PNS Dacca, British flagged SS Harmattan or an Oil Tank. Similarly any missile with INS can be used to attack land targets, again without any guarantees of what it'll hit.

SSridhar wrote:It is the Harpoon that Pakistan modified and first tested in 2009.
No, while the US supplied the latest block Harpoons to Pakistan, they disabled the waypoint feature that could have been used for land attack. Waypoint modes could have been used to target US bases in AfPak as well by rogue elements.

Aditya G wrote:Chinese c802
Yes, based on Exocet provided by Pakistan. Ofcourse, Microturbo also sold them the turbojet technology, otherwise the Chinese could not have directly jumped from manufacturing Soviet P-15 to Exocet almost overnight.

Their brand new Azmat has stern broadside launchers. This looks like user trials after delivery. GPS + INS can make any missile a land attack missile.

krishnan wrote:Do sailors need to evacuate the ship before firing it ????
Decks need to be clear. Weapons deployment usually happens during action stations, when most sailors are inside manning their positions. Rocket & Missile exhausts are super hot gases. Especially missile boosters whose job is to accelerate to very high speeds within a very short timeframe. The gases engulfing the deck as seen in the picture can incinerate a person in seconds.

A new sailor (whose Department Head failed to keep a tab on him) wanted to see the missile launch since it was his first occasion. He kept a door open & stood by the doorway. This was halfway along the length of the ship, the launcher was fore. The sailor was badly burnt requiring reconstructive surgery & the ship interiors in the periphery of the door were charred.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krishnan » 23 Dec 2012 09:47

hehehe, you didnt get my joke....i have never seen so much smoke when a missile is launched...in fact the smoke even hits the water...

its looks more like a boat rather than a ship

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby nishu » 23 Dec 2012 10:59

A noob question .
Image

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 23 Dec 2012 11:12

nishu wrote:A noob question .
Image


Good catch. This looks like a possible composite of two images. One is of the ship and smoke from a separate missile launch up and to the right at 45 degrees this missile is not seen and has been PSed out. The visible missile may have been photoshopped onto this image.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 23 Dec 2012 11:57

krishnan wrote:i have never seen so much smoke when a missile is launched
Very slow day :D

The quantum of smoke looks normal to me - refer here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Delhi12.jpg

nishu wrote:A noob question
The starboard facing launchers are hidden by the smoke
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sMsqASfW3CA/T ... 1%2529.jpg & http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee34 ... yjiuzs.jpg

Missile canisters are not as strong as gun barrels, hence their rear ends open to vent gasses while firing. If not vented, then the cannister will explode like a barrel explosion and damage the ship. See here http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smar ... 3-0005.jpg

Your green lines are the typical exhaust.
Your red lines are the rear vented gases.
Your yellow lines are the green line exhaust whose direction has changed after hitting the launcher. The inclination of your yellow lines is aligned with the starboard facing inclined launcher hidden in the smoke

Compare the pattern there with the pattern here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Delhi12.jpg This too has a ramp-incline-ramp exhaust pattern.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Austin » 23 Dec 2012 14:45

tsarkar wrote:Especially missile boosters whose job is to accelerate to very high speeds within a very short timeframe. The gases engulfing the deck as seen in the picture can incinerate a person in seconds.

A new sailor (whose Department Head failed to keep a tab on him) wanted to see the missile launch since it was his first occasion. He kept a door open & stood by the doorway. This was halfway along the length of the ship, the launcher was fore. The sailor was badly burnt requiring reconstructive surgery & the ship interiors in the periphery of the door were charred.


Was not aware these gasses could be so dangerous that it can burn some one , i was under the impression at best it would choke some one to death in rare cases , Thanks for the information. Sorry to hear about the sailor hope he is back in action.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 23 Dec 2012 15:42

nishu wrote:A noob question .
Image

Image

If you enlarge this image (x4/5) you find that the entire section of the sky on the top right hand side has been photoshopped and shows a rectangular box area that has a different color and pixellation pattern from the adjacent sky. This area corresponds to where one would expect a missile to have been if its exhaust fumes were in the same line as the yellow lines drawn by Nishu. There is also some poor quality touching up of sky around that naval officers hat front part/sunshade.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Brando » 23 Dec 2012 16:35

Even if the image is "photoshopped" is it so hard to believe that the PAK navy has LACM when they've been tinkering with the Babur and had access to Chinese cruise missiles for so long ??

