Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jul 2013 09:40

Pakistan's Nuclear capable Hatf-V or Ghauri missile is a DUD

According to Japan Times, Pakistan's Hatf-V or Ghauri missile is a complete failure owing to faulty guidance system. According to the newspaper, a retired Pakistani nuclear scientist has claimed that former Pakistani leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf's 1999 military adventurism in the Kargil region of divided Kashmir failed in part because the North Korea-aided, nuclear-capable Ghauri missiles he wanted to deploy then had a faulty guidance system.

The Pakistani scientist said that during the Kargil crisis of May-July 1999, Musharraf, who was then army chief, “wanted to deploy Ghauri missiles, but air went out of his balloon when the top general in charge of the missile program told him the missile had a faulty guidance system.”

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Jul 2013 17:30

Austin wrote:Pakistan's Nuclear capable Hatf-V or Ghauri missile is a DUD

Well known fact. The below was what I posted in the TSP thread last year in a different context.

The Ghauri has an interesting history. Ms. Bhutto got the missile blueprints from North Korea in 1993 after just one single flight test by the North Koreans themselves. Even that flight was not for the full range and it is impossible that all technologies, parameters would have been tested. North Korea sold this as Scud-C to Iran. Later, North Koreans also helped Pakistan in mating their nuclear weapon to this missile. This was part of the deal for giving them AQ Khan's stolen technology plus some assistance. Flight tests by both Pakistan and Iran have had many failures of this missile. As a Pakistani analyst was saying, it is doubtful if TSP has been able to develop technology to separate the warhead (from the stage) and spin it up as well. The Pakistanis have been also trying to extend the range (Hatf-5A or Ghauri-2) to over 1500 Kms. The North Koreans have moved on, in the meanwhile, but the design that TSP possesses is c. 1993 vintage (as Ms. Bhutto herself acknowledged) and TSP has no capability to upgrade the technology. They are flogging a dead horse. This is the result of an unwise desire to match, or be even one-up, over India when all that Pakistan had was eight patents (at least until a few years back).

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 Jul 2013 19:08

Austin wrote:Pakistan's Nuclear capable Hatf-V or Ghauri missile is a DUD

According to Japan Times, Pakistan's Hatf-V or Ghauri missile is a complete failure owing to faulty guidance system. According to the newspaper, a retired Pakistani nuclear scientist has claimed that former Pakistani leader Gen. Pervez Musharraf's 1999 military adventurism in the Kargil region of divided Kashmir failed in part because the North Korea-aided, nuclear-capable Ghauri missiles he wanted to deploy then had a faulty guidance system.

The Pakistani scientist said that during the Kargil crisis of May-July 1999, Musharraf, who was then army chief, “wanted to deploy Ghauri missiles, but air went out of his balloon when the top general in charge of the missile program told him the missile had a faulty guidance system.”

Kyodo via Japan Times on the Ghauri aka Hatf V missile being a dud:

Faulty rockets played role in Kargil overreach: source

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2013 11:22

^^^ why this sudden Kujil about a Dud Pakee missile, is it yet another attempt by TSPs proxies about donating billions of $$$ of arms to TSPA to restore the strategic balance in Sooth Asia?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 16 Jul 2013 15:00

Did GoI know these facts during 2002 crisis? If yes, then why they did not publicize it? We also intercepted a North Korean ship with missile parts once ... did we gather any intel from it. I wonder if we will ever know ...

SSridhar wrote:
Austin wrote:Pakistan's Nuclear capable Hatf-V or Ghauri missile is a DUD
Well known fact. The below was what I posted in the TSP thread last year in a different context.
The Ghauri has an interesting history. Ms. Bhutto got the missile blueprints from North Korea in 1993 after just one single flight test by the North Koreans themselves. Even that flight was not for the full range and it is impossible that all technologies, parameters would have been tested. North Korea sold this as Scud-C to Iran. Later, North Koreans also helped Pakistan in mating their nuclear weapon to this missile. This was part of the deal for giving them AQ Khan's stolen technology plus some assistance. Flight tests by both Pakistan and Iran have had many failures of this missile. As a Pakistani analyst was saying, it is doubtful if TSP has been able to develop technology to separate the warhead (from the stage) and spin it up as well. The Pakistanis have been also trying to extend the range (Hatf-5A or Ghauri-2) to over 1500 Kms. The North Koreans have moved on, in the meanwhile, but the design that TSP possesses is c. 1993 vintage (as Ms. Bhutto herself acknowledged) and TSP has no capability to upgrade the technology. They are flogging a dead horse. This is the result of an unwise desire to match, or be even one-up, over India when all that Pakistan had was eight patents (at least until a few years back).