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 23 Dec 2012 16:38

Brando wrote:Even if the image is "photoshopped" is it so hard to believe that the PAK navy has LACM when they've been tinkering with the Babur and had access to Chinese cruise missiles for so long ??


No but a question was asked about the photo and answered, so the credibility of Pakistan's undeniable missile strength has not been doubted by anyone at any stage. I assure you that I remain fearful of the threat. But my observations about the photo are unchanged.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 23 Dec 2012 21:59

Now that you mention it, I didnt see the Admiral-ji's photo earlier, only Nishu's analysis. The sea behind Admiral-ji is different. And the missile craft is on a convergent collision course with Admiral-ji's ship :D

The missile firing boat picture looks inserted within Admiral-ji's picture. But the missile firing boat picture is accurate.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 23 Dec 2012 22:37

Austin wrote:Was not aware these gasses could be so dangerous that it can burn some one , i was under the impression at best it would choke some one to death in rare cases , Thanks for the information. Sorry to hear about the sailor hope he is back in action.
Check the backblast range for smaller weapons -
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infa ... r/M72.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 4/Appa.htm
For larger missiles -
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part17.htm
The exhaust stream typically has a temperature of 2,400 Kelvin and a velocity of over 2,500 meters per second. Additionally, it includes highly abrasive particles and active chemical agents.


The sailor recovered partly & was discharged.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Bishwa » 23 Dec 2012 22:47

tsarkar,

How do VLS release missile exhaust gasses on a launch?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 23 Dec 2012 23:14

Hot launched missiles like Barak use vents as shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_l ... old_launch
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dEGArL-u7r8/U ... Viraat.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/r ... Viraat.jpg

Cold launched missiles like Shourya use gas generators to eject the missile & the motor fires thereafter.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby krishnan » 24 Dec 2012 15:08

Actually there are 2 canister sets there, one facing opposite of each other

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Misraji » 26 Dec 2012 07:45


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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Dec 2012 09:55

A 900KG missile if compare Missiles with 240KM range, solid fuel to take it Mach 5.5 the warhead weight is about 5-7% or less of total weight, a 45 KG warhead is a carrier killer?

And does it have guidance mechanism to work such a high speed?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Misraji » 26 Dec 2012 10:23

My bad. Did not perform any analysis, Aditya_V.
Just remembered the words from another such article.

The CM-400AKG is now part of the operational weapon set of the PAF's JF-17 Thunder multirole fighter. "This is a mature weapon that has been fully tested. It is not conceptual. It is in service," Air Commodore Mahmood Khalid, PAF JF-17 Deputy Project Director stated. "The CM-400AKG is a very high-speed missile that is very tough to intercept. It hits the target at Mach 4 or above and its kinetic impact alone is enough to destroy any high-value target, like an aircraft carrier."


--Ashish

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Dec 2012 10:40

Only Pakis, no evaluation trials etc, what kind of sensor is going to make it a ship at Mach 4 plus and keep the missile manouverable as the solid motor would be burned out by the time its near target, and warhead less that 40-45 KG is going to take out an A/C with HTK.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby svinayak » 01 Jan 2013 08:04

Pak trying to pretend they are big powers

IL-78MP MRTT will Allow PAF to Refuel it Fighter Jets in Air
In past, Pakistan air force has lacked the capability to attack Indian air force airfields in Kolkata and Assam which were deep inside India, but with the introduction of the IL-78MP Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) Indian air force will no long be able to hide its fighter jets and other assets in the Northeast of country as it was able to do in the past.

Read more: http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2010/07/il-78 ... z2GgjkmaMU

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 01 Jan 2013 08:33

Thats what i said of the paf. Cobbling together 200 things from 100 sources and firing it off in general direction of enemy hoping something will work .....

They have a long way to go, except in their own imagined ghazi self image.

I wouldnt worry much about paf. If we keep our eyes on cheen and build up, the same tools repurposed will wipe paf off the map.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tushar_m » 01 Jan 2013 11:23

Acharya wrote:Pak trying to pretend they are big powers

IL-78MP MRTT will Allow PAF to Refuel it Fighter Jets in Air
In past, Pakistan air force has lacked the capability to attack Indian air force airfields in Kolkata and Assam which were deep inside India, but with the introduction of the IL-78MP Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) Indian air force will no long be able to hide its fighter jets and other assets in the Northeast of country as it was able to do in the past.

Read more: http://pakmr.blogspot.com/2010/07/il-78 ... z2GgjkmaMU



I don't think PAF have any aircraft that can strike deep inside Indian territory . kolkata & Assam not a chance .

IL78 will not enter Indian airspace as it will be sitting duck for even small SAM (MAN PADS)

the best they can do is try to enter Indian airspace with F16's which itself does not have good range since its an interceptor not a heavy weight fighter.

than again F16's if used , the US will withdrawn support for these fighters as we have seen during kargil war, so they can't keep up the strikes.

another point is that F16's are the most valuable assets of PAF & are available in lesser number(60-70) so if they use it for strike purposed it will be difficult for them to defend there own airspace.

jf bunder is hyped by PAF & pakistani media but only real use of these fighters will show how good it is.

i would bet that PAF is not even using the jf bunder to strike the defenseless talibans in Afghanistan.


another news is that PAF F16's can't be refueled by IL78

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya G » 01 Jan 2013 14:55

Truly unlikely that PAF will send high value asset like refuelers and AEW aircraft over Indian territory. IL-78s will likely orbit close to the Durand line to stay away from IAF BVRAAMs.

F-16s have a long range on account of drop tanks and CFTs .... but other fighters especially the JF-17 and Mirage series will benefit with longer range or higher loadout. Extended range will be useful for taking the sea route to strike Bombay High, Goa and maybe even Karwar.

tushar_m wrote:I don't think PAF have any aircraft that can strike deep inside Indian territory . kolkata & Assam not a chance .

IL78 will not enter Indian airspace as it will be sitting duck for even small SAM (MAN PADS)

the best they can do is try to enter Indian airspace with F16's which itself does not have good range since its an interceptor not a heavy weight fighter.

than again F16's if used , the US will withdrawn support for these fighters as we have seen during kargil war, so they can't keep up the strikes.

another point is that F16's are the most valuable assets of PAF & are available in lesser number(60-70) so if they use it for strike purposed it will be difficult for them to defend there own airspace.

jf bunder is hyped by PAF & pakistani media but only real use of these fighters will show how good it is.

i would bet that PAF is not even using the jf bunder to strike the defenseless talibans in Afghanistan.


another news is that PAF F16's can't be refueled by IL78

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Jan 2013 15:18

I would love to see the PAF amass its entire fleet at one time and too show Indians try to Bomb airfeilds in Assam and WB on the first day of the conflict with entire AEW, IL-78 fighter etc moving in formation in a straight to those airfeilds.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 01 Jan 2013 16:18

probably the Midas has only three roles
- refuel the AWACS orbiting on the border of NWFP-baluchistan belt , deep behind their frontal fighter bases
- help in the recovery phase of any special missions needed to attack places like karwar or goa from the sea
- if they use their F-16 in long loiter CAP mode

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vivek_ahuja » 01 Jan 2013 16:34

Singha wrote:probably the Midas has only three roles
- refuel the AWACS orbiting on the border of NWFP-baluchistan belt , deep behind their frontal fighter bases
- help in the recovery phase of any special missions needed to attack places like karwar or goa from the sea
- if they use their F-16 in long loiter CAP mode


I think its about time the scenarios dhaga turned its attention to the Pakis so that we can explore all of their wet dreams like the one above with them. :mrgreen:

What say, Singha ji? 8)

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby jamwal » 01 Jan 2013 16:41

The link and that anal-ysis posted on that blog is just some dump of jerkoff material for the dimwit who maintains it. The owner of that blog is probably some 'high ranking general' poster of Deaf&Dumb forum. No need to waste time on such posts.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vivek_ahuja » 01 Jan 2013 17:09

jamwal wrote:The link and that anal-ysis posted on that blog is just some dump of jerkoff material for the dimwit who maintains it. The owner of that blog is probably some 'high ranking general' poster of Deaf&Dumb forum. No need to waste time on such posts.