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 16 Jul 2013 16:11

The people known a lot, but whether they act on it or not only god knowns...we sure have the capability , like how we intercepted the tele convo between mush and another senior military officer regarding kargil war

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 30 Jul 2013 21:47

Pliss to note the aircraft model being used by the Paki commanduer for instructing nanha mujahids...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 30 Jul 2013 21:50

Another priceless pic:

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Sep 2013 04:04

China, Pakistan Pledge to Further Boost Their Defence Ties - Business Line

Bracing up to hold a 20-day joint exercise between their Air Forces, China and Pakistan today “pledged to further boost” the cooperation between the two militaries.

Vice Chairman of Central Military Commission Xu Qiliang met Pakistan’s chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee {which means nuclear weapon issues were discussed} Khalid Shameem Wynne and the two generals “pledged to further boost military cooperation between the two countries”, official media reported here today.

Xu said China and Pakistan are good neighbours, good friends, good partners and good brothers, and the practical military-to-military cooperation will not only benefit the two countries, but also help to safeguard peace and stability in the region, state-run Xinhua news agency reported.

Hailing the traditional friendship and the smooth development of the military ties between the two sides, Wynne said he looks forward to more exchanges and cooperation between the two militaries to address challenges with joint efforts.

Both Wynne and his Chinese counterpart Fang Fenghui co-chaired the 10th China-Pakistan defence and security consultation in Beijing held yesterday.

The meeting came ahead of the joint exercises by both Air Forces to be held from September 2 to 22 in China’s Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, bordering Pakistan Occupied Kashmir.

The drill, code-named “Shaheen (Eagle)-2,” will be held in Hetian Prefecture, China’s Defence Ministry said earlier.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 02 Sep 2013 14:13

What planes is that Commander using to instruct the nanha moojahids?

The lower plane appears to be a Mirage-3, the upper one ?

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 02 Sep 2013 15:28

Gagan wrote:What planes is that Commander using to instruct the nanha moojahids?

The lower plane appears to be a Mirage-3, the upper one ?

That looks like a Mig 27.

The artwork on the PC3 seems to be a desperate attempt to connect to an identity. Something they couldnt figure out since their independence. They have always been a nation with an identity crisis.
BTW it says "World's Youngest Orion" below the cockpit.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Sep 2013 21:15

I was inclined to say Tejas!!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 02 Sep 2013 22:20

Gagan wrote:What planes is that Commander using to instruct the nanha moojahids?

The lower plane appears to be a Mirage-3, the upper one ?

Must be a "saffron bandit"

Humour aside i think the instructor is using the model to designate an IAF or Afghan fighter, or even teaching tactics to defeat the Flogger specifically.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Sep 2013 00:06

PNS Jurrat (Jurrat class missile boat) has been equipped with a Turkish stabilized gun platform. 25 mm with EO sensors

Then:

Now:

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Sep 2013 16:52

Pakistan Showcases First Domestically Built Warship - The Hindu

Pakistan on Tuesday added its first domestically built warship to the naval fleet amid mounting border tensions with rival India, officials said.

The Aslat Frigate is capable of carrying both conventional and nuclear weapons, an official said.

“It can hit targets at the sea surface and in the air.” The ship was built by Pakistani naval engineers with technical assistance from China.

The official told DPA it was to counter Indian defence deals with the United States, France, Britain and other European countries.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif called the occasion “truly a historic day not only for the ship construction yards of the two countries but also for Pakistan and China.”

“The government is fully cognizant of the needs of Pakistan Navy and the maritime sector and I assure you that it will explore all avenues to enhance their capabilities,” Mr. Sharif said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Sep 2013 17:02

Pakistan says it has robust control system for nuclear arsenal - The Hindu

Pakistan on Tuesday reacted to a report on U.S. concerns about its nuclear arsenal by saying it has extensive protection measures and a robust control system for its atomic weapons that are aimed at maintaining stability in South Asia.

The remarks by Pakistan’s Foreign Office came in response to a report in The Washington Post that said the U.S. spends billions monitoring adversaries like Al Qaeda and Iran but has an “equally intense focus” on its “purported ally” Pakistan and has ramped up surveillance of its nuclear arms.

“Pakistan is fully committed to the objectives of disarmament and non-proliferation. As a nuclear weapons state, Pakistan’s policy is characterised by restraint and responsibility”, Foreign Office spokesman Aizaz Chaudhry said.

He further said Pakistan’s “nuclear deterrence capability is aimed at maintaining regional stability in South Asia”. Islamabad has established “extensive physical protection measures, robust command and control institutions under the chairmanship of the Prime Minister, comprehensive and effective export control regulatory regimes to ensure safety and security of nuclear installations and materials”, he said.

“We follow best international practices and standards set by the International Atomic Energy Agency”, Mr. Chaudhry said in a statement.

Pakistan is also fully engaged with the world community on nuclear safety and security issues. The efficacy of its strategic export controls have been acknowledged by experts from international export control regimes during interactions on various occasions, he said.

“The country is a party to both the Chemical Weapons Convention and Biological Weapons Convention and is fully implementing the two regimes”, Mr. Chaudhry said.

Citing a 178-page summary of the American intelligence community’s “black budget”, The Washington Post reported the U.S. had ramped up its surveillance of Pakistan’s nuclear arms and was concerned about its biological and chemical arms sites.

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Sep 2013 19:23

The Washington Post citing documents leaked by Edward Snowden is reporting that “Pakistani officers” plotted to kill Asma Jahangir during her visit to India:

In May 2012, U.S. intelligence agencies discovered evidence of Pakistani officers plotting to “eliminate” a prominent human rights activist, Asma Jahangir, according to the summary of a top-secret DIA report. Jahangir had been a leading public critic of the ISI for years.

The DIA report did not identify which officers were plotting to kill Jahangir, but it said the plan “included either tasking militants to kill her in India or tasking militants or criminals to kill her in Pakistan.”

The U.S. agency said it did not know whether the ISI had given approval for the plot to proceed. Although the report speculated that the ISI was motivated to kill Jahangir “to quiet public criticism of the military,” the DIA noted that such a plot “would result in international and domestic backlash as ISI is already under significant criticism for intimidation and extra-judicial killings.”

News of the alleged plot became public a few weeks later when Jahangir gave a round of interviews to journalists, revealing that she had learned that Pakistani intelligence officials had marked her for death. The plot was never carried out.

From here:

Top-secret U.S. intelligence files show new levels of distrust of Pakistan

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Sep 2013 19:35

China pledges eternal support for kept rent-boy Pak.Any pics of the frigate?

PNS Aslat’ a testament of Pak-China ever-lasting friendship:
KARACHI, Sep 3 (APP):

Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif on Tuesday said the construction of F-22P frigate ‘Aslat’ with China’s assistance was a testament of the everlasting bond of friendship between the two countries. The Prime Minister said Pakistan deeply valued the resolute Chinese support in all domains and expressed confidence that cooperation on defence would strengthen for improving peace and stability in the region.Addressing at the ceremony of commissioning of the country’s first indiginously-built frigate PNS Aslat at Karachi Shipyard here, the Prime Minister said Pakistan’s foreign relations with China form a pillar of Pakistan’s foreign policy. He said Pakistan’s strategic location could be only exploited to its advantage through development of maritime sector and a capable navy. He said Pakistan Navy was effectively defending and acting as a source of security for international trade plying off the country’s coast.
The Prime Minister expressed satisfaction that the construction of Aslat frigate was completed within the contractual timeline.
He said bringing all four frigates into service within eight years was a remarkable achievement for a programme of this complexity and scale.
He commended the dedicated workers, engineers, technicians of Karachi and Hudong shipyards for their hard work, professionalism and dedication.
He appreciated the contribution of Ministry of Defence Production and Project Directorate at Naval Headquarters, who worked purposefully to make this programme a success.
He thanked the team of China Shipbuilding Trading Company for their support and particularly Wang Dieje, Assistant President of China Shipbuilding Trading Company for his dedication and expert handling of the construction of fourth frigate in Pakistan. Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif said the government was fully cognizant of the needs of Pakistan Navy and the maritime sector and assured that the government would explore all avenues to enhance their capabilities.
He said that Pakistan and China share a close and time-tested relationship stretching back to the 1950s. He said Pakistan viewed its relationship with China as enduring, multidimensional and deep rooted.
He mentioned former Chinese president Hu Jintao who described the Pak-China friendship as “higher than the highest mountains and deeper than the deepest oceans”.
The Prime Minister said that Pakistan was located at the crossroads of major civilizations and trade routes, and its geo-strategic and geo-economic importance in the present times demanded concerted efforts with regards to regional and global security.
“We are, therefore, engaged and are contributing effectively to fight the forces that are out to destabilize and destroy international order,” he said.
He appreciated the efforts of Pakistan navy in safeguarding Arabian Sea - the conduit for vital shipping lanes that are jugular veins of global economy.
He said Pakistan Navy’s efforts in combating international terrorism and piracy despite limited number of ships were commendable.
Nawaz Sharif said warships are nothing more than just a metal structure, but it is their crew that gives them heart and soul.
He asked the commissioning crew at the ship to ensure excellence and uphold these standards for others to emulate.
The Prime Minister acknowledged Chinese cooperation in development of Gwadar Deep Water Port which he said has strengthened the maritime infrastructure in Pakistan and opened new vistas of economic growth and prosperity in Baluchistan.
He expressed hope that the port would become a major game changer vis-…-vis the trade and the economy of the region when rail and road routes from Makran coast to the Western region of China through Khunjrab are developed.
Naval Chief Admiral Muhammad in his welcome speech said Pakistan’s defence policy was based on peaceful co-existence with other states. He said the country had no aggressive designs against any other country.
He said that Pakistan Navy was fully prepared to safeguard the country’s maritime interests.
He said the commissioning of indiginously-built PNS Aslat was a commitment of Pakistan Navy to augment its capabilities through self-reliance.
The Naval Chief presented a memento of PNS Aslat to the Prime Minister.
Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan, Minister for Defence Production Rana Tanveer Husain and Governor Sindh Dr Ishratul Ibad were present.
Earlier, the Prime Minister reviewed the guard of honour. A contingent of Pakistan Navy presented salute to him.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 03 Sep 2013 19:48

Any pics of the frigate?