So what I hear ju saying is that we should not give them the anal-ysis they so richly deserve? Did I hear ju correctly?

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Misraji » 01 Jan 2013 17:30

Singha wrote:probably the Midas has only three roles
- refuel the AWACS orbiting on the border of NWFP-baluchistan belt , deep behind their frontal fighter bases
- help in the recovery phase of any special missions needed to attack places like karwar or goa from the sea
- if they use their F-16 in long loiter CAP mode


One wonders how many F-16s they plan to defend their AWACS with, given the number of Su-30s IAF can put in the air in one go.
I daresay, every time IAF says "Boo", PAF will be scrambling everything to protect their ass-ets .... :mrgreen:

--Ashish

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Singha » 01 Jan 2013 19:36

one thought that struck me is perhaps we are all on wrong track about the Midas role. thats because we think in conventional warfighter terms.

think of what is the Midas assets:
- rough field capability and rugged (means it can land in austere bases in western baluchistan)
- four engines and can probably fly on two, hence reliable
- a lot of fuel around 40t, hence a very long range on its own.

the perfect platform for Paki VVIPs to become airborne and stage a tactical withdrawal on internal fuel to Urumqi or beyond over inner mongolia towards beijing :mrgreen: or directly to western KSA like madinah or to a some turkish base. it can also be used to evacuate the friends and family of elites who are themselves standing to in some underground bunker...and directly to london.

btw two or three removable fuel tanks are just placed inside the cargo hold of Midas on a semi-permanent basis
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/49/86/87/il78_010.jpg

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby shiv » 01 Jan 2013 20:42

Are you guys mad? . Where do you guys live? Pakistanis can now hit Kolkata and Assam. If you take the trouble to look at a map you will realize that Kolkata is the capital city of Paschim Pradesh, and Assam is a city in north Maharashtra. Both these cities come well within range on Il 78 refuelled Bundaars

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby vivek_ahuja » 02 Jan 2013 20:59

shiv wrote: Il 78 refuelled Bundaars


:rotfl:

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Jan 2013 21:08

the midas is probably an h&d mistake, agree with singha's (4!) scenarios for its usage. they will be kept well to the rear or risk losing them early

if they are on duty over strategicdepthistan and allow the awacs to fuel, dart across and dart back and sustain air time - gives them some fighting chance to manage or atleast be aware of iaf activities over their major military nodes

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby VikB » 02 Jan 2013 22:11

I have a hunch - PAF has proven to be smarter than PA (please indulge me) so in case of war which will surely be the handiwork of the PA, PAF will probably just look the other way! remember Kargil.
PAF certainly knows the difference between '71 and now. The sheer number of whips that IAF can use to flog them is mindblowing. At max PAF will be content at reminding the pilot in a Su30 that he cant drive (fly?) directly to Durrand line and would have to win the right by sending a few of their pilots to the promised 72.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby tsarkar » 02 Jan 2013 23:04

^^
Since when did JF-17 acquire MAR capability? I havent seen any with a refuelling probe.
Does it have a fixed probe or a retractable probe?
How does the probe affect flight capabilities (effect of drag on range/endurance/manoeuverability)?

Until someone specifies these details, JF-17 MAR is a Pakistani fantasy.

Only Pakistani Mirages have MAR capabilities via Il-78. Their F-7 lack plumbing. Interesting to see F-7 evolved JF-17 with MAR plumbing. F-16 use boom receptacles.

Wonder how will the Il-78s be used once Mirages retire.

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby Lalmohan » 02 Jan 2013 23:12

and the mirages are configured for naval strike IIRC? so that gives you a good clue as to where the midas will be operating - but to be of any real use they will have to come forward enough into areas where IN Air Defense cordons will be active backed up by iaf

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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Postby member_23370 » 03 Jan 2013 02:09

It was a H&D purchase pure and simple. It is easily nullified by R-33/37 or KS-172 missiles which would keep IL-78/Eyerie etc near baluchistan/waziristan region.

Google aunty throws this up
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/ide ... istan.html


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