Philip ji, pl click on the image for high res.
F-22P PNS Aslat Frigate Launched for the Pakistan Navy

I wish we can arm Uighurs or Tibetans or anyone (could be even Chinese street dogs) who wants to take on China from within or outside.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Sep 2013 20:32

venug wrote:
Any pics of the frigate?
Philip ji, pl click on the image for high res.
F-22P PNS Aslat Frigate Launched for the Pakistan Navy
.

Thats PNS Zulfiqar - lead ship of this class.

F-22P is an inexpensive but multirole platform. In that sense a useful addition to PN. It remains to be seen if they will build more.

SShah · Post by **SShah** » 03 Sep 2013 20:42

This'd certainly be a mouthwatering target for the air launched Brahmos.. Rambha pilots must be salivating already..

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 04 Sep 2013 01:36

It's a juicy target indeed , its self defence SAM's are quite limited in range and I don't see any significant Chinese upgrades on the anvil which could protect it from a Air launched Brahmos.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 05 Sep 2013 04:22

Al-Qaeda engineers in Pak developing system to counter drones

Pakistan-based al-Qaeda engineers are making several efforts including developing a laser warning system and shoulder-fired missiles to counter American drones, according to a report.

Al-Qaeda leadership is still active inside Pakistan and it has been seriously working to develop counter measures to the successful drones of the US, The Washington Post reported on Wednesay, citing classified documents it received from former CIA contractor Edward Snowden, who leaked some of America's most closely guarded secrets.

According to The Post, these classified documents indicate a growing sense of unease among US agencies about al-Qaeda's determination to find a way to neutralize drones.

"Al-Qaeda Engineers in Pakistan continue development of laser-warning systems in effort to counter UAV strikes," read the headline of one classified report in 2011, referring to the military acronym for unmanned aerial vehicles.
:
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:

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Sep 2013 05:30

Al Qaida my foot.

An alibi is being created to protect the Pak Fauj from reprucussion from a future misadventure.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 05 Sep 2013 08:42

With information that LeT is setting up training centers in Kunar province of Afganistan and also the Haqqani network targeting the Indian embassies there, why don't we send in the drones aganist them. The Abhyas HEAT drone has a ferry range of 500km which can easily travel from Indian Punjab, J&K areas into North west Afg overflying Paki territory. Let the Pakis scramble their F-16s as many times as they want, a drone shot down if at all or even just trying to shoot down will expend their Amraams. The above article states that the manpads weren't able to target the American drones not withstanding the theory of expired batteries on Talibani or Paki non state actor fired Stingers

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Sep 2013 09:50

Pakistan to develop 'full spectrum' of nuclear deterrence - Dawn

The National Command Authority (NCA) decided on Thursday to further develop the country’s nuclear weapons programme for preserving “full spectrum deterrence” against any possible external aggression.

The decision was taken at a meeting of the National Command Authority — the principal policy making body on the research, development, production, use and security of the nuclear programme. The meeting was presided over by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

This was Mr Sharif’s first session on the nuclear policy after returning to the prime minister’s office in June for a third term. The prime minister had in his second tenure rejected all international pressure and conducted nuclear tests in 1998 in response to Indian nuclear tests.

Volatile regional security situation and discriminatory policies within the non-proliferation regime were the determining factors in Pakistan’s decision on further strengthening its nuclear programme even though the country is facing a severe economic crisis and had only a day earlier got a $6.64 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to keep its economy afloat.

“Pakistan would not remain oblivious to evolving security dynamics in South Asia and would maintain a full spectrum deterrence capability to deter all forms of aggression,” a statement issued after the meeting said {This is a clear indication of the completion of the triad soon with Chinese help, of course} . It also described the nuclear programme as central to the defence of the country.

Further development of the nuclear programme implies that the perceived gaps in the programme would be plugged. The country has already been pursuing this track and has developed short-range and low-yield tactical weapons in response to India’s cold start doctrine.

Widening conventional arms disparity with India, which is driven among other factors by country’s fast deteriorating economy, pushed Islamabad to lower its nuclear threshold.

Introduction of new delivery systems — short-range missile NASR and air-launched cruise missile Raad; miniaturisation of war heads; are some of the clear pointers towards Pakistan’s increased focus on developing its nuclear programme.

However, while taking the categorical decision of continuing with the development of the programme, which always raises alarm bells in the West, the NCA reiterated commitment to being a responsible nuclear state, avoiding arms race, remaining engaged with the Nuclear Security Summit process and playing its part in the global non-proliferation regime. Moreover, the offer of sharing its expertise under IAEA safeguards and training personnel on nuclear security were renewed.

Criticising discriminatory trends in non-proliferation regime, particularly the expected entry of India into export control regimes, the NCA said such moves could imperil Pakistan’s national security, besides adversely affecting the global non-proliferation initiatives.

Pakistani strategists fear that India’s entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) through a country-specific exception would lead to it being denied high technology even for peaceful purposes.

The NCA reminded that Pakistan possessed all credentials for qualifying for access to civilian nuclear technology and becoming a member of the multilateral export control regimes including NSG on non-discriminatory basis.{I believe that it is only a matter of time for these things to happen. These issues are being raked up now which is an aopportune time for Pakistan to extract concessions from the US}

Restating the country’s opposition to Fissile Material (Cut-Off) Treaty, the NCA said Pakistan would remain opposed to any arms control arrangement that is detrimental to its security and strategic interests.

Pakistan has since 2009 opposed start of talks on FMCT at the Conference on Disarmament. Islamabad’s position has been that it would sign Fissile Material Treaty if the countries with fissile material reduce their stocks to a proportional level before setting the cut-off date instead of agreeing on existing stock levels which put the country in a disadvantageous position.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Sep 2013 09:51

Pakistan to develop 'full spectrum' of nuclear deterrence - Dawn

The National Command Authority (NCA) decided on Thursday to further develop the country’s nuclear weapons programme for preserving “full spectrum deterrence” against any possible external aggression.

The decision was taken at a meeting of the National Command Authority — the principal policy making body on the research, development, production, use and security of the nuclear programme. The meeting was presided over by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

This was Mr Sharif’s first session on the nuclear policy after returning to the prime minister’s office in June for a third term. The prime minister had in his second tenure rejected all international pressure and conducted nuclear tests in 1998 in response to Indian nuclear tests.

Volatile regional security situation and discriminatory policies within the non-proliferation regime were the determining factors in Pakistan’s decision on further strengthening its nuclear programme even though the country is facing a severe economic crisis and had only a day earlier got a $6.64 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to keep its economy afloat.

“Pakistan would not remain oblivious to evolving security dynamics in South Asia and would maintain a full spectrum deterrence capability to deter all forms of aggression,” a statement issued after the meeting said {This is a clear indication of the completion of the triad soon with Chinese help, of course} . It also described the nuclear programme as central to the defence of the country.

Further development of the nuclear programme implies that the perceived gaps in the programme would be plugged. The country has already been pursuing this track and has developed short-range and low-yield tactical weapons in response to India’s cold start doctrine.

Widening conventional arms disparity with India, which is driven among other factors by country’s fast deteriorating economy, pushed Islamabad to lower its nuclear threshold.

Introduction of new delivery systems — short-range missile NASR and air-launched cruise missile Raad; miniaturisation of war heads; are some of the clear pointers towards Pakistan’s increased focus on developing its nuclear programme.

However, while taking the categorical decision of continuing with the development of the programme, which always raises alarm bells in the West, the NCA reiterated commitment to being a responsible nuclear state, avoiding arms race, remaining engaged with the Nuclear Security Summit process and playing its part in the global non-proliferation regime. Moreover, the offer of sharing its expertise under IAEA safeguards and training personnel on nuclear security were renewed.

Criticising discriminatory trends in non-proliferation regime, particularly the expected entry of India into export control regimes, the NCA said such moves could imperil Pakistan’s national security, besides adversely affecting the global non-proliferation initiatives.

Pakistani strategists fear that India’s entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) through a country-specific exception would lead to it being denied high technology even for peaceful purposes.

The NCA reminded that Pakistan possessed all credentials for qualifying for access to civilian nuclear technology and becoming a member of the multilateral export control regimes including NSG on non-discriminatory basis.{I believe that it is only a matter of time for these things to happen. These issues are being raked up now which is an opportune time for Pakistan to extract concessions from the US}

Restating the country’s opposition to Fissile Material (Cut-Off) Treaty, the NCA said Pakistan would remain opposed to any arms control arrangement that is detrimental to its security and strategic interests.

Pakistan has since 2009 opposed start of talks on FMCT at the Conference on Disarmament. Islamabad’s position has been that it would sign Fissile Material Treaty if the countries with fissile material reduce their stocks to a proportional level before setting the cut-off date instead of agreeing on existing stock levels which put the country in a disadvantageous position.

arun · Post by **arun** » 15 Sep 2013 17:29

r_subramanian wrote:3 Pak army officers including a Major General killed in an IED blast
Three army officers were killed, while two sustained injuries in an improvised explosive device (IED) blast in Upper Dir on Sunday, Express News reported.
According to the ISPR, Major General Sanaullah, Lieutenant Colonel Tauseef and Sepoy Imran were killed when the device planted on a road exploded.
...
link: http://tribune.com.pk/story/604596/3-ar ... ied-blast/

Hmmm ……………. Green on Green Intra Mohammadden violence sees un-uniformed Jihadi’s kill the uniformed Jihadi’s of the Pakistan Army in a demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan.

Does this accord with the “Jihad in the way of Allah” part of the motto of the Pakistan Army of “Faith, Piety, Jihad in the path of Allah” or in Urdu “ Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fi Sabilillah”.

Meanwhile article from the Government of Pakistan’s mouth piece, APP:

IED blast kills Major General, Lt.Col in Dir Upper District

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Sep 2013 13:34

I think we have to divide Pakis into:-

Faded Green- non Sunni Muslims Citizens
Light Green-Sunni Muslim Citizens
Green-Army
Dark Green-Taliban
Black Green -Arab Taliban
Pink- Politicians

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 16 Sep 2013 13:45

<OT>
^Greenish ness is in the eyes of believer in Bakistan..
Hafiz Sayeed will be like exposed meat pink if some one shows him to Mehsuds.
</OT>

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Sep 2013 12:44

Good piece on the PN's future options.More Sinification.

http://www.defencereviewasia.com/articl ... val-Future

Pakistan

Pakistan’s Naval Future

Byline: Mark Farrer / Canberra

The Pakistan Navy (PN) faces a future with narrowing options and prospects, just as the country finds itself being moved closer into the Chinese orbit by the developing strategic shape of central, north and south Asia.

Any nation’s military capability depends on its economy. The economy of Pakistan is in a poor and deteriorating condition. Historically (1951/52 until 2011/12), the average economic growth was 5%, varying from -1.8% to +10.2%. The country has not emulated the remarkable and steady development of the rest of Asia - a development which has lifted hundreds of millions from poverty and led to industrialisation, integration into the global economy and a brighter future for hundreds of millions. Pakistan remains one of the poorest countries in the region, with a semi-industrialised economy that is not doing well. Literacy is low, the education system is poor, and aid, agriculture and remittances remain central to the economy. Worse, GDP growth is outstripped by population growth, meaning that per capita income is actually falling. Much of the foreign aid vanishes into corrupt governance practises and rare is the foreign investor willing to risk capital in a country with locally mutable laws and deeply ingrained corruption. On top of this is the rising influence of Islamists in the country, which more closely resembles a collection of city-states and warlord-dominated hinterlands than a Westphalian nation-state.

For a continental state in such an environment, the army must have first call on resources for national security, followed by the air force, with the navy a definite last. This ‘last for funding priority’ position is exacerbated by the demands naval forces place on highly educated, skilled manpower - something Pakistan is very short of. The traditional source of naval support has been the UK and USA: both have supplied second-hand warships for low prices in the past. Now there is a marked reluctance to do so. Consequentially, the upgrade of the Pakistan Navy is in grave doubt, and the already-wide gap between the PN and the Indian Navy - against whom it measures itself - is set to widen dramatically. The economy of Pakistan cannot provide the resources to maintain, let alone much expand, the PN.

The PN is a significant force for a nation with only a few hundred miles of shoreline, its major units being 11 frigates (four Chinese-designed F-22P Zulfiquar class, six obsolescent ex-RN Type 21 class and a Oliver Hazard Perry class lacking its helicopter and SAM system) and five submarines (two elderly Agosta class and three Agosta 90-B). The problem with these major units is that the six Type 21 class and two Agosta class are obsolescent at best. Worse, the combat systems of the Type 21 are particularly dated and suffer serious reliability issues. The PN has been arguing in Islamabad for the purchase of four to seven ex-USN Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates or for the purchase of the four Batch 3 Type 42 class destroyers the RN is disposing of.

It is not likely to get either.

There is very little chance in current circumstances of the USA agreeing to the PN acquisition of any of the Perry class it is retiring during 2013-14. The six scheduled to be retired in fiscal year 2013 have been offered for foreign disposal. Taiwan is the most serious contender, as it wishes to replace all eight of its ex-USN Knox class ASW frigates. The Oliver Hazard Perry class is particularly suited to Taiwan, having a good ASW capability and an AAW capability the Knox class lacks can easily be added to them. This class is in some demand, with both Mexico and Thailand also discussing acquisition of ex-USN vessels with Washington. In view of this and the issues the USA (and indeed the UK) are experiencing with Pakistan it is not likely that a PN request for ex-USN frigates will be favourable received. The UK is somewhat more likely to sell the PN the four Batch 3 Type 42 class but the relevant word is sell, and Islamabad has little money to devote to such a project.

In addition, India is a significant market for British military equipment and the British are well aware of hostile Indian views on the sale of warships with even semi-modern capabilities to the PN - a navy entirely lacking an area defence SAM capability. The Chinese FM-90 system fitted to the Zulfiqar class is at best a point defence system and is relatively incapable against modern SSM. PNS Alamgir, the PN’s sole Perry class, is not fitted with the Mk 13/Standard SAM system she was built with. It was removed from USN service in 2004, four years before she was transferred. It is unlikely that London would be willing to risk future sales to India, which has a rapidly expanding economy and which is getting wealthier even in per capita terms in order to sell four Type 42 class destroyers to the PN.

Essentially, the only realistic, affordable source of new frigates is China. Analysis of past announcements by the PN indicates that their preferred order of battle is six to eight Perry class complete with a SAM system for at least point defence, the four existing Zulfiqar class (F-22P) and four Type 54A (Jiangkai II) complete with its 32-cell HQ-16 VLS system. This missile is a joint People's Republic of China – Russian upgrade of the Russian Navy’s 9K37M1-2 'Shtil' (NATO SA-N-12). This is an area-defence SAM system of good capability - yet even the Chinese want some money on the table.

There is little doubt that the Chinese will sell the additional four F-22P (Zulfiqar) class ships Pakistan is widely reported to have ordered in late 2012, yet purchasing these might well make financing any possible deal for AAW-capable Type 54A class ships unaffordable even at ‘political influence’ prices. It is certain that China would use such a deal to continue the process of enmeshing Pakistan in their area of influence and in their effort to keep India encircled – and they cannot be ‘blamed’ for this. China faces a problem it has never before experienced in its history in that it is now economically dependent on imported energy: China is now dependent on maritime trade. This has never occurred before. A Chinese ally using Chinese equipment, under significant Chinese influence and located in the mouth of the Gulf of Oman is obviously in their interest. Much of China’s oil now comes from the Persian Gulf. However, there is little evidence to support the persistent low-reliability reports that the Chinese plan to build, acquire or use a naval base in Pakistan.

So while the Type-54A would be a good match for the PN’s area air defence requirements such an acquisition might indicate more than a simple purchase. Indeed, any PN acquisition of Chinese-built warships would well repay close examination of its financial terms. Generous financial terms from China would be evidence of Chinese strategic policy towards protection of their now-essential trade routes. The obvious trade-off inside the ‘significant changes and upgrades’ the PN has requested for the four-ship order is to upgrade from FM-90 to HQ-16 VLS as fitted to the Type 54A. It has to be stressed that at time of writing there was no confirmation of this part of the requested upgrade package, although it is confirmed that Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) will be building two of the new ships. KSEW is also building three Azmat class fast attack craft, the first of class having been built in China at Xingang Shipyard. The ships are a 560 ton fast attack with C-802A surface-to-surface missiles. The vessels are 60 metres long, have a range of 1 000 nautical miles and a top speed of 30 knots. They are a cheap and reasonably modern missile craft although their SSM fit cannot be regarded as particularly effective.

When China Shipbuilding Trading Corporation (CSTC) secured the four-ship, improved F-22P Zulfiquar class order, no details were released regarding the nature of the changes the PN required for the type. What was announced was that the changes requested had been accepted, and that “A spokesman for CSTC was unable to say if the eight FM-90 SAMs (based on French ‘Crotale’ copies) would be replaced by a larger number of more capable missiles housed in a VLS….” It would be premature to come to any conclusion that HQ-16 might be fitted to these four ships, but the possibility of it should be carefully noted.

The PN is also in dire need of new submarines. The two Agosta 70 cannot be considered operational even though they are still reported to operate in local waters. These are believed to be training activities. The three Agosta-90B are a modern and capable platform, yet once again a replacement program should be well under way by now. There are few signs that one is since the end of the 2011 talks concerning Pakistan’s negotiations for a deal for six Chinese-built submarines. The PN has been actively canvassing other builders since 2011, but the problem once again is money. Once again the only realistic option is China, which currently has two modern submarine designs in production or available. These are the 4,000-ton (submerged) Type-041 Yuan class, and a smaller design, the 2,300-ton (submerged) S-20. Both can be fitted with an AIP module. The constant speculation regarding the PN acquiring Chinese SSN remains merely that, there is no evidence even of a Chinese willingness to discuss such a matter, and the PN’s ability to operate an SSN is assessed to be low. They will be doing well to maintain extant numbers of capable submarines (three) over the longer term.

Of deeper concern is the steady Sinification of the PN. It is altering from a western-oriented force with older but capable ex-RN and ex-USN types, to a Chinese ‘satellite’ Navy, with a gradual decrease in non-Chinese influences being noteworthy. This is certainly in China’s strategic interest, yet it is not necessarily against western interests either. China now has a valid strategic requirement for a local partner of some sort – at the very least they will continue to shoulder an increasing burden of traditional ‘maritime constabulary’ functions: anti-piracy being just the most obvious. And this is driven not by Chinese expansionism into the Indian Ocean, but by their new strategic reality – that’s where a lot of their energy imports come from. The ‘interesting twist’ in this strategic alteration is the tension between China and Pakistan on one hand and India on the other. In that equation several factors are still to come fully to flower. First among these are the implications of the new US Air-Sea Battle doctrine and the so-called (and almost certainly hollow, given his rundown of the US military) Obama policy of the ‘Asia Pivot’. What is certain is that a slow strategic change which began twenty years ago is starting to now influence day-to-day operational and strategic realities in the northern Indian Ocean.

PS:Tx. Venu.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Sep 2013 14:06

^ The PN of today is probably the largest ever in their history. Air wing also seems to be doing fine with the new ATRs, P-3s and Z-9 helicopters.

Their best bet to offset imminent retirements is to build more F-22P and Aslat class FACM at Karachi. Additionally, a stripped down Aslat will be a better bet to replace old PMSA assets.

AAW systems should be avoided for cost concerns as in any case the available systems cannot defeat Brahmos. Urans - fired from Surface or Air - are an easier target and may be defeated by CWiz.

The article unfortunately does not answer what are the upgrades being done in Turkey to PNS Alamgir.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Sep 2013 06:56

New island off the Paki coast near Gwadar after the earthquake.Could resettle more Chinese there what?!

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/20 ... 74408.html

New Island Forms Near Coast After 7.8 Earthquake Hits Pakistan
Tuesday, September 24, 2013

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Sep 2013 08:30

^^^^^

We could have a sub lurking behind it to monitor/attack ships coming out of Gwadar.

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 25 Sep 2013 08:57

There used to be a guy on this forum
Who long back said this about TSP missiles

1) ETA is known but direction unknown

2) all TSP missiles are true FF fire and forget but the crew is always required to shout AoA and run from the scene because of grabity

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 Sep 2013 10:28

But they are all made by China. So some other may work for a short time.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Sep 2013 17:29

Philip wrote:New island off the Paki coast near Gwadar after the earthquake.Could resettle more Chinese there what?!

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/20 ... 74408.html

New Island Forms Near Coast After 7.8 Earthquake Hits Pakistan
Tuesday, September 24, 2013

Aunty Wiki says:

In Pakistan there are more than 80 active mud volcanoes in Balochistan province; there are about 10 locations having clusters of mud volcanoes. In the west, in Gwadar District, the mud volcanoes are very small and mostly sit in the south of Jabal-e-Mehdi toward Sur Bandar. Many more exist in the north-east of Ormara. The remainder are in Lasbela District and are scattered between south of Gorangatti on Koh Hinglaj to Koh Kuk in the North of Miani Hor in the Hangol Valley. In this region, the heights of mud volcanoes range between 800 to 1,550 feet (243.8 to 472.4 m).[citation needed] The most famous is Chandaragup. The biggest crater found at 25°33'13.63"N. 65°44'09.66"E is about 450 feet (137.16 m) in diameter. Most mud volcanoes in this region are situated in out-of-reach areas having very difficult terrain. Dormant mud volcanoes stand like columns of mud in many other areas.[citation needed]

Unfortunately for Pakistan this island may be temporary. Remember the New Moore island case ... b/w India and Pakistan

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Oct 2013 09:31

Turkey to offer T-129 gunships to Pakistan with an offer for a gift of 3 T-129s with related spares and a helicopter assembly plant for assembling T-129s in Pakistan..the US is countering the offer with AH-1Z Vipers financed by Foreign Military Financing for Pakistan..while we spend our own money to buy AH-64s..

Turkey pushes T-129 deal with Pakistan

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 01 Oct 2013 19:29

Turkey needs cost sharing to fund development, that Pakistan does not have.

Pakistan did not even place orders for Yonca Onuk boats beyond the two ordered.

Saudi, Qatar, Oman, UAE, et al even Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria do not buy Turkish license manufactured stuff.

FWIW, Turkey offered OFB license manufacture of MKEK T-40 UBGL http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/tav ... ces-03080/

Pakistan did not have money to buy HDW or DCN or even Russian submarines. There is a limit to friendship Chinese stuff.

No one buys any Bell Textron products other than US Marine Corps. They're desperate to sell, but even then, they wanted hard cash from Pakistan.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Oct 2013 07:41

has pakistan purchased the 52cal 155mm towed guns it was claiming to get from turkey?

they already have purchased a 155mm ammo factory from south korea. this I assume produces shells for their M109 fleet now and future 155mm guns.